Sly Wren Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 How Sansa Takes Winterfell with a Winged Knight: Swapping a Hound for her own Little Bird VERY SHORT VERSION: Sansa doesn’t recognize her full power with Lady—and loses Lady too soon. She doesn’t recognize her power over the Hound and doesn’t trust him enough to go with him. But with Sweetrobin, Sansa asserts power over her own “little bird.” She’s moving past waiting for knights to save her. Instead, she’s making her own “knight” to do her will. She has everything she needs to assert her power over Sweetrobin, utilize the leverage and information that Baelish has given her, and take the Vale army north to save “Arya” and retake Winterfell. NOTE: The idea that Sansa’s influence over these “men” is tied to her warging abilities has been floated by others long before me. I only add to those ideas my theory: though Sansa fails to use the Hound to get home, she will eventually succeed with Sweetrobin. 1. As many have noted, Sansa’s influence over Lady is clear from her first POV chapter in Game. Lady protects and warns Sansa from the start. As do all Stark pups for their kids. Lady is the gentlest direwolf pup under Sansa’s influence, even eating daintily, as Sansa does. Sansa’s warg influence is enormous from the start, same as her siblings with their wolves. "I've never seen an aurochs," Sansa said, feeding a piece of bacon to Lady under the table. The direwolf took it from her hand, as delicate as a queen. Game, Sansa I Sansa loses Lady much too soon. As many have noted before me, Sansa’s a powerful warg without her wolf. But she’s not without power. She still holds sway over unruly “men” nicknamed for animals: The Hound and Sweetrobin. 2. Sansa has two bedroom scenes with difficult “men” nicknamed for animals: at the Blackwater with the Hound and at the Eyrie with Sweetrobin. Both scenes show her influence. Sansa’s too afraid of the Hound to see her power—she dreams of having someone else take control. But she’s starting to recognize her influence with Sweetrobin—and she takes control of him. Both scenes begin in a darkened room where Sansa goes to the window and pulls back the curtain in both scenes. In both scenes, Sansa sees danger at the window. At the Blackwater, Sansa sees the battle and the threatening, green, false dawn of wildfire. At the Eyrie, Sansa sees the pale, true dawn, revealing the threat of an Eyrie “wrapped in an icy mantle, the Giant's Lance above buried in waist-deep snows.” Feast, Alayne II At the Blackwater, the Hound terrifies Sansa—he’s filthy—a soiled Kingsguard—and waiting in her bed. Outside, a swirling lance of jade light spit at the stars, filling the room with green glare. She saw him for a moment, all black and green, the blood on his face dark as tar, his eyes glowing like a dog's in the sudden glare. Then the light faded and he was only a hulking darkness in a stained white cloak. Clash, Sansa VII At the Eyrie, Robin wants Sansa to come to his bed. He repulses her somewhat, but here, Sansa controls her repulsion better than her fear of the Hound. When she turned back, Robert Arryn was propped up against the pillows looking at her. The Lord of the Eyrie and Defender of the Vale. A woolen blanket covered him below the waist. Above it he was naked, a pasty boy with hair as long as any girl's. Robert had spindly arms and legs, a soft concave chest and little belly, and eyes that were always red and runny. He cannot help the way he is. He was born small and sickly. "You look very strong this morning, my lord." He loved to be told how strong he was. Feast, Alayne II At the Blackwater, the Hound keeps calling Sansa “little bird.” Sansa is too terrified to understand the Hound “with the sky aswirl with fire.” She tells him to let her go. Before the Hound grabs her, she’s resigned to let others decide her fate—she’s giving up control. And hoping to see Lady when she dies. When she thinks of Lady, the Hound grabs her—taking some control of Sansa. Sansa backed away from the window, retreating toward the safety of her bed. I'll go to sleep, she told herself, and when I wake it will be a new day, and the sky will be blue again. The fighting will be done and someone will tell me whether I'm to live or die. "Lady," she whimpered softly, wondering if she would meet her wolf again when she was dead. Then something stirred behind her, and a hand reached out of the dark and grabbed her wrist. Clash, Sansa VII At the Eyrie, Sansa calls Robert “My Sweetrobin”—her little bird. She gets around his objections so he will face his fear and leave. Unlike the Blackwater, she won’t let others decide her fate: She’s calm and takes control to get Robin out of the Eyrie. He is afraid, she thought, and with good reason. Since his lady mother had fallen, the boy would not even stand upon a balcony, and the way from the Eyrie to the Gates of the Moon was perilous enough to daunt anyone. Alayne's heart had been in her throat when she made her own ascent with Lady Lysa and Lord Petyr, and everyone agreed that the descent was even more harrowing, since you were looking down the whole time. Mya could tell of great lords and bold knights who had gone pale and wet their smallclothes on the mountain. And none of them had the shaking sickness either. Still, it would not serve. On the valley floor autumn still lingered, warm and golden, but winter had closed around the mountain peaks. They had weathered three snowstorms, and an ice storm that transformed the castle into crystal for a fortnight. The Eyrie might be impregnable, but it would soon be inaccessible as well, and the way down grew more hazardous every day. Most of the castle's servants and soldiers had already made the descent. Only a dozen still lingered up here, to attend Lord Robert. Feast, Alayne II At the Blackwater, Sansa manages to calm the Hound with her song and her touch, showing she has some influence over him. But she does not trust him enough to go with him—after all, he does put a knife to her throat. In the Eyrie, Sansa calms Sweetrobin with flattery and promises of the same cakes Sansa loves. Sweetrobin is the little bird now—and he’s her bird. Will they be lemon cakes?" Lord Robert loved lemon cakes, perhaps because Alayne did. Feast, Alayne II For another take on Sansa’s influence over Sweetrobin: @Victarion Chainbreaker 's http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/96588-sansa-the-warg/ 3. Sansa connects the two scenes in her head, just in case readers miss it. She calms the Hound with song and Robin with promises of stories. Both respond to her touch. And in Sansa’s imagination, both grab and kiss her against her will. Neither kiss is pleasant—for a “good” kiss, she must fantasize about Loras. Before she could summon the servants, however, Sweetrobin threw his skinny arms around her and kissed her. It was a little boy's kiss, and clumsy. Everything Robert Arryn did was clumsy. If I close my eyes I can pretend he is the Knight of Flowers. Ser Loras had given Sansa Stark a red rose once, but he had never kissed her . . . and no Tyrell would ever kiss Alayne Stone. Pretty as she was, she had been born on the wrong side of the blanket. As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak. It made no matter. That day was done, and so was Sansa. Feast, Alayne II CONTINUED IN ONE MORE POST Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted January 14, 2017 Author Share Posted January 14, 2017 4. The Hound’s kiss didn’t happen. But ultimately, in Sansa’s mind, both Hound and Robin take from her against her will and leave her with nothing. "I could keep you safe," he rasped. "They're all afraid of me. No one would hurt you again, or I'd kill them." He yanked her closer, and for a moment she thought he meant to kiss her. He was too strong to fight. She closed her eyes, wanting it to be over, but nothing happened. "Still can't bear to look, can you?" she heard him say. He gave her arm a hard wrench, pulling her around and shoving her down onto the bed. "I'll have that song. Florian and Jonquil, you said." His dagger was out, poised at her throat. "Sing, little bird. Sing for your little life." Clash, Sansa VII 5. With the Hound, Sansa hopes for someone to save her. The Hound sometimes acts more like a knight around Sansa. But despite her obvious influence/power over him, she fears him. She didn't know what he meant. She couldn't sing for him now, here, with the sky aswirl with fire and men dying in their hundreds and their thousands. "I can't," she said. "Let me go, you're scaring me." “Everything scares you. Look at me. Look at me." The blood masked the worst of his scars, but his eyes were white and wide and terrifying. The burnt corner of his mouth twitched and twitched again. Sansa could smell him; a stink of sweat and sour wine and stale vomit, and over it all the reek of blood, blood, blood. Clash, Sansa VII Some instinct made her lift her hand and cup his cheek with her fingers. The room was too dark for her to see him, but she could feel the stickiness of the blood, and a wetness that was not blood. "Little bird," he said once more, his voice raw and harsh as steel on stone. Then he rose from the bed. Sansa heard cloth ripping, followed by the softer sound of retreating footsteps. Clash, Sansa VII 6. With Robin, Sansa doesn’t look for a savior. She “makes” one. Sansa makes Robin into her Winged Knight by pretending he’s her protector. Thus making it easy for her to manipulate him—a “knight” that Sansa controls. When the Hound comes, Sansa is thinking of Lady—the wolf she influenced. Now, she has uncanny influence over Robert Arryn, Lord of the Vale. Sansa takes control of him makes Robin brave-ish. She makes him feel like her protector vs. clinging to a protector herself. "My lord is brave," Alayne said, when she felt him shaking. "I'm so frightened I can hardly talk, but not you." She felt him nod. "The Winged Knight was brave, and so am I," he boasted to her bodice. "I'm an Arryn." "Will my Sweetrobin hold me tight?" she asked, though he was already holding her so tightly that she could scarcely breathe. "If you like," he whispered. And clinging hard to one another, they continued on straight down to Sky. Feast, Alayne II Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. "Sweetrobin," she said, "I'm scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you're not afraid." He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. "I'm not?" "Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin." "The Winged Knight could fly," Robert whispered. "Higher than the mountains." She gave his hand a squeeze. Feast, Alayne II 7. And what does Sansa want with a potential knight she can easily control? To go home. Instead of waiting passively for a savior, she can make her knight and remake Winterfell on her own. What do I want with snowballs? She looked at her sad little arsenal. There's no one to throw them at. She let the one she was making drop from her hand. I could build a snow knight instead, she thought. Or even . . . She pushed two of her snowballs together, added a third, packed more snow in around them, and patted the whole thing into the shape of a cylinder. When it was done, she stood it on end and used the tip of her little finger to poke holes in it for windows. The crenellations around the top took a little more care, but when they were done she had a tower. I need some walls now, Sansa thought, and then a keep. She set to work. The snow fell and the castle rose. Two walls ankle-high, the inner taller than the outer. Towers and turrets, keeps and stairs, a round kitchen, a square armory, the stables along the inside of the west wall. It was only a castle when she began, but before very long Sansa knew it was Winterfell. Storm, Sansa VII 8. Her other “saviors” have failed to give her what she wants: home. She’s losing patience with her “saviors” and calling them out for their failures. The Hound is too frightening to trust—and she now thinks he left her with nothing. Dontos promises his ship will take her home. Same with the hairnet: Ser Dontos had said the hair net was magic, that it would take her home. Storm, Sansa V But Dontos is no knight—just a sell out. And he’s dead. And Baelish hasn’t given her what she wanted, either. And she’s not pleased. They made a tall tower together, kneeling side by side to roll it smooth, and when they'd raised it Sansa stuck her fingers through the top, grabbed a handful of snow, and flung it full in his face. Petyr yelped, as the snow slid down under his collar. "That was unchivalrously done, my lady." "As was bringing me here, when you swore to take me home." She wondered where this courage had come from, to speak to him so frankly. From Winterfell, she thought. I am stronger within the walls of Winterfell. Storm, Sansa VII 9. Plus, Sansa is getting news from the North—in the same chapter where she compares Robin to the Hound. She’ll very likely soon hear of “Arya’s” torture. No knights saved Sansa. But Sansa can take the Vale Knights to save “Arya.” Myranda gave her a shrewd little smile. "Yes, she was the very soul of wisdom, that good lady." She shifted her seat. "Why must mules be so bony and ill-tempered? Mya does not feed them enough. A nice fat mule would be more comfortable to ride. There's a new High Septon, did you know? Oh, and the Night's Watch has a boy commander, some bastard son of Eddard Stark's." "Jon Snow?" she blurted out, surprised. Feast, Alayne II 10. Sansa has Sweetrobin, leverage over Baelish, and Bronze Yohn Royce. She doesn’t know all of this yet, nor see her way back to Winterfell. But the pieces are there. With Robin, Sansa controls a powerful boy and knows it. She can already get him to assert “bravery” in ways no one else can. She has a “knight” under her control. After witnessing Lysa’s murder and hearing her confession, Sansa has leverage over Baelish, if she can see how to use it and chooses to do so. And she has Bronze Yohn, though she doesn’t understand that yet. From the Game Prologue onward, the Royces are tied to the First Men and the fight against the Others. Sansa is reminded of this at the Hand’s Tourney. And in Storm, Sansa hears from Lysa that Bronze Yohn wanted to join the Starks against the Lannisters. [F]or a moment Sansa thought Lysa Arryn was about to cry. "[. . . ] Yohn Royce has been stirring up all sorts of trouble, demanding that I call my banners and go to war. And the others all swarm around me, Hunter and Corbray and that dreadful Nestor Royce." Storm, Sansa VI From bits and pieces of overheard conversations Sansa knew that Jon Arryn's bannermen resented Lysa's marriage and begrudged Petyr his authority as Lord Protector of the Vale. The senior branch of House Royce was close to open revolt over her aunt's failure to aid Robb in his war, and the Waynwoods, Redforts, Belmores, and Templetons were giving them every support. [. . . ] The Vale of Arryn might have been spared the worst of the war, but it was hardly the idyllic place that Lady Lysa had made it out to be. Storm, Sansa VII Plus, Baelish tells Sansa that Bronze Yohn could be a threat to him. “Bronze Yohn Royce will continue to be hostile, I fear, but so long as he stands alone he is not so much a threat." Feast, Alayne I All of these things are right there for Sansa to take. All she has to do is take them. 11. Thus, the Little Bird has become the one with the power. First over her direwolf—a pretty wolf others misunderstood and feared; then over the Hound—a dangerous man others misunderstood and feared; now over Sweetrobin—a petulant boy whom others don’t bother to understand. Sansa can handle all of them—and she’s beginning to see that. And she likely will soon have information to give her motive to get north—fast. Jon, too, will soon take an army to Winterfell, too. Filling in with Snow. Bottom Line: Sansa’s taking the Vale Knights to reclaim Winterfell. Sansa, obsessed with knights from the start, will make Robin into her “knight” to take back her home. She didn’t trust the Hound enough to go with him. But now that she has Robin, Bronze Yohn, and Baelish potentially under her sway, she won’t need anyone to come and save her. She’ll likely have the power and influence to take what she wants for herself. And she will likely meet Jon at Winterfell as he moves south with the same intent. Snow Knight and Little Bird—re-taking Winterfell. THE END Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted January 14, 2017 Share Posted January 14, 2017 Not that I disagree, in fact i'm pretty damn sure Sweetrobin (via Bronze Yohn) through Sansa meddling will be LF's downfall, but I'm going to apply Occam's razor and say her "influence" over men has nothing to do with skinchanging (wargs are for wolves btw) and alot to do with being beautiful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 2 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said: Not that I disagree, in fact i'm pretty damn sure Sweetrobin (via Bronze Yohn) through Sansa meddling will be LF's downfall, but I'm going to apply Occam's razor and say her "influence" over men has nothing to do with skinchanging (wargs are for wolves btw) and alot to do with being beautiful. A fair point, and I'd agree if it weren't for a few things in the text, such as: 1. The Hound alone seems drawn to Sansa's prettiness in King's Landing--others might be nice. Others beat her for Joff. Even Arys Oakheart--though he hates himself for it. Only the Hound refuses Joff's viciousness in favor of protecting Sansa. 2. When Sansa's afraid at the Blackwater, she thinks of Lady and then says her name. Only then, at that exact moment, does the Hound grab her. And when he does grab her, for all his roughness, he intends to protect her. He even later thinks what he should have done is rape her (or at least says so to Arya)--but he somehow doesn't. 3. When Sansa gets to the Drearfort (a stolen Stark maid at a run-down tower with a pet name), she meets the blind, broken down dog, who immediately takes to her. When Marillion slinks up, the dog growls at him--not unlike Lady's growling at Payne. And in case we didn't notice, Sansa, later in that chapter, tells the dog she wishes he were Lady. 4. When Sweetrobin kisses her, she's thinking she should fantasize about Loras--but she instead she finds herself thinking of the Hound. So--in the text, the Hound grabs Sansa when she's longing for Lady; has Sansa connect the Hound and Robin--even though she's wanting to think about Loras; and has both Lady and the dog (whom she wishes was Lady) as protectors. It's subtle, to an extent--though the moment at the Blackwater and the moment at the Eyrie seem like Martin's trying to make sure we notice the tie in. But it seems like these "protectors" are unusually influenced by Sansa--like Lady and the dog. Besides, Hound, Robin, and dog are all broken--might be what makes them more susceptible to her. Compared to all of the other people who don't protect her at all, no matter how pretty she is. Marillion fully intends to exploit her for that prettiness. But one way or another, I think Sansa gets control of her "Winged Knight" and slays the Griffin King (Baelish). And I'm pretty sure she's going home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I don't think Sansa is full on skin-changing anyone. That implies total and direct control, not just influence. I think she shows some rudimentary foundations for skin-changing like some very honed in empathy. I do think the Hound is her replacement for Lady and has never ceased being so. Their relationship is primarily run on instinct, what's not said rather than said, and empathy. I do think they are subconsciously in each other's head. She's not making him do the things he does; I think they have a connection and he's responding to that. Actually skin-changing a person I don't think would be aligned with her personality. Bran does this to Hodor, but not many people consider that Hodor is actually terrified and harmed by being controlled by Bran. A Bran often does it with maybe good intentions, but Hodor doesn't have a choice. Hodor doesn't want to do some of the things he's forced to do by Bran. This is actually a really big deal because it doesn't respect Hodor as a human being, regardless of his mental disabilities. I don't see someone as empathic as Sansa hurting someone in this way, especially people she cares about. I think she gets people to live up to their better natures by inspiring them to do so, not making them do it. What she does with Sweetrobin I consider an instinctive form of cognitive behavioral therapy. She changes his behavior and emotional state to something more positive by changing the way he thinks about himself. She tells he looks strong and he feels that way. She tells him he's brave and he acts brave. She tells Lancel that he's looking so much better and he and Kevan beam -- her enemies! She instinctively understands on her wedding night that Tyrion is as afraid as she is and she comes to feel pity. Here's where I think it gets even more different with Sandor. She's experienced way worse trauma with Joffrey and she didn't invent things that didn't happen to deal with that. I think his mental state was diminished by alcohol and trauma and he was particularly vulnerable. I do think he wanted to kiss her and she sensed that in his head. I also think he didn't actually do it, because he could sense she wasn't ready for it and she didn't want it like that. The song was exactly what he needed to hear, not what he asked for, that more instinctive knowledge that she correctly picks up on despite his posturing. I think despite his messed up way of going about it, he really does want her consent to not just sex but intimacy. That's why she keeps going back and thinking about the unkiss because it allows her to deal with it and even eroticize it at her own pace when she's ready. Her crushes from Joff to Loras to Sandor evolve very slowly. There is nothing erotic about her daydreams about Joffrey as her prince. Loras she romanticizes in an ideal way and maybe only barely dips her toe into the erotic. She does think about being close to him and touching his skin. I tihnk she also realizes she has zero intimacy with Loras. When she's in conversation with him trying to get closer to him, all it does is cause him to shut down and shut her out. She also realizes the rose was an empty gesture for him. The reader understands why of course. Sandor, she will later come to imagine him in her bed repeatedly and think of the unkiss in an almost braggy kind of way. She says she is afraid, but her actions don't speak of the real fear that she has with Joffrey. I think it's more nervousness at being intimate with someone that intense before she's ready. And nervousness because she finds herself liking some of his ferocity and that is not the kind of thing that's in the songs she's used to. I think with her as Alayne and with him on the QI, they are both undergoing a transformative identity to learn humility and probably come out of that experience closer to the same emotional and mental level. When she said she wished the old blind dog was Lady, it means she wanted him to be more of wolf (her partner) than a dog (ranking below her). He will be back in her life again, both of them matured and renewed, and be in a better mental state to be what she needs. I'm not sold on the idea that SR will die. I think he may have something to do with what's going to happen with her arc. I think this has been a good relationship for them both. I think Bronze Yohn will be her ally. I also think she will play a roll with integrating the Mountain Clans into the rest of society for mutual benefit in the wars to come. This is where her people skills and political training will come in. And she'll do it by inspiring people, not manipulating or forcing people like LF. She will be the cause of his downfall and so will Sandor. Remember, Petyr bet against the Hound at the tourney and lost. ** Edit. If she does any skin-changing I think it will be literally birds or bats or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Also it really looks like Stannis is in the best position to take Winterfell. Winterfell is a giant part of his plans to fight the Others. She's not even anywhere close to that point. I think Sansa and Arya have their own work to do in the Riverlands and the Vale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roose on the Loose Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 Maybe Sansa misremembers kissing the Hound because her demi-warging caused her to have feelings of intimacy that were confusing to her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I don't think Sansa is full on skin-changing anyone. That implies total and direct control, not just influence. I think she shows some rudimentary foundations for skin-changing like some very honed in empathy. I do think the Hound is her replacement for Lady and has never ceased being so. Their relationship is primarily run on instinct, what's not said rather than said, and empathy. I do think they are subconsciously in each other's head. She's not making him do the things he does; I think they have a connection and he's responding to that. Actually skin-changing a person I don't think would be aligned with her personality. Bran does this to Hodor, but not many people consider that Hodor is actually terrified and harmed by being controlled by Bran. Ah! No--sorry. I'm not trying to argue that Sansa is skinchanging anyone. I apologize if I gave that impression. She never got to the level of skin changing Lady before Lady's death. Even Jon and Arya, who have wolf dreams, ETA : DO NOT seem to be consciously skinchanging Ghost or Nymeria. No--I'm thinking it's similar to Sansa's initial influence over Lady--Sansa notes Lady's perfect behavior and even mouths off to her Septa in defense of Lady when Septa Mordane accuses Sansa of being like Arya. Sansa also notes that Naymeria is wild like Arya while Lady is perfectly behaved. And Ned notes Lady's behavior, too. So--influence: like Robb does with Grey Wind. Not quite to the extent of Rickon and Shaggy (that relationship worries me)--but it is influence. Martin draws a circle around it for us in the Blackwater scene: Sansa thinks of Lady and longs for someone to tell her what to do. The exact moment she whispers, "Lady" and hopes to see her wolf, right then--the Hound grabs her. That juxtaposition seems very significant in terms of her influence on the Hound. And her thinking of the Hound instead of Loras (as she says she should think of) when Robin kisses her--that juxtaposition also seems very significant in terms of Sansa's influence on Robin. 12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I do think he wanted to kiss her and she sensed that in his head. I also think he didn't actually do it, because he could sense she wasn't ready for it and she didn't want it like that. The song was exactly what he needed to hear, not what he asked for, that more instinctive knowledge that she correctly picks up on despite his posturing. I agree this is what the Hound really needs--but Sansa is WAY too terrified to possibly get this. Given the juxtaposition of Lady with the Hound in the scene, seems more like the bond Sansa had with Lady--a wild and VERY dangerous animal who becomes sweet under her influence. And Sansa gets more like Arya (according to her Septa) and more defiant (talking back to her Septa and pulling rank) under Lady's influence. A very subtle influence, but Martin took time to show it with Sansa before killing Lady. And shows it with the other kids. And shows it again in Sweetrobin. That influence could very well account for the unkiss, too (though there are other options). The Stark kids share with their wolves--Rickon shares WAY too much. If Sansa is sharing the Hound's desire just as he begins to share her gentleness--that could mess with her memory. 12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Her crushes from Joff to Loras to Sandor evolve very slowly. I agree--but by the time Sweetrobin is kissing her, she is not sweet on the Hound. She thinks of him as "cruel," as "taking" from her and leaving her with "nothing." At best, her feelings are extremely conflicted. At worst, she's NOT happy with him--he failed her. He took from her--as Sweetrobin is taking kisses from her against her will, too. She instead give up on all of that in the Eyrie--and turns instead to being the one in charge, manipulating Sweetrobin to do what must be done, even as it also scares her. Sansa's taking charge. 12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: When she said she wished the old blind dog was Lady, it means she wanted him to be more of wolf (her partner) than a dog (ranking below her). He will be back in her life again, both of them matured and renewed, and be in a better mental state to be what she needs. Errm. . . . this seems odd in light of Sansa's interaction with the dog itself. And her longing for Lady--she really seems to want her wolf back. Period. Not a person--a wolf. As for "wanting the Hound back in a better state--" that seems hard to work with her thoughts in Sweetrobin's room. And her tying him to Sweetrobin's "taking" kisses and leaving her with "nothing." I do hope they see each other again. But one way or another--Sansa's mad at people (Dontos, Baelish, even the Hound) for not helping her to get home. Martin has put everything Sansa needs to get home right in her way--even news/gossip from the North--which seems likely to soon include news of "Arya." Seems like there's a good chance Martin gave Sansa all of those pieces for a reason. 12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I'm not sold on the idea that SR will die. I think he may have something to do with what's going to happen with her arc. I think this has been a good relationship for them both. I think Bronze Yohn will be her ally. Agreed--plus, from the Game Prologue onward, Martin's made it very clear that the Royce's are tied to the ancient war against the Others. Which means they could very well "Remember" (fitting their words) the importance of that history and help Sansa get back home. And though Robin may annoy me, I'd rather he didn't die. Quote I also think she will play a roll with integrating the Mountain Clans into the rest of society for mutual benefit in the wars to come. This is where her people skills and political training will come in. And she'll do it by inspiring people, not manipulating or forcing people like LF. She will be the cause of his downfall and so will Sandor. Remember, Petyr bet against the Hound at the tourney and lost. This could be very cool--though so far her tie to the Mountain Clans is being terrified of them when they are "helping" her after her beating. As for "inspiring" vs. "manipulating"--there's a fine line, there. We do have her working Robin very, very well. And Martin's tied it to her influence over Lady. But one way or another--I do think she will take down Baelish--Lysa's Moon Door Confession is just sitting there, latent in Sansa's memory. Seems like she has to use it sometime. Quote ** Edit. If she does any skin-changing I think it will be literally birds or bats or both. This would be very cool. 12 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Also it really looks like Stannis is in the best position to take Winterfell. Winterfell is a giant part of his plans to fight the Others. She's not even anywhere close to that point. I think Sansa and Arya have their own work to do in the Riverlands and the Vale. I agree that Stannis is currently in the best position. But Martin's given Sansa all kinds of leverage and motivation to get home. She's wanted to get home for a while. She's angry at Baelish--even attacking him with snow and her own castle--for not taking her home. She thinks of openly revolting against Lysa after Robin destroys Snow Winterfell. She has really good leverage against Baelish in the form of Lysa's confession. She know the Royces don't like Baelish--and thus would likely believe the data in the Moon Door Confession. She knows the Royces wanted to support Robb--badly--and are knowledgeable enough to send a son to the Wall. And now she's getting gossip/news from the North. So, if she hears (since it's not a secret) that "Arya" has been given to the Boltons, and if Baelish told her to wait before going to help her sister. . . . how long do you think she'd wait before taking all of that leverage and using it to save her "sister" from the abuse she herself wasn't protected from? So, I'm not sure it will be about "taking back the North." I think there's a very good chance it will be about "saving her sister." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sly Wren Posted January 15, 2017 Author Share Posted January 15, 2017 32 minutes ago, Roose on the Loose said: Maybe Sansa misremembers kissing the Hound because her demi-warging caused her to have feelings of intimacy that were confusing to her. YUP! Or even caused her to feel as the Hound felt--like her personality changes with Lady and Lady's with her. Same with the other Stark kids and their wolves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 I'm convinced. I remember too Sansa's successful hunting trip with a little falcon in King's Landing. So maybe SR will be a weapon in her hand, though not, I think, a protector - if so, I would have expected some imagery of cloaks or bears by now. The question remaining is whether Sweetrobin will ever be strong enough to be a useful weapon. At face value, the answer is no, but I begin to have hopes for SR. That ugly, scrawny look he's got at the moment - isn't that very like a newborn chick? And isn't an eyrie the place where eagles are born? I begin to think that SR is a True Falcon, in a way that Harry the Heir can never be. Back to Sansa. Logically her influence should extend to other little birds around her. It's easy to see how this would work with Petyr the Mockingbird and Harry the Young Falcon. And I think there might be more - in Butterbumps' magic trick, Sansa hatched (I think) twelve yellow chicks from a giant egg. Yellow is a colour associated with fighters in the books. I hazard a guess that Sansa will recruit twelve Vale fighters to her cause - likely the eight Winged Knights, plus SR, plus three more. It's a possibility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 @Sly Wren This always struck me as kind of interesting at the Purple Wedding in Tyrion VIII, ASOS Quote His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son's body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. "The boy is gone, Cersei," Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. "Unhand him now. Let him go." She did not hear. It took two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp and lifeless to the floor. The black dog coming up beside Cersei is such an odd detail to throw in unless it meant something. Sansa's already gone from the scene before Joffrey dies. In Sansa V Quote Sansa felt as though she were in a dream. "Joffrey is dead," she told the trees, to see if that would wake her. He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa. "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf." A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down. The bells were ringing, slow and mournful. Ringing, ringing, ringing. They had rung for King Robert the same way. Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy? 2 She knows Joffrey is dead from the bells tolling, but she wasn't there to witness Cersei's agony. Cersei is pretty much the only one who is genuinely sad and in pain from Joff dying. I don't think Sansa was weeping because she felt sorry for Joffrey. It was frightening and grusome to see him choking. I don't think her tears were tears of joy, even though there definitely was a sense of relief that she was free of her abuser. Even in later reflection on Joffrey's death she takes no joy in it. I think she was weeping most of all because through that dog she could empathically feel Cersei's pain. The two scenes are happening near simultaneously and she does not consciously think of Cersei at all. Meanwhile, she's also at the same time going to the godswood to act on her escape plan. This is not naturally a time she would be reflecting on a mother's pain while she's under pressure to sneak out quickly. I think her confusion over why she was crying so much was because her own feelings of finally being free were being muddled with Cersei's grief. It almost gives her a hysterical feeling like she has two emotional states in conflict with each other. That a black dog is the one that slinks up beside Cersei in her grief is appropriate because dogs are highly attuned to emotional states. 3 hours ago, Sly Wren said: Martin draws a circle around it for us in the Blackwater scene: Sansa thinks of Lady and longs for someone to tell her what to do. The exact moment she whispers, "Lady" and hopes to see her wolf, right then--the Hound grabs her. That juxtaposition seems very significant in terms of her influence on the Hound. And her thinking of the Hound instead of Loras (as she says she should think of) when Robin kisses her--that juxtaposition also seems very significant in terms of Sansa's influence on Robin. I understand what you are saying. I agree with you. Sansa has never had an experience yet with a male that wasn't thrust upon her. But I don't think her unkiss with the Hound is something she rejects as much as Robin's kiss, which she clearly doesn't find desirable. In an reverse way, she's playing the role of Loras and Sweetrobin is playing her, the naive child full of fantasy romance. Sansa made a very awkward attempt to hit on Loras that could not have been lost on him. But he cannot reciprocate because he does not desire her or any woman, but he cannot be open about what he really desires either. Nothing Robin does can change the fact that Sansa doesn't reciprocate the feeling and nor could Sansa's beauty or attempt to have intimacy with Loras change his mind. But she also is gentle with Sweetrobin most of the time because she doesn't want to overtly hurt his feelings, because she understands what it's like to be him. This understanding about mature relationships is kinda what snaps Sansa around to start thinking about what's real. Who has really helped her and supported her? Who does more than empty gestures and flattery? 3 hours ago, Sly Wren said: I agree--but by the time Sweetrobin is kissing her, she is not sweet on the Hound. She thinks of him as "cruel," as "taking" from her and leaving her with "nothing." At best, her feelings are extremely conflicted. At worst, she's NOT happy with him--he failed her. He took from her--as Sweetrobin is taking kisses from her against her will, too. She instead give up on all of that in the Eyrie--and turns instead to being the one in charge, manipulating Sweetrobin to do what must be done, even as it also scares her. Sansa's taking charge. The kiss she imagines is not a sweet, story kind. She does think of it as cruel and taking, but there's a double meaning here. That whole Blackwater scene is pretty amazing in the word play. There is sexual connotations in the language, but nothing actually sexual happens, which is a good thing because Sansa isn't ready for it and a good thing for Sandor because he didn't cross the line completely into actually doing permanent damage. I agree her feelings are very complex about it. She has a right to be frightened in the moment because he's drunk, covered in blood, and acting unstable. He is making a demand of her to sing, when she said before she would be happy to do so willingly. As soon as she's gone she comforts herself with his cloak and keeps in with her own summer silks. She repeatedly compares other men to him to see how they measure up. She repeated thinks about the kiss, even in a braggy way when Megga talks about kissing, wishes DOntos were more like him, wishes he were there to give her advice. But she also at the same time can consider how mean and harsh he could be sometimes when he's telling her the truth and taking it too far. She acknowledges he can be inappropriate, especially when he's drunk. Looking at everything in totality, there's a sense of complexity to her feelings. She cares for him, has compassion for him, understands his trauma (but doesn't excuse his behavior), she knows he actually won't hurt her, he's given her support, she can actually like his ferocity up to the point it doesn't go over the line and become mean. So, we can then maybe say the "cruelty" of the unkiss was that it was actually an adult, real, passionate kiss and that she was actually disappointed that it was left at that -- with nothing else. Because we know that didn't actually happen, it was invented later after the Blackwater, that this it's actually what she subconsciously wanted. It culminated in her mind because it would have been a bad thing if it actually did happen in that moment. Her reflections on it say a part of her wanted to kiss him, but it was the wrong time and place, she didn't want it when he was all drunk and inappropriate, she would prefer it were when she's ready and choosing to reciprocate. Not that kissing him in and of itself was something unwanted or a bad thing. It's always the quiet sweet ones that like the darker, edgier guys. It's George's way of telling us they have an intimate connection and mutual feeling, but it can't actually happen right now because she's too young and immature and he's kinda messed up and needs more help that she is not equipped to give him. 3 hours ago, Sly Wren said: Errm. . . . this seems odd in light of Sansa's interaction with the dog itself. And her longing for Lady--she really seems to want her wolf back. Period. Not a person--a wolf. As for "wanting the Hound back in a better state--" that seems hard to work with her thoughts in Sweetrobin's room. And her tying him to Sweetrobin's "taking" kisses and leaving her with "nothing." I do hope they see each other again. But one way or another--Sansa's mad at people (Dontos, Baelish, even the Hound) for not helping her to get home. Martin has put everything Sansa needs to get home right in her way--even news/gossip from the North--which seems likely to soon include news of "Arya." Seems like there's a good chance Martin gave Sansa all of those pieces for a reason. Maybe I should elaborate more. I think we can agree the direwolf is not a pet. It's a spiritual partner and protector for each of the kids. You are right about how the Hound keeps getting juxtaposed with Lady. He rides up the very moment Ned has killed Lady. King Robert says "a direwolf is no pet. Get her a dog instead, she'll be happier for it." He's kinda right. So we do have a symbollic set up of Lady = Sandor. I'm going to say Sandor specifically, not the Hound. The Hound is the persona Sandor has adopted to protect himself against the cruelty of the world and it's born out of his own trauma and the failure of his brother to meet justice. By the time we get to the QI, the Hound is dead and Sandor is at rest. The Hound is the part of him that reacts harshly and mean to Sansa at times. Sandor is the part that cares about her and is motivated to help her, which she tapped into when she touched his should and gave him compassion for his trauma. Think of the state of that old blind dog and Hound at that point in the story. He's out wandering the Riverlands in a wretched state. The dog here is in a sad, old state, it can no longer go on guard duty. But she pets it and it licks her hand and they become "fast friends." It also growls when Marillion tries to rape her, but it's powerless protect her in it's current state. Who saves her at that point? Lothor Brune that she actually mistakes for Sandor. Then she also has her first dream of her marriage bed and her mind replaces Tyrion with the Hound wanting a song (now she fully understands what song actually meant). When she wakes up, she wishes the old blind dog were Lady. If Lady = Sandor has been juxtaposed many times before, then what she wishes is that the old blind dog (the Hound) were more like Lady (Sandor). Sansa is consciously and literally thinking of the direwolf, but the reader is supposed to see the symbolic and probably Sansa's subconscious meaning. We also have to look at the connections and differences between dogs and wolves. Dogs can be great. They are loyal and protective and descendants of wolves, but they are also domesticated and must obey a master. This is reflective of the difference in social class between Sansa and Sandor, who is at the time a servant of the Lannisters. She's way above him in the social order, a thing that also greatly restricts their interactions. In order for the Hound/old blind dog/lower class to reclaim Sandor/ Lady / partner he cannot be a dog anymore. Not a Lannister dog. He becomes his "own dog" for a while before he winds up on the QI, to get to his next transitional stage. Lannister dog < Sansa's dog < his own dog < the dog dies < reborn as a direwolf. Sorry to twaddle on, I just wanted to be clear about how I meant that transition and what it means to Sansa in the future. I agree with you completely that she's set up to get the information she needs to take things into her own hands and do things the right way. She is mad at people Dontos and Baelish for sure, because they are helping her only if it is self-serving first and foremost. I don't think she's really that mad at Sandor. She did turn down his offer to go with him and she would wonder later if she made the right choice when she starts having serious doubts about Dontos. She did make the right decision because he was not fit to protect her at that point. So he really didn't abandon her, she turned him down and he left thinking she rejected him because she was still scared of him. Old blind dog couldn't see that she was frightened by his specific actions in context of the situation, not him as a person or his face. Of course, he will later at his "death" feel like he did abandon her to Tyrion and the fate he imagines she had. When they do meet again, Sandor does know who betrayed her father and maybe what really happened to Jeyne Poole. Plus he did try to take care of Arya even after the RW. 3 hours ago, Sly Wren said: This could be very cool--though so far her tie to the Mountain Clans is being terrified of them when they are "helping" her after her beating. As for "inspiring" vs. "manipulating"--there's a fine line, there. We do have her working Robin very, very well. And Martin's tied it to her influence over Lady. But one way or another--I do think she will take down Baelish--Lysa's Moon Door Confession is just sitting there, latent in Sansa's memory. Seems like she has to use it sometime. Yeah, she does have initial wildling prejudice, but by that point I know she's kinda gotten beyond appearances. The fact that she was married to Tyrion that armed the clans with steel could prove a useful bit of information. The clans are descendants of First Men nobility that owned the Vale before the Andals invaded and who never bent the knee. They've been wanting to reclaim their home ever since but lacked resources and numbers to do so. I think Sansa could broker a peace with the Yohn Royce to take back control on Sweetrobin's behalf. Added bonus... Timett is leader of the Burned Men, who burned out his own eye to prove his ferocity and fearlessness. I wonder how'd they react if they saw Sansa with her own burned man at her side as well as being the former wife of the "half-man." I agree about the fine line and I think it's this: does she care about Robin as a human being or just see him only as a pawn? It's clear that Petyr sees everyone as a pawn and he only thinks of their desires in the basest way: money, sex, power. He doesn't understand what goes on with people at their heart. There's nothing wrong with influencing someone if you care about their needs and wants, dreams, and well-being -- treat them like a human being worthy of respect. What's at Robin's heart? He knows everyone thinks he's a dead-kid-walking and he resents it. He's coddled like a baby and treated like puppet, trotted out when Petyr needs him to make an appearance that helps him. The sweetsleep is not being used as poison to kill him, because Petyr's whole basis for legitimate rule is that he's Robert's guardian. That ends if Robert dies. It's a means to prevent his shaking at key moments when Petyr needs to look like he's taking good care of Robert in public so his guardianship cannot be questioned. It means nothing to him that the sweetsleep could have addictive effects -- it's reckless neglect to achieve a goal and is on par with Petyr's clean hands approach. I say Sansa is taking a "hands on" approach and doing the hard work of parenting this kid and undoing Lysa's toxic parenting. What brings on his shaking is when he's scared or upset. So she prevents the shaking without drugs by encouraging him to be brave and strong, which of course he loves to be told. It's the opposite of how everyone else treats him. She's using the stories of Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight, as a role model for him to aspire to. She understands he needs to be seen in a dignified way by his bannermen to be respected as their high lord. Think of her father's lesson of "putting on the lord's face" in public. It's changing his image from infantile and feeble, to a young lord growing up they can rally behind -- remind them he's Jon Arryn's son. That's the opposite of the puppet Petyr needs him to be. Spoiler Also in TWOW chapter, she does give Robert a firm lesson that just because he's the lord doesn't mean he can treat people anyway he wants and he should especially not dishonor women. Dishonoring her is not love or caring about her as a person. This is a great lesson, great parenting of a young boy, and show's her maturity in thinking about relationships. 1 I agree with you on everything about pooling her resources and making her own alliances with people. I don't know if it's going to be about saving her "sister" in Winterfell. I think Petyr does withhold information for sure; however, if she met with Sandor she would know when and where Arya left him so that can't be Arya in Winterfell all this time. Sandor might have information on what happened to Jeyne Poole. I do think Arya will turn up again in the Riverlands, she's so connected to water, that particular region, and Nymeria's pack is there. So we could have a triangle of regions that the Starks are going to be taking back, North, the Vale, and the Riverlands in their own respective ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 3 hours ago, Springwatch said: That ugly, scrawny look he's got at the moment - isn't that very like a newborn chick? And isn't an eyrie the place where eagles are born? I begin to think that SR is a True Falcon, in a way that Harry the Heir can never be. Back to Sansa. Logically her influence should extend to other little birds around her. It's easy to see how this would work with Petyr the Mockingbird and Harry the Young Falcon. And I think there might be more - in Butterbumps' magic trick, Sansa hatched (I think) twelve yellow chicks from a giant egg. Yellow is a colour associated with fighters in the books. That's very interesting and good observation. It's falcons primarily in the Eyrie, but yeah baby eaglets are not cute. They are scrawny, featherless, and they are constantly demanding. That's a pretty good description for Sweetrobin. But they will become a beautiful, noble looking bird of prey one day. Harry is the heir by sheer accident of fate. People say he looks like Jon Arryn, but we know all about how things appear on the surface in the story. On the other hand, I wish we got Robin's eye color, which I think is deliberately withheld because he doesn't look like Lysa or Jon. Quote Butterbumps arrived before the food, dressed in a jester's suit of green and yellow feathers with a floppy coxcomb. An immense round fat man, as big as three Moon Boys, he came cartwheeling into the hall, vaulted onto the table, and laid a gigantic egg right in front of Sansa. "Break it, my lady," he commanded. When she did, a dozen yellow chicks escaped and began running in all directions. "Catch them!" Butterbumps exclaimed. Little Lady Bulwer snagged one and handed it to him, whereby he tilted back his head, popped it into his huge rubbery mouth, and seemed to swallow it whole. When he belched, tiny yellow feathers flew out his nose. Lady Bulwer began to wail in distress, but her tears turned into a sudden squeal of delight when the chick came squirming out of the sleeve of her gown and ran down her arm. Here's a great link to analysis by Seams for that scene. It probably does have a lot more to do with Sansa's unwitting role in hatching the Purple Wedding, but the bird connections are still strong there. It may still apply. If Butterbumps is the one that presents her with the egg = the fool Dontos presenting her with the hairnet, then Olenna could also be in the role of Petyr Baelish. This is their joint plot after all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 33 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: This always struck me as kind of interesting at the Purple Wedding in Tyrion VIII, ASOS Quote His sister sat in a puddle of wine, cradling her son's body. Her gown was torn and stained, her face white as chalk. A thin black dog crept up beside her, sniffing at Joffrey's corpse. "The boy is gone, Cersei," Lord Tywin said. He put his gloved hand on his daughter's shoulder as one of his guardsmen shooed away the dog. "Unhand him now. Let him go." She did not hear. It took two Kingsguard to pry loose her fingers, so the body of King Joffrey Baratheon could slide limp and lifeless to the floor. The black dog coming up beside Cersei is such an odd detail to throw in unless it meant something. Sansa's already gone from the scene before Joffrey dies. In Sansa V Quote Sansa felt as though she were in a dream. "Joffrey is dead," she told the trees, to see if that would wake her. He had not been dead when she left the throne room. He had been on his knees, though, clawing at his throat, tearing at his own skin as he fought to breathe. The sight of it had been too terrible to watch, and she had turned and fled, sobbing. Lady Tanda had been fleeing as well. "You have a good heart, my lady," she said to Sansa. "Not every maid would weep so for a man who set her aside and wed her to a dwarf." A good heart. I have a good heart. Hysterical laughter rose up her gullet, but Sansa choked it back down. The bells were ringing, slow and mournful. Ringing, ringing, ringing. They had rung for King Robert the same way. Joffrey was dead, he was dead, he was dead, dead, dead. Why was she crying, when she wanted to dance? Were they tears of joy? 2 She knows Joffrey is dead from the bells tolling, but she wasn't there to witness Cersei's agony. Cersei is pretty much the only one who is genuinely sad and in pain from Joff dying. I don't think Sansa was weeping because she felt sorry for Joffrey. It was frightening and grusome to see him choking. I don't think her tears were tears of joy, even though there definitely was a sense of relief that she was free of her abuser. Even in later reflection on Joffrey's death she takes no joy in it. I think she was weeping most of all because through that dog she could empathically feel Cersei's pain. The two scenes are happening near simultaneously and she does not consciously think of Cersei at all. Meanwhile, she's also at the same time going to the godswood to act on her escape plan. This is not naturally a time she would be reflecting on a mother's pain while she's under pressure to sneak out quickly. I think her confusion over why she was crying so much was because her own feelings of finally being free were being muddled with Cersei's grief. It almost gives her a hysterical feeling like she has two emotional states in conflict with each other. That a black dog is the one that slinks up beside Cersei in her grief is appropriate because dogs are highly attuned to emotional states. This is very interesting. Are you thinking that Sansa somehow warged that black dog, or at least shared it's conscious for a time? It has certainly given me something to ponder. Thank you! I have always associated that black dog with death. That the black dog of death had come for Joffrey! Fitting also, because he was so cruel to animals. Another time that I associate a black dog with death is in Jon's first POV chapter during the feast at Winterfell. "Dogs moved between the tables, trailing after the serving girls. One of them, a black mongrel bitch with long yellow eyes, caught a scent of the chicken. She stopped and edged under the bench to get a share. Jon watched the confrontation. The bitch growled low in her throat and moved closer. Ghost looked up, silent, and fixed the dog with those hot red eyes. The bitch snapped an angry challenge. She was three times the size of the direwolf pup. Ghost did not move. He stood over his prize and opened his mouth, baring his fangs. The bitch tensed, barked again, then thought better of this fight. She turned and slunk away, with one last defiant snap to save her pride. Ghost went back to his meal." JON I-aGot I have wondered if this isn't a indication that Ghost will save Jon from death, but chasing the "black mongrel bitch" away. This works if Jon does warg Ghost at the time of his stabbing, or if some how Ghost is able to get to the scene of the assassination and save Jon. Not trying to hijack this thread from Sansa to Jon, but I think the black dog/black bitch assosiation is interesting. Maybe these passages all have more than one meaning or possibility, hence why it can be so complicated to analyse the text. I have always felt like the Hound was a surrogate for both Lady and Nymeria for Sansa and Arya. And I have felt like with Sansa's bird imagery, that if she tapped into her skin changing potential it would be with a bird, maybe because it is available, like Arya does with the cat in Braavos. I do see her future source of power as being in the Vale, and I like the connection between her and Timett. She of red hair, he of Red Hand. I like the bat idea, too, if she ever makes it to Harrenhal, which is possible, considering Litterfinger holds Harrenhal now, and may need to retreat there when his world starts crumbling. They (Sansa/Timett) are both decended from the First Men, his burned men/burned eye imagery and her connection to Sandor, who was also burned. I think it is Sandor or Timett for Sansa, so different from what she dreamed of as a child, but probably just what she needs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 34 minutes ago, St Daga said: This is very interesting. Are you thinking that Sansa somehow warged that black dog, or at least shared it's conscious for a time? It has certainly given me something to ponder. Thank you! Not warging, I wouldn't go that far. More like sharing its feelings and perceptions without being in its body directly. That intuitive connection that the kids have with their direwolves. Like the way Shaggydog gets vicious when Rickon gets mad or insecure. I don't think the connection is a one-way street from skin-changer to animal. I think it's more back and forth. I think that's the foundational level connection that accidental and purposeful warging evolves from, in my opinion, We know from Varamyr that he started warging with dogs and they were somewhat easy to get into their heads. Maybe because they are already domesticated and attuned to human emotions. They are already primed for it. 34 minutes ago, St Daga said: I have always associated that black dog with death. That the black dog of death had come for Joffrey! Fitting also, because he was so cruel to animals I like your observations with the black bitch and Ghost. Jon is assassinated by his black brothers and I do think Ghost will play a role in preserving his soul from being completely lost -- unclaimed by death. There could be more than one symbolic association or layer to the black dog depending on the context and chapter. You're right about his cruelty, but what's ironic it's directed at cats and he's a lion cub from both parents. The thing about dogs is that they are often a reflection of their master. Dogs are loyal, but don't take advantage of their nature too often and they can turn on the master. The Hound is a good loyal dog and he's smart, capable, and skilled. That's why he's trusted to directly protect Cersei and Joffrey. Tywin would never use the Mountain in such a way. But he's exploited, kicked too often, treated like a weapon and not a man. Joffrey wanted to make him fight to the death at his nameday tourney, but he managed to get out of it. At blackwater they treat him like a coward when he was tired of needlessly losing so many men and pointed out a better way to fight inside the gate. After he left, he was made an outlaw for desertion. Cersei will reflect later it was a bad thing to lose the Hound. After he's gone the kingsguard has never been lower. It's full of spies, sycophants, and incompetents. The fact that a black dog is present is telling. Maybe if Sandor were there, Joffrey would not have died. A dog can smell a lie! He's the one competent kingsguard working that might have been actually doing his job and been observant enough to see someone slip the poison in the cup. They lost their best asset when they pushed Sandor too far. I think there's lots of hints that Sandor belongs in First Men culture. First he just looks like a displaced Northerner. His look is very consistent with a lot of Northern men. Plain, honest, gaunt, stern looking. Gray eyes, dark hair, like Ned, Lyanna, Jon, and Arya. Sansa once mistakes him for her father. Hell, Arya even gets mistaken for his kid! Second, he does not do knighthood. No problem there in the North. And speaking of Burned Men, Jon is one too! I think the Burned Men would not want to mess with Sandor if they saw a guy with half his face burned off and Timmett just has an eye missing! Though Sandor is doing some time with the Seven on the Isle, I don't think that's what he'll actually have an affinity for it. The QI is unique in that actually has the quiet contemplation that is present in worship at a weirwood. It also has the Hermit's Hole, which is an ancient pre-Andal and the Seven place of power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Here's a great link to analysis by Seams for that scene. It probably does have a lot more to do with Sansa's unwitting role in hatching the Purple Wedding, but the bird connections are still strong there. It may still apply. If Butterbumps is the one that presents her with the egg = the fool Dontos presenting her with the hairnet, then Olenna could also be in the role of Petyr Baelish. This is their joint plot after all. Thanks so much for the link - it's a scene I'm very interested in, and as a bonus links on to a thread about hard-boiled eggs, which I've never quite got the hang of as foreshadowing. I'll put this down before I start reading: there's a striking use of eggs to describe the eyes of frightened people - huge white eyes like eggs. Maybe the soul exposed. Anyway, we don't know the colour of SR's eyes, but they are described as red and runny. Red could be SR's bloodthirsty nature. Runny brings me back to eyes like eggs. SR is not a hard-boiled character, or even soft-boiled - he is a falcon only in embryo. I begin to worry about him again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springwatch Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 26 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: Not warging, I wouldn't go that far. More like sharing its feelings and perceptions without being in its body directly. That intuitive connection that the kids have with their direwolves. Like the way Shaggydog gets vicious when Rickon gets mad or insecure. I don't think the connection is a one-way street from skin-changer to animal. I think it's more back and forth. I think that's the foundational level connection that accidental and purposeful warging evolves from, in my opinion, We know from Varamyr that he started warging with dogs and they were somewhat easy to get into their heads. Maybe because they are already domesticated and attuned to human emotions. They are already primed for it. Good point. There are many levels of influence short of the full skin-changing experience - Varamyr's snowbear would have killed him if she had a chance, but she never did - not even when he skin-changed another animal, not even when he was asleep. She was under his influence all the time. Of course, he was already a powerful skin-changer when he got the bear, so no need for an emotional affinity to get things started. Many good points above on dogs and the Hound. I'm sure Sandor will be back - he said dogs stay loyal to the very end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 15, 2017 Share Posted January 15, 2017 57 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: You're right about his cruelty, but what's ironic it's directed at cats and he's a lion cub from both parents. Maybe on some level Joffrey senses something is off in his own background, and he lashes out at cat's because of that. However, given time, that would have developed into bigger and bolder cruelty, I think. Robert sensed that in Joffrey and that was one of the reasons he was so upset that Joffrey was his son. I think Joffrey is a lot like Tywin, but never had those instincts for cruelty toned down or hidden. I think that Tywin and Joffrey are both psychopaths, and if Tywin had time to mold Joffrey, it could have been much worse for Westeros. 1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: I think there's lots of hints that Sandor belongs in First Men culture. First he just looks like a displaced Northerner. His look is very consistent with a lot of Northern men. Plain, honest, gaunt, stern looking. Gray eyes, dark hair, like Ned, Lyanna, Jon, and Arya. Sansa once mistakes him for her father. Hell, Arya even gets mistaken for his kid! Second, he does not do knighthood. No problem there in the North. Love this observation. There is some of the north in the Hound! 1 hour ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said: And speaking of Burned Men, Jon is one too! I think the Burned Men would not want to mess with Sandor if they saw a guy with half his face burned off and Timmett just has an eye missing! The burned men connection is interesting, just as I see connections between people who may have drowned (Tyrion, Davos, more that I can't think of at this moment, but I have a list I made somewhere). One thing that makes Timett pretty darn fierce is that he burned his own eye out, as opposed to Jon's burns which, while self inflicted, were accidental, and Sandor's which were inflicted by his cruel older brother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 3 hours ago, Springwatch said: Red could be SR's bloodthirsty nature. Runny brings me back to eyes like eggs. SR is not a hard-boiled character, or even soft-boiled - he is a falcon only in embryo. 1 Runny eggs! Good one. I'm thinking more about it and I think there's still more to be revealed in the books about SR, but there's weirwood symbolism here in rheumy (wet and red) eyes I think. Eyes = eggs may be another layer to it. With Dany hatching the dragons, there could be more than one way to hatch something magical through a crucible of sorts. Please let us know if you find anything on that. Quote Alayne took Robert's gloved hand in her own to stop his shaking. "Sweetrobin," she said, "I'm scared. Hold my hand, and help me get across. I know you're not afraid." He looked at her, his pupils small dark pinpricks in eyes as big and white as eggs. "I'm not?" "Not you. You're my winged knight, Ser Sweetrobin." 1 In this context with Robert, his eyes are wide as eggs but it happens after Sansa stops his shaking and declares she knows Robert is not afraid. Then he becomes the winged knight. Maybe he hatched, got wings, and now he's leaving the nest? This is a huge milestone for Robert as he successfully descends the Eyrie without a shaking fit primarily because of Sansa's influence, not because of being drugged cause he was about to shake anyway. But then if his shaking fit can be overcome with just thinking differently, what does that say about his diagnosis? Maybe he wasn't really born with a shaking sickness and there is a way he can be "cured." There may be a situation of eggs vs milk in this story. Sansa's parenting (eggs/hatching) vs Lysa's (milk/Sweetmilk). One is symbolic of infancy and in Robert's case, still an infant at 6. Hatching is just one stage in the process of incubating, being born, getting feathers, and leaving the nest. Check this other egg scene out: Quote "Be a good boy and eat your porridge," Alayne pleaded. "Please? For me?""I don't want porridge." Robert flung his spoon across the hall. It bounced off a hanging tapestry, and left a smear of porridge upon a white silk moon. "The lord wants eggs!""The lord shall eat porridge and be thankful for it," said Petyr's voice, behind them. 2 Quote "Your mother is dead, my lord. Until your sixteenth name day, I rule the Eyrie." Petyr turned to the stoop-backed serving woman hovering near the kitchen steps. "Mela, fetch his lordship a new spoon. He wants to eat his porridge.""I do not! Let my porridge fly!" This time Robert flung the bowl, porridge and honey and all. Petyr Baelish ducked aside nimbly, but Maester Colemon was not so quick. The wooden bowl caught him square in the chest, and its contents exploded upward over his face and shoulders. He yelped in a most unmaesterlike fashion, while Alayne turned to soothe the little lordling, but too late. The fit was on him. A pitcher of milk went flying as his hand caught it, flailing. When he tried to rise he knocked his chair backwards and fell on top of it. One foot caught Alayne in the belly, so hard it knocked the wind from her. "Oh, gods be good," she heard Petyr say, disgusted. Globs of porridge dotted Maester Colemon's face and hair as he knelt over his charge, murmuring soothing words. One gobbet crept slowly down his right cheek, like a lumpy grey-brown tear. 6 He's been having a tatrum about not having eggs. While on the surface it just looks bratty and annoying, look at what he's rejecting. Petyr is forcing him to eat the porridge he has in direct relation to a conversation about Petyr insisting he is ruler of the Eyrie. The porridge that is sweetened with honey is aimed at Petyr but misses and hits Maester Colemon. He has a fit and destroys the pitcher of milk. He even kicks Sansa, which could even be his frustration with her in her Alayne persona and being the dutiful daughter of a bad man. This scene precedes the Lord's Declarant meeting and I think shows the evolution of Sansa kinda pretending to be a mother to SR with an emotional distance to then actually bonding with him over stories and hands on parenting. It is a process, because let's be honest, he's not the easiest kid to love or understand at times. She didn't initially bond with him because she was also still under a threat of possibly being forced to marry him one day; however, when she found out about the possible betrothal to Harry she does become more bonded with SR. I think Sansa would appreciate him throwing something at Petyr like she threw at snowball at him for his falseness. So is SR. Getting back to eyes, Lysa is also described as having eyes that are wet and never stop moving (which I think is a symptom of either her anxiety or self-medicating). I think we're set up to think this kid is bloodthirsty like Joffrey. I don't think after getting to know him better that he is. I think he is reacting out of fear of "bad men." He can't actually order himself anyone out the Moon Door. He's too young to make those decisions. It's Lysa as his regent that actually can make that decision. Tyrion assumes SR has had people executed because of his behavior, but there really is no evidence that he ever has. I think when SR demands someone "fly" I think he just acting like Lysa's puppet, literally on her lap. She enjoys ruling and the men that come to court her and the guardianship of SR gives that to her. As long as Robert is weak and dependent on her, she keeps him at her side. She probably wouldn't have the power as his regent and ruling the Vale if he were fostered elsewhere, like with Yohn Royce. Maybe more weirwood symbolism here, but Lysa's skin is described as pale white with a red nipple when Cat first sees her breast feeding her 6 year old son on a weirwood carved throne. I have a very strong suspicion that the sweetsleep started with Lysa taking it to self-medicate her own mental illness. I would say it's safe to say at minimum she has severe anxiety disorder and it's not uncommon for the mentally ill to self-medicate with drugs our alcohol. The faceless men say that a few grains of sweetsleep will make you feel calm and strong and I think Maester Colemon knows more about it than he lets on. Petyr mentions it as a treatment without missing a beat, so he may know if Lysa was using it while she was in KL. It was likely passed to SR through breastmilk which he was getting probably until Petyr married Lysa. Maester Colemon makes a suggestion of using breastmilk to treat Robert, which Petyr dismisses and orders him to use a full pinch of sweetsleep in some cake or sweet. The faceless men say a pinch is enough to knock a grown man out into a deep sleep. From that moment on we can see SR can take a pinch and be perfectly awake and normally functioning. That's a crazy high tolerance level for a kid that weighs a quarter of a grown man, who supposedly just started taking it now when Petyr suggested it. Maester Colemon would know or should know this. I think that's why he gives it to SR in a glass of milk, because he knows that's what he's accustomed to as opposed to any other cake or sweet. Lysa's body is described as going soft and flabby, pale as milk, looking older than she should. It's not that different from Robert's watery eyes, pale and flabby body. It's attributed to her stillbirths and miscarriages, but what if it's from long term drug abuse? Quote Dutifully she approached and knelt beside the bed. Her aunt was drenched in sweet scent, though under that was a sour milky smell. Her cheek tasted of paint and powder. She smells super sweet but under that sour (toxic) milk. Like she's a human shot of sweetmilk? I know people think that when Maester Colemon says it doesn't leave the body it means once he has three pinches at any given point he can die. Maester Colemon does not speak of dying, he's talking about tolerance thresholds and addiction. You will need more and more overtime to be able to achieve the same effect and if it stays in the body it leads to an appearance that Lysa and SR have in common. Yes, it's possible to accidently overdose if you happen to overcompensate with the amount. So it acts more like heroin rather than say arsenic poisoning. I think it's been meted out in enough of a controlled way he actually hasn't been in danger of an overdose, but his tolerance threshold would have been in danger of getting higher. I don't know what the weirwood symbolism here means around SR. There are some BR connections, but I don't want to drag it OT. I think we're still missing information that could connect the dots better, if they are there. I know this post is kind of jumbled and I'm mostly brainstorming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue-Eyed Wolf Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 3 hours ago, St Daga said: The burned men connection is interesting, just as I see connections between people who may have drowned (Tyrion, Davos, more that I can't think of at this moment, but I have a list I made somewhere). One thing that makes Timett pretty darn fierce is that he burned his own eye out, as opposed to Jon's burns which, while self inflicted, were accidental, and Sandor's which were inflicted by his cruel older brother. I was thinking more along the lines of a first impression. Like holy shit, that guy's face is burned off! That's the most metal thing ever! They do rank fierceness by the prominence of the body part burned. Most of them just burn a finger, but Timett does stand out, because burning out your own eye is pretty metal. Sandor also got another accidental burn when he fought Beric Dondarrion in the BwB cave. Maybe he might in the future chose a willing burn? hmmmm... very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isobel Harper Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Changing the vein of the discussion somewhat, @VenezuelanLord discovered the possible condition that SR suffers from. Not true epilepsy but a condition known as pyschogenic NES. The condition is brought on by extreme stress or fear, and Lysa's "parenting" has caused SR to be afraid of... well, everything. As for sweetsleep, I have a hunch that Maester Colemon had taken Sweetrobin OFF of this drug. Sweetsleep is a depressant and is known to suppress bad dreams. It lowers heart rate and blood pressure to aid sleep in addition to causing "good feelings" (what we would call euphoria) to inhibit anxiety or fear that causes nightmares in the first place. It's an opiod-class drug. Signs of opiod withdrawal include (amongst others) runny eyes, runny nose, loss of appetite, tremors, seizures, insomnia, sometimes even bloody nose. SR suffers all of these symptoms: Bloody noses are a result of acute hypertension from withdrawal. Opiods are a depressant and lower blood pressure and heart rate; it's common to exhibit symptoms opposite of a drug's effect on the body when going through withdrawal of said drug. Sweetsleep (and low pulse and blood pressure) doesn't cause bloody nose, withdrawal from it does. Remember when Colemon questions Sansa about SR having nose bleeds? Check. SR has a habit of slipping into Sansa's bedroom because he can't sleep. Insomnia. Check. Remember when SR refused to eat his porridge? No appetite. Check. Runny nose and eyes. Check. Tremors and seizures. Check. (One couldn't tell his "seizures" were from pyschogenic NES or withdrawal at this point. Perhaps the seizure during the breakfast scene was a true seizure.) Classic placebo effect. SR's symptoms from the condition he suffers from are getting better because he BELIEVES they will get better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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