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How Sansa Takes Winterfell with a Winged Knight: Swapping a Hound for her own Little Bird


Sly Wren

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9 minutes ago, Isobel Harper said:

The condition is brought on by extreme stress or fear, and Lysa's "parenting" has caused SR to be afraid of... well, everything. 

As for sweetsleep, I have a hunch that Maester Colemon had taken Sweetrobin OFF of this drug.  Sweetsleep is a depressant and is known to suppress bad dreams.  It lowers heart rate and blood pressure to aid sleep in addition to causing "good feelings" (what we would call euphoria) to inhibit anxiety or fear that causes nightmares in the first place.  It's an opiod-class drug.  Signs of opiod withdrawal include (amongst others) runny eyes, runny nose, loss of appetite, tremors, seizures, insomnia, sometimes even bloody nose.  SR suffers all of these symptoms:

 
 

Thanks for this and the link!  I think his current seizures are still mainly triggered by fears and upsets, but withdrawal from a drug could be the cause of his other physical symptoms that you listed.  I think the breakfast scene was probably caused by an upset because he and Petyr were having an argument related to who is lord of the Vale.  The rest falls into place and makes perfect sense.  I did not think this kid was as naturally as sick as people claimed.

Since we are talking about scientific answers for Robert's problems, I think I would say what Sansa does for SR is closer to Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) than just a placebo effect alone.  CBT is a very effective and fast acting treatment in the real world for depression and anxiety.  As someone who suffered a long time with a diagnosed anxiety disorder I can tell you CBT is highly effective and today I live 95% anxiety-free, without medication.  Basically, the idea is that every feeling (like fear) is preceded by a thought or belief, which may or may not be distorted from reality.  If you can confront, deconstruct, and adjust the preceding thought, you can change the feeling that follows.  In SR's case: no fear, anger, upset --> no shaking.  Sansa can talk therapy him through many of his unreasonable or semi-reasonable fears, but there are still things he is right to be angry and upset about:  His mother's murder, Littlefinger, Harry the Heir, maybe even Maester Colemon.  These are the people that remind him he is weak and frail and maybe will die young.  Sansa actively tries to do the opposite and redirect his thoughts to strength and bravery.  Of course, it's not always that simple.  SR is a very complicated kid with many issues, both physical and emotional.  I would say everything fits perfectly except the loss of appetite.  He was hungry, except it was for eggs and bacon.  It doesn't disqualify anything, George is free to cherry-pick a little if he needs to.  I think the breakfast scene was mainly to show SR's rejection of what he's being fed by LF and Colemon after having the argument about who rules the Vale.  

I do think that Colemon is scared about the amount SR is tolerant of and he probably is attempting to take him off the drug.  He doesn't seem to be very alarmed when the dose of a pinch is commanded.  He seems reluctantly okay with it, but not entirely suprised.  A pinch is an extreme amount of the stuff for someone Robert's size.  It should be enough to knock a grown man out, but Robert is awake and normal.  His initial tolerance levels when we hear about it in Sansa's POV suggest the use of sweetsleep has been going on much longer before Petyr suggested it then.  He may even have withdrawal symptoms because Lysa is dead and he hasn't been breastfeeding, Hence the need for Colemon to give it to him directly.  And the fact that Petyr suggested it may mean he knew Lysa was using it in KL to deal with her own mental health.  Sweetsleep is a pretty common thing in a maester's medicinal arsenal.  If Colemon doesn't know a pinch is a crazy amount, then he's a bad maester.  If he does know and is kinda going along with Petyr, then he is a bad maester.  Colemon may have been attempting a cold-turkey when SR accuses him of putting something vile in his milk.  It was probably nothing in it, just plain milk without the taste of sweetsleep.  This is probably in response to being asked to give Robert more and more sweetmilk within a shorter time period.  Either one of two things he can be worried about:  SR's tolerance level gets higher and he's not giving him enough, therefore he has a shaking fit at a really bad moment that makes Petyr look bad.  OR  he overcompensates the dosage because his tolerance level got too high and he overdoses him, either makes him look drugged out at a bad moment that makes Petyr look bad or just flat out kills him. I think Sansa is wrong when she thinks Colemon cares about the boy... I think Colemon is afraid for himself, else he would have never gone along with the full pinch.  He's a coward and Petyr plows right over him.                                

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Wow! So many good insights based on the text in this post. I don't currently have the textual affirmation to back up my opinion, but I do think that Sansa is perhaps the most evolved character in the story. It's clear that her interactions with LF have greatly influenced her characters progression. She started out as a somewhat pie in the sky highborn lady who dreamed of a reality that quickly was shown to be a young noble lady's understanding of how the world works. Since then, she as dealt with death, abuse, and being a pawn in the greater game. Because of those experiences she has grown. She has begun to evolve into a true cynic/realist with the history to shape her current understanding of the politics of the realm. 

Littlefinger's tutelage combined with her loss of family and her direwolf have transformed her into a more realistic and hardened player in the great game. With her highborn upbringing, coupled with her maturing understanding of life, she has taken the steps to begin realizing that her future success is directly tied to her actions. 

Assuming she continues to learn and grow, she has the potential to be a powerful player in the future of Westeros.

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5 hours ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:
9 hours ago, St Daga said:

The burned men connection is interesting, just as I see connections between people who may have drowned (Tyrion, Davos, more that I can't think of at this moment, but I have a list I made somewhere). One thing that makes Timett pretty darn fierce is that he burned his own eye out, as opposed to Jon's burns which, while self inflicted, were accidental, and Sandor's which were inflicted by his cruel older brother.

 

I was thinking more along the lines of a first impression.  Like holy shit, that guy's face is burned off!  That's the most metal thing ever! :o  They do rank fierceness by the prominence of the body part burned.  Most of them just burn a finger, but Timett does stand out, because burning out your own eye is pretty metal.  Sandor also got another accidental burn when he fought Beric Dondarrion in the BwB cave.  Maybe he might in the future chose a willing burn? hmmmm... very interesting. 

Certainly, Sandor's burns would seem impressive to the Burned Men clan, but would they follow him, and is that what he wants? It could be a connection between Sansa, Sandor and Timett and the Burned Men. It has always felt like Sandor's arc is not done with either Sansa or Arya's story yet. It would be huge for Sandor overcoming his fear of fire by actually choosing a self inflicted burn. Another thought to ponder on. 

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Sansa is happy in the Vale, she doesn't long for home or WF, and the WF she did long for before she made a happy place for herself in the Vale can never be again, as it was dependant on family now dead. She's not going north and she's not going to WF, the giant smashes her mock WF, that's not foreshadowing, that's backshadowing, that already happened. Her destroying the giant is the foreshadowing part. If it were the case her building WF was foreshadowing then WF will need be destroyed again, by a giant, a second time. Not happening. Her training in the manipulation of men is foremost about Tyrion, others including Sandor are secondary.

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18 hours ago, Springwatch said:

I'm convinced. I remember too Sansa's successful hunting trip with a little falcon in King's Landing. So maybe SR will be a weapon in her hand, though not, I think, a protector - if so, I would have expected some imagery of cloaks or bears by now.

The cloak points to Sandor. Sansa is referred to as looking like a bear cub twice, so she has the bear references applied to herself. And Sansa is in the protector role of SR, rather than vice versa. Not just because of the bear references for Sansa, but because of the suckling references.

George uses iconic mothering imagery almost uniquely for sons. The iconic imagery he borrows from is Isis related:

  • breastfeeds her baby son Horus
  • watches over boy Horus when sick (including magical spells) and protects him from assassination
  • regent and advizor for the young man Horus who wishes to go to war

Catelyn, Cersei and Lysa are all either shown or remember breastfeeding sons:

  • Catelyn => Rickon and Robb (both in memory)
  • Cersei => Tommen (Ned's remark) and Joffrey (her own memory)
  • Lysa => SR (shown to still breastfeeding him)

All three are shown to worry and fuss over a sick son, prevent sickness and prevent assassination

  • Catelyn => Bran (at his side while in a coma, her presence prevents the catspaw's success)
  • Cersei => Tommen (fussing over his clothes, whether he eats well enough, food taster, etc)
  • Lysa => SR (over anxious and protective while also feeling from KL, etc)

All three are single moms serving as regent to their ruling-son

  • Catelyn => regent and advizor with Robb's campaign, who unites a southern and northern kingdom and takes a crown and title for both, while Ned is either in a dungeon or minus a head.
  • Cersei => regent over Tommen, and a widow
  • Lysa => SR's regent, and a widow

Horus is the "green-eyed" (Wadjet Eye), the "falcon" who flies, the avenger of his father's murder, the hunter

  • Rickon has plenty of symbolic hunting imagery about him, despite his age
  • Robb has hunting imagery plus avenging his father's death is a major motivation
  • Bran's 3rd eye and him being a "greenseer", who has to learn to "fly"
  • Tommen has literally "green eyes"
  • SR is an Arryn, descended from the Falcon Knight and fascinated by making people "fly" on a greenseer weirwoord throne (though I don't believe he's a greenseer. He's like Beric imo - an image of a greenseer without being one).

Of course George subverts the Isis-Horus myth by having all these mothers fail, and he has a thing for sons being switched and breastfed by surrogate mothers and how that may save their lives (Jon, Edric Dayne, Monster, Aemon Steelsong, Aegon).

Now, after Lysa's death, SR searches Sansa out at night to crawl in bed and suckle at her breasts. Sansa becomes the surrogate mother here. She doesn't have any milk of course, but she provides him the sweetsleep, when Coleman is reluctant to give it to her, which in SR's milk arc is the important component. She continues the drugging, but on the other hand counters Lysa's anxiety projections. Anyhow, if she becomes the surrogate mother to SR, then she's SR's protector, not the other way around. That's partly why Sansa looks like a bear and SR doesn't.

Sansa's protector is and will remain Sandor imo and he's imo sure to reappear in the Vale. She kept his cloak. He is a dog, but a bear is also called "god's dog". He is a Burned Man, and the Burned Men imo are sure to attack the Bloody Gate in tWoW. There's a Sandor Frey squiring for Donnel Waynwood at the Bloody Gate. And then there's blue-eyed wolf's proposal that handsome Ser Byron may be glamored Sandor in the company of Elder Brother of the Quiet Isle (disguised as Morgarth) together with Shadrich. We are led to believe that Shadrich doesn't mean well for Sansa when Brienne meets Shadrich, but this may be a red herring. And apart from the hints about bones and rubies and Quiet Isle and symbolism in Brienne's arc, the poet Lord Byron wrote a poem "epitaph for a dog" for his favourite pet-dog who died of rabies, where he considers a dog a more loyal friend to man than man itself. Anyhow, even if Byron is just Byron, we would still have Burned Men trying to come into the castle via the Bloody Gate (think full innuendo here), with a Sandor name stand-inn serving to protect the gate.

Overall when I see several Horuses or several Isises, George is doing several iterations where he applies the same symbolism in various ways, but only one of them actually is the powerful, effective version. Tommen may be king and have green eyes, but he's the most powerless Horus version. SR may have greenseer symbols of power about him, but he's not a greenseer, nor a skinchanger and thus won't fly (I think there were FM Arryns once, who were greenseers, but they were either long gone or usurped by Andals who simply took the Arryn name because it sounded cool... Like we have Mudds with the GC who aren't really Mudds). Cersei only acts the iconic mother for her own ends, not actually for Tommen at all. Lysa is just nutty. Catelyn failed because she has 3 Horus sons and 2 chthonic daughters - whatever she did for one child backfired for the other. And ultimately I think Sansa will fail with the surrogate role as well. It already has Oedipus hints, with SR wanting Sansa for himself. 

 

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On ‎1‎/‎14‎/‎2017 at 2:11 PM, Sly Wren said:

 

How Sansa Takes Winterfell with a Winged Knight:

 

Swapping a Hound for her own Little Bird

 

VERY SHORT VERSION: Sansa doesn’t recognize her full power with Lady—and loses Lady too soon. She doesn’t recognize her power over the Hound and doesn’t trust him enough to go with him. But with Sweetrobin, Sansa asserts power over her own “little bird.” She’s moving past waiting for knights to save her. Instead, she’s making her own “knight” to do her will. She has everything she needs to assert her power over Sweetrobin, utilize the leverage and information that Baelish has given her, and take the Vale army north to save “Arya” and retake Winterfell.

Wow there is a lot of info in this thread.  Just wanted to offer a thanks OP, a lot of this I agree with, a little of it I don't but still find interesting. More importantly though, I think you've just made Sansa a much more interesting character to me.  I always had trouble with her chapters because I can't seem to relate to her at all.  That and I couldn't find the growth of character that most of the other POV's display.  It seems like I've been just missing some pretty vital aspects of it this whole time.

More credit to GRRM for writing a female POV that many guys (or at least myself) can't relate to lacking the requisite perspectives/life experiences.  It must take a tremendous amount of talent to write about deeply personal experiences from the POV of an opposite gender or sexuality.  I can't help but think about Robin Hobb. When I read Assassin's apprentice for the first time it seemed to capture so perfectly the way I thought as a child and youth, I was blown away when I got to the about an author section at the end of the book and found out she was a woman.

I can't say that you've made Sansa into my favorite character, but you've added a bunch of depth to her arc I wouldn't have otherwise found, so thanks.

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2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Horus is the "green-eyed" (Wadjet Eye), the "falcon" who flies, the avenger of his father's murder, the hunter

  • Rickon has plenty of symbolic hunting imagery about him, despite his age
  • Robb has hunting imagery plus avenging his father's death is a major motivation
  • Bran's 3rd eye and him being a "greenseer", who has to learn to "fly"
  • Tommen has literally "green eyes"
  • SR is an Arryn, descended from the Falcon Knight and fascinated by making people "fly" on a greenseer weirwoord throne (though I don't believe he's a greenseer. He's like Beric imo - an image of a greenseer without being one).
 
6

Thanks for the great input!  One thing stands out to me is that Bran and SR seem to have most in common here.  They are also obsessed with knights (particularly Artys Arryn for SR) and stories.  They have surrogate, milk-less, female caregivers.  Bran has a crush on Meera and SR on Sansa.  Bran wants to spend more and more time skin-changing and doing what he pleases in an able body, much to Jojen's frustration.  SR wants to stay in bed, sleep, read stories, and otherwise avoid reality, much to Sansa's frustration.  That puts Meera and Sansa paralleling each other to an extent, so I wonder if there's something more that can be told to us from that.  I agree with you about the greenseeing imagery being all around SR and with everything he has in common with Bran, what is SR's story supposed to teach us about Bran or greenseeing?  SR seems afraid of the things related to being a greenseer and even Bloodraven:  aversion to men with markings on their face, hates singing, he doesn't want to fly, he wants to make the bad man fly instead.  Lysa to me, aside from the weirwood throne, seems to look like a weirwood herself:  her red hair, pale white skin, red-tipped nipple, body gone stout and saggy (like a thick, knotted tree trunk), painted on face, watery eyes.  That makes her breastmilk like sap, but like I mentioned I think her breastmilk is toxic with sweetsleep, which would account for SR's high tolerance levels even by the time it's initially suggested by Petyr.  Sansa says she smells overly sweet with scent, but beneath that she smells like sour milk.         

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Now, after Lysa's death, SR searches Sansa out at night to crawl in bed and suckle at her breasts. Sansa becomes the surrogate mother here. She doesn't have any milk of course, but she provides him the sweetsleep, when Coleman is reluctant to give it to her, which in SR's milk arc is the important component. She continues the drugging, but on the other hand counters Lysa's anxiety projections. Anyhow, if she becomes the surrogate mother to SR, then she's SR's protector, not the other way around.

...

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Catelyn failed because she has 3 Horus sons and 2 chthonic daughters - whatever she did for one child backfired for the other. And ultimately I think Sansa will fail with the surrogate role as well. It already has Oedipus hints, with SR wanting Sansa for himself.

 
 

 

 
4

I think Sansa may be in a position of having one Horus child, but is stuck between two methods of dealing with SR's issues and sometimes the situation makes the decision making more complicated.  Petyr is clearly just using sweetsleep for expediency's sake, whenever he needs to trot SR out in public to make it look like there's no issue with his guardianship as far as SR's medical care.  That was a point of contention at the Lord's Declarant meeting -- that SR might do better with a more experienced maester at another house.  When Petyr is away and Sansa must make the decision on her own, she is confronted with the dangerous descent of the Eyrie that must be done no matter what before the road is covered in ice.  It's frightening enough all on its own, but if Robert gets scared his shaking fit could cause him to fall to his death on the mountain; but she also has Colemon's kinda vague warning about timing of the dosage and the drug not leaving the body.  The alternative is to drug him completely with dreamwine and strap him to a mule, which would be a most humiliating and undignified in front of his people and SR already has an image problem.  This isn't about making Sansa look good, it's about making SR look like the proud young lord who has the respect of his people, not their pity or mockery.  So that's a no on dreamwine, but she has to weigh the risks of Colemon's warning long term vs certain death of falling off the mountain in the short term.  There's nothing in her background that makes me think she truly has an understanding of drug addiction or tolerance levels.  She certainly has no idea what the significance of a pinch is, but she may also be kinda putting it out of her mind (at least for a while) because of matters at hand and a little bit of denial under pressure.  Colemon's warning is just kinda wishy-washy and doesn't explain any implications to a lay person.  Hell, the reader wouldn't know unless we had the FM explain it.  We don't have an exact time table between Alayne II and TWOW sample:

Quote

Judging by SR's hair growth and the fact that it's clearly autumn at the time of the tourney maybe around 6 months have passed since the descent from the Eyrie according to the timeline.  This is the very next time sweetmilk is mentioned as being given to Robert before the tourney feast.  So it's totally possible they have adhered to that 6 month window Maester Colemon warned about in AFFC.

 
2

So Sansa may have been relying more and more on countering SR's anxieties and symptoms with her influence rather than relying on the sweetmilk.  

I think what we also see is an evolution in Sansa willingly taking on the role of SR's surrogate mother.  When she first meets him, he's Lysa's creature and wholly unpleasant and she must deal with Lysa's plan to make her marry SR right from the jump.  After Lysa dies, Sansa is forced to take on the role of mother whether she likes it or not.  She still finds him annoying at this point, but I do think she relates to being the child of two dead parents.  It's when she finds out about Harry the Heir that the threat of being forced to marry SR is definitively off the table, thus removing that emotional bonding roadblock.  

I also think it's understandable why Sansa would resist mothering SR initially.  She's got enough problems on her plate and mothering is an enormous emotional investment for someone who thinks she's lost all her family save Jon.  But I think it's clear she's used a mutual love of stories to bond over and to help inspire his better behavior.  Yeah, the Oedipal thing is there.  I mentioned before that it's like Robert has become her GoT self and she has become Loras, experiencing from the other side what it's like to be the object of a crush based on fantasy.  No matter what Robert does, he can't make Sansa love him like that.  She tries to let him down easy because she knows what it's like to be that young and foolish, but it also teaches Sansa something about what makes a relationship mature and real.  She does get firm with him when he insists he can have her.  The question is can she correct the Oedipal complex with her parenting style?  

She does care about the man and lord he could become if he lives and that means being firm with him when he needs it, rather than just coddling and bribing.  The next phase or layer is protecting him like a she-bear.  Robert does have a bearskin cloak too, making him her bearcub.  I'm still not 100% on Robert dying, but I at least believe if he does it will be by other means (probably the avalanche) and not his sickness nor drug.  That will be the tragedy, seeing hope of what he could become, then having it ended by something beyond her control.              

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@sweetsunray  I'm copying and pasting (with some editing) something from the Re-Read forum on parallels between SR and Aeron Greyjoy as Prophets, which may or may not relate also to the greenseer imagery around SR.

Quote

1)  The uncut, long hair of an ascetic or hermit.  Damphair fit that criteria.  There's another example of an an ascetic/hermit that is also a prophet is the one that lived on the Fingers who hadn't washed in "forty years" (one could assume he probably didn't get haircuts either).  He prophecized Petyr becoming a "great man" to his father.  Robert's hair has been allowed to grow and grow since Lysa died.  The Eyrie is isolated, so Robert kinda lives like a hermit, preferring to keep to his own tiny household.  Like the Eyrie and the Fingers, the Iron Islands can be a rocky, barren place.   

2)  The dislike of maesters, especially their incompetency.  Damphair blames a maester for causing Urri's death.  Robert has a clear dislike for Maester Colemon.  His treatments actually don't help Robert get any better and he's going along with this whole sweetsleep business like a weak-willed, mealy-mouth doormat.  So there might be the common theme of incompetent medicine killing the patient... maybe.  

3)  The dislike of horses/mules, but uses them out of necessity coming up and down from the Eyrie.  Might be for different reasons given.  Robert doesn't like the smell and the trip is frightening.  This might reflect a symbolic theme I'm thinking about, which I'll get to eventually.  

4)  There seems to be a mirror inversion between the Eyrie's halls and the Drowned God's halls.  There's sky and sea, both great expanses of blue, but opposites.  Falcons belong in the air and drowned men / krakens below the sea.  Neither are land creatures maybe hence the aversion to riding horses/mules.  They wear the respective colors of their elements.  Robert often wears sky blue and Aeron wears sea colors.   

5)  Both are supposed to be weak, but in different ways.  Aeron says he was weak in character, drinking, partying, while Balon was out doing glorious Ironborn things.  Then he nearly died by drowning and was reborn, dedicated to the Drowned God.  Robert is weak in body, but I don't think like Robin Greyjoy.  He actually seems to be growing more perceptive about his situation (if you read the Alayne TWOW sample).  Funny how urinating is a feature of their stories.  Aeron used to perform pissing stunts to prove his manhood in an immature kind of way.  Robert sometimes pisses himself, but it's a result of his "shaking sickness" and it's proof of his physical weakness. 

7

I was also kind of relating drowning of Aeron to the possibility of the avalanche "drowning" SR.  What do you make of this?

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On January 15, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Springwatch said:

I'm convinced. I remember too Sansa's successful hunting trip with a little falcon in King's Landing. So maybe SR will be a weapon in her hand, though not, I think, a protector - if so, I would have expected some imagery of cloaks or bears by now.

I think he's someone she can use to get where she wants to go. 

Plus, the knightly imagery: the Hound was no knight--but he was a soiled Kingsguard who wanted to (in some way) protect her. And his dislike of knights is largely because all of the knights he's seen have failed knightly ideals completely, not because he rejects the ideals--he's disillusioned, but still somewhat idealistic.

Robin Arryn can barely get through a sentence without the Winged Knight coming up--I think he'll at least try to help.

On January 15, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Springwatch said:

That ugly, scrawny look he's got at the moment - isn't that very like a newborn chick? And isn't an eyrie the place where eagles are born? I begin to think that SR is a True Falcon, in a way that Harry the Heir can never be.

Or at least a "winged knight"--who I think was likely a skinchanger. Many others before me have pointed out the ways Robin seems to have qualities of a skinchanger. And thus possibly more likely to be under Sansa's influence--maybe.

On January 15, 2017 at 10:12 AM, Springwatch said:

Back to Sansa. Logically her influence should extend to other little birds around her. It's easy to see how this would work with Petyr the Mockingbird  and Harry the Young Falcon. And I think there might be more - in Butterbumps' magic trick, Sansa hatched (I think) twelve yellow chicks from a giant egg. Yellow is a colour associated with fighters in the books. I hazard a guess that Sansa will recruit twelve Vale fighters to her cause - likely the eight Winged Knights, plus SR, plus three more. It's a possibility.

Maybe--but I think one of the key reasons Sansa has influence over the Hound and Robin is that they are "broken." The Hound (as @sweetsunray has elaborated on far better than I) is a burned man but not by choice. He was maimed and broken. Same with Robin--both with his illness and the horror that is Lysa--and possibly even the voices in the Eyrie from the weirwood chair. 

And the blind dog Sansa so quickly bonds with--also "broken." And Bran can full-on skinchange Hodor arguably because of Hodor impairment.

So, not at all sure Sansa's influence will extend to bird people in general--seems more like that her ability is tied to those who are "broken."

20 hours ago, St Daga said:

The burned men connection is interesting, just as I see connections between people who may have drowned (Tyrion, Davos, more that I can't think of at this moment, but I have a list I made somewhere). One thing that makes Timett pretty darn fierce is that he burned his own eye out, as opposed to Jon's burns which, while self inflicted, were accidental, and Sandor's which were inflicted by his cruel older brother.

:agree:

We even see something similar in Patchface--he's made much more susceptible to whatever is influencing him (drowned greenseer???) because of the accidental drowning. Might even explain why Damphair is more susceptible to the Drowned God--given what his brother did to him.

The Burned Men, the voluntary drowning of the Ironborn--that's chosen. But the broken: Bran, Hound, Robin, Patchface, even somewhat Jon--that's imposed. And seems to create something different.

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15 minutes ago, Sly Wren said:

The Burned Men, the voluntary drowning of the Ironborn--that's chosen. But the broken: Bran, Hound, Robin, Patchface, even somewhat Jon--that's imposed. And seems to create something different.

Interesting observation. Chosen, not by themselves, but for themselves by another power. Is that what makes them special, or are they special before they are chosen? So much mystery and mythos to this story!

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On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I think her confusion over why she was crying so much was because her own feelings of finally being free were being muddled with Cersei's grief.  It almost gives her a hysterical feeling like she has two emotional states in conflict with each other.  That a black dog is the one that slinks up beside Cersei in her grief is appropriate because dogs are highly attuned to emotional states.

Very interesting--Martin's made it clear that skinchanger and skinchangee influence each other--all of that mixed up emotion. That could work.

On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 He becomes his "own dog" for a while before he winds up on the QI, to get to his next transitional stage.  Lannister dog < Sansa's dog < his own dog < the dog dies < reborn as a direwolf.  Sorry to twaddle on, I just wanted to be clear about how I meant that transition and what it means to Sansa in the future.  

I agree with a lot of this. Though it also ties into how Sansa's connecting with Robin--she connects him to the Hound and to that scene at the Blackwater. So, might also be indicative of where she can take Robin/accomplish with Robin that she couldn't with the Hound.

On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I don't think she's really that mad at Sandor.  She did turn down his offer to go with him and she would wonder later if she made the right choice when she starts having serious doubts about Dontos.  She did make the right decision because he was not fit to protect her at that point.  So he really didn't abandon her, she turned him down and he left thinking she rejected him because she was still scared of him.

Maybe--but that's not how she thinks of him in the moment with Robin's kiss. "He took from me and left me with nothing"--that's not a positive assessment.

Maybe that assessment will change is she can see him again. But for now, he really seems to be on her list of "disappointments," regardless of how accurate her assessment may be.

On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

When they do meet again, Sandor does know who betrayed her father and maybe what really happened to Jeyne Poole.  Plus he did try to take care of Arya even after the RW. 

True--though Sansa's actually heard who betrayed her father and set the whole mess up--at the Moon Door Confessional. She's just got to process it. I assume it will happen at some point--it's a big loose end in the narrative otherwise. 

But I could see the Hound's knowledge being "corroborated" by her memories of the Moon Door "who gets to die?" party.

On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Yeah, she does have initial wildling prejudice, but by that point I know she's kinda gotten beyond appearances.  The fact that she was married to Tyrion that armed the clans with steel could prove a useful bit of information.  The clans are descendants of First Men nobility that owned the Vale before the Andals invaded and who never bent the knee.  They've been wanting to reclaim their home ever since but lacked resources and numbers to do so.  I think Sansa could broker a peace with the Yohn Royce to take back control on Sweetrobin's behalf.  Added bonus... Timett is leader of the Burned Men, who burned out his own eye to prove his ferocity and fearlessness.  I wonder how'd they react if they saw Sansa with her own burned man at her side as well as being the former wife of the "half-man." 

Yes--this is one of the reasons I can't rule this theory out. And we've even got a potential parallel/echo: the Northern Clans' loyalty to "The Ned" and the Mountain Clans potential loyalty to Tyrion. 

If they do play a role, I'm assuming they, too, could very well have memory of the Long Night. And potentially be willing to get Sansa where she might need to be in that fight.

Still--the Winged Knight and the Robin--that's Sansa's influence in one go: Knightly belief and broken "animal" under the influence of a skinchanger. That seems like a more potent mix.

On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

She's using the stories of Artys Arryn, the Winged Knight, as a role model for him to aspire to.  She understands he needs to be seen in a dignified way by his bannermen to be respected as their high lord.  Think of her father's lesson of "putting on the lord's face" in public.  It's changing his image from infantile and feeble, to a young lord growing up they can rally behind -- remind them he's Jon Arryn's son.  That's the opposite of the puppet Petyr needs him to be.

:agree:

On January 15, 2017 at 0:25 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I agree with you on everything about pooling her resources and making her own alliances with people.  I don't know if it's going to be about saving her "sister" in Winterfell.  I think Petyr does withhold information for sure; however, if she met with Sandor she would know when and where Arya left him so that can't be Arya in Winterfell all this time.  Sandor might have information on what happened to Jeyne Poole.  I do think Arya will turn up again in the Riverlands, she's so connected to water, that particular region, and Nymeria's pack is there.  So we could have a triangle of regions that the Starks are going to be taking back, North, the Vale, and the Riverlands in their own respective ways.            

I could see that--except that Martin took the time to have Randa give Sansa that news about Jon Snow. And showed us Sansa's involuntary response to it--which may have given Randa more information than Sansa should want her to have.

Which means that gossip and news from the North is getting straight to the Vale. And to Sansa--whether Baelish knows about it or not. And likely to Bronze Yohn, too. And we have Sansa's dreaming about Arya and daydreaming about snowball fights with Arya, too.

Given all of those narrative pieces and the emotional pull of her sister (and even of Jon)--seems like Sansa's going north. If the Hound shows up with info--that might head her off. But her whole "plan" with Baelish is to regain Winterfell. She's longing for it, willing to go along with Harry the Less Than Impressive to get it. Throw in Arya--I could see Sansa ready to sprint north.

But I do think there's a good chance Arya's set to "cleanse" the Riverlands.

 

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17 hours ago, Isobel Harper said:

Classic placebo effect.  SR's symptoms from the condition he suffers from are getting better because he BELIEVES they will get better. 

I could see this--but might also be because he's getting away from the Eyrie--he stops hearing voices.

If that weirwood chair still has any power, Robin may have been under all sorts of weird (terrible pun) influences in the Eyrie.

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12 hours ago, Joey Crows said:

Littlefinger's tutelage combined with her loss of family and her direwolf have transformed her into a more realistic and hardened player in the great game. With her highborn upbringing, coupled with her maturing understanding of life, she has taken the steps to begin realizing that her future success is directly tied to her actions. 

Agreed--though she's still dreaming of Winterfell--both awake and asleep. And lets Baelish help her form and build her Winterfell tower--only then throwing it at him. 

So, for all of Baelish's influence, she's still willing to "use" him a little. And she's likely to choose what she wants not what he wants, when it comes to it.

12 hours ago, Joey Crows said:

Assuming she continues to learn and grow, she has the potential to be a powerful player in the future of Westeros.

Agreed--though I think her play will be tied to the Long Night and in the north.

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Sansa is happy in the Vale, she doesn't long for home or WF, and the WF she did long for before she made a happy place for herself in the Vale can never be again, as it was dependant on family now dead. She's not going north and she's not going to WF, the giant smashes her mock WF, that's not foreshadowing, that's backshadowing, that already happened. Her destroying the giant is the foreshadowing part. If it were the case her building WF was foreshadowing then WF will need be destroyed again, by a giant, a second time. Not happening.

She seems less happy than resigned. In her final chapter in Storm, she's longing for Winterfell and her family. She's almost in open revolt against Lysa--until the Moon Door mess.

And in Feast, she's hiding her true self best she can--but blurts out Jon's name and longs to see him. Someone or something from home and family.

As for the castle--I agree it's unlike to be "redestroyed" in real life. But she doesn't attack Baelish until she's "rebuilt" Winterfell and had him help her reconstruct that tower. Then--she throws part of the tower at him. Because he didn't take her home.

One way or another, Sansa really wants to get home. And is willing to use Baelish to do it.

9 hours ago, chrisdaw said:

Her training in the manipulation of men is foremost about Tyrion, others including Sandor are secondary.

Maybe--but I'm talking less about "manipulation" of men than "skin changing influence" on broken men.

In that sense--what Martin's shown us about the Hound, Lady, Robin, and the dog make it pretty clear she's "influencing" Hound and Robin.

6 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said:

Wow there is a lot of info in this thread.  Just wanted to offer a thanks OP, a lot of this I agree with, a little of it I don't but still find interesting. More importantly though, I think you've just made Sansa a much more interesting character to me.  I always had trouble with her chapters because I can't seem to relate to her at all.  That and I couldn't find the growth of character that most of the other POV's display.  It seems like I've been just missing some pretty vital aspects of it this whole time.

:cheers: Thanks! Sansa often annoys me no end. But the skin changing influence stuff at least interests me.

6 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said:

More credit to GRRM for writing a female POV that many guys (or at least myself) can't relate to lacking the requisite perspectives/life experiences.  It must take a tremendous amount of talent to write about deeply personal experiences from the POV of an opposite gender or sexuality.  I can't help but think about Robin Hobb. When I read Assassin's apprentice for the first time it seemed to capture so perfectly the way I thought as a child and youth, I was blown away when I got to the about an author section at the end of the book and found out she was a woman.

I can't say that you've made Sansa into my favorite character, but you've added a bunch of depth to her arc I wouldn't have otherwise found, so thanks.

HA! Sansa's not my favorite, either. Probably because I used to be a annoying teenaged red-headed girl. Thus, I frequently want to pitch her into a lake. Davos is currently my favorite. 

But I'm glad you agree that something about her is interesting. :cheers: again!

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17 minutes ago, St Daga said:

Interesting observation. Chosen, not by themselves, but for themselves by another power. Is that what makes them special, or are they special before they are chosen? So much mystery and mythos to this story!

Or--just utilized by another power after they get broken?

If so, sounds like they only get special (in the eyes of whoever is trying to use them) "after" they get chosen.

Makes me think of Bran's vision of all of those impaled people--failing to fly after being called.

And yes--lots and lots of mythos!!! Thus the fun.

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For practical reasons I cant get on board with Sansa taking wf.  While GRRM is not perfect about it, he does not completely ignore logistics or practicality.  The mountain pass is snowed in, meaning the Vale army cannot leave by land.  

They will have to go by ship, and gathering the number of ships needed will take time, just like gathering the army.  Sailing all the way around the Vale and up the White Knife will expose that fleet to winter storms, and take more time.

Meanwhile WF is set to fall to Stannis anyway, and 

Spoiler

the food setup seems to be tailor made for Sansa to rescue the Riverlands, rather than the north.

Given that, Id say that the Twins are a more likely target for the Vale army, landing through Maidenpoole, a much shorter and safer journey by ship.  The Freys killed her mother and brother, and when Corbray draws his sword while under guest rights one of the Lords Declarant asks if he is a Frey.  This clearly shows that the Vale already has a lot of contempt for what the Freys did and would probably be on board with taking them out.

Plus, we know that Jeyne Westerling will be in the prologue, and she is currently heading west with Edmure.  This seems to setup a rescue attempt that is doomed to fail, as Jaime doubled the guard at the last minute and ordered a dozen bowmen to surround Edmure and kill him at any sign of trouble.  With Bran and Rickon thought dead, Sansa would become the Lady of Riverrun by Tully inheritance.  

Add in the fact that Sansas appearance and ties to LF are comparable more to Catlyn than Eddard,  unlike Arya or Jon, and I simply believe her story lies in the Riverlands rather than the North.

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For practical reasons I cant get on board with Sansa taking wf.  While GRRM is not perfect about it, he does not completely ignore logistics or practicality.  The mountain pass is snowed in, meaning the Vale army cannot leave by land.  

They will have to go by ship, and gathering the number of ships needed will take time, just like gathering the army.  Sailing all the way around the Vale and up the White Knife will expose that fleet to winter storms, and take more time.

Meanwhile WF is set to fall to Stannis anyway, and 

Spoiler

the food setup seems to be tailor made for Sansa to rescue the Riverlands, rather than the north.

Given that, Id say that the Twins are a more likely target for the Vale army, landing through Maidenpoole, a much shorter and safer journey by ship.  The Freys killed her mother and brother, and when Corbray draws his sword while under guest rights one of the Lords Declarant asks if he is a Frey.  This clearly shows that the Vale already has a lot of contempt for what the Freys did and would probably be on board with taking them out.

Plus, we know that Jeyne Westerling will be in the prologue, and she is currently heading west with Edmure.  This seems to setup a rescue attempt that is doomed to fail, as Jaime doubled the guard at the last minute and ordered a dozen bowmen to surround Edmure and kill him at any sign of trouble.  With Bran and Rickon thought dead, Sansa would become the Lady of Riverrun by Tully inheritance.  

Add in the fact that Sansas appearance and ties to LF are comparable more to Catlyn than Eddard,  unlike Arya or Jon, and I simply believe her story lies in the Riverlands rather than the North.

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21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Very interesting--Martin's made it clear that skinchanger and skinchangee influence each other--all of that mixed up emotion. That could work.

 
 
 

It does then make sense why so often she is able to see through the Hound's nasty posturing to the pain that lies beneath.  When he tells her his story of his scars she becomes afraid for him when his "ragged" breathing suggests almost a panic attack that she calms.  Very much like Robert's shaking when he is afraid.  Touching the Hound's face at the Blackwater.  The physical contact seems to be important for her to influence the other person's emotional state.  What's interesting is you see how often SR and the Hound are initiators of physical contact as well.  She's a calming force that probably makes them feel better against all their anxieties that they were medicating with drugs and alcohol.  I think this also makes her a good candidate to play the role as a peacemaker, and not just because of political training.

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Maybe--but that's not how she thinks of him in the moment with Robin's kiss. "He took from me and left me with nothing"--that's not a positive assessment.

Maybe that assessment will change is she can see him again. But for now, he really seems to be on her list of "disappointments," regardless of how accurate her assessment may be.

 
 

I mean, in the disappointment there is a sense of missing him.  She wishes he were there when Margaery sends her the invitation.  When she says Meryn Trant is no true knight, she thinks the Hound would have laughed at that, like it was their private joke.  She compares almost every man to the Hound.  I think her disappointment is that there wasn't more after the unkiss.  Like I kissed the Hound and all I got was this lousy t-shirt (cloak) kind of thing.  :rolleyes:  If there's a sense of frustration in her, it's more like an itch that can't be scratched than anger.  This is all subconscious of course.  We're supposed to notice the pattern in her thinking and what it implies.  She herself hasn't articulated a feeling accompanying the thought.  It left her with a desire and high standard for other men that she can't forget and they can't measure up to. It's like Sansa being Loras:  no matter what anyone does, no one measures up to Renly.  And she did understand why he left KL.  It was the fire that broke him, everyone was calling him craven, and he felt like he lost everything.  So I don't think Sansa places it on the same level as her disappointments with Dontos and LF, which are flat out deceptions and self-serving manipulations.  With SR, as sweetsunray pointed out, it's a very Oedipal scenario and based on a naive fantasy that actually doesn't take into account the object's true feelings.  Or in another way, It's like she's playing the role of her mother Cat and SR is playing a young Littlefinger, but I think she has more awareness of SR as she's been the puppylove fool herself where her mother had not.  And I think this relationship with SR is teaching her about mature relationships and what's real.  I would consider her relationships with Sandor and SR to be complementary, not opposed.  

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

If they do play a role, I'm assuming they, too, could very well have memory of the Long Night. And potentially be willing to get Sansa where she might need to be in that fight.

 
1

Absolutely, wildlings know things the rest of the world has forgotten about the Long Night and greyscale.  They will also bring in new blood into the war-torn Riverlands.  But compromises on both sides need to be met to make it work.  No more raiding and pillaging.  Peaceful acceptance on the other side.  Plus there's stores of grain at the Gates of the Moon that will come in handy.  Added bonus... wildlings tend to be more egalitarian between the sexes in leadership than the rest of the world.  They would likely not dismiss Sansa on the basis of being a woman.  There's much potential in this set up.

21 hours ago, Sly Wren said:

Which means that gossip and news from the North is getting straight to the Vale. And to Sansa--whether Baelish knows about it or not. And likely to Bronze Yohn, too. And we have Sansa's dreaming about Arya and daydreaming about snowball fights with Arya, too.

Given all of those narrative pieces and the emotional pull of her sister (and even of Jon)--seems like Sansa's going north. If the Hound shows up with info--that might head her off. But her whole "plan" with Baelish is to regain Winterfell. She's longing for it, willing to go along with Harry the Less Than Impressive to get it. Throw in Arya--I could see Sansa ready to sprint north.

But I do think there's a good chance Arya's set to "cleanse" the Riverlands.

 
 

Oh yeah, the conversation with Myranda is obvious bait to get her to react to Jon Snow, meaning a lot of people aren't buying this bastard daughter BS.  Sansa is Petyr's blindspot.  And I love that George is including the story of the snowball fight and blows up the belief that Arya and Sansa just always hated each other.  I'm not ruling out the sisters will go North, but it may not be before they've completed their tasks in their respective areas.  In that case, it's likely the sisters will reunite first because the Riverlands and Vale are close to each other.  Arya spent so much of her arc in the Riverlands and Nymeria and Gendry are there, I think it's highly likely she'll be dealing with that region.              

                              

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1 hour ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

Add in the fact that Sansas appearance and ties to LF are comparable more to Catlyn than Eddard,  unlike Arya or Jon, and I simply believe her story lies in the Riverlands rather than the North

 

I agree with most everything you said, except I'd like to point out one thing about this.  Arya has spent a huge portion of her arc in the Riverlands making all kinds of connections with people still there like Gendry and the BwB.  She's a water dancer.  Nymeria is there with her giant pack.  She was there at the Twins during the RW.  Seems like she's most likely poised to return there to clean up unfinished business.  She may not look like Cat, but in reality, her no-nonsense personality and decision-making style is more like Cat than Ned.  Sansa has more in common with Ned in personality and he spent a good portion of his formative years fostered in the Vale.       

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On January 16, 2017 at 3:35 PM, aryagonnakill#2 said:

For practical reasons I cant get on board with Sansa taking wf.  While GRRM is not perfect about it, he does not completely ignore logistics or practicality.  The mountain pass is snowed in, meaning the Vale army cannot leave by land.  

They will have to go by ship, and gathering the number of ships needed will take time, just like gathering the army.  Sailing all the way around the Vale and up the White Knife will expose that fleet to winter storms, and take more time.

Agreed--the logistics would be difficult--though getting any troops out of the Vale in Winter will be tricksy, regardless of where they are going.

But we've been reminded of the ability to ship out of the Vale a few times in the novels. And reminded of Ned's flight from the Vale via the Sisters to get troops from the North down south--a logistical challenge that was managed after the False Spring failed and Winter returned.

And the novels have it made VERY clear that the Manderlys of White Harbor are VERY pro Stark. 

Not to mention making it clear from the Game Prologue that the Royces are tied to the Night's Watch. So, Martin's given plenty of reasons to believe they could go North, even in Winter, if so inclined.

Quote

Meanwhile WF is set to fall to Stannis anyway, and 

True--but Stannis is hardly having an easy time of it. And plenty can still go wrong.

ETA: Besides, Sansa doesn't have to take Winterfell entirely on her own. She could do for Stannis what Stannis did for the Watch--sweep in out of nowhere (in Stannis' perspective) and save the day.

Re: the spoiler:

 

That would also be helpful in the North, no? Especially given what the Boltons did to the glass gardens, etc.

 

Quote
  Reveal hidden contents

the food setup seems to be tailor made for Sansa to rescue the Riverlands, rather than the north.

Given that, Id say that the Twins are a more likely target for the Vale army, landing through Maidenpoole, a much shorter and safer journey by ship.  The Freys killed her mother and brother, and when Corbray draws his sword while under guest rights one of the Lords Declarant asks if he is a Frey.  This clearly shows that the Vale already has a lot of contempt for what the Freys did and would probably be on board with taking them out.

All true--but I can't think of a lot of evidence that Sansa's thinking about them. Arya? Yes. But Sansa's dreaming of being home in Winterfell with Arya. Of rebuilding Winterfell. Of rebelling from her aunt over being forced to marry--because she's a Stark! Even Baelish seems to know that one of the best ways to get her to go along is to promise her Winterfell--not Harrenhal. Not the Twins. Not Riverrun. Sansa wants to go home.

Quote

Plus, we know that Jeyne Westerling will be in the prologue, and she is currently heading west with Edmure.  This seems to setup a rescue attempt that is doomed to fail, as Jaime doubled the guard at the last minute and ordered a dozen bowmen to surround Edmure and kill him at any sign of trouble.  With Bran and Rickon thought dead, Sansa would become the Lady of Riverrun by Tully inheritance.  

A fair point--but again--any evidence Sansa's interested in any of this? Or getting news on this? She is getting news from the North--and responding emotionally even to Jon. Imagine Sansa's reaction when the news comes that Arya's been married to a Bolton--and is being abused. 

Quote

Add in the fact that Sansas appearance and ties to LF are comparable more to Catlyn than Eddard,  unlike Arya or Jon, and I simply believe her story lies in the Riverlands rather than the North.

I agree--but again--so far in Sansa's narrative since Storm, Sansa wants Winterfell and her siblings, not a new husband or ladyship of anywhere else.

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On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

It does then make sense why so often she is able to see through the Hound's nasty posturing to the pain that lies beneath.  When he tells her his story of his scars she becomes afraid for him when his "ragged" breathing suggests almost a panic attack that she calms.  Very much like Robert's shaking when he is afraid.  Touching the Hound's face at the Blackwater.  The physical contact seems to be important for her to influence the other person's emotional state.  What's interesting is you see how often SR and the Hound are initiators of physical contact as well.  She's a calming force that probably makes them feel better against all their anxieties that they were medicating with drugs and alcohol.  I think this also makes her a good candidate to play the role as a peacemaker, and not just because of political training.

:agree:

Though on the peacemaking--seems more like nurturing and caring than politicking. But that might just be wishful thinking on my part--I keep worrying about Rickon and thinking that kid (if he survives) is going to need a power semi-skinchanging nurturer to help him.

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I mean, in the disappointment there is a sense of missing him.  She wishes he were there when Margaery sends her the invitation.  When she says Meryn Trant is no true knight, she thinks the Hound would have laughed at that, like it was their private joke.  She compares almost every man to the Hound.  I think her disappointment is that there wasn't more after the unkiss.  Like I kissed the Hound and all I got was this lousy t-shirt (cloak) kind of thing.  :rolleyes:  If there's a sense of frustration in her, it's more like an itch that can't be scratched than anger.  This is all subconscious of course.  

Very possible. But she does call his kiss "taking"--he took a song and a kiss--at knifepoint. Which isn't longing for more of a kiss, really. Reads more like exploitation--even violation. That left her with nothing for what he "took."

But she definitely sees the Hound as more noble/knightly than the Kingsguard. I could see her wanting him back as a protector.

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

We're supposed to notice the pattern in her thinking and what it implies.  She herself hasn't articulated a feeling accompanying the thought.  It left her with a desire and high standard for other men that she can't forget and they can't measure up to.

Maybe--but not in this moment with Robin. She's not happy with either of them. Sees them both as disappointing. Neither is meeting a remotely high standard for her in this moment in the Eyrie.

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

So I don't think Sansa places it on the same level as her disappointments with Dontos and LF, which are flat out deceptions and self-serving manipulations.

Agreed--the Hound is more. . . .violent. Both in the Blackwater scene and in the grabbing and kissing her against her will (like Robin in her mind). Not the deception--just taking. Violence.

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

With SR, as sweetsunray pointed out, it's a very Oedipal scenario and based on a naive fantasy that actually doesn't take into account the object's true feelings.  Or in another way, It's like she's playing the role of her mother Cat and SR is playing a young Littlefinger, but I think she has more awareness of SR as she's been the puppylove fool herself where her mother had not.  And I think this relationship with SR is teaching her about mature relationships and what's real.  I would consider her relationships with Sandor and SR to be complementary, not opposed.  

Oh yes--it is mothering. But not very fulfilling--which is how she see her relationship with the Hound at that moment. Not very fulfilling at all (the mothering thing, not so much).

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Absolutely, wildlings know things the rest of the world has forgotten about the Long Night and greyscale.  They will also bring in new blood into the war-torn Riverlands.  But compromises on both sides need to be met to make it work.  No more raiding and pillaging.  Peaceful acceptance on the other side.  Plus there's stores of grain at the Gates of the Moon that will come in handy.  Added bonus... wildlings tend to be more egalitarian between the sexes in leadership than the rest of the world.  They would likely not dismiss Sansa on the basis of being a woman.  There's much potential in this set up.

YUP, We say Tyrion start this. And Jon, too, with his wildlings. And we've heard how Arthur Dayne did something similar with the commoners in revolt against the King--given them what they needed vs. just tearing them down. 

The idea that the Vale Clans might respond again to that kind of treatment in the face of a Long Night--that I can definitely see.

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Oh yeah, the conversation with Myranda is obvious bait to get her to react to Jon Snow, meaning a lot of people aren't buying this bastard daughter BS.  Sansa is Petyr's blindspot.

YUP! It' sone of the reasons I'm pretty sure Randa's going to tell "Alayne" any gossip she hears form the North. No matter whether Baelish likes it or not.

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

And I love that George is including the story of the snowball fight and blows up the belief that Arya and Sansa just always hated each other.

Yup. Sisters may fight, but that doesn't really mean hate. 

On January 16, 2017 at 4:51 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I'm not ruling out the sisters will go North, but it may not be before they've completed their tasks in their respective areas.  In that case, it's likely the sisters will reunite first because the Riverlands and Vale are close to each other.Arya spent so much of her arc in the Riverlands and Nymeria and Gendry are there, I think it's highly likely she'll be dealing with that region.    

I agree re: Arya. Her vengeance list alone seems to be sending her there.

But Sansa's wanting her siblings and her home--and getting an army and food north will actually help in the impending Long Night repulsion. Just seems like Martin's giving Sansa everything she needs--both logistically and emotionally--to go home.

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