Northern Lords

[The Fresh PtwP]

Aside from the Stark children, who are super competent the high born's and lords in the North are pretty underwhelming. Who was Robb to rely on?

The Glovers, Manderlys, Helman Tallhart, and Rickard Karstark are glaringly mediocre.

Greatjon is a formidable fighter but kind of a blustering fool.

Roose is cunning...i guess.

In the other regions you have seemingly competent commanders who aren't even LPs.

Forley Prester whom Jaime thinks would be an able Hand

Addam Marbrand is Jaime-lite with a tad more caution.

Tarly, Paxter Redwyne, Rowan, Baelor Brightsmile, for the Reach.

We don't get to see much but the Mallisters seem legit as does Tytos Blackwood in the Riverlands.

Same goes for both Royces in the Vale.

What i'm getting at is if I was a general I could entrust those men with troops and rest easy knowing they're not going to do something extremely stupid, Robb did not have that luxury...what gives?

[Free Northman Reborn]

I have thought along these lines before, but don't think it is a uniquely northern phenomenon.

The likes of the Greatjon, Rickard Karstark and Maege Mormont seem like very competent warleaders

They led the devestation of the Westerlands quite ably.

Glover and Tallhart also both appear to be capable soldiers, when given a task to do.

My disappointment is twofold. One, in the lack of dynamic supporting lords who can take the initiative and achieve similar feats that Robb could in a war situation. You think of Rand al Thor's Perrin or Mat or Lan etc who were all highly competent support actors to the hero. But Martin writes a different story, where character flaws are magnified and lead to tragedy, and where a youngish, brilliant and loyal lord of say House Flint of Widow's Watch, would have gotten in the way of his intended Northern defeat and nadir, whereas a largely absent and passive Lady Flint of Widow's watch serves his purpose perfectly.

The second thing that disappoints me is merely a further extension of the above. The lack of conpetent captains or castellans or whatever you call Jory's position in a House's administration.

We have a massive gulf in this respect (but this is pretty much across the board in Westeros). If I was a northern lord, i would move away from the apparent complacent and almost "hereditary" manner in which captains of Household guards are appointed. Immediately.

You'd expect your typical northern captain to resemble a Quorin Halfhand, Benjen Stark or Jon Snow. Or Mance Rayder before he left the Watch. Men who are among the most experienced, tactically astute and cunning practical exponents of military command you can find anywhere.

I'm not necesarily talking about them needing to be Maester taught in grand military strategy - although that can't hurt and is true in Jon's case. But they should be highly competent, cunning, suspicious minded and independently thinking military leaders.

By contrast, the best we have seen in actual fact, appears to be Steelshanks Walton, and even he seems like a mere un original "doer" rather than thinker, robotically carrying out Roose's commands.

Imagine Benjen in Ser Rodrik's place. Jon being trained to be the captain of Robb's guard. His future right-hand man. Quorin Halfhand as captain of the White Harbor guard. Mance Rayder in charge of Barrowton's guard. Etc.

Instead we have the nice guy but no rocket scientist Jory commanding Eddard's guard - apparently for hereditary reasons as a Cassel - and his buffoonish uncle or grandfather or something, Rodrik, making a hash of Winterfell's defense.

Without any major difficulty, guard captains can be selected and trained to be vastly more competent than the current crop, who seemingly fell into the positions as a favour to their families, and kind of just hang on to it until death or retirement.

Send them to the Wall for 2 years to go Ranging, then send them to join a sellsword company for two years, in Essos, for 2 more years. Maybe add some military campaigns of your own, to blood them further. Send them to the Citadel for some military theory training.

Whatever, just up the quality and experience, which is poor at the moment.

 

[John Suburbs]

You could probably say the same thing about all the other noble houses:

House Lannister has Crakehall and Marbrand, who seem competent enough, and then the likes of Clegane, Lorch, Swyft, Lefford...

Martells have the Daynes and Yronwood (although of dubious loyalty), but also the Ullers, Wyls and assorted mediocrity.

The Baratheons have some talent in the Dondarrions, Tarth, Selmy, Swann, but most of the stormlanders switched from king to king in the wot5k

And the Tyrell-Redwyne-Hightower alliance has its share of good and bad just within those three families, which are supplemented by the Fossaways, Florents, Caswell. Probably the only standout among the lesser houses of the Reach is Tarly.

My guess would be the Vale has the best collection with the Royces, Corbrays, Hunters and, of course, Baelish, but House Arryn itself is in pretty bad shape.

[Lost Umber]

Manderly may not be leading any armies but he seems a pretty good ally to rely. I'm looking forward to see what he does with the fleet he's putting together at White Harbour. 

At the Tower of Joy, the North lost 5 of Ned's close companions. (6 if you count Howland Reed). Presumably those were all experienced guys that Ned relied on and otherwise could have been there to help Robb. Lords Cerwyn and Hornwood were killed too early in TWO5K to know if they were able or not. 

Otherwise I agree with the OP.  Other than the Blackfish, Robb didn't seem to have anyone he could truly rely on  

[YOVMO]

18 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Who was Robb to rely on?

While I feel you are pretty much correct with your assessment of the Northern Lords, I don't necessarily think this is a bad thing. Roose being cunning was a problem. An army doesn't need a dozen leaders, it needs one. You ask "who was robb to rely on" and I would respond, it depends on what he needs to rely on them for. Who is he to rely on if he needs a brilliant military or political strategist...well, none really (which is what I take your point to be). However, Robb is Lord of Winterfell and then KITN. What he needs from his lords is that they are fiercely loyal to him and that they inspire fierce loyalty in their individual armies -- for that he can rely on almost all of his lords...at least at first. I often wonder how things would have played out in a hypothetical situation where Robb is a prisoner in Kings Landing and Ned is leading the northern Host south.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

The Northerners don't seem to be in general very bright but they seem in general to be dependable, strong, brave and very loyal. They should be given strict orders but other than that i feel like Robb had many Northerners he could depend on.

Robett Glover and Galbart Glover

Rickard Karstark and his sons are 

Wyman Manderly and his sons

Maege Mormont

Helman Tallhart

Jon Umber and Jon Umber

[The Fresh PtwP]

All I'm saying is when it came down to choosing someone to lead a goodly portion of his army it comes down to Greatjon and Roose, those choices are almost to the point of being unacceptable. Compare that to war counsels we've seen from Renly and Tywin. Even Stannis, we're given reasons why the Dragonstone area lords suck but at least Horpe and Massey aren't complete stooges. 

Here's what i meant when i said the lords i listed are mediocre,

Greatjon: Has some really bad ideas, attacking Freys in the middle of RL, c'mon. (I guess with RW hindsight...but its still a really dumb move.)

Glovers: Gave into emotions and got duped by Roose. 

Tallhart: wasn't his one job to sniff out any sort of RW type betrayal? Fail!

Manderlys/Mormont: Might not be that bad but wouldn't inspire much due to being fat/a woman.

Don't even get me started on the Cassels...

Yes other regions have their good and bad but there is a gap in quality.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

All I'm saying is when it came down to choosing someone to lead a goodly portion of his army it comes down to Greatjon and Roose, those choices are almost to the point of being unacceptable. Compare that to war counsels we've seen from Renly and Tywin. Even Stannis, we're given reasons why the Dragonstone area lords suck but at least Horpe and Massey aren't complete stooges. 

Here's what i meant when i said the lords i listed are mediocre,

Greatjon: Has some really bad ideas, attacking Freys in the middle of RL, c'mon. (I guess with RW hindsight...but its still a really dumb move.)

Glovers: Gave into emotions and got duped by Roose. 

Tallhart: wasn't his one job to sniff out any sort of RW type betrayal? Fail!

Manderlys/Mormont: Might not be that bad but wouldn't inspire much due to being fat/a woman.

Don't even get me started on the Cassels...

Yes other regions have their good and bad but there is a gap in quality.

Martin needed that for the Starks to be brought low. A bunch of brilliant, loyal supporting lords would have made that impossible to achieve.

Note that he does the same to Jon, when he needs Jon to be brought down. Prior to his assassination, his loyalists include a boy-whore in Satin, a lackadaisical, comical, but none-to-dynamic Steward in Dolours Edd, the solid fighting but nothing out of the ordinary in the brain department, Iron Emmett, etc.

A standard fantasy trope is for the hero to be surrounded by a diverse but fiercely loyal group of highly competent close allies. Martin withheld that from Eddard, he withheld it from Robb and he withheld it from Jon, prior to his death. Perhaps, upon Jon's rebirth and rise to his destiny, he will finally have that in Davos, Mance (perhaps), Samwell (now educated and no longer pathetic), demi-god Bran, super assassin Arya, and perhaps even master-politician Sansa.

But it seems the idea was to first go through the 5 year gap, and the Stark tribulation, before all of that comes together. Before then, our heroes were pretty much adrift, surrounded by less than ideal advisors and confidants.

[Canon Claude]

Guys, Wyman Manderly is the most underrated genius of the whole series.

Greatjon Umber isn't smart but he's one of the strongest fighters in Westeros. It took eight men to restrain him even when he was plastered drunk.

Robett Glover and Helman Tallhart were following the orders of a man who Robb put in charge of the majority of the Northern army.

Maege and Galbart haven't gotten enough attention for us to judge their competence.

Meanwhile the Northern clansmen all seem pretty competent, and loyal to the last.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

13 minutes ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

All I'm saying is when it came down to choosing someone to lead a goodly portion of his army it comes down to Greatjon and Roose, those choices are almost to the point of being unacceptable. Compare that to war counsels we've seen from Renly and Tywin. Even Stannis, we're given reasons why the Dragonstone area lords suck but at least Horpe and Massey aren't complete stooges. 

Here's what i meant when i said the lords i listed are mediocre,

Greatjon: Has some really bad ideas, attacking Freys in the middle of RL, c'mon. (I guess with RW hindsight...but its still a really dumb move.)

Glovers: Gave into emotions and got duped by Roose. 

Tallhart: wasn't his one job to sniff out any sort of RW type betrayal? Fail!

Manderlys/Mormont: Might not be that bad but wouldn't inspire much due to being fat/a woman.

Don't even get me started on the Cassels...

Yes other regions have their good and bad but there is a gap in quality.

Greatjon is the kind of guy you want to lead an army in battle. Big hairy dude who can scream very loudly and hew down lannisters with his bigass sword. Quite inspiring to have that dude as your boss i would imagine as a soldier.

The Glovers seem to be comptent and dependable.

Tallhart was supposed to ensure the loyalty of Frey but he really didn't have a chance at finding it out. He took Darry and inflicted heavy casualties on Randyll's forces.

I guess that Maege wouldn't be respected but she would bash anyone mean over the head with her clubb so i don't think it would be that big of a deal. I suppose you are right about her though.

Manderly's are fat and could lead to disrespect but they seem more cunning and calculated than the Umber's

I suppose you really would want a council with strict orders to lead the Northern Foot.

 

 

[YOVMO]

11 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Jon, prior to his death. Perhaps, upon Jon's rebirth and rise to his destiny, he will finally have that in Davos, Mance (perhaps), Samwell (now educated and no longer pathetic), demi-god Bran, super assassin Arya, and perhaps even master-politician Sansa.

While I won't totally rule this out, I think it is a bit too fox force five for our story. It isn't just Ned, Robb and Jon who are surrounded by bad advisors. I nearly every case where someone wields power they are surrounded by people who, while maybe great, are ill equipped to deal with what needs to be done. After the death of Jon Arryn Robert has no one who has the skills that he desperately needs them to have (either to rule in his stead or to keep him under control), look who Dany has...good people, but terrible for the mission at hand. I think Jorah in his armor with the Dothraki is the perfect analogy for being out of place. Doran, Tywin, Tyrion as Hand, Renly, Balon, Theon when he takes winterfell, pretty much everyone is either surrounded by fools or people who are good at the wrong thing....the only exception to this is Stannis who very well might also be the person in the best position in the 7K thanks to it.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

Am i the only one who thinks that Roose Bolton was the best man for the jobb leading Robb's foot?

You don't really want a brute like Greatjon running screaming into the Lannister's teeth and there was nothing to suggest that Roose was unloyal. House Bolton has been loyal for a thousand years.

[Free Northman Reborn]

10 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

Am i the only one who thinks that Roose Bolton was the best man for the jobb leading Robb's foot?

You don't really want a brute like Greatjon running screaming into the Lannister's teeth and there was nothing to suggest that Roose was unloyal. House Bolton has been loyal for a thousand years.

Yes. And from what we know, he had likely not turned against Robb at that point. That turning point was only reached after Theon took Winterfell. Before then he was keeping his options open.

So if his night march surprise had worked against Tywin, he might have been Robb's greatest asset for the rest of the War. And even after his defeat, he retreated in orderly fashion with the bulk of his forces.

Without significant cavalry, his chances were always slim against Tywin's strong force with over 7500 cavalry. Hence his roll of the dice with the night march idea.

 

[Coolbeard the Exile]

8 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes. And from what we know, he had likely not turned against Robb at that point. That turning point was only reached after Theon took Winterfell. Before then he was keeping his options open.

So if his night march surprise had worked against Tywin, he might have been Robb's greatest asset for the rest of the War. And even after his defeat, he retreated in orderly fashion with the bulk of his forces.

Without significant cavalry, his chances were always slim against Tywin's strong force with over 7500 cavalry. Hence his roll of the dice with the night march idea.

 

Yes the best thing he could have done was a suprise attack.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

10 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes. And from what we know, he had likely not turned against Robb at that point. That turning point was only reached after Theon took Winterfell. Before then he was keeping his options open.

So if his night march surprise had worked against Tywin, he might have been Robb's greatest asset for the rest of the War. And even after his defeat, he retreated in orderly fashion with the bulk of his forces.

Without significant cavalry, his chances were always slim against Tywin's strong force with over 7500 cavalry. Hence his roll of the dice with the night march idea.

 

What do you think would happen if Robb engaged Tywin himself with all his army?

[Free Northman Reborn]

18 minutes ago, Coolbeard the Exile said:

What do you think would happen if Robb engaged Tywin himself with all his army?

Difficult to say. Two similar strength armies. Robb with 23k men vs Tywin's 20k, but Tywin with 7500 cavalry vs Robb's 6000 cavalry or thereabouts.

It would likely have been a bloodbath, with heavy losses on both sides. And Tywin could afford that more than Robb could. Note that Robb's victories were all decisive, surprise attacks. He did not favour equally balanced engagements with inevitable heavy losses on both sides. He won by strategically picking his battles, rather than being very good in battlefield tactics against against an equally strong, well prepared opponent.

So a direct confrontation with Tywin early on would not have suited him. This changed after Tywin was isolated by the defeats of the Whispering Wood, the Camps and Oxcross. By then a bloody battle to put Tywin down for good strategically made sense. But not early in the War, with Jaime still besieging Riverrun.

Of course, by the end Robb had lost the Karstarks, Freys, Winterfell and the entire Glover force at Duskendale, so could not press home his advantage over Tywin.

[Coolbeard the Exile]

2 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

Difficult to say. Two similar strength armies. Robb with 23k men vs Tywin's 20k, but Tywin with 7500 cavalry vs Robb's 6000 cavalry or thereabouts.

It would likely have been a bloodbath, with heavy losses on both sides. And Tywin could afford that more than Robb could. Note that Robb's victories were all decisive, surprise attacks. He did not favour equally balanced engagements with inevitable heavy losses om both sides. He won by strategically picking his battles, rather than being very good in battlefield tactics against against an equally strong, well prepared opponent.

So a direct confrontation with Tywin early on would not have suited him. This changed after Tywin was isolated by the defeats of the Whispering Wood, the Camps and Oxcross. By then a bloody battle to put Tywin down for good strategically made sense. But not early in the War, with Jaime still besieging Riverrun.

Of course, by the end Robb had lost tge Katstarks, Freys, Winterfell and the entire Glover force at Duskendale, so could not press home his advantage over Tywin.

It would be so cool if we got a Greatjon Umber vs Gregor Clegane fight

 

[Mander]

I don‘t think it’s necessarily a lack of military leadership on the top level of the Lords. It is certainly true that most Lords don’t appear to have great strategic minds (even less then you are looking for political foresight), but most of the Lords seem to be fairly competent leaders for battles (tactical level). Strategy-wise, the North has Robb himself, the Blackfish, Bolton and Manderly, only the last two with significant political cunning. I have to agree with FNR that the main problem with military leadership is on the level below the Lords, meaning the heirs, brothers or castellans of the castles who were left behind. It seems very odd considering that every sane person would take care to leave their family and home safely guarded.

[Universal Sword Donor]

On 1/15/2017 at 4:30 PM, Free Northman Reborn said:

Yes. And from what we know, he had likely not turned against Robb at that point. That turning point was only reached after Theon took Winterfell. Before then he was keeping his options open.

So if his night march surprise had worked against Tywin, he might have been Robb's greatest asset for the rest of the War. And even after his defeat, he retreated in orderly fashion with the bulk of his forces.

Without significant cavalry, his chances were always slim against Tywin's strong force with over 7500 cavalry. Hence his roll of the dice with the night march idea.

 

The night march would have worked better if he hadn't given the Lannister forces, spread out over leagues of camp, time to arm, form up, and then leave the high ground to charge them -- something that will take them the better part of an hour. (IMO) once he realized he couldn't catch Tywin, he just sent men to weaken his rival and hoped something might come of it. To be fair, that was likely always part of his plan once he got the infantry, just not to that scale or that early

[Adam Yozza]

I'd argue that GreatJon is competent. He's not a military genius by any stretch but he'd be able to lead an army with moderate success. The same can be said about Helman Tallhart, the Glover's, Rickard Karstark and Maege Mormont. All seem to be competent commanders, able to lead in their own right and carry out orders pretty well. While strategy certainly isn't their forte and I doubt any would last a day in Kings Landing, on a tactical level they're sound even if they're not outstanding, on top of which they're loyal, brave, strong and determined. I'd say pretty reliable.  

Wyman might not be a very good battle commander; not anymore anyway; and while I doubt he could successfully lead an army, he is certainly a political master. And again, like most Northmen, he's pretty loyal to the Stark's, plenty brave and dependable and in his case we can add clever to that list.

Roose is probably the best commander Robb had after the Blackfish and; possibly; himself. Roose's field of expertise is obviously politics and manipulation, but if he had given his all to the Green Fork (rather than just doing the bare minimum and weakening rivals as he went) he might have been able to win (though highly unlikely) or at least deal more damage than he did.

Hornwood and Cerwyn died too early to get a measure of them. We have no idea what skills Ondrew Locke, Rodrik Ryswell, Lady Flint or Lord Flint have.

Howland Reed is as solid and dependable as they come. Strategy is a strength of his, as highlighted by the devastation he wreaked on the Ironborn at Moat Cailin.

Ser Rodrik isn't a commander I'll grant you, and he messed up defending Winterfell. But he was Master at Arms, not Captain of the Guard. His job was to train people how to fight, not defend castle's. I don't see what your issue with Jory is. He was plenty capable for the job and I'd say it isn't a hereditary position, since we have no indication of Martyn being either Captain or Castellan or Master at Arms. 

Mors Umber seems to be a decent commander too. Not all fourteen year old's can be military genius' like Robb and Daeron I; Cley Cerwyn was just a kid, as was Benfred, Brandon and Beren Tallhart.