Northern Lords

[King Ned Stark]

As Free North Man said, the Starks had to be brought low.  I'm reminded of Ned's talk with Catelyn, I believe he informs her to get word to Helman and Galbart, so I think those two were competent men whom Ned trusted deeply.  However, they are minor lords compared to the likes of the Karstarks, Umbers, and Boltons, and as I believe Free North Man pointed out, they were following Roose's order per Robb Stark, and Roose doesn't seem like the guy you argue with if you are beneath his station.

Oddly, to me at least, in aDwD Jon tells Stannis the Roose never gave Ned any reason to be suspicious, but his father never trusted lord Bolton either.  Why would Jon know this if Robb didn't?  Is it for plot convenience, or a lesson Robb happened to miss, especially considering Catelyn agreed with Robb's choice.

[The Fresh PtwP]

The only plot induced stupidity I'm willing to accept is Rodrik Cassel, Theon had to take WF and Ramsay had to be set up for the second act. 

As for Robb's campaign...the overwhelming numbers advantage of the Lannister/Tyrell force wasn't enough? GRRM had to make the Northern lords sub-par as well? What's worse is once Jon or Stannis rally the North these bums are going to turn into all-stars i can feel it.

All those arguing for the Greatjon, without RW hindsight the Greatjon has IMO one of the worst tactical ideas in the series, of attacking the Freys after the Jeyne scandal. That would've made sure Robb's army never saw the North again.

[Nocturne]

On 1/15/2017 at 3:46 AM, The Fresh PtwP said:

Aside from the Stark children, who are super competent the high born's and lords in the North are pretty underwhelming. Who was Robb to rely on?

The Glovers, Manderlys, Helman Tallhart, and Rickard Karstark are glaringly mediocre.

Greatjon is a formidable fighter but kind of a blustering fool.

Roose is cunning...i guess.

In the other regions you have seemingly competent commanders who aren't even LPs.

Forley Prester whom Jaime thinks would be an able Hand

Addam Marbrand is Jaime-lite with a tad more caution.

Tarly, Paxter Redwyne, Rowan, Baelor Brightsmile, for the Reach.

We don't get to see much but the Mallisters seem legit as does Tytos Blackwood in the Riverlands.

Same goes for both Royces in the Vale.

What i'm getting at is if I was a general I could entrust those men with troops and rest easy knowing they're not going to do something extremely stupid, Robb did not have that luxury...what gives?

Not really true now is it?

Rickard Karstark  was a competent battle commander to have in your army as he proved early on in the war. He was also a good enough warrior and had a good host at his disposal, and he was willing to back Robb up right from the start. It was Robb who lost this commander with his stupid honour related decisions.

Roose Bolton, now there's a man that understood how this war needed to be won, a great albeit dangerous asset to have at ur side but a great asset nonetheless. I have no doubt that Roose would have stayed "loyal" and kept providing ways to Robb to win the war if Robb didn't piss all over his wise council at every turn.

Manderlys a great guy (no pun intended) you want to have on your side when it comes to logistics, he has proven he can make a city thrive even in the north.

Then the rest who would be welcomed in the field like Glover, Greatjon and so on.

Robb had what he needed in terms of resources at the start of the war to win the north its independence. What he lacked is the ruthlessness to see it trough.

 

 

 

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

The only plot induced stupidity I'm willing to accept is Rodrik Cassel, Theon had to take WF and Ramsay had to be set up for the second act. 

As for Robb's campaign...the overwhelming numbers advantage of the Lannister/Tyrell force wasn't enough? GRRM had to make the Northern lords sub-par as well? What's worse is once Jon or Stannis rally the North these bums are going to turn into all-stars i can feel it.

All those arguing for the Greatjon, without RW hindsight the Greatjon has IMO one of the worst tactical ideas in the series, of attacking the Freys after the Jeyne scandal. That would've made sure Robb's army never saw the North again.

Not true. Rodrik isn't stupid, necessarily, it's that he was put in a position he was unsuited for. If you told him to raise two hundred men to go take down some raiders or bandits, then he's perfectly capable; as shown when he lifts the siege of Torrehn's Square and takes out the Bolton forces in Hornwood. Defending Winterfell; again, if he was under siege with a decent garrison then I'd feel safe with him in charge of the defense. Strategy is where he falls apart; he didn't think all the options through and thus didn't realize that Torrehn's Square was a diversion. That isn't stupidity; we see even Tywin make the same mistake at the Green Fork.

The Northern Lords aren't sub-par. Some are better than others, not all of them can compare to some lords from other regions. But you seem to be ignoring all evidence that people have given that contradicts your point. Bare in mind, Robb is pretty good but he relied heavily upon the advice of his bannermen. And it would make sense for the Northmen to fare better after Jon or Stannis rallies them because at that point they'll be fighting in Winter, which is where their advantage lies. It's not that the Northern lords (who aren't 'bums' or 'sub-par') are going to get a plot induced increase in skill; it's that Winter will hinder the other commanders in comparison.

GreatJon's plan to attack the Frey's after they started to desert isn't the best plan, but it was mostly thought up in rage at their 'betrayal'. Plus, news of the Blackwater probably hadn't reached them yet, so up til then they still controlled and were able to access the Ruby Ford without threat. So yes, in their minds they could still get back North.

[The Fresh PtwP]

4 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Not true. Rodrik isn't stupid, necessarily, it's that he was put in a position he was unsuited for. If you told him to raise two hundred men to go take down some raiders or bandits, then he's perfectly capable; as shown when he lifts the siege of Torrehn's Square and takes out the Bolton forces in Hornwood. Defending Winterfell; again, if he was under siege with a decent garrison then I'd feel safe with him in charge of the defense. Strategy is where he falls apart; he didn't think all the options through and thus didn't realize that Torrehn's Square was a diversion. That isn't stupidity; we see even Tywin make the same mistake at the Green Fork.

The Northern Lords aren't sub-par. Some are better than others, not all of them can compare to some lords from other regions. But you seem to be ignoring all evidence that people have given that contradicts your point. Bare in mind, Robb is pretty good but he relied heavily upon the advice of his bannermen. And it would make sense for the Northmen to fare better after Jon or Stannis rallies them because at that point they'll be fighting in Winter, which is where their advantage lies. It's not that the Northern lords (who aren't 'bums' or 'sub-par') are going to get a plot induced increase in skill; it's that Winter will hinder the other commanders in comparison.

GreatJon's plan to attack the Frey's after they started to desert isn't the best plan, but it was mostly thought up in rage at their 'betrayal'. Plus, news of the Blackwater probably hadn't reached them yet, so up til then they still controlled and were able to access the Ruby Ford without threat. So yes, in their minds they could still get back North.

1.) Rodrik's number one priority is the princes. Nobody should be able to take WF with 30 men. He took to many of the garrison, didn't even kill Dagmer, and somehow let Ramsay ride up to him and cut him down.

2.) I'm actually waiting for evidence, people repeating that Greatjon and Karstark are good competent commanders is not evidence. Give me some reasons why. So far I've gotten that he's big and fierce....ok.

3.) IIRC Clegane took the Ruby ford at about this time and regardless you cannot get to the North through the Ruby ford. It's too far south near the crossroads inn.

[Adam Yozza]

5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

1.) Rodrik's number one priority is the princes. Nobody should be able to take WF with 30 men. He took to many of the garrison, didn't even kill Dagmer, and somehow let Ramsay ride up to him and cut him down.

2.) I'm actually waiting for evidence, people repeating that Greatjon and Karstark are good competent commanders is not evidence. Give me some reasons why. So far I've gotten that he's big and fierce....ok.

3.) IIRC Clegane took the Ruby ford at about this time and regardless you cannot get to the North through the Ruby ford. It's too far south near the crossroads inn.

1) Yes his priority was the Prince's. But as far as he knew, Dagmer's force was the only Ironborn force anywhere near WF. As I said, he isn't a strategist and thus he didn't think of the possibility of Torrehn's Square being a diversion. In his mind he was protecting the Prince's, by eliminating the only enemy force that was anywhere near WF and at the same time defending loyal vassal's. Ramsay was only able to ride up and kill him becasue they came under the banner of friendship. Rodrik had no reason to believe that those Bolton men weren't there to help.

2) In GoT, Ned tells Cat to get word to Glover and Tallhart, indicating that those are two competent and dependable Lords. This is highlighted later when Tallhart, despite being vastly outnumbered, manages to inflict heavy losses on Tarly's host. Galbart Glover is considered to be lacking the Blackfish's brilliance but competent in his own right when he commands the outriders on the march to the Twins; he is also given a role of significant importance in the plan to retake Moat Cailin. Robbett is among those who Catelyn names as someone who could have lead the Northern army instead of Robb.

Both Bolton and Manderly are talented manipulators and schemers, with the former being a good commander as well; potentially the third or fourth best Robb had available. Barbrey is also a good political player. Both war veteran's

GreatJon, as I stated, isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but for leading men he is capable. While he wouldn't win battles with Robb's level of success he's loyal, fierce, dependable and a veteran of two wars. Give him a force of men and tell him to go kill another force of men and he'd probably be able to do it; he was, after all, the one who commanded the successful capture of the Westerlands gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep and the Pendric Hills, which you can bet would be well defended.

Maege is also given a vital role in the plan to capture Moat Cailin and also had an independent command on the Westerlands campaign.

Mors clearly has some strategic skill, while Whorsebane is; like the GreatJon; more a 'hit hard and keep hitting' type of commander, with the presence and ferociousness to make it work more times than not. Veteran of two wars. 

Howland's guerrilla tactics indicate an ability to successfully use the land to his advantage and the utter carnage inflicted upon the Ironborn at MC speaks volumes. Given enough time, Howland and his men could have retaken the Moat on their own. Those Ironborn in Feast/Dance (Can't remember which) were on their last legs. Veteran of two wars.

Karstark had an independent, subordinate command at the Whispering Wood (as did GreatJon) and also had a lead commanding role at Oxcross, before he led his own raiding parties against the western coast alongside the forces of Maege and Galbart. Again, a veteran of at two wars, in at least one of which he would have been a lead commander.

We know nothing about the capabilities of Rodrik Ryswell, Medgar Cerwyn, Halys Hornwood, Lord Flint, the leaders of the Clans, Lady Flint or Ondrew Locke. We can't make any assumptions about these men.

3) Clegane only took the ruby ford as the Northern foot crossed to head for the twins. The reason Robb couldn't use it was the risk that Tarly's force at Duskendale provided. You can get to the North via the Ruby Ford. Roose marches from the Twins to confront Tywin just North of the ford for the Battle of the Green Fork and it's where Ned and Robert crossed on the road to KL in GoT. It's also where Roose crosses before marching north to the Twins in Storm.

[Nevets]

On 1/15/2017 at 2:48 PM, The Fresh PtwP said:

All I'm saying is when it came down to choosing someone to lead a goodly portion of his army it comes down to Greatjon and Roose, those choices are almost to the point of being unacceptable. Compare that to war counsels we've seen from Renly and Tywin. Even Stannis, we're given reasons why the Dragonstone area lords suck but at least Horpe and Massey aren't complete stooges. 

Here's what i meant when i said the lords i listed are mediocre,

Greatjon: Has some really bad ideas, attacking Freys in the middle of RL, c'mon. (I guess with RW hindsight...but its still a really dumb move.)

Glovers: Gave into emotions and got duped by Roose. 

Tallhart: wasn't his one job to sniff out any sort of RW type betrayal? Fail!

Manderlys/Mormont: Might not be that bad but wouldn't inspire much due to being fat/a woman.

Don't even get me started on the Cassels...

Yes other regions have their good and bad but there is a gap in quality.

This is pretty much complete nonsense.  His commanders and others weren't perfect, but they weren't all that bad either.  Robett Glover and Helman Tallhart were obeying orders from the commanding officer, whose change of sides they had no way of knowing about.  Roose lied about Glover giving into his emotions to cover his own tracks.

Rodrick Cassell was played by Theon.  This happened because Theon knew him so well.  Frankly, if Rodrick had been moer cautious, Theon would probably have found a way to use that against him.   Tbh, Robb should have left a larger and more capable garrison behind as a home guard to forestall that sort of thing.  He essentially left Rodrick with no resources. 

The Manderlys appear to be very effective commanders from what I can see.    Yes there is good and bad, but I don't really see that they are noticeably better or worse than any other region.

[Free Northman Reborn]

I have to disagree on the Greatjon's plan to attack the Twins. The Umbers have been mentioned by some of their enemies as having a certain "low cunning". I believe Tywin or Cersei also uses that term to describe Tyrion. I take this to be a disparaging term for someone who you believe to be unsophisticated, and yet somehow manages to instinctively act with greater insight than you would have expected.

Simply put, the Umbers are quite astute at sensing threats as an animal would sense a threat in the wild, if you will. Maybe their harsh environment leads to a cynical approach, to always expect the worst from strangers, or to assume the worst outcome and act instinctively to eradicate the threat.

As it turns out, the Greatjon's much disparaged plan to attack the Twins immediately after Robb's marriage to Jeyne was instinctively probably the most accurate assessment of the state of affairs. He might not be skilled at subtle court politics, but he evidently understands base psychology and  primitive human motivations quite well.  Without articulating his reasoning, he probably thought how he would react to someone breaking a vow to him, and projected that potential rage onto the overly proud and prestige craving Walder Frey. And his assessment was instinctively that they should hit him hard, with all their strength and eradicate the threat before it could grow any stronger.

If that had happened, ironically, Robb would not have been worse off than after the Red Wedding, and quite possibly would have been much, much better off. The war for the Riverlands would have been lost - it was frankly already lost at that point - but the Twins would have been broken, the Red Wedding unwittingly avoided, and Robb would have had perhaps 10,000 men to return North with, to regain his homeland.

Not a victory over the Lannisters, but still, a return North and restoration of his homeland, with most of his loyal lords and veteran troops still available to him.

Now, I'm not saying the Greatjon envisaged all of this like a master strategist. But I am saying his instinct was correct, and would have led to the best possible outcome for Robb, and the North, in hindsight. So a certain "low cunning" indeed. Something I expect more of, once the Greatjon is freed and returns to the North in Winds.

[Adam Yozza]

50 minutes ago, Free Northman Reborn said:

I have to disagree on the Greatjon's plan to attack the Twins. The Umbers have been mentioned by some of their enemies as having a certain "low cunning". I believe Tywin or Cersei also uses that term to describe Tyrion. I take this to be a disparaging term for someone who you believe to be unsophisticated, and yet somehow manages to instinctively act with greater insight than you would have expected.

Simply put, the Umbers are quite astute at sensing threats as an animal would sense a threat in the wild, if you will. Maybe their harsh environment leads to a cynical approach, to always expect the worst from strangers, or to assume the worst outcome and act instinctively to eradicate the threat.

As it turns out, the Greatjon's much disparaged plan to attack the Twins immediately after Robb's marriage to Jeyne was instinctively probably the most accurate assessment of the state of affairs. He might not be skilled at subtle court politics, but he evidently understands base psychology and  primitive human motivations quite well.  Without articulating his reasoning, he probably thought how he would react to someone breaking a vow to him, and projected that potential rage onto the overly proud and prestige craving Walder Frey. And his assessment was instinctively that they should hit him hard, with all their strength and eradicate the threat before it could grow any stronger.

If that had happened, ironically, Robb would not have been worse off than after the Red Wedding, and quite possibly would have been much, much better off. The war for the Riverlands would have been lost - it was frankly already lost at that point - but the Twins would have been broken, the Red Wedding unwittingly avoided, and Robb would have had perhaps 10,000 men to return North with, to regain his homeland.

Not a victory over the Lannisters, but still, a return North and restoration of his homeland, with most of his loyal lords and veteran troops still available to him.

Now, I'm not saying the Greatjon envisaged all of this like a master strategist. But I am saying his instinct was correct, and would have led to the best possible outcome for Robb, and the North, in hindsight. So a certain "low cunning" indeed. Something I expect more of, once the Greatjon is freed and returns to the North in Winds.

I'd say this is a pretty good assessment of GreatJon's idea and his reasoning. It's not an angle I'd considered before, and I'd always attributed the 'low cunning' comment to Mors and never really tried to attribute it to Jon. So well done on picking up on this.

[Mander]

8 hours ago, Nevets said:

Rodrick Cassell was played by Theon.  This happened because Theon knew him so well.  Frankly, if Rodrick had been moer cautious, Theon would probably have found a way to use that against him.   Tbh, Robb should have left a larger and more capable garrison behind as a home guard to forestall that sort of thing.  He essentially left Rodrick with no resources. 

Sure, Robb took most of the capable men with him but the problem started way before that point and extended long after it.

After Ned left for Kings Landing, Cassell was still master-at-arms and it was his obligation to train new men for the garrison. But first chance he got, he jumped the opportunity to go to KL with Catelyn and while it is a noble thing to do it wasn't his duty. He should have stayed to train troops and one of the guards should have accompanied Lady Catelyn. Even after returning to Winterfell from Moat Caillin he had about 7 months to train more men. The most tragic thing is, that you don't need super-trained fighters to keep a safe watch on Winterfell. He could have placed some older peasant boys on the walls with minimal training to keep an eye on the surrounding area to raise the alarm and get the few capable troops of the garrison to the right side of Winterfell to counter Theons attack. All those points are the most basic actions you have to take to ensure the castles safety. In medieval times you always had to watch your back because a threat could constantly appear from nowhere. I mean even the harvest was already over, so there should have been enough men or boys available.

@FNR great post! It's a natural thing to eliminate a possible threat before it occurs and which is sitting right behind you and blocking your only escape route back home.

[Universal Sword Donor]

12 hours ago, Nevets said:

This is pretty much complete nonsense.  His commanders and others weren't perfect, but they weren't all that bad either.  Robett Glover and Helman Tallhart were obeying orders from the commanding officer, whose change of sides they had no way of knowing about.  Roose lied about Glover giving into his emotions to cover his own tracks.

Rodrick Cassell was played by Theon.  This happened because Theon knew him so well.  Frankly, if Rodrick had been moer cautious, Theon would probably have found a way to use that against him.   Tbh, Robb should have left a larger and more capable garrison behind as a home guard to forestall that sort of thing.  He essentially left Rodrick with no resources. 

The Manderlys appear to be very effective commanders from what I can see.    Yes there is good and bad, but I don't really see that they are noticeably better or worse than any other region.

Whether or not Rodrik got played by Theon, he absolutely toted the moron rock down into the plot blackhole of stupidity. The princes were of paramount importance, so leaving behind enough men to properly garrison and defend the fortress holding them is his biggest priority. The people defending WF have to prevent men from climbing an 80 foot wall, swimming across a giant moat, and then climbing a f*cking 100 foot wall. That's something I'd expect a 12 year old to be able to do, let alone a grown man. Rodrik had 900 men at his disposal. Leaving fifty behind as garrison is the least he could do. 

Responding to the threat was the right thing to do but not at the expense of laughably trying to protect / protecting the most valuable thing in your king's control. You don't even have to assume Theon is going to trick him. The whole point of having that garrison is if someone randomly decides to attack. An attack on WF vs TS is not a zero-zum game. Tywin is perfectly capable of sending a few Fair Isle galleys up the stony shore and having them raid all through the North. 

That said, the guards deserve a lot of that blame too. No matter how minimal the complement of guardsmen or men-at-arms was, they dropped the ball. If they have people on duty patrolling at minimally reasonably intervals and/or paying attention from the gatehouses, there is absolutely no way the IB get past both walls and the moat.

[The Fresh PtwP]

On 1/20/2017 at 3:22 PM, Adam Yozza said:

1) Yes his priority was the Prince's. But as far as he knew, Dagmer's force was the only Ironborn force anywhere near WF. As I said, he isn't a strategist and thus he didn't think of the possibility of Torrehn's Square being a diversion. In his mind he was protecting the Prince's, by eliminating the only enemy force that was anywhere near WF and at the same time defending loyal vassal's. Ramsay was only able to ride up and kill him becasue they came under the banner of friendship. Rodrik had no reason to believe that those Bolton men weren't there to help.

2) In GoT, Ned tells Cat to get word to Glover and Tallhart, indicating that those are two competent and dependable Lords. This is highlighted later when Tallhart, despite being vastly outnumbered, manages to inflict heavy losses on Tarly's host. Galbart Glover is considered to be lacking the Blackfish's brilliance but competent in his own right when he commands the outriders on the march to the Twins; he is also given a role of significant importance in the plan to retake Moat Cailin. Robbett is among those who Catelyn names as someone who could have lead the Northern army instead of Robb.

Both Bolton and Manderly are talented manipulators and schemers, with the former being a good commander as well; potentially the third or fourth best Robb had available. Barbrey is also a good political player. Both war veteran's

GreatJon, as I stated, isn't the sharpest tool in the shed but for leading men he is capable. While he wouldn't win battles with Robb's level of success he's loyal, fierce, dependable and a veteran of two wars. Give him a force of men and tell him to go kill another force of men and he'd probably be able to do it; he was, after all, the one who commanded the successful capture of the Westerlands gold mines at Castamere, Nunn's Deep and the Pendric Hills, which you can bet would be well defended.

Maege is also given a vital role in the plan to capture Moat Cailin and also had an independent command on the Westerlands campaign.

Mors clearly has some strategic skill, while Whorsebane is; like the GreatJon; more a 'hit hard and keep hitting' type of commander, with the presence and ferociousness to make it work more times than not. Veteran of two wars. 

Howland's guerrilla tactics indicate an ability to successfully use the land to his advantage and the utter carnage inflicted upon the Ironborn at MC speaks volumes. Given enough time, Howland and his men could have retaken the Moat on their own. Those Ironborn in Feast/Dance (Can't remember which) were on their last legs. Veteran of two wars.

Karstark had an independent, subordinate command at the Whispering Wood (as did GreatJon) and also had a lead commanding role at Oxcross, before he led his own raiding parties against the western coast alongside the forces of Maege and Galbart. Again, a veteran of at two wars, in at least one of which he would have been a lead commander.

We know nothing about the capabilities of Rodrik Ryswell, Medgar Cerwyn, Halys Hornwood, Lord Flint, the leaders of the Clans, Lady Flint or Ondrew Locke. We can't make any assumptions about these men.

3) Clegane only took the ruby ford as the Northern foot crossed to head for the twins. The reason Robb couldn't use it was the risk that Tarly's force at Duskendale provided. You can get to the North via the Ruby Ford. Roose marches from the Twins to confront Tywin just North of the ford for the Battle of the Green Fork and it's where Ned and Robert crossed on the road to KL in GoT. It's also where Roose crosses before marching north to the Twins in Storm.

The bolded I have issue with,

1.) I'm sorry but no, thirty men took Winterfell it doesn't take a strategist to leave enough men to handle a force so small, especially with the less than stellar neighborly relations with the Boltons and later the Karstarks. Even if it took time he should have gathered a few more swords to defend essentially the kingdom. That was a huge blow both emotionally and PR wise to Robb he became the King who lost the North because WF was taken. Now for the Bolton men...Cassel just executed "Ramsey" for his crimes, the Boltons are NOT your friend at this point and anyone with any sort of wits would know that.

2.) Ok you make some valid points, I would just address two things, one, having an important job, does not necessarily make the person important or competent, just because they had a command doesn't mean they are anything special, just the best of available choices. Number two is the well defended part, after Oxcross nothing in the west was what one could call well defended the Lannisters have a finite amount of men just as Robb does and after three losses it was running low, remember how many swords Jeyne brought to the table, I would be surprised if any of the holdfasts taken had many more than that.

3.) Can you get to the North through the Ruby Ford without crossing the Twins? We were discussing the validity of Greatjon's plan to attack the Freys in the middle of the RLs and that's what I was getting at, The Crossing would be forever closed to them if they would've acted on the Greatjon's plan.

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you." Cat II ASoS

[Adam Yozza]

On 24/01/2017 at 11:46 PM, The Fresh PtwP said:

The bolded I have issue with,

1.) I'm sorry but no, thirty men took Winterfell it doesn't take a strategist to leave enough men to handle a force so small, especially with the less than stellar neighborly relations with the Boltons and later the Karstarks. Even if it took time he should have gathered a few more swords to defend essentially the kingdom. That was a huge blow both emotionally and PR wise to Robb he became the King who lost the North because WF was taken. Now for the Bolton men...Cassel just executed "Ramsey" for his crimes, the Boltons are NOT your friend at this point and anyone with any sort of wits would know that.

2.) Ok you make some valid points, I would just address two things, one, having an important job, does not necessarily make the person important or competent, just because they had a command doesn't mean they are anything special, just the best of available choices. Number two is the well defended part, after Oxcross nothing in the west was what one could call well defended the Lannisters have a finite amount of men just as Robb does and after three losses it was running low, remember how many swords Jeyne brought to the table, I would be surprised if any of the holdfasts taken had many more than that.

3.) Can you get to the North through the Ruby Ford without crossing the Twins? We were discussing the validity of Greatjon's plan to attack the Freys in the middle of the RLs and that's what I was getting at, The Crossing would be forever closed to them if they would've acted on the Greatjon's plan.

"Fighting your own in the midst of your enemies?" she said. "It would have been the end of you." Cat II ASoS

1) I agree he should have left more men, that was a rookie error. I would point out though that at the time relations with the Bolton's; while not great; were fine and the Karstark situation didn't happen until after Rodrik's death. He didn't have more time; every second wasted was more time for Dagmer to harm the Tallhart's; loyal vassal's who relied on Winterfell for protection while their own men were away. Once again, Rodrik isn't a commander; he's a soldier and medieval drill sergeant. If you give him a job and a battlefield command, he's perfectly competent but he's not one to think of strategy. He didn't think of the possibility that Torrehn's Square might have been designed to lure him out. Should he have left more men behind? Yes, absolutely. But organizing the guard rotation would be a job for the Captain of the Guard, who died in KL (Jory), who's second in command (Alyn) died on the Mummer's ford and third in command is with Robb (Hal).

Roose, if I'm not mistaken, openly condemned Ramsay's actions when he heard about them (perhaps only for show) but in theory the Boltons were still friendly with the Stark's.

2. I agree with your first point, though I'd disagree on this applying to the example's I listed. They not only had important job's but did them well. As to the second....nothing in the west was particularly well defended (except for the Rock and Lannisport) but out of everywhere bar those locations the mines would have the most defense, I'd imagine.

3) Yes you can. The Ruby Ford, weirdly, is just before the Trident splits into the three forks. Therefore, if you follow the Kingsroad from near the Ruby Ford, you'll pass through Lord Harroway's Town, head up the east side of the Green Fork, pass the Twins and then reach the Neck. I didn't say I agreed with his plan; though with RW hindsight I would; but I was disagreeing with your point that it would cut them off from the North.

[Universal Sword Donor]

3 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

3) Yes you can. The Ruby Ford, weirdly, is just before the Trident splits into the three forks. Therefore, if you follow the Kingsroad from near the Ruby Ford, you'll pass through Lord Harroway's Town, head up the east side of the Green Fork, pass the Twins and then reach the Neck. I didn't say I agreed with his plan; though with RW hindsight I would; but I was disagreeing with your point that it would cut them off from the North.

The problem with going south is that it puts you very close to Tywin's army, exactly what Robb needs and wants to avoid. His army is outnumbers 2:1 or 3:1 by Tywin's army. Especially with the River as high as it is, the Twins are the only practical route back to the North that doesn't expose them to utter annihilation.

Now whether Robb actually needs the Frey men is up for debate -- I don't think he needs them because he knows that 90% of the IB are gone -- but they are definitely welcome to augment his admittedly smaller forces.

[Adam Yozza]

56 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

The problem with going south is that it puts you very close to Tywin's army, exactly what Robb needs and wants to avoid. His army is outnumbers 2:1 or 3:1 by Tywin's army. Especially with the River as high as it is, the Twins are the only practical route back to the North that doesn't expose them to utter annihilation.

Now whether Robb actually needs the Frey men is up for debate -- I don't think he needs them because he knows that 90% of the IB are gone -- but they are definitely welcome to augment his admittedly smaller forces.

I was simply saying that even if the Twins was denied to the Northmen, there was a route back home they could use. Though you are correct, there would be a massive risk. Though, Robb's cavalry force riding from Riverrun could probably reach the ford before Tywin's army could march from Kings Landing if they rode hard, and Robb's infantry definitely could.

To fight the Ironborn, he doesn't need them no. He would need them, and the Vale, and every spare man in both the North and Riverlands if he wanted to continue his fight against the South.

[Universal Sword Donor]

18 minutes ago, Adam Yozza said:

I was simply saying that even if the Twins was denied to the Northmen, there was a route back home they could use. Though you are correct, there would be a massive risk. Though, Robb's cavalry force riding from Riverrun could probably reach the ford before Tywin's army could march from Kings Landing if they rode hard, and Robb's infantry definitely could.

To fight the Ironborn, he doesn't need them no. He would need them, and the Vale, and every spare man in both the North and Riverlands if he wanted to continue his fight against the South.

I agree very much, excepting that the cavalry would only be able to sustain that type of march for a week or 10 days. Any longer and the horses would start coming up lame. Also bear in mind Tywin has a cavalry host that exceeds Robbs by a fair amount. In my haste to post, I also forgot about Tarly's forces at Maidenpool. That is another huge risk they have to consider.

[Adam Yozza]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

I agree very much, excepting that the cavalry would only be able to sustain that type of march for a week or 10 days. Any longer and the horses would start coming up lame. Also bear in mind Tywin has a cavalry host that exceeds Robbs by a fair amount. In my haste to post, I also forgot about Tarly's forces at Maidenpool. That is another huge risk they have to consider.

Tywin's cav did exceed Robb's (though not by a 'fair amount'. Tywin's cav was larger than Robb's only by about 1000 men at the outset of the war but he's taken casualties since then), but if they rode ahead (probably under Kevan or Marbrand) then they would reach the Ford far ahead of their infantry and have to face the full Northern force, both foot and horse.

Tarly's force; and the rest of the Tyrell's; are indeed a massive risk, one that makes the Ruby Ford implausible post-Blackwater. However when Umber suggests attacking the Frey's in the West they did not yet know that the Tyrell's had joined the Lannister's or that Stannis had been defeated. Therefore, when Umber suggested attacking the Frey's for their abandoning of Robb, the Twins was not their only way to get back North.