The Grey Wolf

Discussion Thread for All Things Fire & Blood

51 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, The Dragon Demands said:

Visiting from another thread:  excellent work here.

Where do we stand on wordcount for each section?

  • GRRM mentioned that he wrote "about 80,000 words" for the Dance of the Dragons....I don't believe that includes TRP or the Regency, but I could be wrong (need citation). 
  • TPATQ is 30,000 words,
  • TRP is 10,000. 
  • Targaryen Conquest chunk from AWOIAF is around 10,000 pages (filled out). 
  • GRRM said he wrote 300,000 words on Targaryen history, but stopped with Aegon III.  Later he said 350,000.  Unsure what he was counting.
  • Recently he remarked that during his initial burst of activity he actually skipped over most of the reign of Jaehaerys I (by which I mean I think there isn't anything more than we got in the print version). 

    So what we need here are some citations.

 

For starters, what proof do we have that TRP wasn't in that wordcount? 

What confirmation do we have for anything else I just listed beyond print word count?  What was part of that initial 300-350,00 word burst and what wasn't?

 


 

(The full 80,000 word account of the Dance will eventually appear in a book, as yet untitled, that we're calling the GRRMarillion). (X)

Considering that the Rogue Prince does not detail the Dance of the Dragons, I would say that those 10.000 words are not from those 80.000 words on the Dance. And I see no reason why the Regency of Aegon III should be from those 80.000 words, either.

What do you mean by the first bolded statement? Is that supposed to be a word-count? 

As to the second bolded statement, we know there is a little bit more detail in Fire and Blood regarding the Quarrels, at least.

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I ran the "Targaryen Conquest by Gyldayn" section from an e-copy of the World book through a word count.  It comes to over 8,000 words...which I rounded up to about 10,000 or so we might expect at the minimum in Fire and Blood, give or take, and including stuff moved to the other regional sections.

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2 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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Love #9 though I'm a bit confused on #11. Care to clarify?

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2 hours ago, The Dragon Demands said:

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I think you're misunderstanding. Fire & Blood is to be a comprehensive history of the Targaryen family so it will include material for all the kings on the Iron Throne but as of yet GRRM has only written material covering the Conquest, Aenys I, Maegor I, Viserys I, Aegon II, and the regency of Aegon III.

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You misunderstand me....I didn't want to spell this out, but....

I'm trying to gauge how much material already "exists", currently, with no further work...so that if GRRM is struck by a bolt of lightning tomorrow, Elio and Linda and Anne could sort through it all and turn it into a functional book.  OR, more likely, if GRRM doesn't finish the main novels in the next 5 years, then when he's 80 something years old pulls a Robert Jordan on us, dies, and leaves "Fire and Blood" unfinished.  Comparable to how even Tolkien's Silmarillion itself - to which this has been compared - was released posthumously based on his notes and drafts. 

So, as it stands...

Did GRRM make 300,000 words or 350,000 words?  Assuming 350,000 from the beginning through Aegon III (and TRP was actually written later?)....we have 30,000 already accounted for with TPATQ....plus 10,000 from the Conquest....plus another few thousand on which "Yandel's" print material was based.

Given that the final version of "The World of Ice and Fire" was 175,000 words long.....am I wrong in gauging that "Fire and Blood" might span TWO OR THREE times longer than that?  Or need to be released in multiple volumes, like Christopher Tolkien's "History of MIddle Earth" series?

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33 minutes ago, The Dragon Demands said:

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Gotcha. My bad.

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On 2017-02-02 at 3:29 AM, The Dragon Demands said:

You misunderstand me....I didn't want to spell this out, but....

I'm trying to gauge how much material already "exists", currently, with no further work...so that if GRRM is struck by a bolt of lightning tomorrow, Elio and Linda and Anne could sort through it all and turn it into a functional book.  OR, more likely, if GRRM doesn't finish the main novels in the next 5 years, then when he's 80 something years old pulls a Robert Jordan on us, dies, and leaves "Fire and Blood" unfinished.  Comparable to how even Tolkien's Silmarillion itself - to which this has been compared - was released posthumously based on his notes and drafts. 

So, as it stands...

Did GRRM make 300,000 words or 350,000 words?  Assuming 350,000 from the beginning through Aegon III (and TRP was actually written later?)....we have 30,000 already accounted for with TPATQ....plus 10,000 from the Conquest....plus another few thousand on which "Yandel's" print material was based.

Given that the final version of "The World of Ice and Fire" was 175,000 words long.....am I wrong in gauging that "Fire and Blood" might span TWO OR THREE times longer than that?  Or need to be released in multiple volumes, like Christopher Tolkien's "History of MIddle Earth" series?

I hope it is, or it will be very difficult to transport and read. At least for me.

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On 1.2.2017 at 10:18 PM, The Dragon Demands said:

hmmm....Elio said that the Regency material is "nearly as long" as the Dance material (though whether he meant the 30 k print version or the 80 k unreleased version is unclear). 

He means that it is nearly as long as the uncut version, of course. I'm not even sure Ran and Linda have read TRP and TPatQ. They don't have to. They have the unedited versions.

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On 2.2.2017 at 0:18 AM, The Grey Wolf said:

Love #9 though I'm a bit confused on #11. Care to clarify?

Baelor being all this peace-loving guy? I was running out of creativity there.

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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I see. Here is what I came up with:

Fire & Blood (From their time as Dragonlords of Old Valyria to the Departure of Aenar the Exile and All His Kin)

The Lords of Dragonstone and the Century of Blood (From Aenar to Aegon I)

Aegon's Conquest

The Reign of the Conqueror and the First Dornish War (Aegon I)

The Sons of the Dragon (Aenys I/Maegor I)

The Great Peace (Jaehaerys I)

The Gathering Storm, A Troubled Peace, or A Court Divided (Viserys I) (Would include TRP)

The Dance of the Dragons (Would include TPATQ) (Aegon II)

The Labors of the Dragonbane (Aegon III)

The Conquest of Dorne or The Conquest of the Young Dragon (Daeron I)

The Septon-King or Throne & Faith (Baelor I)

The King Who Could Have Been (Viserys II)

The Lord of Misrule, Willful Misrule, or The Unworthy and the Good (Aegon IV)

Five Generations of Strife or The Blackfyre Pretenders (Daeron II/Aerys I/Maekar I/Aegon V/Jaehaerys II) (Overhead)

The Black Dragon and the Red (Daeron II)

The Chaos of the Third Century, A Realm in Turmoil, or A Crown Imperiled (Aerys I)

Order under the Anvil (Maekar I)

Tumultuous Reforms and The Tragedy of Summerhall (Aegon V)

A Monarch Tested (Jaehaerys II)

An End to Madness (Aerys II) (Would include a sub-section on Robert's Rebellion)

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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In light of that I really have to wonder if it is even possible for Fire & Blood to fit in one volume. The Dance, the Conquest, and the Regency alone number approximately 170000 words!

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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11 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The Gathering Storm, A Troubled Peace, or A Court Divided (Viserys I) (Would include TRP)

Why not just 'The Blacks and the Greens'? That would be very fitting since it would be mainly a story about these two factions at court and their machinations.

11 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The King Who Could Have Been (Viserys II)

I'm not sure Viserys II deserves a chapter of himself. The man would be a major player for the entire history of the reigns of Aegon III, Daeron I, and Baelor I yet his own reign should just be an addendum to Baelor's or a prologue to Aegon's.

11 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Five Generations of Strife or The Blackfyre Pretenders (Daeron II/Aerys I/Maekar I/Aegon V/Jaehaerys II) (Overhead)

Not sure we won't these people be featured all that much. They are important, but they are just a nuisance, not the core element of the later Targaryen reign. I thought they would be. I actually expected Aegon V's reign to be greatly troubled by the Blackfyres and one of those marriages he brokered for his children to have involved either a Blackfyre daughter or son in an attempt to make a peace and unite the bloodlines again. But for both Maekar and Aegon V the Blackfyres never were a real threat.

11 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The Black Dragon and the Red or Five Generations of Strife (Daeron II)

I'd much rather go with 'The Good King' or 'The Dragon in the Sun' or something of that sort, reflecting the union of Dorne and the Iron Throne in the title. Daemon's rebellion overshadowed all that but Daeron II was still a great and very successful king, much more than many of his predecessors and successors.

11 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

The Chaos of the Third Century A Realm in Turmoil, or A Crown Imperiled (Aerys I)

Hm. What about 'Magic Unbound' to refer to all that sorcery going on in that reign. Or 'The King in the Tower' due to the fact that Aerys I most likely did not attend court all that often, preferring Bloodraven to shoulder the burdens of day-to-day rule.

20 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

In light of that I really have to wonder if it is even possible for Fire & Blood to fit in one volume. The Dance, the Conquest, and the Regency alone number approximately  170000 words!

Yeah, there was already talk about that not going to work. One imagines that the tale is going to grow in the telling if George ever puts his mind to the long reign of Jaehaerys I or really flashes out the reigns of Aegon III, Daeron I, Baelor I, Aegon IV, and the Unworthy in detail.

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37 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

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On Viserys I: The Blacks and the Greens works well I'll agree.

On Viserys II: I was basing that off Yandel's whole thing about he could have been another Conciliator. At the very least he deserves to get his own sub-section.

On Five Generations of Strife: I too was disappointed in that regard. The Blackfyres were only a major threat during the First and Third, with Maekar and Aegon V's reigns seeing them as pests more than rivals before they once again became dangerous due to the alliance with the rest of the Band of Nine. Still, I chose that because of how that time period is seen as a whole if Catelyn's ASOS chapter is anything to go by.

On Daeron II: Ideally the title would incorporate the FBR and the union with Dorne as both define him and his legacy. So maybe The Black Dragon and the Good Peace?

On Aerys I: Maybe but Aerys's reign was also a time of wide-spread upheaval what with the plague, drought, Ironborn raiding, mass migration of smallfolk, and Blackfyres during the TBR.

On Fire & Blood as a whole: And that's before he gets into D & E and post-D & E territory. 

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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7 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On Viserys II: I was basing that off Yandel's whole thing about he could have been another Conciliator. At the very least he deserves to get his own sub-section.

That is basically the reason why I don't think 'Fire and Blood' should have a chapters for each king but rather chapters for important events. It might be pretty impractical to go by kings. You see this in TWoIaF when Aegon II gets a large chapter despite the fact that most of the content has basically nothing to do with his reign. It is a condensed history of the Dance, not of his reign.

7 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On Five Generations of Strife: I too was disappointed in that regard. The Blackfyres were only a major threat during the First and Third, with Maekar and Aegon V's reigns seeing them as pests more than rivals before they once again became dangerous thanks to the alliance with the rest of the Band of Nine. Still, I chose that because of how that time period was seen as a whole if Catelyn's ASOS chapter is anything to go by.

Well, but we don't really know what else is going to influence all those years. Aegon V's reforms and the petty bickering/hatred between Egg and Aerion during Maekar's reign might play much larger roles in the history of Westeros than the Blackfyres ever did. Hell, they might even have dominated the Third Rebellion where all those characters apparently played major roles. One could easily see Aerion trying to sabotage the Targaryen war efforts in an attempt to get Egg killed, or something of that sort.

7 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On Daeron II: Ideally the title would incorporate the FBR and the union with Dorne as both define him and his legacy. So maybe The Black Dragon and the Good Peace?

Here I'm not sure whether one chapter is enough. The First Blackfyre Rebellion could its own chapter, giving us both the war itself as well as the prelude to it, while the peace with Dorne and the reign and marriage policies of Daeron II could be another chapter. Hell, the Dornish peace thing could stretch back as far as the reign of Baelor I and recount everything that was done in that regard by Viserys II and Prince Daeron before Daeron II could finally go through with it as king.

7 minutes ago, The Grey Wolf said:

On Aerys I: Maybe but Aerys's reign was also a time of wide-spread upheaval what with the plague, drought, Ironborn raiding, mass migration of smallfolk, and the Blackfyres during the TBR.

The Great Spring Sickness hit Daeron II and the drought and the Ironborn raiding only seems to have been a problem in the beginning. Nothing suggests that the reign was all that bad in the later years.

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24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

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On Aerys: I doubt that his later reign was all that much better given the first half, the deaths of Rhaegel as well as Aelor, and the TBR.

On the Blackfyres: In that case wouldn't the way characters in ASOIAF talk about them not make much sense? Then again Ser Criston Cole was hyped up to be this powerful and controversial figure yet in TPATQ he is a chump so maybe I'm setting my expectations too high.

On structure: If we go by chapters for important events rather than kings what would you suggest the titles and organization be then?

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Hey guys. I jumped over from r/asoiaf (after waiting nearly a week to get my profile here approved) to drop a bit of info that you guys might find useful with regards to this conversation. There was a thread going on over there two weeks ago when everyone was speculating about what the story in Book of Swords would be. Another user and I were speculating about the length of the existing history novellas vs. the length of what Martin wrote for Fire and Blood, etc. Elio popped by and dropped a few facts on us. To whit:

* The text that The Rogue Prince is drawn from is called "Heirs of the Dragon". It's roughly 17,000 words in total, the majority of which is included in The Rogue Prince. It does not use any of the Dance material. 

* The text that The Princess and the Queen is drawn from is called "The Dying of the Dragons". Elio also said that the 80,000 word figure for the total material on the Dance has been a long running error and the actual word count is closer to 60,000 words, making The Princess and the Queen roughly half of the total story, not a third. This makes sense. Even though The Princess and the Queen has some fairly gaping holes, it always seemed crazy to me that it was only 30% of the total story.

* The text on the Regency of Aegon III is called "Aftermath - The Boy King and His Regents". It's almost as long as "The Dying of the Dragons". This is particularly exciting, at least to me. The Regency material was some of my favorite stuff in the World of Ice and Fire and knowing that we've only seen roughly 5% of it gives me a lot to look forward to. 

* GRRM mostly skipped writing a section on Jaehaerys I while working on the Fire and Blood material for the World Book. This was nice to hear, as I found the Jaehaerys I section to be disappointingly thin, given that it covers one-sixth of the whole Targaryen dynasty. 

Here's the link for that thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5qh7aa/spoilers_extended_the_possibilities_for_grrms_new/

Oh, one other thing: I noticed you guys mentioning earlier that Fire and Blood can't cover Jaehaerys II or Aerys II because Gyldayn died at Summerhall. I hear this said a lot, but there's no actual evidence for that right? Are people taking the fact that the Summerhall material in the World Book was burnt as proof of this? I assume that was just an out of canon trick to obscure what actually happened. We're not meant to think that Gyldayn was scribbling down what was happening as the place burned around him are we? I don't see any reason why Jaehaerys II and Aerys II wouldn't be in Fire and Blood. Seems silly of GRRM to release a complete history of the Targaryen dynasty that leaves out the last two kings. 

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1 hour ago, blackofhairandheart2 said:

Hey guys. I jumped over from r/asoiaf (after waiting nearly a week to get my profile here approved) to drop a bit of info that you guys might find useful with regards to this conversation. There was a thread going on over there two weeks ago when everyone was speculating about what the story in Book of Swords would be. Another user and I were speculating about the length of the existing history novellas vs. the length of what Martin wrote for Fire and Blood, etc. Elio popped by and dropped a few facts on us. To whit:

* The text that The Rogue Prince is drawn from is called "Heirs of the Dragon". It's roughly 17,000 words in total, the majority of which is included in The Rogue Prince. It does not use any of the Dance material. 

* The text that The Princess and the Queen is drawn from is called "The Dying of the Dragons". Elio also said that the 80,000 word figure for the total material on the Dance has been a long running error and the actual word count is closer to 60,000 words, making The Princess and the Queen roughly half of the total story, not a third. This makes sense. Even though The Princess and the Queen has some fairly gaping holes, it always seemed crazy to me that it was only 30% of the total story.

* The text on the Regency of Aegon III is called "Aftermath - The Boy King and His Regents". It's almost as long as "The Dying of the Dragons". This is particularly exciting, at least to me. The Regency material was some of my favorite stuff in the World of Ice and Fire and knowing that we've only seen roughly 5% of it gives me a lot to look forward to. 

* GRRM mostly skipped writing a section on Jaehaerys I while working on the Fire and Blood material for the World Book. This was nice to hear, as I found the Jaehaerys I section to be disappointingly thin, given that it covers one-sixth of the whole Targaryen dynasty. 

Here's the link for that thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/5qh7aa/spoilers_extended_the_possibilities_for_grrms_new/

Thank you for sharing! :)

 

1 hour ago, blackofhairandheart2 said:

Oh, one other thing: I noticed you guys mentioning earlier that Fire and Blood can't cover Jaehaerys II or Aerys II because Gyldayn died at Summerhall. I hear this said a lot, but there's no actual evidence for that right? Are people taking the fact that the Summerhall material in the World Book was burnt as proof of this? I assume that was just an out of canon trick to obscure what actually happened. We're not meant to think that Gyldayn was scribbling down what was happening as the place burned around him are we? I don't see any reason why Jaehaerys II and Aerys II wouldn't be in Fire and Blood. Seems silly of GRRM to release a complete history of the Targaryen dynasty that leaves out the last two kings. 

We don't know when Gyldayn died, and I agree with you that he won't have been writing down what was happening as Summerhall was burning down.

But we have been told that Gyldayn history goes through Aegon V's reign. (So perhaps that's where the idea comes from that Gyldayn died there?) Additionally, one of the last pages Gyldayn wrote was about the Tragedy at Summerhall, in which case it might make sense that he didn't write about the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II (especially the latter reign, for example because he might have died early in Aerys's reign).

Perhaps plans have changed. Perhaps not. And perhaps, whichever maester decides to publish Gyldayn's manuscript adds a few chapters of his own to the work, covering the reigns of Jaehaerys II and Aerys II. And, possibly, even make a few changes here and there. ;-)

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1 hour ago, blackofhairandheart2 said:

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Thanks for sharing this information! I'll admit the Dance being 60000 words total instead of 80000 leaves me worried that some of the glaring problems with it won't be fixed but we'll see. Also, The Heirs of the Dragon is a weird title given that the time period has nothing to do with Aegon I, Aenys I, or Maegor I.

Anyway, on Gyldayn: Basically what @Rhaenys_Targaryen said.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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4 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Thanks for sharing this information! I'll admit the Dance being 60000 words total instead of 80000 leaves me worried that some of the glaring problems with it won't be fixed but we'll see. Also, The Heirs of the Dragon is a weird title given that the time period has nothing to do with Aegon I, Aenys I, or Maegor I.

I assume Heirs of the Dragon refers to the Conqueror's descendants multiplying greatly during the reign of Jaehaerys I and indicating that too many heirs is a problem. I like Pax Draconia as the title for his section, but I assume Martin can't get away with introducing actual Latin into Terros.

 

As for the Dance material not being long enough to plug the holes...I agree there are a lot of them, but it doesn't strike me as something an extra 80 pages won't cover.

* There's whatever the Vale armies were up to during the war. We know Jeyne Arryn supported Rhaenyra and the Vale isn't the North, which is to say, they'd have had enough time to mobilize and enter the fray in the 18+ months that the war was happening. Of course, the list in the World Book of the major battles doesn't mention any happening in the Vale. I assume Corwyn Corbray was either leading this army or did something important during the war if he was able to swing an appointment as regent and a marraige to Rhaena Targaryen in the aftermath.

* The account of what happened to Viserys the Younger while he was in Essos. Seems like that table setting will be necessary given what a substantial role the Rogares played during the Regency.

* Perhaps a fuller account of what Dalton Greyjoy was up to? He disappears from The Princess and the Queen almost immediately after being introduced. Pretty much everything we know about him comes from the Iron Islands section of the World Book. His reaving continued well into the Regency, so most of that may end up being in that section.

* The Battle of the Kingsroad and the poisoning of Aegon II, which seem to be the only major events of the war to occur after Rhaenyra's death.

* More about Jacaerys Velaryon's trip to Winterfell and the Pact of Ice and Fire.

* The subplot about Orwyle and his account that he wrote while imprisoned.

I'm sure there's more I'm forgetting, but like I said, it seems like we got the backbone of the war in The Princess and the Queen. I think a double-sized version of it should be enough to fill in everything else.

 

 

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14 hours ago, blackofhairandheart2 said:

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On Heirs of the Dragon: That would make sense and Pax Draconia does indeed sound cool if sadly unusable.

On the Dance: Beyond that we also need to learn about what happened at the Battle of the Burning Mill and the Battle of the Red Fork as well as the other Lannister victories prior to the Fishfeed but in all honesty what I want to see most in the full text is for the Greens to actually be a credible threat and not the incompetent buffoons they are in TPATQ.

Edited by The Grey Wolf

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