Maxxine Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I know this has been discussed before but I wanted to bring it back up because I've just reread it and I've changed my opinion on it. So Ned completely ignoring Arya's story when she tries to tell him about Varys and Illyrio's conversation might be on my top 10 most irritating things in the book. I've read Game at least 3 times and it never bothered me before just now. Before I kinda understand. Arya doesn't really tell the story coherently and does just sound like a child making up a story to get out of trouble. So I gave him a pass for not really listening. But for some reason on this read I really paid attention to what what she said (not sure why it stood out to me this time, maybe because I'm reading it for the first time in hard copy). Her exact words were, "they said you had a book and a bastard and if one hand could die, why not a second?" Even if everything else is just a child's ramblings this sentence should've stood out to him. He had just acquired the lineage book, had just found Robert's bastard and he has suspicions about Jon Arryn's death. This statement should've clicked for him especially since the lineage book, Gendry, & Jon Arryn's death is not something Arya is going to spit out randomly or by coincidence. To make it worse, then Arya says "the princess was with child." Of course, at that moment Ned has no reason to think about this statement but then literally two pages later (It was the next day) Ned finds out Dany is pregnant. Nothing clicked?! Really?! Nothing?! It seems like at some point he would think to himself, "my daughter mentioned a princess being pregnant. Why don't I go back and ask her what she heard bc it could be related." Now I don't want to call Ned stupid bc I don't think he's stupid but he's something. I just feel like a lot of other characters (Catelyn especially) would've realized Arya really did hear something & she's not just making it up. The one thing I will give Ned is that even had he listened I don't know what he could've done bc Arya can't really identify the men. Although if she would've been able to describe Varys I think Ned had seen him in that identity before so he may have been able to figure out. But at least he would've been aware that someone was being sneaky and possibly Arya could've led him to where she was so he could know about the secret passage which may or may not have come in handy for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 You're not alone in this irritating. Ned sure does go against the grain and ignore signs. I think the problem is between Lord Father and mischief making younger daughter. It's not that Ned doesn't love Arya, it is that he's too busy to hear what she's saying. In 1 ear and out the other as it were. The sad truth is he might have heard if the story had come from an adult. Given our source of intel here is Arya, I'm not so sure anyone listened to her prior to Gendry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 This and Renly spelling out the knife plot drop my sympathy for Ned to basically zero. I understand she's young and mixes nonsense with the facts but she says alot of things she isn't supposed to know. At the very least he should've hired more guards "If one Hand can die why not the other?" is certainly the biggest red flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rotting sea cow Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 The Starks aren't the brightest kids in the block. Some of them, like Jon or Ned aren't far ahead of Victarion. They are characterized with a very straightforward way of thinking. Only Arya shows more perspicacity from the beginning. And after much suffering, Sansa. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Why are you surprised? Ned is a second son who lived in a medieval mindset. a- Medieval society didn’t like women messing up into politics, especially when they are young and rebellious. b- As second son, he was programmed to always know his place, to obey orders, to show absolute loyalty to his big bro and to let matters that require decision making to his brother. When Rickard and Brandon died, Ned replaced them with Robert He did the same thing with Lyanna when she voiced her concerns about Robert to him. As second son he had no power to stop the matchup but as brother he had the duty to voice those concerns to both his father and to his best friend. Lyanna was wild and unstoppable. Forcing her to marry against her will might have had some serious consequences in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_hart Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 What is so infuriating to me is that he could have learned about Cat taking Tyrion and the role of Baelish, if he had listened and edged her on, maybe even figured out Varys, learned about the secret tunnels / escape routes... It is a lesson for parents though, if your daughter comes to you agitated (after being missed for a considerable time) with a jumbled up account - listen first, interpret later! Arya undermines the story by interposing her interpretation for bastard, just saying monsters when she knew it were large skulls (Ned could have figured that out, I hope), when wizards, mummery etc. entered Ned completely lost patience and he got a very important visit right after. But there are elements to the story Ned should have recognised or even checked out later. And what difference even a little exploration of the secret tunnels could make later on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 It's a long time since I've last lead AGOT, so I might misremember some details, but here's how I understood Ned's reaction: I don't think he entirely dismiised Arya's story. But, he thought of her as a child (as she really was, actually) and didn't want her to worry or fear. He replied to her the way he did so that she could take the incident out of her head. But, right after that, Yoren comes with news of Tyrion's kidnapping. Things escalate quickly, too quickly, Ned is already out of depth and on top of that he's not given time to reflect on the incident. Ned's course of actions after that is but a frantic effort to react at multiple crises hitting simultaneously without really understanding what they are about and where they're coming from. So it's not really weird that he does not follow up on Arya's story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rusty Winchester Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 While I agree with what you are saying in general, can I play devil's advocate for just a second? Your post says that you read it twice before without it bothering you. Now I know Ned the character might have a more vested state in his own survival than you the reader do, but if you can skip past it without too much concern is it so hard to imagine that Ned did as well? As to the comments regarding Ned discovering various parts of this story to be true after the fact should have triggered him, that I fully agree with. It definitely should have. The only explanation I can come up with on that score would be that he never really heard a word Arya was saying, being too focused on others things. It's not perfect, but otherwise I have to accept that Martin goofed, which might reduce my enjoyment of the series, so I am going to hold tight to my delusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Well, Lord Eddard is probably one of the dumbest characters that have appeared in the books. Since he went to KL he made only dumb choices. Trusting Littlefinger, telling the Queen that he knew that her children were bastards, refusing Renly's help, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maxxine Posted January 16, 2017 Author Share Posted January 16, 2017 2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said: It's a long time since I've last lead AGOT, so I might misremember some details, but here's how I understood Ned's reaction: I don't think he entirely dismiised Arya's story. But, he thought of her as a child (as she really was, actually) and didn't want her to worry or fear. He replied to her the way he did so that she could take the incident out of her head. But, right after that, Yoren comes with news of Tyrion's kidnapping. Things escalate quickly, too quickly, Ned is already out of depth and on top of that he's not given time to reflect on the incident. Ned's course of actions after that is but a frantic effort to react at multiple crises hitting simultaneously without really understanding what they are about and where they're coming from. So it's not really weird that he does not follow up on Arya's story. I don't really have an issue with the way he replied to her in the moment. I understand not burdening a 9 year old with what it all could have possibly meant. It's more the fact that he never thought about again especially considering the full context of what he knew at the time and he found out afterward. And yeah there was a lot going on but I don't think that absolves of ignoring some good information. 2 hours ago, Rusty Winchester said: While I agree with what you are saying in general, can I play devil's advocate for just a second? Your post says that you read it twice before without it bothering you. Now I know Ned the character might have a more vested state in his own survival than you the reader do, but if you can skip past it without too much concern is it so hard to imagine that Ned did as well? As to the comments regarding Ned discovering various parts of this story to be true after the fact should have triggered him, that I fully agree with. It definitely should have. The only explanation I can come up with on that score would be that he never really heard a word Arya was saying, being too focused on others things. It's not perfect, but otherwise I have to accept that Martin goofed, which might reduce my enjoyment of the series, so I am going to hold tight to my delusions. I don't think it's a Martin goof. I think it's something he did purposely to show Ned's limitations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 24 minutes ago, Maxxine said: I don't really have an issue with the way he replied to her in the moment. I understand not burdening a 9 year old with what it all could have possibly meant. It's more the fact that he never thought about again especially considering the full context of what he knew at the time and he found out afterward. And yeah there was a lot going on but I don't think that absolves of ignoring some good information. It's not about absolving. After all, his fault or not, the fact that he didn't respond adequately to the challenges of the Game was fatal for him and devastating for his family all the same. It's all about understanding why he acted as he did, and -as per my reading- it was not because of the source of the particular information, but rather because of the cataclysmic incoming of information that all demanded emergency response. Kind of like, why sites collapse when they get too much traffic . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jthurman14 Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 I always assumed he had already heard most of what she was saying. Some from Varys, who would tell Ned things like Dany being pregnant to keep stringing him along. The hand being murdered and Roberts bastards were common gossip. I got the feeling she was not telling him anything new, that she just happened to overhear two people gossiping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 2 hours ago, ShadowCat Rivers said: It's not about absolving. After all, his fault or not, the fact that he didn't respond adequately to the challenges of the Game was fatal for him and devastating for his family all the same. It's all about understanding why he acted as he did, and -as per my reading- it was not because of the source of the particular information rather than because of the cataclysmic incoming of information that all demanded emergency response. Kind of like, why sites collapse when they get too much traffic . I generally agree with this assertion. To the OP, I agree that is is frustrating as hell as a reader, and as a parent. Ned is not a bad guy, or lazy father, quite the opposite really, but he is bombarded with a totally new surrounding where this man if ice is literally melting, and then piled on top of that is this whole new nest of King's Landing snakes he has to deal with. Ned does make an incorrect prediction earlier in the series because he thinks it is the correct answer, but we readers know better. It was when Cat asked if Gared deserted the NW because of wildlings and Ned responds, "Who else?" Sometimes Ned assumes he knows the right answer, but never with any malicious intent. Just like in this scene with Arya, who once again has a better idea than Ned of what is going on. Arya, like Bran, is already ahead of the training schedule. "You," Ned said, kissing her lightly on the brow, "will marry a king and rule his castle, and your sons will be knights and princes and lords and, yes, perhaps even a High Septon." Arya screwed up her face. "No," she said, "that's Sansa." She folded up her right leg and resumed her balancing. Ned sighed and left her there. Inside his chambers, he stripped off his sweat-stained silks and sluiced cold water over his head from the basin beside the bed. Alyn entered as he was drying his face. "My lord," he said, "Lord Baelish is without and begs audience." Note: Arya is having a moment of clarity here and is correcting her father. We can deduce this because Ned is using these words as fatherly solace to his daughter, and Arya is doing her water dancing training... which is in preparation to her future training at detecting lies. Arya tells us twice in the story, "Look with your eyes, Syrio had said, listen with your ears." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greywater-Watch Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 "We'll talk later." If I recal correctly he says this to Arya two times, but he never does, when he should have. Ned should at least have asked Arya to show him the place where she saw the two men. This might also have helped Arya to get some details in line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zandru Posted January 16, 2017 Share Posted January 16, 2017 Per Greywater Watch Quote "We'll talk later." If I recal correctly he says this to Arya two times, but he never does, when he should have. Tragically, Ned also said this to Jon "Snow" as he left for the Wall, promising that when they met again, Ned would tell him all about his mother. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snow Bear Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 21 hours ago, The Hoare said: Well, Lord Eddard is probably one of the dumbest characters that have appeared in the books. Since he went to KL he made only dumb choices. Trusting Littlefinger, telling the Queen that he knew that her children were bastards, refusing Renly's help, etc. Spoken like a real Hoare, but what does a Hoare know of honour... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sweetsunray Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 14 hours ago, zandru said: Tragically, Ned also said this to Jon "Snow" as he left for the Wall, promising that when they met again, Ned would tell him all about his mother. No, he didn't, not in the books. That's a show invention. In the books Ned thinks of Jon at the Wall while he's inthe dungeon, imagining he could talk to him, without mentioning what about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snow Bear Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 This whole debate seems a little too post hoc to me. We as readers know what happened (and what will happen), but look at the thing from Neds point of view. His daughter had been missing a whole day. Now she's back - what should set him in a state of relief and anger in the same time - and babbles a story of monsters, pregnant princesses and a hand that was killed. Remember that Aryas credibility had already been weakened by the Joffrey incident and her being gone for hours. Why should Ned expect any else but the figments of Aryas overflowing imagination? If you think about it, how probable was it, that Arya actually would find the way into a secret tunnel were she could overhear the two people who (possibly) conspired against her father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 1 hour ago, The Snow Bear said: Spoken like a real Hoare, but what does a Hoare know of honour... How so? Only honourable people trust Littlefinger? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Snow Bear Posted January 17, 2017 Share Posted January 17, 2017 23 minutes ago, The Hoare said: How so? Only honourable people trust Littlefinger? No but honourable people might expect honour in others (especially in those who have strong bonds to their wifes). Honourable people might also try to save the lives of children. Furthermore honourable people might find it rather dishonourable to attempt a coup d'etat while the king (and ones childhood friend) lay one his deathbed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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