Ser Scot A Ellison

Memory, Sorrow, and Thorn/The Heart of what was Lost/The Last King of Osten Ard

309 posts in this topic

So, when do we get to see the Keida'ya spaceships?

;)

(New thread... continue)

Edited by Ser Scot A Ellison

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3000 years seems way too short.  One of the elf cities got swallowed up by a glacier!

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58 minutes ago, Derfel Cadarn said:

3000 years seems way too short.  One of the elf cities got swallowed up by a glacier!

Glaciers, in the right climate can move pretty quickly.  Certainly quickly enough to swallow a city in 3000 years.

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Well, the online timelines one can find give other numbers. But they are apparently only non-canon although partially based on Williams answering stuff, like about Utuk'ku's age during MST being about 10,000 years.

By the way, I liked the nod to Tolkien with Khand and Kementari. That Khand realm was first mentioned in the new story, right? I don't remember hearing anything about that.

As I think I mentioned some time in the old thread: I listened to the German audiobook of MST two years ago or so, in preparation for the new trilogy before it was postponed.

I'd not recommend a reread, though, for people who more or less remember the plot. The most interesting characters are those that are the least flashed out. Those scheming relations of Miriamele in Nabban. The Norn Queen and her servants. Any Sithi that aren't Jiriki and Aditu ;-). Pryrates and Elias. Especially the relation of these two is sort of weird. Pryrates is heavily retconned in the last book when we get insight into his thinking through Cadrach yet those revelations fit not well with what we learn about Pryrates schemes in the first book.

In detail it is that Pryrates originally only wanted to conjure up the phantom of Elias' wife to keep the favor of the king - only when Cadrach provided him with his knowledge about Nisses' book did he introduce Elias to Utuk'ku and Ineluki - but in the first book we have Pryrates reacting to the red comet and all the other signs clearly referring to Ineluki's grand plan much earlier.

We also have Pryrates capturing Josua with the intention to sacrifice him to the Storm King when the Norns deliver Sorrow to Elias - yet Elias doesn't remember/agree to give up Josua to the Norns. 

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The Guardian takes an in-depth look at the work of Tad Williams.

Quote

When the American fantasy writer Tad Williams first met Game of Thrones author George RR Martin, Martin growled at him: “Get the hell out of here.”

This was not yet another egoistic literary beef; Martin merely wanted his fellow author to get home and finish the next instalment of his Memory, Sorrow and Thorn series, which Martin had been patiently waiting to read. Perhaps this was a bit hypocritical coming from the famously slow-writing author of the series A Song of Ice and Fire, who is loved and moaned at by fans furiously awaiting his next book. But while Williams, who turns 60 in March, might not be quite the household name Martin is, he deserves wider cultural recognition: without Tad Williams, there would be no Game of Thrones

:P:D

Edited by AncalagonTheBlack

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Slightly unfair though. That was in 1991 or 1992, before GRRM had finished writing AGoT, maybe even before he started writing it, so not really hypocritical at the time.

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I read this as a joke Werthead. Because of the anecdote it is obvious that GoT prolly not a even a thing in GRRM's mind. Read seriously this would be certainly unfair.

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Well, considering how many elements of ASoIaF are essentially 'loosely inspired by Tad Williams' it is quite clear that George owes Tad a great deal there. When I listened to the German audio books of MST two years ago (after failing two times at reading through it) this was really eye-opening to the extreme.

There are lists out there detailing all the parallels but I definitely would go as far that the core story of ASoIaF is basically a retelling of the central conflict in MST. Sure, George's story sort of exploded, and we have more kingdoms, more children, and more side stories, but I'm pretty sure the Others want more or less the same as the Norns, and if there is some guiding force behind them then the Heart of Winter might have its own Utuk'ku.

Not mention Jon-Simon and Dany-Miriamele. Yeah, things are different but I'm pretty sure we'll get more or less the same ending, although most likely with Dany being the ruling partner rather than Jon.

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1 hour ago, Lord Varys said:

Well, considering how many elements of ASoIaF are essentially 'loosely inspired by Tad Williams' it is quite clear that George owes Tad a great deal there. When I listened to the German audio books of MST two years ago (after failing two times at reading through it) this was really eye-opening to the extreme.

There are lists out there detailing all the parallels but I definitely would go as far that the core story of ASoIaF is basically a retelling of the central conflict in MST. Sure, George's story sort of exploded, and we have more kingdoms, more children, and more side stories, but I'm pretty sure the Others want more or less the same as the Norns, and if there is some guiding force behind them then the Heart of Winter might have its own Utuk'ku.

Not mention Jon-Simon and Dany-Miriamele. Yeah, things are different but I'm pretty sure we'll get more or less the same ending, although most likely with Dany being the ruling partner rather than Jon.

Jon is not Simon, nor is Dany Miriamele.  Dany and Miriamele, especially, couldn't be more different in my opinion.

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2 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Jon is not Simon, nor is Dany Miriamele.  Dany and Miriamele, especially, couldn't be more different in my opinion.

They certainly aren't the same characters. But if you break it down to the basics - the daughter of the last king and the hidden prince/secret descendant of some king - then they are pretty alike. And they might have a similar ending ahead of them.

Character-wise they have little to nothing in common, I never meant to say that.

Ingen Jegger isn't Sandor but he still got a dog's head helmet, and Elias isn't Stannis but he still got an red priest adviser...

Not to mention the very setting of the two worlds. Different human races reaching the continent at different points in time, an old folk being still pretty close to 'the elves' and their beliefs, another introducing a new religion. Another introducing iron and steel to the continent which also happens to be pretty viking-like.

I think it is pretty clear that George's own setting pretty much grew out of Osten Ard. 

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11 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, those are mostly all common fantasy tropes.

Exactly.  Are all fantasy stories the same story?

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16 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

Eh, those are mostly all common fantasy tropes.

Red robes and dog helmets are common fantasy tropes? 

Westeros as a world is clearly derived from Osten Ard. It is not a straight copy, of course, but you can see that it was more influenced by Osten Ard than, say, LeGuin's Earthsea, right?

5 hours ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said:

Exactly.  Are all fantasy stories the same story?

Many are. Especially if you look at the Tolkien pastiches. It might be that ASoIaF doesn't go down the Osten Ard road in the whole Others plot. We'll have to wait and see. But I'd be very surprised if there wouldn't be strong parallels there. The very fact that the evil monsters come from the far north is a strong parallel to the Norns.

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There are direct references in ASoIaF to MS&T, certainly. "All men must die", Lord Willum, Elyas and Josua etc. But it's a pretty massive stretch to say that ASoIaF is riffing off Osten Ard more than Jack Vance, Middle-earth or Hyboria (or although he's not ready beyond EotW, WoT with Lomas Longstrider). Martin is drawing on a lot of influences here.

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DragonLance had red robes and dragons returning. Is GRRM riffing off DragonLance?

 

(somewhere I can here peterbound screaming)

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3 hours ago, Werthead said:

There are direct references in ASoIaF to MS&T, certainly. "All men must die", Lord Willum, Elyas and Josua etc. But it's a pretty massive stretch to say that ASoIaF is riffing off Osten Ard more than Jack Vance, Middle-earth or Hyboria (or although he's not ready beyond EotW, WoT with Lomas Longstrider). Martin is drawing on a lot of influences here.

Well, I'm just saying that I find the two worlds/stories to be too similar for it to coincidence. There are more parallels to MST and ASoIaF than to the works George is simply citing or hinting at. And I'd say that those parallels are very strong at the core of the story, the way it was conceived in the 1990s.

That doesn't mean the story isn't George's story but he draws more than a little bit of inspiration from MST. It is clearly a much larger story now, but hell, I'm pretty sure the answer to the mystery of the motivation/purpose Others is basically going to be the same answer behind the motivation of Ineluki and the Norns.

2 hours ago, Darth Richard II said:

DragonLance had red robes and dragons returning. Is GRRM riffing off DragonLance?

(somewhere I can here peterbound screaming)

I don't know DragonLance.

But it is not just the robe. It is a king with personal issues being corrupted by an (evil) priest in red robes. That's true for both Stannis and Elias. And if you go back and check the atmosphere of Cressen's Prologue and the Davos chapters of ACoK and the atmosphere Tad is creating at the Hayholt after Pryrates is acquiring more and more power the parallels are very striking.

Somewhere down the road Stannis/Mel and Elias/Pryrates parted ways, that's clear, but the parallels are there. I think it cannot be denied that George had the picture of Elias/Pryrates in his mind when he was creating Stannis/Mel.

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I think it can be denied. And has been. A lot.

edit: this is getting extra stupid, can we talk about Tad Williams again? I'm starting to miss the spaceship argument.

Edited by Darth Richard II

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It is clearly a much larger story now, but hell, I'm pretty sure the answer to the mystery of the motivation/purpose Others is basically going to be the same answer behind the motivation of Ineluki and the Norns.

I'm reasonably certain that the origin of the Others in the books is going to be the same, or at least similar, to the explanation we have on the TV show: they were created by the Children of the Forest to fight humanity and something went wrong. Nothing like the Norns at all (especially because, unlike the TV show, the book versions of the Others have no single leader).

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Back in the old thread I said I'd find out about the typo issues in the MST ebooks. DAW said that the new ebooks are made from the new proof and thus are fine. Whoever purchases ebooks that are typo infested got old versions that should not be on sale anymore.

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