KingHimes

Stannis will still be King

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Brienne killed Stannis.  She swore to do it and she saw it as her last duty to Renly.  Just because we didn't see it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. 

 

Melisandre is riding away from Stannis' body.  Even if she doubled back and found him Melisandre has made it plain, in speaking with both Jon and Davos that she herself has no special power in this regard, that it is R'Holler who decides.  Beyond that there is no reason to bring Stannis back.  Melisandre has decided that (if she ever really believed it) he isn't the chosen one, whatever name you choose to give that character.  Kinvara has made it plain that role, in the mainstream beliefs of followers of "The Lord of Light" goes to Dany.  Meanwhile Stannis has no Army, the men he had that weren't butchered by the Boltons at Winterfell had deserted before the battle.  The Wildings and the North will follow Jon, not Stannis.  Davos will never support Stannis again, not after what he did to Shireen.

 

So we have Stannis (and by the way, where exactly did Stannis get this great reputation as a General?  He had his behind handed to him at Blackwater Bay by Tyrion and Tywin, then he had his army butchered by Ramsay.  True he beat the Wildings but at least part of that happened because he attacked them while they were standing down for a parley.  How many women and children died so Stannis could have a "great reputation" as a field commander?) with no army, no base of power, by himself (okay maybe he has Melisandre with him but if she shows up at Winterfell with him Jon and Davos will have her hanged) even his wife has killed herself.  Whether we like it or not the series is rapidly approaching it's climax, it (unlike what is rumored to be going on in the books) is winnowing down the field of contenders.  D&D are not, with only what, 13 or 14 episodes left, going to take the time to make a Stannis comeback believable.  After all, even before all this he wasn't exactly the most popular man in Westeros, when the rest of the Kingdom finds out about how he murdered his brother and then allowed the human sacrifice of his daughter it's not going to inspire people to say, yeah, that Stannis guy, he's the man to back.

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Posted (edited)

10 hours ago, Byfort of Corfe said:

So we have Stannis (and by the way, where exactly did Stannis get this great reputation as a General?  

 

Hi, read the books and its explained in detail or take half a minute to read hundreds of detailed threads. 

 

Edit: Even the show explains it several times. If you're able to make a lengthy post you can take 5 minutes to google.

Edited by aFeastForDragons

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4 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

 

Hi, read the books and its explained in detail or take half a minute to read hundreds of detailed threads. 

 

Edit: Even the show explains it several times. If you're able to make a lengthy post you can take 5 minutes to google.

That's the thing about telling and not showing, it doesn't have the same impact. 

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yes, I have read the books and many of the threads.  I have seen absolutely nothing that convinces me that Stannis is a "great" General.  He held out in a siege, that's about it.  He attacked the Wildings while they were awaiting a parley with the Night's Watch.  That's it.  Why don't you take a moment and look at the careers of some Generals who were actually Great, from Alexander to Scipio Africanus to  Caesar to Augustus to Charlemagne to William the Conqueror to Robert Guiscard through to Henry IInd to Edward IIIrd to the Black Prince and Henry Vth and Bertrand Du Guesclin and I'll stop there because we are running out of the Ancient to the Middle Age period.  Show me a Stannis Victory akin to Gaugamela or Issus or Zama or Pharsalus or Alesia or Charlemagne's Campaign in Italy or Hastings or Durazzo or Henry IInd's Campaigns or Crecy or Poitiers or Agincourt or Du Guesclin's campaigns against the English. 

 

Perhaps real life history isn't to your liking, let's then go with Literary Heroes.  Let us then look at King Arthur, who according to Legend fought at least 12 Battles against the Saxons, winning all 12 including a crushing victory at Mt. Badon.  That is the semi-historical Arthur.  Other literary representations have Arthur defeating Lot and his allies, as well as conquering Rome.

 

Quite frankly my read of GRRM's presentation of Stannis is that Stannis isn't worthy of his reputation.  He is beaten, and beaten badly by Tyrion and Tywin on the Blackwater.  He is first fooled by Ramsay Bolton and then crushed by him.  He did beat the Iron Fleet but the rest of his military career is workmanlike at best.  In an open field I doubt he would be a match for Tywin, Robert himself or Ned Stark, or for that matter Robb.  If you are ranking great military men of he period of ASOIAF it's quite clear that Tywin has far and away the best grasp of strategy, while Randall Tarly, Robb Stark, Eddard Stark, Ramsay Bolton, Roose Bolton and Robert Baratheon are far and away better tacticians and battlefield commanders.

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On 3/10/2017 at 3:10 PM, Jango said:

I agree. The biggest indicator, to me at least, was that he wasn't given the respectable on-screen death that nearly every important character has gotten, yet for some reason Stannis' death has to be implied and we only find out about his "true" death through Brienne telling Davos and Melisandre. Characters less deserving have had more brutal deaths on the show, like when Gregor Clegane is cutting through prisoners/peasants. You can literally see their intestines spill out before them, yet such an integral character gets an off-screen death? It screams fishy to me.

Stannis's gory end wasn't shown in an effort to be respectful. They gave Stannis the dignity of taking responsibility for his crimes and accepting the punishment he deserved. And to maintain the dignity of the scene they opted to exclude the macabre imagery of a decapitation and instead used the imagery of the sword of justice making a clean swing. Unfortunately, fans were unwilling to accept the finality that the scene presented and instead clung to conspiracy theories only to be disappointed.  

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On 3/12/2017 at 11:40 AM, sapphire_lion said:

Stannis's gory end wasn't shown in an effort to be respectful. They gave Stannis the dignity of taking responsibility for his crimes and accepting the punishment he deserved. And to maintain the dignity of the scene they opted to exclude the macabre imagery of a decapitation and instead used the imagery of the sword of justice making a clean swing. Unfortunately, fans were unwilling to accept the finality that the scene presented and instead clung to conspiracy theories only to be disappointed.  

I can respect this perspective. However, it's more than just that for me, personally. There are other signs that would suggest Stannis is still alive, to me for me at least. It's not like I'm clinging to dear life that Stannis could still be alive only because they didn't show his death like they would with any other character.

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Its nothing about unaccepting, its the cold hard fact that this is Game of Thrones where characters being murdered die on screen. Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Drogo, Oberyn, Commander Mormont, Robb Stark and his wife, Catelyn, Locke, Joffery, Renly, Qhorin, Rodrick, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Craster,  Shae, The legend of Gin Alley, Ros, Ygritte, Jogen, Mance,  Janos, Barristan, Shireen, Meryn Trant, Myrcella, Balon. Rickon, Ramsey and tons of other names I can't recall. See a pattern? Every single character murdered on screen. They burn little girls live on this show for f sake. 

 

It couldn't be any more blatantly obvious that Stannis was meant to come back so they left his "death" scene open ended. We know he has a lot more story in the book and that they gave Jon large parts of his story. Having his death scene vague gave them they option. In the end they choose to kill him off and cut his story. 

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On 3/15/2017 at 2:01 AM, aFeastForDragons said:

Its nothing about unaccepting, its the cold hard fact that this is Game of Thrones where characters being murdered die on screen. Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Drogo, Oberyn, Commander Mormont, Robb Stark and his wife, Catelyn, Locke, Joffery, Renly, Qhorin, Rodrick, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Craster,  Shae, The legend of Gin Alley, Ros, Ygritte, Jogen, Mance,  Janos, Barristan, Shireen, Meryn Trant, Myrcella, Balon. Rickon, Ramsey and tons of other names I can't recall. See a pattern? Every single character murdered on screen. They burn little girls live on this show for f sake. 

Tell it to the Blackfish.

Quote

It couldn't be any more blatantly obvious that Stannis was meant to come back so they left his "death" scene open ended. We know he has a lot more story in the book and that they gave Jon large parts of his story. Having his death scene vague gave them they option. In the end they choose to kill him off and cut his story. 

Nonsense. As Gwen said. "I nearly dislocated my shoulder with that swing. Did you think I was just giving him a haircut?"

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Nonsense? Have you even read the books? It couldn't be any more obvious that the show cut his parts and gave them to Jon. They left his death open ended so they had the choice. This is GOT. "They burn little girls alive on this show". 

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Posted (edited)

On 15. 3. 2017 at 10:01 AM, aFeastForDragons said:

Its nothing about unaccepting, its the cold hard fact that this is Game of Thrones where characters being murdered die on screen. Ned, Tywin, Viserys, Drogo, Oberyn, Commander Mormont, Robb Stark and his wife, Catelyn, Locke, Joffery, Renly, Qhorin, Rodrick, Maester Luwin, Jeor Mormont, Craster,  Shae, The legend of Gin Alley, Ros, Ygritte, Jogen, Mance,  Janos, Barristan, Shireen, Meryn Trant, Myrcella, Balon. Rickon, Ramsey and tons of other names I can't recall. See a pattern? Every single character murdered on screen. They burn little girls live on this show for f sake. 

 

It couldn't be any more blatantly obvious that Stannis was meant to come back so they left his "death" scene open ended. We know he has a lot more story in the book and that they gave Jon large parts of his story. Having his death scene vague gave them they option. In the end they choose to kill him off and cut his story. 

Stannis was always going to die on the show and likely will in the books in the near future. Much like Barristan, Rickon, Roose and others. So since Stannis will likely defeat the Boltons in the books, they gave this to Jon and Sansa. Adding more emotional punch to it that Winterfell will be reclaimed by the Starks instead of Stannis and his forces. The whole Northern arc in the books is much more complex and will ne interesting, show had to cut it off in order to move with the plot.

Edited by Lord Friendzone

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4 hours ago, aFeastForDragons said:

Nonsense? Have you even read the books? It couldn't be any more obvious that the show cut his parts and gave them to Jon. They left his death open ended so they had the choice. This is GOT. "They burn little girls alive on this show". 

Yes I've read the books. And yes the idea that Stannis was meant to come back is utter nonsense. They killed him off because they were done with him.

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13 hours ago, Lord Friendzone said:

Stannis was always going to die on the show and likely will in the books in the near future. Much like Barristan, Rickon, Roose and others. So since Stannis will likely defeat the Boltons in the books, they gave this to Jon and Sansa. Adding more emotional punch to it that Winterfell will be reclaimed by the Starks instead of Stannis and his forces. The whole Northern arc in the books is much more complex and will ne interesting, show had to cut it off in order to move with the plot.

It's possible that Stannis wins vs Boltons, but I don't see how he really can. His men are already starving and demoralized. They're already eating corpses. The land where they're camped is already fished out. They're already freezing.

Meanwhile, Boltons are in Winterfell, an extremely well defended keep to which not even the Starks know of a secret entrance. They've sent out the two groups that were giving them the most trouble: Manderly's men, and the Freys. Roose's reasoning seems to be that if these two win, great. If they kill one another, also great. If Stannis kills them, fine. Bolton is sitting in Winterfell. His food stores might be low, but he's not yet starving or freezing.

Anyhow...Stannis's traps are for the Freys and Manderlys...groups Roose has already determined he can afford to lose. It's a given that Stannis will defeat the Freys, and I think it's also a given that the Manderlys will join him. However, it's still extremely iffy and unlikely (for me) that Stannis can win Winterfell.

Then there's the pink letter, which I believe was written by Ramsay.

Anyway, I think the show killed Stannis because they were done with him. I think Winds will be done with him, too.

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My first reaction was "Fool, that fool be dead".

But on further consideration, the ambiguous nature of his "death" does raise questions ... it's like the show is trying to keep an ace up its sleeve just in case Stannis is needed to fill plot gaps.

As everyone says, there's no doubt Stannis will meet a different end in the books.

GRRM's style is such that Stannis' likely arc is that he DOES do something useful (in the broader sense, vs. the Others) before he meets his end.  

This would be GRRM logic along the line of "even a broken clock is right twice a day".

In other words, Stannis has been amazing at being awkward and wrong ... it would be much more surprising and satisfying if he maintains his rigidity, survives somehow and contributes something, perhaps via BwB or being the new Dondarrion?

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I would have preferred to see Stannis come back and agree that it's odd that they didn't show his death, as with Blackfish, and for that matter Hizdahr, though Hizdahr was a less important character.

The impression I got, unfortunately, after reading other comments about his last two episodes, was that the writers deliberately screwed him over at every turn because they don't like him and they wanted to let Jon be the hero to retake Winterfell (actually it was Littlefinger, but whatever). Think about it:

  • Ramsay's twenty good men manage to slip into camp undetected at all different entry points, successful sabotage everything they need to, and slip out again.
  • Half of Stannis's forces manage to desert despite the army being supposedly snowed in.
  • Stannis's character does a complete 180 and murders his daughter, his sole heir, who it was established early in the season he would do anything to keep alive, and in his previous appearance he rejected out of hand when Melisandre suggested burning her.
  • Stannis's men seemed fine with the burning at the time - I didn't notice any loud objections - yet in episode #10 of season #5 another half of them have managed to desert when they're most needed, immediately before battle. Along with all the horses.
  • Selyse who was fine with murdering her daughter up to the last minute decides to hang herself.
  • Melisandre who was devoutly pledged to Stannis through thick and thin and despite him doing everything she told him to, abandoned him when most needed, right before the battle. On a horse, despite it having just been established that there are no horses.
  • Brienne somehow finds Stannis in a forest where Ramsay's men failed to do so, and murders him for a crime in which his guilt is ambiguous and Brienne really has no way of knowing. (Certainly when Mel seduced Stannis in season #2 episode #2 she didn't say anything about conceiving a shadow to murder Renly, she said she'd give him a son.) She falsely refers to Renly, who's dead and behind Stannis in the line of succession, as the rightful king of the Andals etc. Even though Stannis would be far more valuable alive.

I agree with the poster who said that Stannis' "do your duty" in that Brienne's real duty is to protect Sansa. Unfortunately Brienne gets away scot-free for failing to do her duty, as she saves Sansa anyway at the start of season #7.

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The Red God showed Mel Stannis because that was the best way for her to reach Jon. Think about it. 

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Honestly the thing about Stannis' arch in the show that gets me is how it effected everyone else around him. I always go back to the Northern lords because it such a obvious example of this problem. There is no reason in-canon (ie where excuses defenders use like budgets, pay actors, an only 10 episodes don't exists) for Smalljon, Glover, Wyman, or the small houses that joined Jon to be showing up in S6 over 5. Especially SJ his whole reason for showing up is how the Wildlings are a threat yet he doesn't seem to care Stannis stopped an later executed Mance? I mean really if we are using logic here he should of shown up in S5 handed Rickon over to Stannis as part of a deal that involved getting Bolton and Karstrak lands in in a post-Bolton North an in turn that makes Roose wanting to get his hands on Sansa make more sense as a counter-balance to Rickon

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4 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

I agree with the poster who said that Stannis' "do your duty" in that Brienne's real duty is to protect Sansa. Unfortunately Brienne gets away scot-free for failing to do her duty, as she saves Sansa anyway at the start of season #7.

Brienne never failed to do her duty. Her first oath was to avenge Renly. Catelyn had promised that she would never hold her back when the time came. Brienne fulfilled her oaths in the exact order she said she would. Moreover, Stannis would know nothing about Brienne's pledge to Catelyn. He was telling her to cut off his head as he was guilty as sin and deserved to die.

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4 hours ago, CaptainTheo said:

Brienne somehow finds Stannis in a forest where Ramsay's men failed to do so, and murders him for a crime in which his guilt is ambiguous and Brienne really has no way of knowing. (Certainly when Mel seduced Stannis in season #2 episode #2 she didn't say anything about conceiving a shadow to murder Renly, she said she'd give him a son.) She falsely refers to Renly, who's dead and behind Stannis in the line of succession, as the rightful king of the Andals etc. Even though Stannis would be far more valuable alive.

(1) Brienne would have been watching the fight from the sidelines and tracking Stannis.

(2) Brienne got a full confession from the guy. Trying to blame everything on Mel is weak. 

(3) Brienne called Renly the RIGHTful king because she believed him to be the RIGHT king. The king Westeros needed and deserved. The king with the greatest army. The king who would have overthrown the Lannisters and been kind to his people. She wasn't being literal. She was letting Stannis know that Renly would have been a better king than him and would have succeeded where he failed. 

(4) Stannis had no value. Not a soul gave a fig about his claim. He lost his army. He burned his heir. He was worthless. His death a great mercy to him.

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22 hours ago, Stannis is the man....nis said:

Honestly the thing about Stannis' arch in the show that gets me is how it effected everyone else around him. I always go back to the Northern lords because it such a obvious example of this problem. There is no reason in-canon (ie where excuses defenders use like budgets, pay actors, an only 10 episodes don't exists) for Smalljon, Glover, Wyman, or the small houses that joined Jon to be showing up in S6 over 5. Especially SJ his whole reason for showing up is how the Wildlings are a threat yet he doesn't seem to care Stannis stopped an later executed Mance? I mean really if we are using logic here he should of shown up in S5 handed Rickon over to Stannis as part of a deal that involved getting Bolton and Karstrak lands in in a post-Bolton North an in turn that makes Roose wanting to get his hands on Sansa make more sense as a counter-balance to Rickon

At that point forward, expecting the show to operate on canon and logic is asking too much. The reddit leak of Season 6 which ended up being true, word for word said that D&D made Smalljon (who died at the Red Wedding by the way. A extra in Umber gear that was Smalljon to a T was there.) betray the Starks because the image of Tormund vs Smalljon was cool. That's how they make decisions nowadays.

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On 5. 6. 2017 at 4:30 AM, kimim said:

It's possible that Stannis wins vs Boltons, but I don't see how he really can. His men are already starving and demoralized. They're already eating corpses. The land where they're camped is already fished out. They're already freezing.

Meanwhile, Boltons are in Winterfell, an extremely well defended keep to which not even the Starks know of a secret entrance. They've sent out the two groups that were giving them the most trouble: Manderly's men, and the Freys. Roose's reasoning seems to be that if these two win, great. If they kill one another, also great. If Stannis kills them, fine. Bolton is sitting in Winterfell. His food stores might be low, but he's not yet starving or freezing.

Anyhow...Stannis's traps are for the Freys and Manderlys...groups Roose has already determined he can afford to lose. It's a given that Stannis will defeat the Freys, and I think it's also a given that the Manderlys will join him. However, it's still extremely iffy and unlikely (for me) that Stannis can win Winterfell.

Then there's the pink letter, which I believe was written by Ramsay.

Anyway, I think the show killed Stannis because they were done with him. I think Winds will be done with him, too.

I think this where show might mirror it a bit. We know Shireen will die and she is at Castle Black along with Selyse and Mel. So unlike show, Stannis won't be burning her alive. They'll do it. Mel might see in her visions that Azor Ahai is dead and sacrifice must be made. Show did not wanted Jon to be brought back at the expense of an innocent girl but George can do that. Showing that price for second life is steep.

On the show Ramsay were lured away and who knows he might do that again on the books. He's not as smart and can make mistakes, might even kill Roose. 

I think he'll die but defeat the Boltons is what I think will happen with the help of other northern houses - Manderlys and co who are planning to put Rickon as KITN, Davos is with them. On top of it the Vale with Sansa and resurrected Jon with large number of willdings.

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