Bonkers

Littlefinger, Doran, Olenna ...and Oberyn plot?

88 posts in this topic

11 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

 

As I recall, Shae mentions how badly she wants to see the pigeon pie three times before the wedding: once in her manse during one of Tyrion's visits, once in the dragon room the morning of the wedding, and once as she is attending to Sansa just before the feast.

LF needs eyes and ears in the throne room, and I'll bet he's putting pressure on Shae to get herself in there somehow. Yeah, and probably Bronn too, although he's not in as good a position as Shae at this point.

 

I had forgotten about Shae mentioning the pigeon pie so many times. Between her connections in the kitchens and her access to the hairnet just before the wedding the poison in the pie is looking more and more convincing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On Invalid Date at 3:33 AM, Lord Wraith said:

I had forgotten about Shae mentioning the pigeon pie so many times. Between her connections in the kitchens and her access to the hairnet just before the wedding the poison in the pie is looking more and more convincing.

Lol, careful, or we'll end up taking this thread off-topic. :D

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Lol, careful, or we'll end up taking this thread off-topic. :D

Nah, I think talking about the poisoning is a great contribution to the topic.  After all, it is pretty much what I raised the question around.  You raise some top points about who the poison was meant for and why it happened. 

One big reason for me that I felt there could be a connection between the three groups, is the timing of all the poisoning happening around the PW.  If we look at it from a different angle, that LF used Shae to poison Tyrion's pie and remove the threat he would uncover all LF's plotting, then we would need to find a good reason for him to involve anyone else.  I am not certain he would directly tell the Tyrells nor Martells about his plan - that would be potential suicide!  But both families do have reason for wanting Tyrion removed (Olenna for Tywin stealing Sansa's claim to the North away from them, and Doran for destroying Tywin's ambition to spread Lannister power all throughout the realm).  Neither are directly about Tyrion himself, but his position as Sansa's husband means he is the target. 

I will return again to my comment about Petyr being out in the bay on the ship.  He could not have just been sitting idle for a month, Sallador Saan pirating, and the traders would want to be trading.  He must have been somewhere, and somewhere to have messengers reach his people in Kings Landing.  If, IF, he had been in Dorne, then messages may have passed between Doran and Oberyn without anyone else reading them.  If not by raven, then someone would have to be traveling on foot, or he used trading galleys to transport his messengers to his people.  Given LF actively created tension between Tyrell and Lannister (snitching on them marrying Sansa to Wiilas and informing on Joffery's mistreatment of Sansa), it could be to the favour of Doran Martell.

The problem I have with him being the one to poison Tyrion, not Joffery,  is his proximity to KL when it happened, and his need for messages to reach him in a timely fashion.  He was waaay out in the bay when Sansa reached him.  Hours out.  The bells could no longer be heard.  Yet one of the first things LF says to her is

"He sold you for a promise of ten thousand dragons. Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffery's death." 

LF knew Joffery was dead.  I find it highly unlikely he was told before hand, as he was so far out and on a ship no raven would find. Of course I don't know for certain, but I find it hard to see how that would happen. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's look at the P.O.D. (Petyr, Olenna and Doran) conspiracy from both possible poisoning perspectives to see whether there might be any connections

The Tyrion one first.  

Petyr obviously has the personal preservation motive - to hide his embezzling of the crown monies.  Tyrion may appear to choke on his pie, so no one is blamed, but how does that provide Sansa the opportunity to escape?  She would be either blamed or not but as she is seated right next to him she can not simply just run away, and she would be watched carefully following it.  Oberyn can't really be blamed, as he is no where near the dais.  Could it be pinned on anyone convincingly?  I don't believe so.  Petyr would most likely be acting alone (with Shae removing the gem when she put in in Sansa's hair, and then placing it the pie in the kitchens, for example) and no one else is aware of it.  To tell Olenna or even Doran of his plan seems far too dangerous for LF to do, and he has no reason to.  In order to do this he needs to be in a position where he can get messages to his catspaw/s without having them intercepted, so where could he be during his absence?  Also, how did he know Joffery was murdered as soon as Sansa arrived?  She came immediately from the wedding, and it didn't leave much time for another person - whom was unlikely to have been at the actual wedding - to row out to him first. 

Olenna has the motivation of removing Tywin's heir from inheriting northern power.  LF created tension between the families by snitching on the Tyrell's to Tywin, and thus giving Sansa to Tyrion.  It is unlikely Olenna knew about LF's meddling, but it served to lessen the stability of the union further.  Olenna has no love for any Lannister, so removing Tyrion from Tywin's plans is not likely to be a problem for her.  Nor does it threaten Margery's position.  Also, it leaves Tywin without a male heir.   I don't believe she would act alone in this while doing it so publicly as placing the stone in Tyrion's pie.  There is too much risk at being caught, and Tyrion was watching the pie the whole time.  He watched the server place it in front of him, and then spoon the cream on top.  IF she had taken the stone from Sansa's hairnet then how did it get into the pie?  It didn't get put there when it was served, as Tyrion was looking at it, and why would someone (say, Garlan) place it in the pie as Tyrion is getting up to leave with Sansa?  If he is leaving why bother?  The poison had to be put in the pie before it was served.  I don't see anyway for a Tyrell to do this from the dais.

Doran has a similar motivation for wanting Tyrion dead.  Remove Tywin's power from the north, and his heir as well.  There is no connection to Doran is this scenario as far as I can tell, as Oberyn has nothing to do with the hairnet, nor the pie.  Neither Olenna nor Petyr would have any reason to tell the Martell's about any plot to kill off Tyrion, and I don't see Oberyn using a catspaw to poison someone. 

The Joffery one.

Petyr has chaos as his motivation, and by killing the King he throws the realm into a longer regency under Cersei.  This however is not a certainty, as Tywin is still alive, and is just as likely to send Cersei back to the Rock and assume the Regency himself.  The only reason I see for him acting alone in this is to create a diversion to remove Sansa, and thus frame her for the murder.  It also would frame Tyrion as her husband (as Tyrion thinks to himself in his cell, that no one would believe either he or Sansa would have acted alone without the other being complicate).  This allows him to take Sansa in the confusion, remove Tyrion from the game and kill off Joffery.  To act alone, however, he would need to have Shae remove the stone, and then have a server place it in the chalice, and I find this unlikely.

Olenna has the motive to remove Joffery and marry Margery to Tommen, a more promising King (this is also a motive for Tywin actually, as after his whole life working towards having a Lannister on the throne, he ends up with Joffery - who is a lot like The Mad King).  Olenna is mosy likely aware that Cersei will be sent away or married off, and Tywin will be Regent, thus creating a more stable environment for her family.  It also means that someone will be blamed for the murder, and the likely suspects are Oberyn Martell or Tyrion.  As Oberyn is no where near them this seems unlikely as an expected patsy.  It may be that she saw the opportunity when it arose and knew Tyrion would be perfectly positioned to take the blame.   Again, this removes Tywin's male heir and the Lannister hold on Winterfell/the north through Sansa.  I doubt she would have any reservation at Sansa being blamed along with Tyrion at this point, as she may just want to diminish Tywin's power hold.  To pull this off she must needs remove the stone from the hairnet and place it in the chalice.  This requires her to know about the hairnet through LF, and to inform Margery of it to ensure she doesn't drink from it beyond that point.  She can not do this alone, and so there must be a LF/Olenna connection here.  She had to have done it when the pie was being cut.

Doran and Oberyn already have Marcella, and the discussion about crowning Marcella in Dorne had already transpired. Doran seems to not be ready for that all out war, as Tywin is still full strength.  Doran claims to have told Oberyn about 'taking measure of the boy king' and finding friends in court, but Oberyn's true intentions seem to be of vengeance.  If Oberyn was intent on fighting the Mountain he may have been expecting a trial at some point.  He can not just walk up to him start a war between the throne and Dorne by killing him without due cause.  Was he expecting it would be after he poisoned Tywin that it would happen? Was he aware that someone else may perhaps need a champion after Joffery's poisoning? We know that Doran has friends at Court, so how much did they know before arriving?

I don't think there is any real evidence to connect the Martell brothers to the poisoning at the PW itself, but the relationship between Tyrell and Martell is not as negative as it once was in the past if Oberyn is to be believed.  Even Mace Tyrell claims he has no issue with Doran, it is Oberyn he has issue with, for hurting Willas I think.  Olenna constantly calling Mace an oaf seems to say to me that if there were a form of alliance between the families against House Lannister, Mace would not necessarily be a part of that understanding.  The fact that Tyrell was the main support for Renly (before LF arrived at Highgarden), and Renly was expecting Dorne to join him is very telling to me.  Dorne had no reason to support Renly as a Baratheon nor Joffery as a Lannister.  They had no reason to get involved at all, yet Renly tells Catelyn otherwise.  It seems there was some agreement between Dorne and the Reach prior to LF arriving at Highgarden, if LF discovered this he may have used that to his own advantage and fed each side information about the other to get what he wants. 

 

It seems to me that if Tyrion was the intended recipient of the poison, then it had to be Petyr acting alone with perhaps Shae, as there is seemingly no other way for the poison to get there unless it was placed there prior to arriving on the dais.  But this leaves it highly unlikely that Sansa would have an opportunity to escape unnoticed, as she is his wife, sat next to him and will be watched or even blamed.  When LF asks Sansa if anyone said her hairnet was crooked and straightened it for her during the night, it seems very exact to me- not that someone touched it, but the reason why they did.  If this was in fact the case of LF acting alone however, I see no reason that there would be a P.O.D. conspiracy surrounding the poisoning, and any conversations he had with the Tyrells were of no consequence but to create friction between the two Houses. 

If Joffery was the intended recipient, then there must be collusion between at least Olenna and Petyr.  To know about the hairnet she must have been told.  It also implies that Margery was informed to a degree, as to avoid the cup.  Given that LF and Olenna may have had these discussions, it begs the question as to how much do the Martell's know, and what is the purpose of the previous alliance?  If Olenna is trusting a sly man like LF, would she trust Doran Martell?  All LF need do is tell Tywin and it is all over for her, I mean, she already tried to sneak off with Sansa.  I think she would need more assurance than just LF's word.  Why trust LF alone in something so important?  I don't think she would, she would need to have something far more reassuring than that to go ahead with regicide. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, Bonkers said:

The problem I have with him being the one to poison Tyrion, not Joffery,  is his proximity to KL when it happened, and his need for messages to reach him in a timely fashion.  He was waaay out in the bay when Sansa reached him.  Hours out.  The bells could no longer be heard.  Yet one of the first things LF says to her is

"He sold you for a promise of ten thousand dragons. Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffery's death." 

LF knew Joffery was dead.  I find it highly unlikely he was told before hand, as he was so far out and on a ship no raven would find. Of course I don't know for certain, but I find it hard to see how that would happen. 

But boats can move on the water, and it takes Sansa and co. hours to row from shore to ship. Why is it so inconceivable that with an operation of this magnitude, in which all sorts of things could go wrong that could get LF's head removed from his shoulders, that he would not have a means to get news of what's happening in the Red Keep immediately -- just in case he has to split for Braavos.

Knowing all we know about the man and how he operates, and given all the meticulous months of planning that went into the assassination, can you honestly say that his plan for that night was to sit in a boat in the dark all night long and hope against hope that Sansa comes rowing up out of the mist at the crack of dawn?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Bonkers said:

snip

 

Sansa's opportunity to escape is the same as with Joffrey: the specter of someone choking to death gives her the chance to slip away unseen, even by the little birds.

If Tyrion is believed to have choked, there is no need to affix blame on anyone. After the fact, Sansa's disappearance will cast suspicion on her, but by then she is gone.

To understand how the hairnet comes into play, you have to understand what each of the plotters knew at different points in the planning timeline:

At the time the hairnet was delivered, LF has little more than a vague idea that he needs to create a diversion somewhere by killing someone. He does not know who or how yet, but he needs to be sure he can get the two crucial pieces, Sansa and the poison, in the same place at the same time. He can't very well let Dontos hold the hairnet until the full plan is in place -- he would likely sell it for booze. He can't keep it himself because he might not be able to get it to Sansa at a later point, when all the dust from the battle has settled down. And he can't give it to anyone else because it could be used as evidence should the holder betray him. The best course is to get it to Sansa because she does not know what it contains or how it factors into her escape. All she knows is that she must wear it as instructed or the deal is off.

Lady O, of course, is not part of the plot at this point. Her motive for killing Tyrion does not arise until after Sansa marries Tyrion and after the Red Wedding. Once her situation makes Tyrion's death imperative for her, LF approaches her to join the plot, but this is long after the hairnet is in Sansa's possession.

The hairnet makes absolutely no sense if the target is Joffrey. If Lady O signed onto this plot way back at Bitterbridge, then there is no reason to risk discovery by having Lady O pretend to fiddle with Sansa's hair. She could just carry the poison herself.

As I've argued before, neither LF or LO have any reason at all to get rid of Joffrey. Joff will be just as chaotic, if not more, than Cersei, and is far more manipulable by Littlefinger, while Lady O's primary object in the match is not to provide a safe, happy life for Margaery but to produce a Tyrell heir to the Iron Throne. She gets that much quicker with Joffrey, and there are countless less risky ways to get rid of him if and when he becomes a problem.

There is virtually no risk of being seen poisoning the pie, since it is out of sight behind the head table during the entire cutting, right where Lady O happens to be standing. At worst, the pie is in the servant's hands when the pigeons take flight, so there is only one pair of eyes that she has to be watching for the split second it takes to tuck the crystal into the filling. There is enormous risk poisoning the wine because it is in a three-foot chalice that is at least an arm's length away from the only possible poisoner (Garlan) and is in plain sight of literally hundreds of people. Even if he could defy the one-in-a-billion odds and successfully drop the poison without being seen, this is simply too great a risk for Lady O considering the entire Tyrell family, save one, is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards. She would literally be risking everything she holds dear to circumvent a problem that simply does not exist, and might not arise for months if not years, all while doing potentially irreparable harm to the Game of Thrones that she's been playing for nearly her entire life.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Bonkers said:

It seems to me that if Tyrion was the intended recipient of the poison, then it had to be Petyr acting alone with perhaps Shae, as there is seemingly no other way for the poison to get there unless it was placed there prior to arriving on the dais.  But this leaves it highly unlikely that Sansa would have an opportunity to escape unnoticed, as she is his wife, sat next to him and will be watched or even blamed.  When LF asks Sansa if anyone said her hairnet was crooked and straightened it for her during the night, it seems very exact to me- not that someone touched it, but the reason why they did.  If this was in fact the case of LF acting alone however, I see no reason that there would be a P.O.D. conspiracy surrounding the poisoning, and any conversations he had with the Tyrells were of no consequence but to create friction between the two Houses. 

If Joffery was the intended recipient, then there must be collusion between at least Olenna and Petyr.  To know about the hairnet she must have been told.  It also implies that Margery was informed to a degree, as to avoid the cup.  Given that LF and Olenna may have had these discussions, it begs the question as to how much do the Martell's know, and what is the purpose of the previous alliance?  If Olenna is trusting a sly man like LF, would she trust Doran Martell?  All LF need do is tell Tywin and it is all over for her, I mean, she already tried to sneak off with Sansa.  I think she would need more assurance than just LF's word.  Why trust LF alone in something so important?  I don't think she would, she would need to have something far more reassuring than that to go ahead with regicide. 

I think you have this part completely backward. Both plotters have a clear motivation for getting rid of Tyrion, but what excuse could Littlefinger give to Lady O as to why he would want to remove Joffrey? Let's go back to Bitterbridge:

Lady O, Mace and Margaery are there when Loras, Tarly and Rowan ride up and give the news of how Renly was slain by Catelyn and the mad maid from Tarth. Then a few days later, Littlefinger comes riding up with his retinue as an envoy from the Iron Throne to discuss an alliance between houses Tyrell and Lannister, sealed by the marriage of Margaery to Joffrey. Lady O should already have a clear idea of what Joffrey is like -- from Loras, if not Renly himself -- but in any event it is LF talking about what a great lad Joffrey is while his men spread the tales about his cruelty.

So after having sealed the deal and gotten the Tyrells to agree to the marriage -- largely be convincing them that all the Joffrey tales are false -- when exactly does Littlefinger then approach Lady O in secret and tell her that Joffrey really is a monster and that Margaery will be cruelly murdered unless Lady O joins the assassination plot? What reason could he possibly give as to why he is willing to risk his neck to rescue Margaery from the peril that he himself has placed her in? Guilt? The goodness of his heart? Or is he going to confide in her that removing Joffrey is part of his plan to conquer all of Westeros?

From Lady O's PoV, why on earth would she trust this shady character, who has just proven himself to be a liar and a double-dealer, in a plot to commit regicide -- particularly when it calls for her to poison the king with her entire family subject to imprisonment, torture and death if this extraordinarily risky plan goes awry, all while LF is sitting safe and comfortable on his boat out in the bay ready to split for Braavos at the first sign of trouble?

Sorry, but Lady O did not get to where she is by being a fool. She has been playing these games for 50 years, and she certainly knows a rat when she smells one.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/15/2017 at 5:04 PM, John Suburbs said:

Lol, careful, or we'll end up taking this thread off-topic. :D

Yup I walked into that one. Still I think it has bearing on the greater issue. Love when people give more me to think about.

On 5/15/2017 at 10:45 PM, Bonkers said:

Nah, I think talking about the poisoning is a great contribution to the topic.  After all, it is pretty much what I raised the question around.  You raise some top points about who the poison was meant for and why it happened. 

One big reason for me that I felt there could be a connection between the three groups, is the timing of all the poisoning happening around the PW.  If we look at it from a different angle, that LF used Shae to poison Tyrion's pie and remove the threat he would uncover all LF's plotting, then we would need to find a good reason for him to involve anyone else.  I am not certain he would directly tell the Tyrells nor Martells about his plan - that would be potential suicide!  But both families do have reason for wanting Tyrion removed (Olenna for Tywin stealing Sansa's claim to the North away from them, and Doran for destroying Tywin's ambition to spread Lannister power all throughout the realm).  Neither are directly about Tyrion himself, but his position as Sansa's husband means he is the target. 

I will return again to my comment about Petyr being out in the bay on the ship.  He could not have just been sitting idle for a month, Sallador Saan pirating, and the traders would want to be trading.  He must have been somewhere, and somewhere to have messengers reach his people in Kings Landing.  If, IF, he had been in Dorne, then messages may have passed between Doran and Oberyn without anyone else reading them.  If not by raven, then someone would have to be traveling on foot, or he used trading galleys to transport his messengers to his people.  Given LF actively created tension between Tyrell and Lannister (snitching on them marrying Sansa to Wiilas and informing on Joffery's mistreatment of Sansa), it could be to the favour of Doran Martell.

The problem I have with him being the one to poison Tyrion, not Joffery,  is his proximity to KL when it happened, and his need for messages to reach him in a timely fashion.  He was waaay out in the bay when Sansa reached him.  Hours out.  The bells could no longer be heard.  Yet one of the first things LF says to her is

"He sold you for a promise of ten thousand dragons. Your disappearance will make them suspect you in Joffery's death." 

LF knew Joffery was dead.  I find it highly unlikely he was told before hand, as he was so far out and on a ship no raven would find. Of course I don't know for certain, but I find it hard to see how that would happen. 

I have always been a big believer in the theory that Oberyn poisioned Tywin. The clues are all there for the observant reader. It eliminates the only man who can hold the Tyrell/Lannister coalition together and prevent the return of whichever Targaryen the Martells end up supporting. Also gives Oberyn the ability to fight the Mountain.

I need to reread the section on the boat but Baelish says very little and basically lets Sansa draw her own conclusions.

6 minutes ago, John Suburbs said:

Sansa's opportunity to escape is the same as with Joffrey: the specter of someone choking to death gives her the chance to slip away unseen, even by the little birds.

If Tyrion is believed to have choked, there is no need to affix blame on anyone. After the fact, Sansa's disappearance will cast suspicion on her, but by then she is gone.

To understand how the hairnet comes into play, you have to understand what each of the plotters knew at different points in the planning timeline:

At the time the hairnet was delivered, LF has little more than a vague idea that he needs to create a diversion somewhere by killing someone. He does not know who or how yet, but he needs to be sure he can get the two crucial pieces, Sansa and the poison, in the same place at the same time. He can't very well let Dontos hold the hairnet until the full plan is in place -- he would likely sell it for booze. He can't keep it himself because he might not be able to get it to Sansa at a later point, when all the dust from the battle has settled down. And he can't give it to anyone else because it could be used as evidence should the holder betray him. The best course is to get it to Sansa because she does not know what it contains or how it factors into her escape. All she knows is that she must wear it as instructed or the deal is off.

Lady O, of course, is not part of the plot at this point. Her motive for killing Tyrion does not arise until after Sansa marries Tyrion and after the Red Wedding. Once her situation makes Tyrion's death imperative for her, LF approaches her to join the plot, but this is long after the hairnet is in Sansa's possession.

The hairnet makes absolutely no sense if the target is Joffrey. If Lady O signed onto this plot way back at Bitterbridge, then there is no reason to risk discovery by having Lady O pretend to fiddle with Sansa's hair. She could just carry the poison herself.

As I've argued before, neither LF or LO have any reason at all to get rid of Joffrey. Joff will be just as chaotic, if not more, than Cersei, and is far more manipulable by Littlefinger, while Lady O's primary object in the match is not to provide a safe, happy life for Margaery but to produce a Tyrell heir to the Iron Throne. She gets that much quicker with Joffrey, and there are countless less risky ways to get rid of him if and when he becomes a problem.

There is virtually no risk of being seen poisoning the pie, since it is out of sight behind the head table during the entire cutting, right where Lady O happens to be standing. At worst, the pie is in the servant's hands when the pigeons take flight, so there is only one pair of eyes that she has to be watching for the split second it takes to tuck the crystal into the filling. There is enormous risk poisoning the wine because it is in a three-foot chalice that is at least an arm's length away from the only possible poisoner (Garlan) and is in plain sight of literally hundreds of people. Even if he could defy the one-in-a-billion odds and successfully drop the poison without being seen, this is simply too great a risk for Lady O considering the entire Tyrell family, save one, is in the throne room surrounded by Lannister guards. She would literally be risking everything she holds dear to circumvent a problem that simply does not exist, and might not arise for months if not years, all while doing potentially irreparable harm to the Game of Thrones that she's been playing for nearly her entire life.

 

Actually I think Petyr Baelish has plenty of motivation to kill Joffrey. I honestly believe that Baelish had nothing to do with Ned's death and it was just Joff doing Joff things, also I can't see it ever being confirmed in the books without some massive asspull. Petyr even states how hard it is to manipulate Joff because he is a violent idiot. He can play Cersei like a fiddle and everyone else in House Lannister seems to like him, even when Tyrion points out how he is playing them.

Frankly I can see either one being poisoned being helpful to him. Either way the other one will be blamed for the murder. Still I think he wanted to hit two birds with one stone. Poison Joff to eliminate a chaotic element that can't be controlled and pin it on Tyrion (who everyone already hates anyway). Granted Baelish has already attempted to kill Tyrion several times at this point but this fits his MO a lot more.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
45 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Actually I think Petyr Baelish has plenty of motivation to kill Joffrey. I honestly believe that Baelish had nothing to do with Ned's death and it was just Joff doing Joff things, also I can't see it ever being confirmed in the books without some massive asspull. Petyr even states how hard it is to manipulate Joff because he is a violent idiot. He can play Cersei like a fiddle and everyone else in House Lannister seems to like him, even when Tyrion points out how he is playing them.

Frankly I can see either one being poisoned being helpful to him. Either way the other one will be blamed for the murder. Still I think he wanted to hit two birds with one stone. Poison Joff to eliminate a chaotic element that can't be controlled and pin it on Tyrion (who everyone already hates anyway). Granted Baelish has already attempted to kill Tyrion several times at this point but this fits his MO a lot more.

I can't think of a single case in which LF manipulated Cersie in any way. At best, he counsels her to spread lies about Selyse and Patchface, but this is hardly manipulation. It's not like he is getting her to do something against her own interests. With Joffrey, we have the manipulation over the dwarf joust, plus I think it will be revealed that LF was behind both Ned's execution and Bran's assassination attempt. I'd like to see the quote where LF says Joff is hard to manipulate.

If Joff is a "chaotic element" then why would LF want to eliminate him? Chaos is what he uses to obtain power, he says so himself. Joff is the most chaotic character in the book -- far more so than Cersei has been at this point.

Sorry, but the logistics in just getting the poison into the wine are already impossible to predict. There is no way LF could know ahead of time that everything was going to happen just the way it did in order to kill Joffrey and pin the blame on Tyrion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, John Suburbs said:

I can't think of a single case in which LF manipulated Cersie in any way. At best, he counsels her to spread lies about Selyse and Patchface, but this is hardly manipulation. It's not like he is getting her to do something against her own interests. With Joffrey, we have the manipulation over the dwarf joust, plus I think it will be revealed that LF was behind both Ned's execution and Bran's assassination attempt. I'd like to see the quote where LF says Joff is hard to manipulate.

If Joff is a "chaotic element" then why would LF want to eliminate him? Chaos is what he uses to obtain power, he says so himself. Joff is the most chaotic character in the book -- far more so than Cersei has been at this point.

Sorry, but the logistics in just getting the poison into the wine are already impossible to predict. There is no way LF could know ahead of time that everything was going to happen just the way it did in order to kill Joffrey and pin the blame on Tyrion.

You can because you never see a POV there to see it. The only reason you think about the other ones is that is because what Baelish has said. Also really think Baelish is behind the Bran assassination attempt... who do you think he is Bloodraven? The logistics of that are literally impossible.

As far as the quote.

Quote

"I had to send to Braavos for them and hide them away in a brothel until the wedding. The expense was exceeded only by the bother. It is surprisingly difficult to hide a dwarf, and Joffrey . . . you can lead a king to water, but with Joff one had to splash it about before he realized he could drink it. When I told him about my little surprise, His Grace said, 'Why would I want some ugly dwarfs at my feast? I hate dwarfs.' I had to take him by the shoulder and whisper, 'Not as much as your uncle will.'"

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

You can because you never see a POV there to see it. The only reason you think about the other ones is that is because what Baelish has said. Also really think Baelish is behind the Bran assassination attempt... who do you think he is Bloodraven? The logistics of that are literally impossible.

As far as the quote.

 

Sorry, I don't follow. I can do what because I never see what in a POV? What "other ones" am I thinking about that Baelish has said? If this is about Petyr manipulating Cersei, then no, there is not a single example of him getting her to do something that goes against her interests. Cersei is no genius, but she is far more world-aware than Joffrey and has a much firmer grasp on where her power comes from and how to wield it. Joffrey is just clueless.

You're quote proves my point: he doesn't just tell Joffrey what he wants him to do, he easily manipulates him into doing it. Not a problem at all for a crafty guy like Littlefinger -- literally, a single whisper in the ear.

No, the logistics are not impossible. Here is how it could have gone down with LF not knowing a thing about what is happening at Winterfell:

Before Joffrey and the royal party have even left King's Landing, LF pulls Joffrey aside and tells him that Robert is going to ask Ned to be his Hand and that this would be very bad for him (Joffrey) and House Lannister in general -- a notion that would be reinforced if Joff happens to hear his mother and Jaime arguing about it. He then says the only way to prevent this from happening is if some major family tragedy were to befall House Stark, say, the death of one of the children.

When Bran fell, it appeared to Joffrey that the problem had taken care of itself. But when Ned decided to come south anyway, he had to put the catspaw in motion in a vain attempt to get Ned to change his mind. This is the only way to explain Joffrey's motivation (no, he was not giving Bran the gift of mercy to impress Robert; that's just plain silly) and why the attempt was so clumsy: the instigation came from Littlefinger but the execution was all Joffrey.

If Bran hadn't fallen, it would have been one of the other children -- probably Sansa, whom I suspect he was planning to murder on their little ride on the Trident, but that's another story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

As I've argued before, neither LF or LO have any reason at all to get rid of Joffrey. Joff will be just as chaotic, if not more, than Cersei, and is far more manipulable by Littlefinger, while Lady O's primary object in the match is not to provide a safe, happy life for Margaery but to produce a Tyrell heir to the Iron Throne. She gets that much quicker with Joffrey, and there are countless less risky ways to get rid of him if and when he becomes a problem.

My opinion .. LF was given the idea when Tyrion told him he would offer him Harrenhal for convincing Lysa to take Marcella.  He then arranges for Dontos to meet with Sansa immediately, as he now has the opportunity to take Sansa to the Vale with him.  But it is all ruined when Tyrion is found to have lied to him about it all, so he goes to Highgarden to offer Joffery to Margery in order to get Harrenhal back on the table and be able to marry Lysa.  His ability to continue his plan is totally dependent on whether the Tyrell's agree to the match. 

Now, of course the Tyrell's will agree to making Marg queen, however Joffery's reputation and character is a big red flag for LO.  As you say, she is very intelligent, and she is most likely aware that Joff could mistreat Marg, not only causing Marg pain and suffering, but by potentially creating another kingslayer moment with Loras protecting her.  Loras is cocksure and arrogant, and just like Jamie was at his age - meaning he could very well act impulsively when Margery is at risk. 

This set of very real possibilities would perhaps lead LO to the conclusion that if left to chance, Marg would produce an heir to the throne with a terrible father, and if that father is killed under whatever circumstance then the throne is unsecured, and a regency gives a chance for the Lannisters to manipulate it for their own gain again.  There are many risks involved for LO by allowing Joffery to be left as king.  In order for Marg to produce multiple heirs she would have to endure years of torment.   But if Tommen were the husband then the risks are diminished greatly and Tyrell gets to produce many heirs to a more stable-minded father.  I doubt the length of regency is as much an issue to LO then the stability of future heirs.  If Loras interfered before an heir was produced, the whole deal is off, and she couldn't even marry Tommen after. 

I don't know how reliable her account of the tale is, but I do know that LO tells Sansa she refused to marry into the Targ family because of their maddness.  If that is true, it stands to reason that she would want to prevent her granddaughter from doing the same. 

Given this, I find it reasonable that LO would have considered removing Joff before it could provide issues.  The wedding is the perfect time - or before - as it allows the Tyrell's to secure Tommen without suspicion.  Mace Tyrell would not need any convincing, but  LF had to convince LO that marrying Joff is a good idea given his reputation.  It may be possible that he spoke about Tommen to her also, and subtly put the idea forward. 

The idea that there was no reason for LF to remove Joff is not entirely true to me, as I think the idea that the Tyrells and Lannister's both struggling for the most power over the throne would be sure to cause tensions and be a very strained and chaotic relationship.  Tommen being king needs guidance and more 'molding' than Joff, and the idea of the Tyrells and Lannisters both trying to be the more influential is bound to cause chaos in the longer regency. 

The hairnet is only then presented to Sansa the day LF is publicly rewarded Harrenhal, and Margery is officially betrothed to Joff so he now has his original plan secured.  The wedding of Joff and Marg is now his chosen time.  I think if he was planning on killing Tyrion, there is plenty of occasion to do it before the wedding, he has numerous catspaws to arrange it when he has left KL.  If LO is involved there are plenty of less risky ways to do it rather than at the wedding in public.  As you mentioned, she could have just carried the poison herself and poisoned him some other way, instead of relying on Sansa and the hairnet.  But if Joff is to be killed, it is best to do it publicly to ensure there is no question raised implicating a Tyrell or LF - instead make someone else look guilty...like Tyrion after his presented with the jousters JUST before the pie is brought forth. 

There is the high possibility that it is just pure luck Tyrion was able to be so easily framed, and that it may not have been the plan.  We really don't know until the final books come out.  But I do think there are plenty of reasons for LO to have wanted Joff murdered at that point in time. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

Sorry, I don't follow. I can do what because I never see what in a POV? What "other ones" am I thinking about that Baelish has said? If this is about Petyr manipulating Cersei, then no, there is not a single example of him getting her to do something that goes against her interests. Cersei is no genius, but she is far more world-aware than Joffrey and has a much firmer grasp on where her power comes from and how to wield it. Joffrey is just clueless.

You're quote proves my point: he doesn't just tell Joffrey what he wants him to do, he easily manipulates him into doing it. Not a problem at all for a crafty guy like Littlefinger -- literally, a single whisper in the ear.

No, the logistics are not impossible. Here is how it could have gone down with LF not knowing a thing about what is happening at Winterfell:

Before Joffrey and the royal party have even left King's Landing, LF pulls Joffrey aside and tells him that Robert is going to ask Ned to be his Hand and that this would be very bad for him (Joffrey) and House Lannister in general -- a notion that would be reinforced if Joff happens to hear his mother and Jaime arguing about it. He then says the only way to prevent this from happening is if some major family tragedy were to befall House Stark, say, the death of one of the children.

When Bran fell, it appeared to Joffrey that the problem had taken care of itself. But when Ned decided to come south anyway, he had to put the catspaw in motion in a vain attempt to get Ned to change his mind. This is the only way to explain Joffrey's motivation (no, he was not giving Bran the gift of mercy to impress Robert; that's just plain silly) and why the attempt was so clumsy: the instigation came from Littlefinger but the execution was all Joffrey.

If Bran hadn't fallen, it would have been one of the other children -- probably Sansa, whom I suspect he was planning to murder on their little ride on the Trident, but that's another story.

This doesn't make sense to me, as LF was the one who had the letter sent to Cat that had her convince Ned to go to KL.  Why would he not want Ned to go, yet have Cat convince him to go? 

I can't see any real evidence to suggest strongly that Joff had anything to do with Bran's assassination attempt honestly.  He seems to not care about Bran, he says "The Stark boy is nothing to me", it is the wolves howling he complains about.  When the Hound suggests he could silence Summer, Joff laughs and says "send a dog to kill a dog"....Tyrion later misremebers what he said and thinks he said "send a dog to kill a wolf" implying he meant Bran, but it is not how the conversation went at all.  And Joff's comment about not being a stranger to Valyrian steel doesn't really mean anything.  As the king's son he is likely to have seen some at some point, including Ned Stark's sword - that beheaded him at Joff's command.  Joff says that dragonbone is too plain for a hilt, I think it is only in reference to his new sword's hilt.  That dagger is likely to be of great value, and not only was the assassin handed it, but given a big bag of silver.  I doubt a catspaw would have waited for weeks after everyone left Winterfell and then done the deed....he would have just made off with the goods and not risked the kill.  It just doesn't add up to me.  Putting a catspaw 'in motion', as you say, AFTER they have all left Winterfell anyway gives no reason to prevent Ned leaving. 

The dagger was claimed by LF to be his, then to Tyrion.  But Jamie says Robert was boasting about it that night at the feast to rub Jamie's loss in his face.  Renly and probably Robert are known to bet against Jamie.  If it was in Robert's baggage chain up to Winterfell (even though he only ever used the hunting knife given to him by Jon Arryn), then it had to belong to Robert when it was taken for the assassination.  It is a very obvious blade to anyone who knows what Valyrian steel and dragonbone look like, and would seem to frame Robert if it is discovered, or at least someone of high birth enough to own it.  This does imply that a stupid Joff may have unknowingly hired a catspaw with it, but if he is "no stranger to Valyrian steel" or dragonbone, then he must have known what the dagger was.  Just a few thoughts.

I know some people have discussed that it may have been the work of Bloodraven for some reason, but I can't see why Bloodraven would want Bran dead.  Other people have also discussed that it may have been the Great Other using people to murder Bran, to prevent him becoming teamed up with Bloodraven.  But I have yet to subscribe to either of these theories. 

All I know is that if it were just a stupid, vicious Joffery who says he doesn't care about Bran, then it was badly written - as I said, it is unrealistic to assume that any desperate catspaw would wait around for weeks after the hirer has left, risking being found, and not just made off with the money and dagger.  If he were the world's most honest catspaw, and was told to wait until they were well and truly gone before killing Bran, then nobody really has any reason to want Bran dead at that point but Cersei and Jamie who, according to their PoV chapters, had nothing to do with it.   

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, Bonkers said:

My opinion .. LF was given the idea when Tyrion told him he would offer him Harrenhal for convincing Lysa to take Marcella.  He then arranges for Dontos to meet with Sansa immediately, as he now has the opportunity to take Sansa to the Vale with him.  But it is all ruined when Tyrion is found to have lied to him about it all, so he goes to Highgarden to offer Joffery to Margery in order to get Harrenhal back on the table and be able to marry Lysa.  His ability to continue his plan is totally dependent on whether the Tyrell's agree to the match. 

Now, of course the Tyrell's will agree to making Marg queen, however Joffery's reputation and character is a big red flag for LO.  As you say, she is very intelligent, and she is most likely aware that Joff could mistreat Marg, not only causing Marg pain and suffering, but by potentially creating another kingslayer moment with Loras protecting her.  Loras is cocksure and arrogant, and just like Jamie was at his age - meaning he could very well act impulsively when Margery is at risk. 

This set of very real possibilities would perhaps lead LO to the conclusion that if left to chance, Marg would produce an heir to the throne with a terrible father, and if that father is killed under whatever circumstance then the throne is unsecured, and a regency gives a chance for the Lannisters to manipulate it for their own gain again.  There are many risks involved for LO by allowing Joffery to be left as king.  In order for Marg to produce multiple heirs she would have to endure years of torment.   But if Tommen were the husband then the risks are diminished greatly and Tyrell gets to produce many heirs to a more stable-minded father.  I doubt the length of regency is as much an issue to LO then the stability of future heirs.  If Loras interfered before an heir was produced, the whole deal is off, and she couldn't even marry Tommen after. 

I don't know how reliable her account of the tale is, but I do know that LO tells Sansa she refused to marry into the Targ family because of their maddness.  If that is true, it stands to reason that she would want to prevent her granddaughter from doing the same. 

Given this, I find it reasonable that LO would have considered removing Joff before it could provide issues.  The wedding is the perfect time - or before - as it allows the Tyrell's to secure Tommen without suspicion.  Mace Tyrell would not need any convincing, but  LF had to convince LO that marrying Joff is a good idea given his reputation.  It may be possible that he spoke about Tommen to her also, and subtly put the idea forward. 

The idea that there was no reason for LF to remove Joff is not entirely true to me, as I think the idea that the Tyrells and Lannister's both struggling for the most power over the throne would be sure to cause tensions and be a very strained and chaotic relationship.  Tommen being king needs guidance and more 'molding' than Joff, and the idea of the Tyrells and Lannisters both trying to be the more influential is bound to cause chaos in the longer regency. 

The hairnet is only then presented to Sansa the day LF is publicly rewarded Harrenhal, and Margery is officially betrothed to Joff so he now has his original plan secured.  The wedding of Joff and Marg is now his chosen time.  I think if he was planning on killing Tyrion, there is plenty of occasion to do it before the wedding, he has numerous catspaws to arrange it when he has left KL.  If LO is involved there are plenty of less risky ways to do it rather than at the wedding in public.  As you mentioned, she could have just carried the poison herself and poisoned him some other way, instead of relying on Sansa and the hairnet.  But if Joff is to be killed, it is best to do it publicly to ensure there is no question raised implicating a Tyrell or LF - instead make someone else look guilty...like Tyrion after his presented with the jousters JUST before the pie is brought forth. 

There is the high possibility that it is just pure luck Tyrion was able to be so easily framed, and that it may not have been the plan.  We really don't know until the final books come out.  But I do think there are plenty of reasons for LO to have wanted Joff murdered at that point in time. 

 

 

 

Not bad. Couple of problems, though. For one, Littlefinger could not possibly think he could get Sansa out of the capital unseen as part of his mission to the Vale. He needs a diversion to do that, and he doesn't even have the poison in place yet. Otherwise, he could have taken her at any time and not even bothered with killing anyone.

Secondly, it was Tyrion's idea to offer Joffrey for Margaery. Littlefinger just brokered the deal -- at Bitterbridge, not Highgarden. Highgarden is merely a means to an end, so losing it initially was a setback to his quest for power, but it was not crucial to the plan to remove Sansa from the capital. He could just as easily kept her in the Fingers, or Braavos.

As for the rest, this all rests on the fallacy that Lady O thinks Joff is a threat to Margaery, and there is simply nothing to support that contention and ample text that disputes it -- not only Lady O and Margaery's statements but Joff's own behavior toward her. Sansa was beaten for specific reasons and for the history she and Joffrey shared. Margaery has none of this baggage and it is pure fanfic, driven largely by the show, to think that Joffrey just goes around beating highborn ladies at random. Even if he does turn on her, a few black eyes and a bloody lip are well worth the price of the Iron Throne. Many queens, both real and fictional, have endured far worse for their crowns, including Cersei. As I said above, if Joff becomes a problem for Margaery someday, there are ample ways to remove Joffrey without drawing suspicion and without risking the lives of the entire Tyrell family, and by then she will have already produced multiple Tyrell heirs to the IT. And sorry, but nothing short of Margaery's bloody corpse dumped at his feet will spur Loras into the rage he showed after Renley's death, and that is simply not going to happen -- Joffrey just does not up and kill people without reason and without warning.

The throne is not unsecured if Joffrey dies after Margaery births an heir. For the Tyrells it is more secured because their own blood is now king, and if he's underage that means Margaery serves as regent and can dismiss all the Lannisters in the capital and their retainers if she wants.

There is absolutely no way to conclude that anyone would think King Tommen would be more chaotic than King Joffrey. Tommen is universally considered to be a bright, thoughtful boy while Joffrey is a self-centered idiot.

Killing Tyrion before the wedding does not produce the chaos he needs to get Sansa out unseen. There are also plenty of occasions to murder Joffrey through any one of these well-place catspaws. And in order to pin the murder on Joffrey, LF and LO would have to know ahead of time all of the following:

that the dwarf joust would produce the desired conflict between them

that the conflict would involve the chalice

that Tyrion would be named cup-bearer

that Tyrion would be handling the chalice just before Joff drinks the poison

and that Joff would place the chalice in the exact spot for Garlan to reach it -- not a foot to the left or to the right -- and then walk away to cut the pie.

If even one of these utterly unpredictable things fails to happen, then they have no Tyrion to lay the blame -- which leaves the Tyrells as the prime suspects, since they were the ones who provided the chalice and the Martells were nowhere near it the entire time -- and they might not even get the poison into Joffrey.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, Bonkers said:

This doesn't make sense to me, as LF was the one who had the letter sent to Cat that had her convince Ned to go to KL.  Why would he not want Ned to go, yet have Cat convince him to go? 

I can't see any real evidence to suggest strongly that Joff had anything to do with Bran's assassination attempt honestly.  He seems to not care about Bran, he says "The Stark boy is nothing to me", it is the wolves howling he complains about.  When the Hound suggests he could silence Summer, Joff laughs and says "send a dog to kill a dog"....Tyrion later misremebers what he said and thinks he said "send a dog to kill a wolf" implying he meant Bran, but it is not how the conversation went at all.  And Joff's comment about not being a stranger to Valyrian steel doesn't really mean anything.  As the king's son he is likely to have seen some at some point, including Ned Stark's sword - that beheaded him at Joff's command.  Joff says that dragonbone is too plain for a hilt, I think it is only in reference to his new sword's hilt.  That dagger is likely to be of great value, and not only was the assassin handed it, but given a big bag of silver.  I doubt a catspaw would have waited for weeks after everyone left Winterfell and then done the deed....he would have just made off with the goods and not risked the kill.  It just doesn't add up to me.  Putting a catspaw 'in motion', as you say, AFTER they have all left Winterfell anyway gives no reason to prevent Ned leaving. 

The dagger was claimed by LF to be his, then to Tyrion.  But Jamie says Robert was boasting about it that night at the feast to rub Jamie's loss in his face.  Renly and probably Robert are known to bet against Jamie.  If it was in Robert's baggage chain up to Winterfell (even though he only ever used the hunting knife given to him by Jon Arryn), then it had to belong to Robert when it was taken for the assassination.  It is a very obvious blade to anyone who knows what Valyrian steel and dragonbone look like, and would seem to frame Robert if it is discovered, or at least someone of high birth enough to own it.  This does imply that a stupid Joff may have unknowingly hired a catspaw with it, but if he is "no stranger to Valyrian steel" or dragonbone, then he must have known what the dagger was.  Just a few thoughts.

I know some people have discussed that it may have been the work of Bloodraven for some reason, but I can't see why Bloodraven would want Bran dead.  Other people have also discussed that it may have been the Great Other using people to murder Bran, to prevent him becoming teamed up with Bloodraven.  But I have yet to subscribe to either of these theories. 

All I know is that if it were just a stupid, vicious Joffery who says he doesn't care about Bran, then it was badly written - as I said, it is unrealistic to assume that any desperate catspaw would wait around for weeks after the hirer has left, risking being found, and not just made off with the money and dagger.  If he were the world's most honest catspaw, and was told to wait until they were well and truly gone before killing Bran, then nobody really has any reason to want Bran dead at that point but Cersei and Jamie who, according to their PoV chapters, had nothing to do with it.   

 

LF doesn't care whether Ned comes south or not. That's just the story he gives Joffrey to get him to act. His only goal is to foster hostility between wolf and lion.

Joffrey's reaction to Tyrion's mention of the dagger at the breakfast speaks volumes:

Quote

"Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, Say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain."

There is only one VS dagger with a dragonbone hilt in the story, so if Joffrey had no idea what Tyrion was talking about there would have been a puzzled look, not a sharp one, he would be wondering why Tyrion would mention dragonbone at all. Plus, only someone of Joffrey's mentality could come up with a plan so clumsy.

Ned came south anyway because it looked like Bran's fall was an accident. If word reach them on the road that he was found murdered in his bed, that might cause Ned to return to Winterfell -- at least to Joffrey's way of thinking.

It wasn't just stupid, vicious Joffrey. He was being manipulated by Littlefinger to believe that killing a Stark child was in his best interests.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am in agreement with you on Joffrey’s reaction to Tyrion quizzing him about his familiarity with Valyrian steel speaking volumes – even Sansa notices it (it’s her IVth POV chapter). Tyrion’s reaction in the next chapter is also worth considering: “The why of it still eluded him. Simple cruelty, perhaps? His nephew had that in abundance. It was all Tyrion could do not to retch up all the wine he’d drunk, piss in his breeches, or both. He squirmed uncomfortably. He ought to have held his tongue at breakfast. The boy knows I know now. My big mouth will be the death of me, I swear it.” (Tyrion VIII, my emphasis added)

I read that as strongly affirmative of Tyrion believing Joffrey is behind the Winterfell plot, almost without question. He after all, suffered greatly from being accused by Catelyn of masterminding the plot, and resultingly have strong motivations to find out what had actually occurred (and to repay any family debts that are warranted, in due course). That quote follows three paragraphs of his speculation (including Tyrion’s misremembered quote, of ‘Send a dog to kill a wolf’). It’s tempting to read all of that exposition with the expectation of it being very likely true, but I think it could also contain one of GRRM’s usual tricks of misdirection – an untruth or two well-mixed with a number of details that prove correct.

However, when all is said and done I still think it highly foolish for Littlefinger to have been involved in the planning of the Winterfell plot to any great extent, because should the plot come undone, successfully identifying Joffrey as having provided the Valyrian dagger to the footpad, then Joffrey’s first recourse would almost be certain to pin the blame back on Littlefinger, and denying any knowledge of what would be done with the dagger. Littlefinger well understands compartmentalising a plot, which is why he does not use his catspaw Ser Dontos for anything other than ensuring the presence of the hairnet at the wedding, and the absence of Sansa from King’s Landing afterwards. He also understands that the more elements that are required in such a plot allows more points of failure.

In terms of a ‘plot’ – compared to the sophistication of the Purple Wedding, the Winterfell assassination is a rather ramshackle affair, by sheer absence of well-prepared planning. LF is trying to pull off a more or less random, opportunistic murder (possibly even the choice of victim is left completely to Joff’s discretion? – or rather, the lack of it) at the opposite end of the kingdom, having presumably incited the clueless lad to kill one of the Starks for unspecified, speculative reasons. I will admit that LF does delight in telling Sansa how he ‘always keep[s his] foes confused. If they are never certain who you are or what you want, they cannot know what you are like to do next. Sometimes the best way to baffle them is to make moves that have no purpose, or even seem to work against you’ (Sansa V). But it is highly risky to give over complete operational control to as foolish and intemperate a character as Joffrey Baratheon.

Executive summary: LF would be a fool to have done anything more than the initial incitement. The rest of the plot is all Joffrey’s – who we know is cruel and vicious enough to see the rest through.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So @Seams your one of the experts on parallels etc.

Quote

Petyr Baelish smiled. "I am desperately sentimental, sweet lady. Best not tell anyone. I have spent years convincing the court that I am wicked and cruel, and I should hate to see all that hard work go for naught."

Quote

"The only puzzle is what you might have offered for his allegiance. The prince is a sentimental man, and he still mourns his sister Elia and her sweet babe."

Petyr and Doran are the only two characters who have been called sentimental. Both have kept there forces Vale and Dorne largely out of the War of Five Kings. Both a considered weak or powerless by many contemporaries.

Got anything else? I have more but I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

I certainly think they could have been working together or certainly will before the story is over.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

So @Seams your one of the experts on parallels etc.

Petyr and Doran are the only two characters who have been called sentimental. Both have kept there forces Vale and Dorne largely out of the War of Five Kings. Both a considered weak or powerless by many contemporaries.

Got anything else? I have more but I wanted to get your thoughts on it.

I certainly think they could have been working together or certainly will before the story is over.

Aww, shucks. I'm just a prolific hit-or-miss guesser. GRRM is the expert.

But I love your nice catch on the "sentimental" connection. Very interesting.

I have had a back burner comparison of Ned and Doran in mind for some time. I think GRRM may have a parallel symbolism for sand and snow. The obvious parallel in the invented word "southron" as a backwards version of "north_ _ _" also seems like a hint.

And Littlefinger sets himself up as the "father" of Alayne Stone, creating lots of parallels with Ned / Sansa. So maybe the three of them are a bundle (<- - another key word for GRRM) and Littlefinger would share some traits with Prince Doran.

So what else do you have? I'll start following this thread again if you've got something juicy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Seams said:

Aww, shucks. I'm just a prolific hit-or-miss guesser. GRRM is the expert.

But I love your nice catch on the "sentimental" connection. Very interesting.

I have had a back burner comparison of Ned and Doran in mind for some time. I think GRRM may have a parallel symbolism for sand and snow. The obvious parallel in the invented word "southron" as a backwards version of "north_ _ _" also seems like a hint.

And Littlefinger sets himself up as the "father" of Alayne Stone, creating lots of parallels with Ned / Sansa. So maybe the three of them are a bundle (<- - another key word for GRRM) and Littlefinger would share some traits with Prince Doran.

So what else do you have? I'll start following this thread again if you've got something juicy.

I have a giant thread on another forum. I'll PM you the link if you interested.

Also I agree there are plenty of a parallels between the North and Dorne.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now