Why did Rhaenyra wed Daemon?

[dsug]

Her father didn't even know about it until after the fact. Why did she go with? I never got the impression that they were actually in love, especially since Daemon had just allegedly killed Harwin. Was it just out of necessity?

[purple-eyes]

rhaenyra loved daemon and daemon wanted her power. So they wed. 

[hitman47]

BECAUSE HE WAS HOT AND DANGEROUS

[Universal Sword Donor]

Rhaenyra definitely loved Daemon and the feeling was mutual. Also they liked to f*ck each other, so that probably contributed as well.

[Lord Varys]

There is a rumor that she was already pregnant with Aegon the Younger and didn't want to give birth to a bastard.

Keep in mind that Laena died first, which certainly could have crushed both Daemon and Rhaenyra (who was very close with both of them). Rhaenyra may have comforted Daemon after his loss, losing all interest in Harwin thereafter. And then the deaths continued. How convenient for them.

But we know very much that Rhaenyra always had had a thing for her uncle, and one also assumes Daemon also liked Rhaenyra up to a point. 

Regardless who was behind the death of Laenor and the burning of Harrenhal, there is a good chance that Daemon and Rhaenyra were also sort of forced to join forces to keep up a united front against Alicent's party.

I find it most likely that Larys Strong was behind the burning of Harrenhal and that the real/most important target there was Lord Lyonel Strong to get rid of Viserys I's Black Hand. That opened up the opportunity for Alicent to ensure that Otto would return as Hand. This could have been Larys' way into the inner circle of the Greens were he seems to be when Viserys I dies in 129 AC. Keep in mind that the Aemond lost his eye shortly before that, and Alicent must have been furious after that, hell-bent to destroy Rhaenyra and her brood no matter what.

Laenor could have been Daemon's doing, but the weird fact if he was and if those rumors were believed widely it is quite odd that Corlys and Rhaenys continued to associate with him and Rhaenyra thereafter. I've once suggested Alicent/Otto might also have been after Laenor's death, intending to push again for a Rhaenyra-Aegon marriage once she was free to marry again. That way they could have finally put Aegon in a much better position and perhaps still get a peaceful resolution for all this (or easier way for a coup - with Aegon being Rhaenyra's lord husband they could much easier control her or arrange her death). One assumes that finally changed for them after the Aemond thing.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Because the Realm's delight could only be with the Rogue Prince. They were both one of the kind and so much alike. 

[purple-eyes]

4 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Rhaenyra definitely loved Daemon and the feeling was mutual. Also they liked to f*ck each other, so that probably contributed as well.

I highly doubt Daemon loved Rhaenyra. He also cheated on her later and had a passionate affair with Nattles. 

Plus you have to consider that Rhaenyra has lost much of her beauty when they wed. 

Daemon wanted power and Rhaenyra is future ruling queen. He would wed her no matter if he loved her. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

6 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

He also cheated on her later and had a passionate affair with Nattles. 

Corlys also cheated on Rhaenys and yet he loved her. I don't believe that cheating has something to do with emotions.

[purple-eyes]

9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Corlys also cheated on Rhaenys and yet he loved her. I don't believe that cheating has something to do with emotions.

 

9 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Corlys also cheated on Rhaenys and yet he loved her. I don't believe that cheating has something to do with emotions.

We do not know if Corlys loved Rhaenys. 

He respectes and cared for her, sure. But we were not told it is true man-woman love. Maybe in his whole life he only truly loved mother of Adam and Alyn. 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

2 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

We do not know if Corlys loved Rhaenys. 

He respectes and cared for her, sure. But we were not told it is true man-woman love. Maybe in his whole life he only truly loved mother of Adam and Alyn. 

Do we have any proof that he felt anything about Marilda?

[purple-eyes]

Just now, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Do we have any proof that he felt anything about Marilda?

He ran a huge risk to cheat on a dragon-rider princess (possibly a ruling queen mind you) just for Marilda. 

And he begged Rhaenyra to legitimize both sons of Marilda soon after death of his powerful wife. And he made them his heir. 

(didn't Rhaegar do the similar thing for Lyanna? and we call them star-crossed lovers) 

Actions better than words. 

We do not need something like: Corlys told somebody at his deathbed his true love was only Marilda. 

 

[Jon's Queen Consort]

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

He ran a huge risk to cheat on a dragon-rider princess (possibly a ruling queen mind you) just for Marilda. 

Huge risk for her, no risk for him.

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

And he begged Rhaenyra to legitimize both sons of Marilda soon after death of his powerful wife. And he made them his heir. 

He didn't had heirs by Laenor. So his line would had ended and after all Addam and Allyn were his sons.

5 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

Actions better than words. 

We do not need something like: Corlys told somebody at his deathbed his true love was only Marilda. 

Actions are better than words. Like when Corlys endanger himself to fight with Rhaenyra after Rhaenys' death. That was a risk, having sex with another wasn't.

[Universal Sword Donor]

47 minutes ago, purple-eyes said:

I highly doubt Daemon loved Rhaenyra. He also cheated on her later and had a passionate affair with Nattles. 

Plus you have to consider that Rhaenyra has lost much of her beauty when they wed. 

Daemon wanted power and Rhaenyra is future ruling queen. He would wed her no matter if he loved her. 

 

Your doubt has been noted, weighed, and found wanting. Daemon had plenty of power but marrying Rhaenyra all but guaranteed he wasn't ever going to be a king regnant. He knew what was getting into.

[Lord Varys]

Corlys Velaryon didn't seem to have had a long affair with that Marilda woman. And he was grief-stricken and pretty pissed when Rhaenys died so I think we can say he had deep feelings for her. Whether he ever romantically loved her is another matter but their match could actually have been a love match, at least in part. There wouldn't have been any succession struggle if Rhaenys had wed Viserys instead of Corlys but most likely the famous and far-traveled Sea Snake was much more impressive than boring Viserys. Corlys was also a very fine match, to be sure, worthy of a future queen, but a Rhaenys-Viserys match would have united the bloodlines. But then, nobody expected Prince Aemon to die in 92 AC.

 

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

15 hours ago, dsug said:

Her father didn't even know about it until after the fact. Why did she go with? I never got the impression that they were actually in love, especially since Daemon had just allegedly killed Harwin. Was it just out of necessity?

As not only the head of House Targaryen, but also as the king, Viserys had a lot of power to be able to deny Rhaenyra & Daemon the permission to wed if he so chose to do so. And certainly Daemon, if not also Rhaenyra, knew there were two main reasons why he would deny them:

• In 105AC after naming Rhaenyra the Princess of Dragonstone, Viserys summoned many of the lords of the realm to bend the knee to her, & "honour & defend her right of succession". This was done specifically against Daemon (the king only married Alicent the year after, & Aegon was only born 107, so it wasn't for any future half-brothers Rhaenyra may have with a then-widowed father), even stick-my-head-in-the-sand Viserys knew that Daemon would make a violent, tyrannical king like perhaps even Maegor. Besides his affection for his daughter (& then being stupid enough to remarry - & not even Laena Velaryon - & also not changing the succession after his sons were born, or at least make the lords re-swear their oaths to cover the boys too), Viserys named Rhaenyra PoD so that Daemon wouldn't succeed him.
• In c.112AC, Viserys had already refused to allow Daemon to marry Rhaenyra. Sure, it had been revealed that Daemon had given his niece sexual training &/or was her first full sexual partner (I think it was both), but again, even Viserys would know that his brother was using her to slot himself back into the succession ...

Quote

“Give the girl to me to wife,” (Daemon) purportedly told his brother. “Who else would take her now?” (The Rogue Prince)

Yeah I don't think Daemon ever truly loved Rhaenyra. He also viewed Laena as a means to get closer to the throne, but I certainly think he was more fond of her (perhaps even loved) than he ever was of his niece. Creepy nuncle Daemon groomed Rhaenyra as a girl & early teen for the political power he could gain through a marriage with her. Even fellow groomer & massive creep Cole did so, because he wanted her for himself imo - hence his toxic masculinity when he couldn't have her. As for Rhaenyra with her nuncle ... mayhaps infatuation(?) than love is more apt there, though I certainly think she was into Daemon more than he was into her.

Eustace has quite the bias against Daemon (& Rhaenyra, & the Blacks) & is quite the unreliable source in a period of unreliable sources. I don't think Daemon had any real need to be behind the Harrenhal fire:

• Viserys had effectively exiled Harwin from Dragonstone (i.e. Rhaenyra), sending him back to Harrenhal. Rhaenyra herself didn't leave Dragonstone or Driftmark too often, particularly in the years after Jacaerys & Daeron weren't kept together as milk-brothers.
• As Lord Varys alluded too, it's quite likely that it was Rhaenyra who was there for Daemon (she was still infatuated with him at least) before he was there for her after Laenor Harwin (if indeed she hadn't already set him aside for Daemon - ironic considering Viserys sending Strong back to Harrenhal).
• Aegon was born before 120AC ended (& there's nothing to suggest he was born premature - certainly not say 2 months early like Aerys & Rhaella's Aegon), meaning Daemon impregnated her certainly (possibly months) before the fire at Harrenhal & perhaps (though unlikely) even before Laenor's death.

Well, besides Daemon & Rhaenyra (Eustace is partially right here) wanting to marry each other before Viserys could try to stop them from doing so &/or marrying them off to others, Mushroom gives us the answer:

Quote

The princess was once again with child, and did not wish to birth a bastard. (The Rogue Prince)

 

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

There is a rumor that she was already pregnant with Aegon the Younger and didn't want to give birth to a bastard.

Given that the fire at Harrenhal likely only happened in the 5th or 6th month of 120AC, Daemon & Rhaenyra's marriage was revealed to court only after Otto returned to KL from Oldtown (a number of weeks after the fire itself given the time for the new Hand to be named after that, & Otto to get there), & that Aegon was born before the year was out (& seemingly not premature); this is fact, imo. Not very likely, but there's a chance that Daemon impregnated his niece (which of course need not at all be the first time they rekindle their sexual trysts since c.112) even before Laenor's death.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Keep in mind that Laena died first, which certainly could have crushed both Daemon and Rhaenyra (who was very close with both of them). Rhaenyra may have comforted Daemon after his loss, losing all interest in Harwin thereafter. And then the deaths continued. How convenient for them. Regardless who was behind the death of Laenor and the burning of Harrenhal, there is a good chance that Daemon and Rhaenyra were also sort of forced to join forces to keep up a united front against Alicent's party. I find it most likely that Larys Strong was behind the burning of Harrenhal and that the real/most important target there was Lord Lyonel Strong to get rid of Viserys I's Black Hand. That opened up the opportunity for Alicent to ensure that Otto would return as Hand. This could have been Larys' way into the inner circle of the Greens were he seems to be when Viserys I dies in 129 AC. Keep in mind that the Aemond lost his eye shortly before that, and Alicent must have been furious after that, hell-bent to destroy Rhaenyra and her brood no matter what.

Good point on Rhaenyra perhaps being the instigator of the relationship with Daemon, & ironic considering the lengths of his previous attempt to seduce & marry her. I find this the more likely of the two as well - Rhaenyra obviously wouldn't need comforting over Laenor (though I do think they worked out ok together considering, seemingly with the agreement each would have their paramour & Laenor would acknowledge her sons as his for their mutual benefit), & as you say, she very well could have moved on from Harwin by/around this time.

Also on joining forces - they had more power united & Daemon, if not Rhaenyra too (even with the Velaryons), didn't have enough alone to take on the Greens.

Agreed also on Larys being behind Harrenhal, likely in collusion with Alicent/the Greens (nice point on Alicent's further motivations post-Laenor's funeral). The link sums up well why Corlys, nor Daemon (on top of what I've already said), nor Viserys (I wonder why Mellos named the king though, particularly as he died before him - if Runciter was still the Grand Maester at the time then I'd not be surprised at all, given his manipulation of the Viserys-Alicent match ...) was the conspirator.

6 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Laenor could have been Daemon's doing, but the weird fact if he was and if those rumors were believed widely it is quite odd that Corlys and Rhaenys continued to associate with him and Rhaenyra thereafter. I've once suggested Alicent/Otto might also have been after Laenor's death, intending to push again for a Rhaenyra-Aegon marriage once she was free to marry again. That way they could have finally put Aegon in a much better position and perhaps still get a peaceful resolution for all this (or easier way for a coup - with Aegon being Rhaenyra's lord husband they could much easier control her or arrange her death). One assumes that finally changed for them after the Aemond thing.

I can certainly see the Hightowers (Alicent is more capable than her father here imo, actually in just about everything) being behind Laenor's death for this reasoning, though I still think it Daemon was more likely. He has better means (actually knowing not only Laenor, but also Qarl), motive (Rhaenyra widowed for himself), & opportunity (he was living on Driftmark at the time). I don't think Corlys & Rhaenys are a factor because it was Mushroom who theorised it was Daemon, & his Testimony was only published after the Dance, if not also the Regency. Even if Mushroom was literate & kept notes like Varys did, nothing suggests (IIRC) that any of the courts he was around knew he had such, or indeed that he was even voicing anything that would later feature in his book. Both Rhaenys & Corlys were pretty deep into their grief at this time, & although if they suspected/knew Daemon was behind Laenor's death he himself would be dead, they were pragmatic - allying against the Triarchy only 5 years after the shit Daemon pulled at the GC, & of course continuing the charade of Rhaenyra & Laenor's sons being trueborn because Baela & Rhaena were betrothed to the two eldest.

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

I highly doubt Daemon loved Rhaenyra. He also cheated on her later and had a passionate affair with Nattles. Plus you have to consider that Rhaenyra has lost much of her beauty when they wed. Daemon wanted power and Rhaenyra is future ruling queen. He would wed her no matter if he loved her.

It is known, along with that of your original reply. Certainly Daemon was more fond of Laena than he ever was with Rhaenyra, & the princess was far more of a political power tool to him even more than what the lady was. I think he definitely "liked" her to a degree (even after what three childbirths had done to her figure, good point though), but love is stretching it, yes.

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Corlys also cheated on Rhaenys and yet he loved her. I don't believe that cheating has something to do with emotions ... Do we have any proof that he felt anything about Marilda?

Exactly. Numerous people, in-universe & IRL, cheat even though they still love their spouse/partner. Cheating in monogamous-intended (despite the general blind eye to noble males cheating, their marriages - especially those done within the Faith - are meant to be this) relationships/marriages doesn't mean that the one doing it has to be "out of love".

Not really. (We don't even learn her name until The World of Ice & Fire!)

1 hour ago, purple-eyes said:

We do not know if Corlys loved Rhaenys. 

I disagree, I could go on forever about the love & strength of Corlys & Rhaenys' marriage, but this sums it up:

Quote

When word reached Dragonstone that Princess Rhaenys had fallen, angry words were exchanged between the queen and Lord Velaryon, who blamed her for his wife’s death. “It should have been you,” the Sea Snake shouted at Her Grace. “Staunton sent to you, yet you left it to my wife to answer, and forbade your sons to join her!” ... It was Jace who came to the fore now, late in the year 129 AC. First he brought the Lord of the Tides back into the fold by naming him the Hand of the Queen. Together he and Lord Corlys began to plan an assault upon King’s Landing. (The Princess & the Queen)

As his own men later would when Rhaenyra imprisoned him, Corlys was ready to abandon Rhaenyra. He was so grief-stricken for Rhaenys (& even if not thinking clearly because of such), he risked not only the causes, but the lives of his legal grandchildren (Jace, Luke, & Joff), his trueborn granddaughters (Baela & Rhaena), his "grand"sons (Addam & Alyn), other relations (Daeron & Daenaera at least), his fleets, his people, his home, & perhaps least of all, himself. We know, & he knew, that Rhaenyra & Daemon weren't exactly the forgiving types - just look at what happened to Vaemond & many of his other relations (whilst Corlys himself was bedridden too). Not too mention the supermassive advantage this would be to the Greens, who'd still likely, trim, House Velaryon had they won earlier.

2 hours ago, purple-eyes said:

He ran a huge risk to cheat on a dragon-rider princess (possibly a ruling queen mind you) just for Marilda. And he begged Rhaenyra to legitimize both sons of Marilda soon after death of his powerful wife. And he made them his heir. (didn't Rhaegar do the similar thing for Lyanna? and we call them star-crossed lovers)

True, that the Sea Snake was slithering dangerously having an affair whilst married to the Queen Who Never Always Was. I don't think he begged Rhaenyra, it says he petitioned her - he was of course her most powerful supporter (probably even more than Daemon) & now her Hand. If anything, Rhaenyra had to keep it sweet with Corlys to still ensure he would stay by her side so soon after Rhaenys' death. I see it as like what Lord Varys has said (via statements from Ran) multiple times elsewhere about Corlys' support of Aegon II in the last months of the Dance - it came with conditions favourable to Corlys & House Velaryon. Obviously Jace (now Prince of Dragonstone anyway) & Joff (maybe, maybe not, betrothed to Rhaena after Lucerys' death) were bastards not of (recent) Velaryon blood, & Luke's death had shown that even with Rhaenyra trying to protect them from fighting, at least one of them had a fair chance of dying before the war was over (& that's if the Blacks even won). Also bastards, but Addam & Alyn of course had the Velaryon blood. Although Luke was made Corlys' heir before his death, & perhaps Joff had been intended for such too afterwards, it was in Rhaenyra's best interests to legitimise the Hull boys & make them the heirs to Driftmark - Corlys passing off Addam & Alyn as Laenor's bastards could only do good, if only little, to alleviate the (true) rumours of her "Strong bastards". Not sure what you're getting at with Rhaegar & Lyanna ...

So why would Corlys cheat on fiery Rhaenys when he was +60 (of course not a barrier, but it generally makes it less likely than a younger man) & loved her besides? I don't think any passion/feelings for Marilda played into, or at least far from the primary reason: to have backup main-line Velaryons as LOYAL supporters to Laenor's "sons", or outright heirs instead if necessary. I don't want to take away from the likes of Davos & Dunk, but Addam & Alyn imo ... are just too perfect, too quickly to have only been essentially smallfolk grandchildren of a shipwright in the streets of Hull. I think Corlys saw that they had the necessary education & upbringing (perhaps Aegon VI-ish) that would actually explain their extraordinary abilities essentially off the bat with courtly life. High Tide had been raised years before & certainly Corlys & Rhaenys at least resided there - it's not out of the realm of possibility that Addam & Alyn were even fostered in Driftmark castle itself (which seems to be where Hull is, whereas High Tide is with Spicetown), or with any of the Velaryons' numerous Blackwater Bay allies. Or that extremely rich & influential couldn't have just had the boys trained in their own home.

Addam was born the same year as Jace (114AC) & it was extremely clear to all but Viserys (who was in denial, anyway), who Jace's real father was. Hell, it was clear at the wedding tourney who it would be, & it would've been even beforehand with the betrothal to the likes of Corlys ... I don't condone the cheating for any reason, but I think Corlys did what he felt he had to at least have the necessary backup to ensure the survival of his line of House Velaryon (Addam & Alyn were born before Baela & Rhaena too). Perhaps he foresaw that the likes of Vaemond could be a problem, after all, his nephew made his move when he himself was bedridden.

2 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

Huge risk for her, no risk for him. He didn't had heirs by Laenor. So his line would had ended and after all Addam and Alyn were his sons. Actions are better than words. Like when Corlys endanger himself to fight with Rhaenyra after Rhaenys' death. That was a risk, having sex with another wasn't.

It is known. Though they were only born after Addam & Alyn, but Baela & Rhaena were also heirs of his line too. Of course, even for such a female claim championing (for Rhaenys & through her anyway) family, House Velaryon sure had a tricky succession for the last decade or two of Corlys' life. And as all but a Great House in name at the time, even more influenced by the patriarchal model & ideals - hence part-wise the Jace-Baela & Luke-Rhaena betrothals, & to a greater degree Corlys marrying Baela to Alyn to bind their claims.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

2 hours ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Your doubt has been noted, weighed, and found wanting. Daemon had plenty of power but marrying Rhaenyra all but guaranteed he wasn't ever going to be a king regnant. He knew what was getting into.

Daemon was pretty quick to claim Protector of the Realm for Rhaenyra. And so late in the game (120AC), of course he knew he was never going to be king regnant. As a king-consort he could have his own crown (the Conqueror's I'm guessing he would've had his eyes on) & a shit-ton of power, particularly as the by far likeliest candidate for his wife's hand after Corlys would eventually pass. Becoming king regnant would require the extinction of not only Viserys & Alicent's line, but also Rhaenyra & Laenor's, Rhaenyra herself, & perhaps also Rhaenys & Corlys). Daemon was an absolute monster, but he wasn't dumb, quite the opposite generally. I could see him perhaps accelerating the deaths of Laenor's "sons" for Aegon & Viserys instead (with Baela & Rhaena most likely as their wives respectively), but probably not even Rhaenyra who he likely didn't even truly love. And he'd have a death wish if he went after Rhaenys certainly.

17 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

Corlys Velaryon didn't seem to have had a long affair with that Marilda woman. And he was grief-stricken and pretty pissed when Rhaenys died so I think we can say he had deep feelings for her. Whether he ever romantically loved her is another matter but their match could actually have been a love match, at least in part. There wouldn't have been any succession struggle if Rhaenys had wed Viserys instead of Corlys but most likely the famous and far-traveled Sea Snake was much more impressive than boring Viserys. Corlys was also a very fine match, to be sure, worthy of a future queen, but a Rhaenys-Viserys match would have united the bloodlines. But then, nobody expected Prince Aemon to die in 92 AC.

Good points. I sense there was also a rivalry between Aemon & Baelon though, which could easily have avoided a Rhaenys-Viserys match for one with Corlys instead. After Aemon's death in 92AC, Baelon does a lot to consolidate his position as Prince of Dragonstone & in particular Viserys' claim after him:

• Whether the dragon was previously bonded to Aemon or not, very likely "pushes" Viserys to claim Balerion.
• Weds Viserys in 93AC to the marriageable female with the next best claim after him, his 11yo cousin Aemma Arryn.
• Instead of waiting until she is older, Aemma is pregnant at 14 with Rhaenyra, & was possibly even pregnant before that - seems like Baelon was pushing for consummation, imo, to secure his line further.
• Accepts the Handship in 100AC, of course.

[Lord Varys]

59 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Yeah I don't think Daemon ever truly loved Rhaenyra. He also viewed Laena as a means to get closer to the throne, but I certainly think he was more fond of her (perhaps even loved) than he ever was of his niece. Creepy nuncle Daemon groomed Rhaenyra as a girl & early teen for the political power he could gain through a marriage with her. Even fellow groomer & massive creep Cole did so, because he wanted her for himself imo - hence his toxic masculinity when he couldn't have her. As for Rhaenyra with her nuncle ... mayhaps infatuation(?) than love is more apt there, though I certainly think she was into Daemon more than he was into her.

 

I'm not sure about all that. I agree that Daemon wasn't in love with Rhaenyra the child or even Rhaenyra the girl but Rhaenyra the maiden and most beautiful young woman of the Realm might have been another thing. He certainly would have been into her and Laena both. But there were also the whole power play involved. Yet Daemon really seems to have settled down somewhat in the 120s. First Laena gave him the twins and then Rhaenyra gave him two sons, and he is not keen on war and destruction in 129 AC when the Dance begins.

Nettles is another matter entirely. That is a new affair, possibly Daemon recovering/reliving his youth, or him hanging out with his daughter. I'm very much inclined to believe that Nettles was his bastard, fathered on some woman he met on the Stepstones or one of Corlys' ships during the war on the Stepstones.

59 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Given that the fire at Harrenhal likely only happened in the 5th or 6th month of 120AC, Daemon & Rhaenyra's marriage was revealed to court only after Otto returned to KL from Oldtown (a number of weeks after the fire itself given the time for the new Hand to be named after that, & Otto to get there), & that Aegon was born before the year was out (& seemingly not premature); this is fact, imo. Not very likely, but there's a chance that Daemon impregnated his niece (which of course need not at all be the first time they rekindle their sexual trysts since c.112) even before Laenor's death.

That is not necessarily true. There are those rumors about some orgies involving Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin (or Laenor's lovers) and we got those reports of Rhaenyra and Laena being rather close. Could be that Laena was more interested in women than in men (we got the report that she was much more interested in flying than in boys at the age of twelve) and that she and Rhaenyra had an affair while Rhaenyra was married to Laenor and Daemon to Laena. I'm sure they would then also have had an occasional threesome with Daemon.

The Laena-Rhaenyra closeness is sort of odd in light of the fact that she as Laenor's sister should actually have not liked the whole Harwin arrangement if that wasn't a pretty open deal between Rhaenyra and Laenor (which it most likely was).

59 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Good point on Rhaenyra perhaps being the instigator of the relationship with Daemon, & ironic considering the lengths of his previous attempt to seduce & marry her. I find this the more likely of the two as well - Rhaenyra obviously wouldn't need comforting over Laenor (though I do think they worked out ok together considering, seemingly with the agreement each would have their paramour & Laenor would acknowledge her sons as his for their mutual benefit), & as you say, she very well could have moved on from Harwin by/around this time.

Harwin is never described as a man Rhaenyra loved. He was her type, being very well-built and strong, but nothing suggests she was into him as much as into either Cole or Daemon.

59 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Agreed also on Larys being behind Harrenhal, likely in collusion with Alicent/the Greens (nice point on Alicent's further motivations post-Laenor's funeral). The link sums up well why Corlys, nor Daemon (on top of what I've already said), nor Viserys (I wonder why Mellos named the king though, particularly as he died before him - if Runciter was still the Grand Maester at the time then I'd not be surprised at all, given his manipulation of the Viserys-Alicent match ...) was the conspirator.

I expect the missing sections of TRP to contain more information on all the Strong intrigues at court, especially the roles Lyonel's daughters played as Rhaenyra's companions. We know that Lyonel had had three wives, so Harwin, the daughters, and Larys could all have had different mothers, making the family dynamics possibly rather toxic. If Larys killed both Harwin and Lyonel he most likely did so not only because of ambition but also because he hated/loathed either both or one of them. He had a clubfoot and was thus most likely more often than not the butt of his brother's jokes.

59 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

I can certainly see the Hightowers (Alicent is more capable than her father here imo, actually in just about everything) being behind Laenor's death for this reasoning, though I still think it Daemon was more likely. He has better means (actually knowing not only Laenor, but also Qarl), motive (Rhaenyra widowed for himself), & opportunity (he was living on Driftmark at the time). I don't think Corlys & Rhaenys are a factor because it was Mushroom who theorised it was Daemon, & his Testimony was only published after the Dance, if not also the Regency. Even if Mushroom was literate & kept notes like Varys did, nothing suggests (IIRC) that any of the courts he was around knew he had such, or indeed that he was even voicing anything that would later feature in his book. Both Rhaenys & Corlys were pretty deep into their grief at this time, & although if they suspected/knew Daemon was behind Laenor's death he himself would be dead, they were pragmatic - allying against the Triarchy only 5 years after the shit Daemon pulled at the GC, & of course continuing the charade of Rhaenyra & Laenor's sons being trueborn because Baela & Rhaena were betrothed to the two eldest.

 

The idea I put out is that Alicent originally intended to destroy Rhaenyra by collecting rock-solid evidence on her committing adultery. If she had that she could accuse her through some middle man and the king would be forced to investigate the whole thing. Laenor could only ignore this up to a point as him being seen as a cuckold would also destroy his reputation in the eyes of the public.

Alicent would have hoped if she could throw enough dirt at Rhaenyra she could finally convince/force Viserys I to change the succession in favor of Aegon.

To do that she would need a spy in Rhaenyra's/Laenor's household, and Qarl Correy just might have been that guy. The murder itself could also have been some sort of mad manslaughter with Laenor finding out that Qarl was a spy. In combination with his gambling debts this certainly could be an explanation. Then Alicent/Larys took care of him thereafter to ensure nobody found out that they were involved.

All such plans disappeared after Aemond lost his eye and the 'Strong boys' thing was publicly spilled by Aemond. That made Rhaenyra demand an inquiry as to who told Aemond such rumors and caused Viserys I to decree that everybody repeating that story would lose his tongue, whoever he or she might be. That buried any possibility of trying to bring Rhaenyra down by accusing her of adultery. Not to mention that Laenor was now dead.

But it could also have been Rhaenyra/Daemon if they had already began their affair at that point and intended to marry. Laenor would then have just been an obstacle that had to go. While he lived Rhaenyra couldn't take another husband. Harwin didn't have to die but Laenor needed to go.

The Corlys-Marilda affair seems to have been a short passion. Corlys apparently spend a lot of time away from High Tide and Rhaenys at this point, and Marilda then became his companion for a time. But that doesn't means she was his great love or anything.

It seems to me that Marilda's boys were neither acknowledged as noble bastards nor as Velaryon bastard until Marilda brought them to Dragonstone to try claim a dragon. They don't bear the name Waters. They would just have been the bastards of some common woman with the father being unknown. That's why they are called Addam and Alyn of Hull. And then they were immediately legitimized as Velaryons by Rhaenyra's decree.

1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

Good points. I sense there was also a rivalry between Aemon & Baelon though, which could easily have avoided a Rhaenys-Viserys match for one with Corlys instead.

We don't know anything about that, though. It is odd that Alyssa would have been married to Baelon rather than Aemon, that's clear. But whether that resulted in bad blood or a rivalry between the siblings is unclear. If this had been the case then the Old King would most likely have insisted that Rhaenys marry Viserys to end that rivalry. Thus I'd say it might have been more likely that a headstrong Rhaenys rejected Viserys as a possible future husband and chose Corlys instead. I'm pretty sure they must have been married before Aemon died, or else Jaehaerys I would have enforced the Viserys-Rhaenys match to unite the bloodlines and prevent a succession struggle.

1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

After Aemon's death in 92AC, Baelon does a lot to consolidate his position as Prince of Dragonstone & in particular Viserys' claim after him:

• Whether the dragon was previously bonded to Aemon or not, very likely "pushes" Viserys to claim Balerion.

I don't think that. I doubt Viserys was a dragonrider for only two years. Thus I also don't think that Aemon was the rider of Balerion.

1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

• Weds Viserys in 93AC to the marriageable female with the next best claim after him, his 11yo cousin Aemma Arryn.

Yeah, that most likely was a political match to counter Rhaenys' marriage to Corlys and the support she had from her Baratheon relations.

1 hour ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

• Instead of waiting until she is older, Aemma is pregnant at 14 with Rhaenyra, & was possibly even pregnant before that - seems like Baelon was pushing for consummation, imo, to secure his line further.

Aemma had miscarriages and one dead son prior to the birth of Rhaenyra, yes.

[Bael's Bastard]

On 1/20/2017 at 10:05 PM, dsug said:

Her father didn't even know about it until after the fact. Why did she go with? I never got the impression that they were actually in love, especially since Daemon had just allegedly killed Harwin. Was it just out of necessity?

I don't know whether either or both Rhaenyra and Daemon were in love with the other or not, but I do think there was something of note between them which went back to when she was the young heir. And it was a beneficial match for both of them at that time it happened.

Rhaenyra was Viserys I's chosen heir. Westeros had sworn to serve her as their next ruler. Daemon was the next male-line Targaryen after Viserys I and his sons with Alicent, who would certainly be disqualified from the succession by Rhaenyra if they contested her accession.

Rhaenyra's two eldest sons with Laenor Velaryon (legally if not biologically) and Daemon's two daughters with Laena Velaryon were already betrothed to each other, and their futures bound together, before Laena died. 

All four grandchildren of Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys were betrothed to each other, and the Rhaenyra and Daemon marriage ensured that all four of the Velaryon grandchildren would be on the same side whether or nor Alicent's sons attempted to usurp.

Off the top of my head I can't think of a better match for either at the time they married. Their children with Velaryons were going to sit the Iron Throne. Any children they were going to have with each other were only going to push Aegon II and his children further away from the Iron Throne.

 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

He did it to screw over his brother, and bc Rhaenyra was a bad ass and he ended off with nettles mere mortals can't comprehend what that man was thinking 

[Curled Finger]

In fairness, Daemon got a really bad rap.   Yes he did cruel and impetuous things, but he was not the cause of the war of the blacks and greens.    That was Alycent and her father.   Aegon didn't want to usurp his sister's position and had to be convinced to take the crown.   Seems to me young Aegon was taught well that it was his sister who would be Queen, not he.   Is it just me or did the whole scene and story of Alycent explaining the need for him to take rule seemed surprising to Aegon?   This hadn't occurred to him previously and I think it's logical that his father, the king, imparted his wishes and commands to his children.   Would Alycent have backed down and gone along with Rhaenyra's rule under any circumstances?   I think not.   She had her own very clear design for the future of the rule of the realm and it most definitely did not include any obedience or even recognition of Rhaenyra.   The Rogue Prince was worse than the Green Queen?   I don't think so.   

Like many above I think Daemon and Rhaenyra were both politically astute and determined to have the throne.   I haven't read much mention of those loyal to Daemon himself.   They may not have been numerous, but they were certainly there.   Those loyal to him were willing to assault the royal family within their own palace.   That takes nerves of steel and a great deal of loyalty.    Blood and Cheese carried their orders out flawlessly.   Daemon absolutely left impressions upon people.    Would he have ruled in the manner of Maegor? I don't think so.  I think it would have been more in keeping with Daemon's personality to set Rhaenyra up, take this crown and go off adventuring again.   He was bored in the Vale and successful when allowed to do as he pleased.   Daemon and Rhaenyra didn't strike me so much as in love as well suited and deserving of each other.   Their passion and dedication for taking the throne with a single vision and brilliant execution should be credited to their united vision.  That said, we don't know if Daemon survived or not.   However, I think Rhaenyra would have been a formidable queen if Daemon had stayed with her to the bitter end.