A strong king acts boldly

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@Blue-Eyed Wolf

Great assessment of the training at Winterfell. Interesting dynamics between Robb, Rodrik, Sandor, and Joff. 

Robb and Joff are both brought up with every advantage a boy could ask for in terms of training with swords. Yet when presented with a rare opportunity to spar against someone who should have similar background/skillset we see two completely different views on the situation. 

Robb is ever eager to go against the crown prince and prove what he's worth. Meanwhile Joff is attempting to evade the practice altogether. He tries to manipulate the situation to make Robb look like a child in the process.

I love that Rodrik is a knight (less knights in the north) training these boys in front of the Hound (not a knight from an area surrounded by knights). Two fighters with drastically different views on what swordsmanship should be. Of course the Hound despises everything about knighthood, while Ser Rodrik is ever chivalrous. 

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"I am training knights," Ser Rodrik said pointedly. "They will have steel when they are ready. When they are of an age." 

While the Hound suggests giving them steel. Is the Hound helping Joffrey out? Interesting ideas.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

35 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

  Ain't that the dirty truth no one wanted to hear me speak, the last time I dared.  

And here we are jumping through hoops constructing elaborate psychodynamic analyses, trying to make it easier for him!

Haha!  Ok to be clear, I meant that to a very tiny degree.  98% of it feels lined up well, but there is a slight element of "luck" (ahem, creative license) that helps get the story moving.  That's fine, we need to get the ball rolling.  There are just a few minor things in GoT that I can see he improved upon in the later books.  And why not?  He can evolve as a writer since the 1990s.  I'm not complaining because there's nothing that hurts the story and it's incredibly well constructed considering all the moving parts. 

My only real quibble is he can write amazing individual female characters, but he seems to have sometimes have a little trouble nailing female friendships and sisterhood in the same way he nails male friendships or brotherhood.  It can come off looking slightly stereotypical.  Okay, that's all I'm gonna say, I don't want to derail anything.         

[ravenous reader]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

what might have been Joffrey's intention beyond getting Bran killed.

Frankly, I don't think GRRM gave it much thought.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

44 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

So, finally everyone can have a breather and Tommen becomes king, but Cersei must ruin it all.  He'll go down into Westeros history books as the "King who loves to stamp".

I completely understand the stamping.  Stamping melted wax would give me a very satisfying feeling.    Seriously, what a good kid.  And brave!  He has no fear of trying, even falling down, and still wants to try again.  How did Tommen and Myrcella turn out so good?  That's a real mystery.  

@OtherFromAnotherMother  Thanks!  I think we should keep in mind though Sandor says he hates knights, he really has a complicated relationship with knighthood.  He doesn't respect the title, he respects actions.  His standards are actually so high, he doesn't think anyone in the awful world can live up to it, including himself.  He sounds like he's mocking Rodrick and Robb, but likely more testing him out.  We can infer from other instances where he respected Tommen's courage to try again that we can look back on this and say, he probably actually respected at least Robb for his courage to try.  There's also Sandorspeak that he can say things, but he really means the opposite or has double meaning.  It's a good trick for getting your digs in and saying what you think without actually saying it.  Whenever you see his mouth is twitching, that's a pretty good "tell" that he's thinking something other than what he's literally saying.  The training yard scene is from Arya's POV watching from above, but I bet anything his mouth was twitching at some point.  I do think he was trying to help Joffrey by encouraging the live steel -- help him get his ass kicked!    Well played, Hound.     

[Darkstream]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

So, we're doing exactly what he wants us to do - discuss the circumstances that led to Joffrey planning the assassination of Bran.

 

57 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Or maybe -- let's get 'meta-' -- maybe you're doing exactly what I wanted you to do..!!  

I deliberately told you not to go there -- emphatically put a lid on it by saying 'that's not my purpose here' -- 'don't open that can of worms' -- and what did you all do...

You take a GRRM man
And put him in control
Watch him become a god
Watch the Ned's head a-roll
A-roll

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to a song... 
A song of Ice and Fire.

The earth starts to rumble
A frozen wall will fall
A-warring for the North
A Stark man stands tall
Stands tall...

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to a song... 
A song of Ice and Fire.

 

[sweetsunray]

10 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

Frankly, I don't think GRRM gave it much thought.

aGoT, Tyrion I suggests otherwise.

The chapter starts in the library that is torched afterwards by the catspaw

 

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Tyrion Lannister looked up from his books and shivered, though the library was snug and warm.[...]When the direwolf howled again, Tyrion shut the heavy leather-bound cover on the book he was reading, a hundred-year-old discourse on the changing of the seasons by a long-dead maester. [...] His reading lamp was flickering, its oil all but gone, as dawn light leaked through the high windows. He had been at it all night, but that was nothing new. Tyrion Lannister was not much a one for sleeping.

[...]

"Chayle," he said softly. The young man jerked up, blinking, confused, the crystal of his order swinging wildly on its silver chain. "I'm off to break my fast. See that you return the books to the shelves. Be gentle with the Valyrian scrolls, the parchment is very dry. Ayrmidon's Engines of War is quite rare, and yours is the only complete copy I've ever seen." Chayle gaped at him, still half-asleep. Patiently, Tyrion repeated his instructions, then clapped the septon on the shoulder and left him to his tasks.

 

 

That tower burns less than a month later. And what does Joffrey do with his new VS sword after mentioning that he's not unfamiliar with VS? He hacks a rare copy about kings in half, Tyrion's gift for him.

 

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Tyrion glanced down and saw the Hound standing with young Joffrey as squires swarmed around them. "At least he dies quietly," the prince replied. "It's the wolf that makes the noise. I could scarce sleep last night."

Clegane cast a long shadow across the hard-packed earth as his squire lowered the black helm over his head. "I could silence the creature, if it please you," he said through his open visor. His boy placed a longsword in his hand. He tested the weight of it, slicing at the cold morning air. Behind him, the yard rang to the clangor of steel on steel.

The notion seemed to delight the prince. "Send a dog to kill a dog!" he exclaimed. "Winterfell is so infested with wolves, the Starks would never miss one."

Knowing that Starks are often nicknamed as wolves this sounds like a foreshadowing threat.

Then next

 

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Joffrey looked as petulant as only a boy prince can look. "What good will my comfort do them?"

"None," Tyrion said. "Yet it is expected of you. Your absence has been noted."

"The Stark boy is nothing to me," Joffrey said. "I cannot abide the wailing of women."

Tyrion Lannister reached up and slapped his nephew hard across the face. The boy's cheek began to redden.

"One word," Tyrion said, "and I will hit you again."

"I'm going to tell Mother!" Joffrey exclaimed.

Tyrion hit him again. Now both cheeks flamed.

"You tell your mother," Tyrion told him. "But first you get yourself to Lord and Lady Stark, and you fall to your knees in front of them, and you tell them how very sorry you are, and that you are at their service if there is the slightest thing you can do for them or theirs in this desperate hour, and that all your prayers go with them. Do you understand? Do you?"

The boy looked as though he was going to cry. Instead, he managed a weak nod. Then he turned and fled headlong from the yard, holding his cheek. Tyrion watched him run.

[...]

"The prince will remember that, little lord," the Hound warned him. [...]

"I pray he does," Tyrion Lannister replied.

 

 

Tyrion later thinks his mouth tends to get him in trouble. We see the trouble brewing here: we know how Joffrey likes to humiliate those who either humiliated him or witness it. In this case Tyrion's slaps and ordering him to cower for the Starks and do them a "kindness" we have a scene that motivates Joffrey to hate Tyrion and repay him as well as punish the boy who's the indirect cause of the humiliation: Bran. Killing him is a "mercy" a "kindness". And yes, there's no doubt at all that Joffrey told his mother.

 

And does it sound as if Robert made some remark about Joffrey not having made his appearance yet?

 

Off to breakfast:

 

First we learn that Robert has taken the Starks' sorrow deeply to heart. Big contradiction to Cersei's later claims to Jaime.

 

 

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"Is Robert still abed?" Tyrion asked as he seated himself, uninvited, at the table.

His sister peered at him with the same expression of faint distaste she had worn since the day he was born. "The king has not slept at all," she told him. "He is with Lord Eddard. He has taken their sorrow deeply to heart."

"He has a large heart, our Robert," Jaime said with a lazy smile.

 

 

Then update about Bran:

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yrion gave her a crooked smile. "Why, only that Tommen may get his wish. The maester thinks the boy may yet live." He took a sip of beer.

Myrcella gave a happy gasp, and Tommen smiled nervously, but it was not the children Tyrion was watching. The glance that passed between Jaime and Cersei lasted no more than a second, but he did not miss it. Then his sister dropped her gaze to the table. "That is no mercy. These northern gods are cruel to let the child linger in such pain."

"What were the maester's words?" Jaime asked.

The bacon crunched when he bit into it. Tyrion chewed thoughtfully for a moment and said, "He thinks that if the boy were going to die, he would have done so already. It has been four days with no change."

"Will Bran get better, Uncle?" little Myrcella asked. She had all of her mother's beauty, and none of her nature.

"His back is broken, little one," Tyrion told her. "The fall shattered his legs as well. They keep him alive with honey and water, or he would starve to death. Perhaps, if he wakes, he will be able to eat real food, but he will never walk again."

"If he wakes," Cersei repeated. "Is that likely?"

 

 

Cersei not allowing those wolves to go south and Tyrion foreshadowing how the wolf will keep Bran alive

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"The gods alone know," Tyrion told her. "The maester only hopes." He chewed some more bread. "I would swear that wolf of his is keeping the boy alive. The creature is outside his window day and night, howling. Every time they chase it away, it returns. The maester said they closed the window once, to shut out the noise, and Bran seemed to weaken. When they opened it again, his heart beat stronger."

The queen shuddered. "There is something unnatural about those animals," she said. "They are dangerous. I will not have any of them coming south with us."

 

 

And then Tyrion drops he plans to go to the Wall:

 

Quote

 

Tyrion started on his fish. "Are you leaving soon, then?"

"Not near soon enough," Cersei said. Then she frowned. "Are we leaving?" she echoed. "What about you? Gods, don't tell me you are staying here?"

Tyrion shrugged. "Benjen Stark is returning to the Night's Watch with his brother's bastard. I have a mind to go with them and see this Wall we have all heard so much of."

Jaime smiled. "I hope you're not thinking of taking the black on us, sweet brother."

Tyrion laughed. "What, me, celibate? The whores would go begging from Dorne to Casterly Rock. No, I just want to stand on top of the Wall and piss off the edge of the world."

Cersei stood abruptly. "The children don't need to hear this filth. Tommen, Myrcella, come." She strode briskly from the morning room, her train and her pups trailing behind her.

 

 

At the very least, George made the most out of this chapter afterwards.

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

14 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Thanks!  I think we should keep in mind though Sandor says he hates knights, he really has a complicated relationship with knighthood.  He doesn't respect the title, he respects actions.  His standards are actually so high, he doesn't think anyone in the awful world can live up to it, including himself.

Yes. I should have said he projects hating knighthood rather than just knighthood. 

16 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

We can infer from other instances where he respected Tommen's courage to try again

As much as I have loved your assessments I actually have a different interpretation of the scene you are speaking of. I think Sandor was actually protecting Sansa with his comments about Tommen. 

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“Oh,” Princess Myrcella cried. She scrambled out of the box and ran to her little brother.

Sansa found herself possessed of a queer giddy courage. “You should go with her,” she told the king. “Your brother might be hurt.”

Joffrey shrugged. “What if he is?”

“You should help him up and tell him how well he rode.” Sansa could not seem to stop herself.

“He got knocked off his horse and fell in the dirt,” the king pointed out. “That’s not riding well.”

“Look,” the Hound interrupted. “The boy has courage. He’s going to try again.”

George mentions twice that Sansa was speaking to Joff abnormally. She is trying to get Joff to do something he would never do. Joff is probably growing impatient/angry with her. Was he going to do something cruel to her?

George uses "interrupted" for when Sandor speaks. He could have used said, announced, spoke, etc... Why interrupted? What was the Hound interrupting? 

Of course we know Sandor shows a certain protection and kindness to Sansa often in the books. I view this scene as another of these moments.

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

3 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

George mentions twice that Sansa was speaking to Joff abnormally. She is trying to get Joff to do something he would never do. Joff is probably growing impatient/angry with her. Was he going to do something cruel to her?

George uses "interrupted" for when Sandor speaks. He could have used said, announced, spoke, etc... Why interrupted? What was the Hound interrupting?

You make a very valid point.  He certainly did that very thing to support her name day lie and Joffrey was definitely showing signs of impatience and irritation.  I think Sansa is very hyper-vigilant about Joffrey's moods because he gets abusive when he's bored.  The lie for Dontos was a gut reaction to save his life, but as an abusive victim she is very typical of monitoring him for signs abuse is coming.  In this particular instance of discussing Tommen, Joffrey doesn't seem to show those signs in the moment (he just seems indifferent) which may be why Sansa is feeling bold enough to openly support Tommen and try to influence something positive happening.  But you are right, the Hound did interrupt when he saw Joffrey disagreeing more with Sansa, even though it doesn't look like his tone changed... yet (maybe).  He would have more experience of knowing even subtler clues to what sets Joffrey off.  I don't think he was saying something that wasn't genuine though.  He could have just made a snarky remark about Tommen to make Joffrey laugh and distract him (if it were just about diverting Joffrey's mood).  When he laughed at Myrcella's comment and supported her against Joffrey, that comes off as a genuine reaction and unprompted by Sansa.  I do think his fondness for the younger kids is real.  There's clues in the scene that he's also trying to impress Sansa (first time wearing the kingsguard cloak with a fancy, jeweled brooch) and maybe there's a little of openly agreeing with her support of Tommen to make himself come off as not such a bad guy.  And maybe he's interrupting a little cause he wants Sansa's attention and Joffrey has ####-blocked him before when he tried to interact with her.  There's subtle "look at me, notice me!" hints in that scene.    

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

2 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

I don't think he was saying something that wasn't genuine though.  He could have just made a snarky remark about Tommen to make Joffrey laugh and distract him (if it were just about diverting Joffrey's mood).

True. Sandor could have said or done a number of different things to "save" Sansa but he chose to praise Tommen's courage. 

5 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 I do think his fondness for the younger kids is real.

I agree. And thankfully for the younger kids and Sansa that Sandor has a subtle influence over Joffrey. 

 

8 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

There's clues in the scene that he's also trying to impress Sansa (first time wearing the kingsguard cloak with a fancy, jeweled brooch)

I hadn't noticed that. Nice catch!

 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

55 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Cersei stood abruptly. "The children don't need to hear this filth. Tommen, Myrcella, come." She strode briskly from the morning room, her train and her pups trailing behind her.

With the way you've laid it all out, it makes it much more clear where Joffrey actually got his ideas and how he would connect Tyrion to it.  Also on another note, so Cersei never intended for any wolves to come south.  The incident with the fight on the road then was just a perfect excuse to get rid of the direwolves?  She got Lady (but not the pelt), but Nymeria was ran off, leaving no wolves making it to KL.  

The quote was interesting the way Tyrion refers to Tommen and Myrcella as "pups"... shouldn't that be "cubs?"  Is that significant?  

[sweetsunray]

8 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

The quote was interesting the way Tyrion refers to Tommen and Myrcella as "pups"... shouldn't that be "cubs?"  Is that significant?

I noticed the same thing. It's like Tyrion is thinking in dog or wolf terms. Could be a slip-up, or it circles back ominously to "killing a dog". That is - the first foreshadowing that Tommen and Myrcella will die.

[sweetsunray]

As for Sandor's words during the Name Day tourney, I agree with the both of you. He shows both praise and a liking for Tommen and Myrcella as well as keep Sansa safe as well as get her to notice him and think more kindly of him.

[ravenous reader]

20 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Back to Joffrey's role in it: it's odd how Sandor warns Tyrion that Joffrey is not like to forget it. You could link it to Joffrey's behavior towards Tyrion once Joffrey is king and Tyrion is not the Hand anymore, but since the other half of the chapter dwells on Bran surviving and possibly waking up and Cersei's remark on how cruel the Northern Gods are, etc... I think it has more to do with Joffrey trying to get Tyrion into trouble with the catspaw (independently from LF).

In that same chapter Tyrion tells Jaime and Cersei that he intends to visit the Wall, but not to take the black. Then Cersei leaves frustrated. Anyhow, Joffrey too at some point knows that Tyrion will remain in the North. Joffrey knows that at some point Tyrion would have to go south and would have to pass through WF again. Did he hope that Tyrion would end up being suspected?

While I find this train of thought intriguing, it doesn't make sense in the context of the selection of the Valyrian steel dagger --oh god, now I'm talking about the (un)familiarity with Valyrian steel, after I swore I wouldn't go there...!  

But, in all seriousness, we do have to go there, because GRRM's whole 'Bran assassination plot' hinges on that one feature he's taken pains to wave in front of our faces, here:

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A Storm of Swords - Sansa IV

"Now there are three." Joffrey undid his old swordbelt to don his new one. "You and Lady Sansa owe me a better present, Uncle Imp. This one is all chopped to pieces."

Tyrion was staring at his nephew with his mismatched eyes. "Perhaps a knife, sire. To match your sword. A dagger of the same fine Valyrian steel . . . with a dragonbone hilt, say?"

Joff gave him a sharp look. "You . . . yes, a dagger to match my sword, good." He nodded. "A . . . a gold hilt with rubies in it. Dragonbone is too plain."

So the ellipses (...) GRRM has inserted not once, but twice for our benefit tell the story.  As Joffrey stumbles over his words with the pregnant 'dot-dot-dot', it's clear he knows something about the would-be assassin's murder weapon.  In this quote, Joffrey also confirms that he knows that particular dagger is too plain for a king or noble, indicating that one with a gold hilt encrusted with rubies would be far more fitting.  

Based on this, we can infer that had Joffrey wished to implicate someone in the royal family such as Tyrion, he would rather have gone for something more ornate.  Also, it's well known that Tyrion is rather a vain man, evidently fond of finery and prominently displaying his wealth every chance he gets, as a form of social signalling (probably also to compensate for his short stature); so knowing that about his uncle from long acquaintance with him would rather have prompted Joffrey to go for the shiniest, most ostentatious, jewel-encrusted weapon rather than the one chosen.  

It's precisely Valyrian steel's unflashy appearance that is so misleading to a casual, 'unfamiliar' eye.  Unlike regular steel, it does not reflect the light -- on the contrary, it is distinguished by its rather malign ability to absorb light into itself or more poetically put 'drink the sun', as Tyrion later observes with Oathkeeper.  Thus, Valyrian steel appears dark and dull, and with a plain hilt would not have appealed to Joffrey's immature, untrained eye, had his intent been to frame Tyrion.

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Consider the choice of distraction: the library tower. On the one hand it's the best thing to cause a fire quickly and far away from the room where Bran is. But it's also the location where Tyrion used to lock himself up at Winterfell, and Joffrey hates reading. So, was the fire in the library tower just the catspaw's idea, or was it Joffrey's? And if so, did he hope that would implicate Tyrion somehow.

Anyhow, at the very least, Joffrey could expect his uncle to be questioned upon his return south from the Wall, and he might as well just rely on the fact that the Starks would suspect Tyrion because of his looks. There were always tales about the Imp and that he is a monster and people have a tendency to blame and suspect Tyrion of the worst.

That's a great point!  Only a person with a contemptuous disregard for or even hostility towards books and/or those who are passionate readers of them would have instructed the catspaw to burn a library.  The particular library at Winterfell is also well known for housing many rare books, including that 'hundred-year-old discourse about the changing of the seasons by a long-dead maester' which we could all probably do with reading round about now...the book Tyrion either took to the Wall with him, among the others Ned Stark permitted him to borrow, or was unfortunately burnt along with the library, or later when Cersei burnt his possessions in the Tower of the Hand.  

From that perspective of looking for a 'book-'or 'reader-hater' as the culprit, Joffrey would certainly fit the bill, transferring his hatred of Tyrion and his bookwormish habit onto the library, the same way he might have transferred his animosity towards Jaime and Cersei onto the pregnant cat.  

Apart from Joffrey, Cersei would also still be in the running as a suspect for having given the order to burn the library, given that she equally if not more than Joffrey despises and wishes to get rid of Tyrion -- hasn't that been her lifelong ambition, namely to expunge the looming threat of the 'valonqar' whom she presumes to be her youngest brother?  To substantiate this hypothesis, we have the evidence of Cersei's (rather Valyrian) fondness for setting fires -- I'd term it a kind of 'pyromaniacal lust' -- which alarms even her twin.  

In fact, we have the example of her burning another tower full of books -- which might as well be considered a library of sorts -- when she orders that the Tower of the Hand slated to be burned first be filled with Tyrion's remaining possessions (these would be mostly books, since those are his first love, and he wouldn't have been able to take them along on his journey as a fugitive stowaway to Essos).

 In addition, the Tower is a symbol of knowledge and learning, having been occupied by so many Hands over the years, many of whom are likely to have been thoughtful, considered and academically inclined, granting them access to power through their mental acuity -- in the end, Tywin favored winning wars using 'quills and ravens', not swords.   By burning down the tower, Cersei is signalling her envy of a certain type of intelligence shared by both Tywin and Tyrion, but in which she is sorely lacking.

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A Feast for Crows - Cersei III

Dark and forlorn stood the Tower of the Hand, with only gaping holes where oaken doors and shuttered windows had once been. Yet even ruined and slighted, it loomed above the outer ward. As the wedding guests filed out of the Small Hall, they passed beneath its shadow. When Cersei looked up she saw the tower's crenellated battlements gnawing at a hunter's moon, and wondered for a moment how many Hands of how many kings had made their home there over the past three centuries. 

A hundred yards from the tower, she took a breath to stop her head from spinning. "Lord Hallyne! You may commence."

Hallyne the pyromancer said "Hmmmmmm" and waved the torch he was holding, and the archers on the walls bent their bows and sent a dozen flaming arrows through the gaping windows.

The tower went up with a whoosh. In half a heartbeat its interior was alive with light, red, yellow, orange . . . and green, an ominous dark green, the color of bile and jade and pyromancer's piss. "The substance," the alchemists named it, but common folk called it wildfire. Fifty pots had been placed inside the Tower of the Hand, along with logs and casks of pitch and the greater part of the worldly possessions of a dwarf named Tyrion Lannister.

The queen could feel the heat of those green flames. The pyromancers said that only three things burned hotter than their substance: dragonflame, the fires beneath the earth, and the summer sun. Some of the ladies gasped when the first flames appeared in the windows, licking up the outer walls like long green tongues. Others cheered, and made toasts.

It is beautiful, she thought, as beautiful as Joffrey, when they laid him in my arms. No man had ever made her feel as good as she had felt when he took her nipple in his mouth to nurse.

She's having a kind of erotic epiphany -- very like Aerys -- in response to the fire.

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Tommen stared wide-eyed at the fires, as fascinated as he was frightened, until Margaery whispered something in his ear that made him laugh. Some of the knights began to make wagers on how long it would be before the tower collapsed. Lord Hallyne stood humming to himself and rocking on his heels.

Cersei thought of all the King's Hands that she had known through the years: Owen Merryweather, Jon Connington, Qarlton Chelsted, Jon Arryn, Eddard Stark, her brother Tyrion. And her father, Lord Tywin Lannister, her father most of all. All of them are burning now, she told herself, savoring the thought. They are dead and burning, every one, with all their plots and schemes and betrayals. It is my day now. It is my castle and my kingdom.

...

"Yes." Cersei beckoned to Jaime. "Lord Commander, escort His Grace and his little queen to their pillows, if you would."

"As you command. And you as well?"

"No need." Cersei felt too alive for sleep. The wildfire was cleansing her, burning away all her rage and fear, filling her with resolve. "The flames are so pretty. I want to watch them for a while."

 

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A Feast for Crows - Jaime II

"I had a different sort of gift in mind," said Cersei.

A new stepfather, most like. Jaime knew the look in his sister's eyes. He had seen it before, most recently on the night of Tommen's wedding, when she burned the Tower of the Hand. The green light of the wildfire had bathed the face of the watchers, so they looked like nothing so much as rotting corpses, a pack of gleeful ghouls, but some of the corpses were prettier than others. Even in the baleful glow, Cersei had been beautiful to look upon. She'd stood with one hand on her breast, her lips parted, her green eyes shining. She is crying, Jaime had realized, but whether it was from grief or ecstasy he could not have said.

The sight had filled him with disquiet, reminding him of Aerys Targaryen and the way a burning would arouse him. A king has no secrets from his Kingsguard. Relations between Aerys and his queen had been strained during the last years of his reign. They slept apart and did their best to avoid each other during the waking hours. But whenever Aerys gave a man to the flames, Queen Rhaella would have a visitor in the night. The day he burned his mace-and-dagger Hand, Jaime and Jon Darry had stood at guard outside her bedchamber whilst the king took his pleasure. "You're hurting me," they had heard Rhaella cry through the oaken door. "You're hurting me." In some queer way, that had been worse than Lord Chelsted's screaming. "We are sworn to protect her as well," Jaime had finally been driven to say. "We are," Darry allowed, "but not from him."

Similarly, Cersei may have gotten a kick out of the idea of burning the Winterfell library, as an adjunct to the assassination, even though she wouldn't have been there to see it.

On 1/23/2017 at 2:08 PM, sweetsunray said:

I like the way the conversation is going regarding the cat-incidents @Blue-Eyed Wolf and @ravenous reader

Yes, there's something to say about someone who otherwise has his mother wear constant reminders of all things Lannister, to basically torture a cat. With the wine cup he wants to hack off the wolf too. It does seem to denote an added layer of anger towards his mother. He can't prevent her from picking his clothes, but he can kill cats.

In that way we can interpret his wanting the fawn to wear it as a jerkin as him denying the Baratheon symbol to Tommen, and then putting it on as a skin. It could be him trying to identify himself with being a Baratheon, while denying Tommen that identity. We know he was cruel to Tommen in other ways, but not exactly what. Is it possible that Joffrey overheard a discussion or saw something between Cersei and Jaime shortly after Tommen's birth that made him believe that Tommen was a full Lannister? And fearing that he might be too, he projected it all on Tommen while trying to cling on to Baratheon? Joff shows a remarkable disinterest in Jaime's capture and imprisonment.

Great analysis.  Similarly, the Boltons skin wolves and people in order to identify themselves with the Stark wargs/skinchangers who have ruled the north with magic.

On 1/23/2017 at 2:31 PM, sweetsunray said:

Did Joff name that sword? Did Joff have free choice in his clothing? How much of it was Cersei pushing it onto him? He does not name the other two anything Lion either: Hearteater and Widow's Wail. Notice how the last sword was one with lion symbolism, and what does he call it? Widow's Wail! Who's the widow he knows personally? Cersei, his mother.

Cersei tries to push that Lannister wedding cloak onto Tommen too, but Olenna puts a stop to it. The previous time with Joff's wedding though Tywin was still around not to try and provoke him. I'll betcha it was Cersei who had all her arms sowed on every clothing item. And for all we know Lion's Tooth was given to him as a gift already named.

Yeah, and as Joffrey says he can't abide the sound of women wailing --

A Game of Thrones - Tyrion I

"The Stark boy is nothing to me," Joffrey said. "I cannot abide the wailing of women."

So if his mother Cersei is the widow in question implied in Joffrey naming his sword 'Widow's Wail', we can infer he can't abide his mother!  'Widow's Wail' is an equivocal name in any case, considering that it can either refer to wail of the widows who are mourning their husbands killed by the sword, and whereby they are effectively made into widows; or we might interpret the name to signify the intention of the one wielding it to kill a widow and to hear her wail in pain as she dies!  The latter certainly does sound more like Joffrey's style, considering his general malignant misogyny.  And as @Blue-Eyed Wolf has masterfully dissected, Joffrey is transferring his hatred towards his mother onto other women, as he does with Sansa.  The naming of 'Widow's Wail' therefore betrays Joffrey's deep-seated desire to kill his own mother ('cat-on-cat' catfight, I tell ya!)

On 1/23/2017 at 3:00 PM, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Even if Joffrey did embrace some Lannister symbolism would that change possible internalization he made in the cat incident? I could see Joff displaying Lannister pride externally yet internally be so approval/attention seeking to his father that this is a possibility. 

(I still have a feeling that any Lannister pride was heavily influenced by Cersei)

Hi Other!    

I agree with you.  Just a funny pun to add to the mix, when you consider that 'pride' may refer to the collective name for a family of lions, namely a 'pride of lions'...Judging from the cat incident whereby he extinguished the 'pride,' it's probably safe to say he does not truly feel Lannister pride on an emotional level!  

On 1/23/2017 at 3:09 PM, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

 Thank you.  Send me a link if you got one.

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Yes, and you honestly articulated it all way better than me.     

I wouldn't say that!

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This honestly seems to be the worst kept secret at times.  It seems there were always some rumors.  Servants do notice things and they do talk, but likely fear of Tywin Lannister reprisal kept it whispers to a minimum.  We can see at the bread riots though, this is no secret anymore.  So if commoners are aware of the truth, even Joffrey could have been for some time:

 It's very possible Joffrey deep down knew the truth he was an abomination, so to distance himself from his makers he made efforts to align himself further with his "father."  The question also is how much did Robert know or how much did he even want to know?  He's used to being the one doing the stepping out, but to be cuckholded... by his wife's brother... one of his kingsguard... right under his nose... with their offspring his heirs. To even punish Cersei or Jaime would be to publically admit this was true!   If Robert struck Joffrey as hard has he is said to have, it could have been a reaction to being faced with a beyond humiliating truth, not to just being disgusted by the kittens.  Remember, Ned does fear Robert killing the children if the secret is brought to light.  That's not a big stretch to say he could also strike Joffrey that hard.  If Joffrey could have plausibly put two-and-two together and this doesn't appear to be a well-kept secret anyway, could Joffrey also have said anything incriminating while showing him the kittens?  It could be shocking enough to provoke a violent reaction out of Robert.  We learned from the throne room scene with Ned pleading for Lady's life in the name of the love Robert had for him and Lyanna, that Robert does prefer ease over having to deal with difficult subjects.  As king he could have stopped Lady from being killed, but he turned his back on the whole thing just to avoid being haranged by Cersei.  Acknowledging the whole truth would shatter Robert's ego and force him to act on something he probably would rather pretend didn't exist.  This could also account for why Robert kept such a distance from even his good kids, Tommen and Myrcella.

Very probing insights into Robert Baratheon's psyche.  Even Ned finally comes to the realization that his friend is morally corrupt in turning a blind eye to atrocities for which he rightfully as king ought to have made several people accountable.  I'm thinking here of how he averted his eyes from the murder of the Targaryen children by Lannisters and their lackeys, in order essentially to usurp the throne and retain his own power with Tywin Lannister's financial backing.  That's why he doesn't call Cersei on anything, besides his impatience with her haranguing -- he knows he sold his soul to the devil a long time ago.  Given that the bodies were cloaked in Lannister red, one could almost read that symbolically as dead Lannister children for whom Robert must now pay an equal blood price in return.  He used the lions to do his dirty work and henceforth he has forfeited the authority to call them out on getting 'dirty' in any way.  Thus, in 'recompense' for turning a blind eye to the murder of the Targaryen children, Robert's 'karmic legacy' lies in not having any legitimate children of his own, while allowing the pride of lions to breed under his nose and at his expense -- to which he is now obligated very ironically to turn a blind eye.  'An eye for an eye' -- that is the 'karmic punishment' or 'poetic justice' GRRM metes out for Robert's treachery.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

I noticed the same thing. It's like Tyrion is thinking in dog or wolf terms. Could be a slip-up, or it circles back ominously to "killing a dog". That is - the first foreshadowing that Tommen and Myrcella will die.

And at the breakfast table, Tyrion grins up at Jaime 'wolfishly' when Jaime accuses him of being a 'perverse imp' and that it's difficult to pinpoint on whose side he really is, questioning his Lannister loyalty.

4 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Haha! There he/she is. 

No worries.  Many people think I'm a man... @LmL even called me 'bastard' on first opening a discourse with me!  

3 hours ago, Darkstream said:

You take a GRRM man
And put him in control
Watch him become a god
Watch the Ned's head a-roll
A-roll

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to a song... 
A song of Ice and Fire.

The earth starts to rumble
A frozen wall will fall
A-warring for the North
A Stark man stands tall
Stands tall...

Just like the Pied Piper
Led rats through the streets
We dance like marionettes
Swaying to a song... 
A song of Ice and Fire.

 

LOL.  If you're into poetry, please post something on my poetry thread!

And I agree -- we are certainly GRRM's 'prentices, and he the thing that came in the night!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

So the ellipses (...) GRRM has inserted not once, but twice for our benefit tell the story.  As Joffrey stumbles over his words with the pregnant 'dot-dot-dot', it's clear he knows something about the would-be assassin's murder weapon.

Oh no! Not more ellipse discussion! Haha!

 

21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

In this quote, Joffrey also confirms that he knows that particular dagger is too plain for a king or noble, indicating that one with a gold hilt encrusted with rubies would be far more fitting.  

Isn't Joff just quickly shifting Tyrion's dagger description to one that is dissimilar from the one used to kill Bran? I could be wrong here though. I always thought Joff was basically changing the subject in a way. After all, at first he says "yes" to Tyrion's description (or maybe just to the notion of a dagger in general and I'm way off).

21 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

No worries.  Many people think I'm a man... @LmL even called me 'bastard' on first opening a discourse with me!

Haha. I'm on my phone so I can't see the little "gender" thing next to the names. To be safe i went with he /she. Sorry. Good to know. 

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

While I find this train of thought intriguing, it doesn't make sense in the context of the selection of the Valyrian steel dagger --oh god, now I'm talking about the (un)familiarity with Valyrian steel, after I swore I wouldn't go there...!  

Well, I didn't claim Joffrey was all that succesful in implicating Tyrion all by his lonesome self. As I already mentioned: you can have a plan, but it still might be a shoddy plan or a vague plan. My point was that there are indicators that do suggest that Joffrey would try something against Bran and against Tyrion. My point was not "he successfully framed Tyrion". My point wasn't even that Joffrey tried to frame Tyrion with the dagger. Imo he wanted the catspaw to succeed, and there's no way Joffrey could expect the catspaw to leave the dagger behind. So, the dagger was not Joffrey's tool to frame Tyrion, the fire in the library tower was. Alternatively he wanted to destroy what he knew would pain Tyrion, enve if it was not his library, but the Starks's.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

In this quote, Joffrey also confirms that he knows that particular dagger is too plain for a king or noble, indicating that one with a gold hilt encrusted with rubies would be far more fitting.  

Based on this, we can infer that had Joffrey wished to implicate someone in the royal family such as Tyrion, he would rather have gone for something more ornate.  Also, it's well known that Tyrion is rather a vain man, evidently fond of finery and prominently displaying his wealth every chance he gets, as a form of social signalling (probably also to compensate for his short stature); so knowing that about his uncle from long acquaintance with him would rather have prompted Joffrey to go for the shiniest, most ostentatious, jewel-encrusted weapon rather than the one chosen.

Actually I disagree with that interpretation. Joffrey is firstly trying to divert the attention away from the described VS dagger in his reply. I certainly disagree that a VS steel dagger with an ivory handle is not something a "nobleman" would carry. We have Catelyn's conclusions on the dagger to show it's not something you would find in the hands of a commoner. Logically, since ivory comes from elephants, which are exotic animals from Essos. Also what a king might find beneath himself, might not be beneath a nobleman. Finally, while Tyrion is not a shoddy dresser, and vain about clothing that makes him look taller, he is not the garish type either as far as I can see.  Also consider that a dagger is something that people could see a dwarf carry - makes more sense than a longsword no? Why would someone expect Tyrion to have a vain ornamental garish dagger when Tyrion doesn't walk around with a dagger visibly on his body? And even as LF frames Tyrion by declaring it was Tyrion's, let's also not forget it was a dagger that Tyrion supposedly gifted to a catspaw. Why would Joffrey pick richly decorated gold dagger that according to you Tyrion would love and then just give it away to a catspaw?

Anyhow, my point wasn't that "the dagger" was the thing Joffrey was trying to frame Tyrion with.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

I noticed the same thing. It's like Tyrion is thinking in dog or wolf terms. Could be a slip-up, or it circles back ominously to "killing a dog". That is - the first foreshadowing that Tommen and Myrcella will die

It won't be the last time he will mix up baby animals.  I can't remember if there's more instances, but he called Sansa "as loyal as a fawn surrounded by wolves" and she corrects him by saying "lions."  Maybe it has to do with his perception of the person and the situation as he did with Sansa.  He does note how different Myrcella is in personality from Cersei.  It's obvious how kind and normal those kids are compared to the rest of the dysfunction lions.  Maybe that's why he disassociates them from lions, even though techinically they are pure lion and Tyrion knows it.  It could be foreshadowing of a dog killing a dog -- or rather animal X killing animal X -- but I don't think there's hints Myrcella and Tommen will meet their ends by a dog or wolf character (I could be wrong!).  I would expect their ends to be rather self-fulfilling prophecy from the actions of a lion.  Even though Sansa is made a lion by her marriage to Tyrion (she does not percieve herself to be truly a lion), she was the unwitting carrier of the poison that killed a lion.  In that loose interpretation, the formula fits.  But he was actually killed by roses with a dash of mockingbird/Titan.  Honestly, all these animals switching around has my head spinning sometimes lol 

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Based on this, we can infer that had Joffrey wished to implicate someone in the royal family such as Tyrion, he would rather have gone for something more ornate.

Ok, but wouldn't he know Valyrian steel may look plain, but it's actually rare and valuable?  Only noble houses possess them.  A noble family would certainly understand the significance of Valyrian steel and know it came from another noble house.  Let's also consider how house Lannister longs for its own Valyrian steel blade.  Joffrey would have been brought up around that and likely know it when he saw it.  

I do love your analysis of Cersei the book-burning pyrophiliac  It's funny how you said she is jealous of a knowledge and talent her father and Tyrion possessed and her son seems to be just like her.  As Joffrey can't abide his mother, I think Cersei can't really abide Tywin.  She feared him, resented the control he exercised over her life, and was jealous of his talents and power.  There's a ship named after her father that she takes amusement in being called a "she."  Her internalized misogyny is as great as Joffrey's.  She's just relishing being Regent with no Hand to interfere.  

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

 He used the lions to do his dirty work and henceforth he has forfeited the authority to call them out on getting 'dirty' in any way.  Thus, in 'recompense' for turning a blind eye to the murder of the Targaryen children, Robert's 'karmic legacy' lies in not having any legitimate children of his own, while allowing the pride of lions to breed under his nose and at his expense -- to which he is now obligated very ironically to turn a blind eye.  'An eye for an eye' -- that is the 'karmic punishment' or 'poetic justice' GRRM metes out for Robert's treachery.

I completely agree.

3 hours ago, ravenous reader said:

Great analysis.  Similarly, the Boltons skin wolves and people in order to identify themselves with the Stark wargs/skinchangers who have ruled the north with magic.

Also Cersei wants Lady's skin.  She could never fill the role of Lyanna Stark for both Rhaegar and Robert and now a Stark is coming again to take her place as queen to her son.  She wants to destroy Sansa's Stark-ness and deny it to her, and claim it for herself.  Then she remakes her a "little dove," a harmless prey animal that is no threat to her.     

 

       

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

33 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

I certainly disagree that a VS steel dagger with an ivory handle is not something a "nobleman" would carry. We have Catelyn's conclusions on the dagger to show it's not something you would find in the hands of a commoner. Logically, since ivory comes from elephants, which are exotic animals from Essos. Also what a king might find beneath himself, might not be beneath a nobleman.

And that particular dagger was actually a favorite hunting dagger of Robert's given to him by Jon Arryn, no?  Joffrey may or may not have known that personal attachment, but that also does tie the dagger to the Lannister/Baratheon collection.  I agree, fancy or not, the Valyrian steel would be known to be owned by a noble family.

[sweetsunray]

2 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

but I don't think there's hints Myrcella and Tommen will meet their ends by a dog or wolf character (I could be wrong!).

I said "killing a dog", not exactly "killing a dog with a dog". I agree, I don't think they will meet their end by a dog or wolf character. What I tried to say is that we have a sublimal threat made towards wolves and dogs, an omen that someone migh try to kill Bran. By associating Myrcella and Tommen with pups, George puts them in the class of threatened characters.

4 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

Maybe it has to do with his perception of the person and the situation as he did with Sansa.

I think it has to do with his self-identification. He's empathizing and rather identifying with the wolves at WF, more than lions. He considers Tommen and Myrcella to be more humane personalities, good hearted innocent people. So, he ranks them with the wolves.

With Sansa the wolf has become an animal to be scared of, an animal that might kill him: Robb's unwelcome, 3 direwolves threatening him in the hall of WF, a she-wolf Catelyn abducting him, and then the young wolf having captured his brother at RR. Of course, those wolves are a threat to him, but not to Sansa. And it also denotes his perception of her as a defenseless, easy to capture animal.

[sweetsunray]

6 minutes ago, Blue-Eyed Wolf said:

And that particular dagger was actually a favorite hunting dagger of Robert's given to him by Jon Arryn, no?  Joffrey may or may not have known that personal attachment, but that also does tie the dagger to the Lannister/Baratheon collection.  I agree, fancy or not, the Valyrian steel would be known to be owned by a noble family.

No. There's no mention that that was Robert's favorite hunting dagger.

Robert won the VS dagger on Joffrey's name day from LF when he bet against Jaime, while LF bet pro-Jaime. LF simply switched the identity of who won his VS dagger.

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

37 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No. There's no mention that that was Robert's favorite hunting dagger.

Nevermind, I was confusing it with the one Tywin mentions among all the jeweled daggers and swords Robert recieved as gifts. 

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"No doubt. The only blade he ever used was the hunting knife he had from Jon Arryn, when he was a boy."