A strong king acts boldly

[sweetsunray]

In the books Tyrion's POV leads us into believing that Joffrey is very much Cersei's son, that she encouraged him by spoiling him and never interfering with his maltreatment. Then in aSoS, we get the confrontation between Joffrey and Tywin, where Joffrey accuses Tywin of being a coward who hid under his rock while his father was the brave one who killed Rhaegar, and corrects Tywin's advice of leniency when the enemy surrenders with the declaration that "a strong king acts boldly". Tywin sends him to bed without dinner and wonders whomever told Joffrey such a thing. Tyrion and Tywin conclude it was Robert who put such ideas into Joffrey's head, because of the insult about Tywin hiding in his Rock, and Joff shows some type of wanting to make his father proud.

And yet why should we take Cersei's words for it?

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"Father, I am sorry," Cersei said, when the door was shut. "Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . ."

"There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid. 'A strong king acts boldly?' Who told him that?"

"Not me, I promise you," said Cersei. "Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . ."

"The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert." Tyrion didn't want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

"Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

"And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father."

"Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things . . ." (aSoS, Tyrion VI)

Her first response to "who told him that" is instantly denial of it being her, and then she gives some vague response that it must have been something Joffrey overheard Robert saying. Her first response is to deflect any suspicion of her and towards Robert. When Tyrion points the obvious thing that does indeed sound like Robert, Cersei jumps on it, and all of sudden she "recalls" that Robert told Joffrey that a king must be brave "often". Wait what?!!! And then next she deflects and minimizes everything. The above conversation is as obvious a "lie" than an 8-year old almost caught at something he or she knows would make mom or dad very angry.

As children we had this saying "the one who smells it first, did it!"

So, was Cersei lying here? Was "a strong king acts boldly" something that Cersei would teach her children? Now let's check her POV regarding Tommen, especially when she compares him negatively to Joffrey. Well, in Cersei's chapter of aFfC we already hit the jackpot.

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Tommen did as he was bid. His meekness troubled her. A king had to be strong. Joffrey would have argued. He was never easy to cow. [...] as fierce as Joffrey, a true lion cub. (aFfC, Cersei II)

And then when we consider one of the names of the ships made for the new fleet.

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Aurane had asked her leave to name her Lord Tywin, which Cersei had been pleased to grant. She looked forward to hearing men speak of her father as a "she." Another of the ships would be named Sweet Cersei, and would bear a gilded figurehead carved in her likeness, clad in mail and lion helm, with spear in hand. Brave Joffrey, Lady Joanna, and Lioness would follow her to sea, along with Queen Margaery, Golden Rose, Lord Renly, Lady Olenna, and Princess Myrcella. The queen had made the mistake of telling Tommen he might name the last five. He had actually chosen Moon Boy for one. Only when Lord Aurane suggested that men might not want to serve on a ship named for a fool had the boy reluctantly agreed to honor his sister instead. aFfC, Cersei VI)

Aurane named the flagship Lord Tywin and likely another Sweet Cersei. That Cersei allowed Tommen to name the last five, indicates that Aurane gave Cersei the chance to name eight of the ten ships, aside from the two he named to flatter Cersei. So she named a few herself and left the rest to Tommen. Tommen would never named a ship after Joffrey. He didn't like his older brother, though he liked Myrcella (cried for her when she left), and even almost forgot to name a ship after his sister. Heck not one ship is even named after the king's father. Cersei laments Joffrey, her golden child, the one she thinks would make (made) a better king than Tommen ever can. She laments her mother, hating Tyrion for being the death of her. And then "Lioness. And with Joffrey it's "Brave Joffrey".

Or how about when the HS mentions Ned's execution at Baelor's Sept

 

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"Night soil can be washed away more easily than blood, Your Grace. If the plaza was befouled, it was befouled by the execution that was done here."

He dares throw Ned Stark in my face? "We all regret that. Joffrey was young, and not as wise as he might have been. Lord Stark should have been beheaded elsewhere, out of respect for Blessed Baelor . . . but the man was a traitor, let us not forget."

"King Baelor forgave those who conspired against him." (aFfC, Cersei VI)

 

 

Wait what? Wasn't he supposed to be forgiven and sent to the NW? Sounds more like Cersei intended to have Ned Stark killed, out of sight.

 

 

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But the king was deaf to sense, thanks to his little queen. "If we mingle with the commons, they will love us better."

"The mob loved the fat High Septon so well they tore him limb from limb, and him a holy man," she reminded him. All it did was make him sullen with her. Just as Margaery wants, I wager. Every day in every way she tries to steal him from me. Joffrey would have seen through her schemer's smile and let her know her place, but Tommen was more gullible. She knew Joff was too strong for her, Cersei thought, remembering the gold coin Qyburn had found. (aFfC, Cersei VI)

 

 

Does that in any way as a mother who'd never tell Joffrey how a strong king acts? Or how about this?

 

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"You know what I must do."

"Must!" She put her hand on his good leg, just above the knee. "A true man does what he will, not what he must." Her fingers brushed lightly against his thigh, the gentlest of promises. "The realm needs a strong Hand. Joff will not come of age for years. No one wants war again, least of all me." (aGoT, Eddard XII)

 

 

Cersei says a true man, a real man does what he will, not what he must, and she connects it with "strong".

 

And actually we witness a scene that illustrates perfectly where Joffrey could have heard it.

 

 

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The queen looked to her husband. "If any man had dared speak to a Targaryen as he has spoken to you—"

"Do you take me for Aerys?" Robert interrupted.

"I took you for a king. Jaime and Tyrion are your own brothers, by all the laws of marriage and the bonds we share. The Starks have driven off the one and seized the other. This man dishonors you with every breath he takes, and yet you stand there meekly, asking if his leg pains him and would he like some wine."

Robert's face was dark with anger. "How many times must I tell you to hold your tongue, woman?"

Cersei's face was a study in contempt. "What a jape the gods have made of us two," she said. "By all rights, you ought to be in skirts and me in mail." (aGoT, Eddard X)

 

 

How often did Robert and Cersei have words like this? I'd say a lot. She would have seen slights in everything, and fought with him over his non-action, likely said something along the lines of "a strong king would act boldly", probably compared Robert to her brother and then Tywin, to which Robret replied that her grandfather was a coward hiding under his rock while he slew Rhaegar at the Trident. Meanwhile she likely often reminded Joffrey what a brave, strong boy he was and what a strong king he would be one day...

Heck, Cersei doesn't actually think so highly of her father herself, who wedded her to Robert and failed to marry her to Rhaegar. For all we know she herself might have spoken about Tywin in a derogotary manner with Joffrey there.

Now, I'm not saying that Joffrey didn't try to get his father's attention, that he didn't listen to some of the stuff Robert sometimes said in his drunkenness. But the sole person who we we constantly see deride empathy, duty, reasonability and forgiveness as meekness and weakness is Cersei. She is certainly showing all the exemplary behavior and thoughts that Joffrey expresses in his "I want them all killed" and how wrong Tywin is, and how nobody tells a king what to do, ...

What I see in Joffrey is a mix of admiration for his father, a need to defend him, combined with standing up against others and his mother, while simultaneously putting her words and thinking into practice.

 

[Lord Varys]

You make some good points and I agree especially with your take on Cersei's behavior when talking to Tywin. Yet.we should also assume that Robert spend some time with his children, telling them war stories and the like, and Joffrey always wanted to impress his father. He knows about the Ruby Ford, he hears Robert's words about Bran and acts accordingly, and he begins to loath Sansa and all things Stark with a passion after Robert publicly chastises him over allowing Arya to disarm him.

Cersei is most likely the person who fed Joffrey the idea that he should and could do whatever the hell he wanted, etc. but the quintessence of Robert's talks with his son would have been basically the same.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Wait what? Wasn't he supposed to be forgiven and sent to the NW? Sounds more like Cersei intended to have Ned Stark killed, out of sight.

No, that's just Cersei not admitting after the fact that Eddard was supposed to go to the Wall. Joffrey chose to execute him, so execution it was. Admitting that she had a different plan and her son interfered with that would be a weakness. They had a quarrel after that with the old High Septon but the High Septon is the successor of that man's successor, she doesn't have to be honest with him about this incident.

[sweetsunray]

24 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

No, that's just Cersei not admitting after the fact that Eddard was supposed to go to the Wall. Joffrey chose to execute him, so execution it was. Admitting that she had a different plan and her son interfered with that would be a weakness. They had a quarrel after that with the old High Septon but the High Septon is the successor of that man's successor, she doesn't have to be honest with him about this incident.

Possibly.

25 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

You make some good points and I agree especially with your take on Cersei's behavior when talking to Tywin. Yet.we should also assume that Robert spend some time with his children, telling them war stories and the like, and Joffrey always wanted to impress his father. He knows about the Ruby Ford, he hears Robert's words about Bran and acts accordingly, and he begins to loath Sansa and all things Stark with a passion after Robert publicly chastises him over allowing Arya to disarm him.

Cersei is most likely the person who fed Joffrey the idea that he should and could do whatever the hell he wanted, etc. but the quintessence of Robert's talks with his son would have been basically the same.

I'm not denying Robert has had his influences. For example, Joff probably overheard Robert say something about people showing mercy to a dog, but not to a child, and he put that into practice. It's quite something very much like Robert to say (though we hear Cersei something similar in front of Tommen and Myrcella at the WF breakfast). And crapping on Tywin and Jaime as well. But the whole "a strong king acts boldly"?  That's so much Cersei, and it doesn't even seem something that Robert would say.

It's weird though: he looks up to the man he believes to be his father, despite having received a beating from him; he's very dismissive of Cersei, almost as if it's payback time towards her, and yet he certainly ends up acting and behaving much like Cersei often professes she wants Robert and Tommen to behave and she's proud of him. It's almost like he throws her words and behavior towards Robert back into her face.

[Lord Varys]

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Possibly.

I'm not denying Robert has had his influences. For example, Joff probably overheard Robert say something about people showing mercy to a dog, but not to a child, and he put that into practice. It's quite something very much like Robert to say (though we hear Cersei something similar in front of Tommen and Myrcella at the WF breakfast). And crapping on Tywin and Jaime as well. But the whole "a strong king acts boldly"?  That's so much Cersei, and it doesn't even seem something that Robert would say.

Indeed it is. And the fact that Joffrey phrases it way he does makes it pretty clear that it was Cersei who said it, not Robert. Robert most likely never tried to teach what a good or a strong king should do. The person trying to teach Joffrey about his kingship was Cersei.

17 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It's weird though: he looks up to the man he believes to be his father, despite having received a beating from him; he's very dismissive of Cersei, almost as if it's payback time towards her, and yet he certainly ends up acting and behaving much like Cersei often professes she wants Robert and Tommen to behave and she's proud of him. It's almost like he throws her words and behavior towards Robert back into her face.

What do you expect of him? Cersei is a woman and thus per definition weak and secondary in this world. She is his mother which means she can sort of lecture him but only up to a point, and that point is drawing ever more closer in the books. Joff would have dealt with Cersei as Nero dealt with Agrippina.

Robert was the boy's father and the great warrior-king. Joffrey wanted his respect and affection. His mother already loved him, that was a given. But Robert was pretty much absent, and the only way he saw to impress his father was to act 'manly' he the way he thought Robert wanted him to act. Part of that would have been to prove that he wasn't a momma's boy.

In addition, Joff (and his siblings) should also have been aware of the abusive relationship between their parents. Robert may not have hit Cersei so that she kept any bruises while Jaime was still in KL but he certainly would have yelled at her, and shown her his contempt (and she hers for him) in front of the children. Little children see more often than their parents realize, and it seems as if Joffrey tended to take his father's side rather than his mother's.

[sweetsunray]

12 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

Indeed it is. And the fact that Joffrey phrases it way he does makes it pretty clear that it was Cersei who said it, not Robert. Robert most likely never tried to teach what a good or a strong king should do. The person trying to teach Joffrey about his kingship was Cersei.

What do you expect of him? Cersei is a woman and thus per definition weak and secondary in this world. She is his mother which means she can sort of lecture him but only up to a point, and that point is drawing ever more closer in the books. Joff would have dealt with Cersei as Nero dealt with Agrippina.

Robert was the boy's father and the great warrior-king. Joffrey wanted his respect and affection. His mother already loved him, that was a given. But Robert was pretty much absent, and the only way he saw to impress his father was to act 'manly' he the way he thought Robert wanted him to act. Part of that would have been to prove that he wasn't a momma's boy.

In addition, Joff (and his siblings) should also have been aware of the abusive relationship between their parents. Robert may not have hit Cersei so that she kept any bruises while Jaime was still in KL but he certainly would have yelled at her, and shown her his contempt (and she hers for him) in front of the children. Little children see more often than their parents realize, and it seems as if Joffrey tended to take his father's side rather than his mother's.

We are in full agreement! And you give a valid explanation why he'd put Cersei down - he was already secure of his mother's admiration and attention. He could treat his mother like shit, and she'd admire him for it.

[Lord Varys]

3 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

We are in full agreement! And you give a valid explanation why he'd put Cersei down - he was already secure of his mother's admiration and attention. He could treat his mother like shit, and she'd admire him for it.

Yeah, because that's Cersei's own take on what a strong man has to do. Treat his women like shit and do whatever the hell he wants, never listening to his own mother.

The whole thing of Joffrey not respecting Cersei because he knew she would never mistreat or severely punish him is directly discussed in the books when Tyrion brings up the point in conversation with Cersei that he could deal with Joff much better because of that fact. But he was he was afraid on Tyrion, we learned that as early as AGoT.

By the way, Joff's accusation that Tywin hid under Casterly Rock would be something he most likely heard from Robert or some other Baratheons (Stannis, Renly) or Baratheon men. It is not something Cersei or the Lannister men at court would say.

[sweetsunray]

39 minutes ago, Lord Varys said:

By the way, Joff's accusation that Tywin hid under Casterly Rock would be something he most likely heard from Robert or some other Baratheons (Stannis, Renly) or Baratheon men. It is not something Cersei or the Lannister men at court would say.

Also agreed. That's how George manages to make the reader believe Cersei's claim "the strong king acts boldly" comes from Robert. We can totally see Robert make a dig on Tywin, especially in a fight with Cersei if she says anything remotely favorable of Tywin as ruler in comparison to Robert. A fight we could certainly insert off-page is at the Trident, where she wants Arya physically punished or killed for striking Joffrey, either before or after Arya was dragged in front of Robert several days after the incident. Tywin would simply never stand for any of his children being physically harmed, no matter what that child had done to provoke it, no matter whether the other person is a child defending itself, and Cersei would no doubt have brought it up. Robert would have argued (as he did to Ned) that it were just children fighting amongst each other, and how Arya was his best friend's daughter, his chosen hand. And no doubt Cersei woudl have accused him of cowardice, to which he woudl then instantly remark that the Great Tywin hid under his rock while he slew Rhaegar at the Trident.

So, Joff uses something that Robert no doubt said in one of his many arguments with Cersei, while also saying something that Cersei said. Tyrion recognizes what Robert would have said, but does not seem to recognize the other thing at that point the other words are very much Cersei's.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

19 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

What do you expect of him? Cersei is a woman and thus per definition weak and secondary in this world. She is his mother which means she can sort of lecture him but only up to a point, and that point is drawing ever more closer in the books. Joff would have dealt with Cersei as Nero dealt with Agrippina.

This. 

Robert certainly displayed mysogynistic behaviors (as do most men in this world). We see this in conversations with Ned and the slap he deals Cersei after Ned breaks his leg. Joff would certainly have picked up on this. I feel that Joff tried to emulate Robert but also picked up on his mother's "advice" when it fit what Joff believed to be a good king (strong, bold, etc.) 

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“My mother bids me let Lord Eddard take the black, and Lady Sansa has begged mercy for her father.” He looked straight at Sansa then, and smiled, and for a moment Arya thought that the gods had heard her prayer, until Joffrey turned back to the crowd and said, “But they have the soft hearts of women. So long as I am your king, treason shall never go unpunished. Ser Ilyn, bring me his head!”

I'm trying to recall any moments where Joff witnesses either Robert or Cersei display any sort of empathy, understanding, or forgiveness. I suppose not hurting Arya (but still killing Lady) was the closest thing to it. 

While Joff may or may not have had some help in deciding to execute Ned, I think he certainly believed he was "acting boldly" in that instance. Also helping in this decision was his morbid cruelty (that cat story bugs me so much even though I know it's a book).

22 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

What I see in Joffrey is a mix of admiration for his father, a need to defend him, combined with standing up against others and his mother, while simultaneously putting her words and thinking into practice.

This sums it up pretty well, IMO. He had an admiration for his father as a strong man and warrior but was also influenced by his mother's words on how a king should act. 

Sorry if bringing up Ned's execution was a slight derail. I just feel that it is a prime example of Joff being Joff and how his relationship with both parents influenced it.

[sweetsunray]

25 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Sorry if bringing up Ned's execution was a slight derail. I just feel that it is a prime example of Joff being Joff and how his relationship with both parents influenced it.

Actually it was a quote of that execution in an essay I'm revizing that lead me to this. So, it's certainly ok by me.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

22 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Actually it was a quote of that execution in an essay I'm revizing that lead me to this. So, it's certainly ok by me.

Great! I look forward to reading it!

[Curled Finger]

If I may...good arguments and insights all the way around.  I read Joffrey differently.   As always that doesn't make me right, but it does allow for some alternate or even deeper discussion.   I saw no love for Robert in Joffrey.    Not in the catspaw or anything Joffrey did.   Robert wasn't known to be a cruel or harsh person.   The worst I saw from him was his blind hatred for Targs.  Did Joff really care what his father thought or did?   Robert seemed to be absent or at the very least disinterested in his children.   Given Cersei's penache for drama and indeed propensity to lie (whether from warped perception or sheer paranoia), isn't it possible that she was the influence over Joffrey and all his ghastliness and cruelty is a result of her own influence over him?   I'm having a hard time envisioning Robert, who did not want to have Lady killed and did not harm Arya, slapping a little boy so hard his teeth came out.    This just sounds like Cersei vilifying Robert.    Again.    We saw Robert slap Cersei.   But we also saw Cersei goad and taunt him.  (No, one action does not make the other right--it's only there to shore up the idea you don't bitch and harp at drunken kings who really don't care.)  

I'm not tearing at the reasoning at all.   If I believed Robert spent 10 minutes with any of his children over the spans of their lives I would perhaps believe differently.  My biggest problem with the entire Baratheon/Lannister marriage/family is that no one actually cared about the kids.   Cersei is a demented power player.  She uses and manipulates her children to her own ends.   Was she sad when Joff died or Myrcella left?   Of course.   It doesn't mean she actually loves them.   But she is likely the one who spent time with them.  Her twisted Lannister pride seeps through as does her utter disdain for her husband.  

I would be happy to learn more about what I've got wrong here.   This is just how I've read it all.   

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

35 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

If I may...good arguments and insights all the way around.  I read Joffrey differently.   As always that doesn't make me right, but it does allow for some alternate or even deeper discussion.

I'm always excited to read what Curled Finger has to say!

36 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I saw no love for Robert in Joffrey.  

I agree with this. However, I do think that Joff sought his father's approval. While Joff may not have loved Robert I do think he wanted to be loved and applauded by Robert. But you're right, he did not love him. I think we see that with this comment after Robert dies.

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“I am sorry for your loss as well, Joffrey,” the dwarf said.

“What loss?”

“Your royal father? A large fierce man with a black beard; you’ll recall him if you try. He was king before you.”

“Oh, him. Yes, it was very sad, a boar killed him.”

There are several occurences where Joff speaks fondly of his father though. Most of them in regards to Robert's prowess as a warrior. 

This quote is different though. 

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"A king can have other women. Whores. My father did. One of the Aegons did too. The third one, or the fourth. He had lots of whores and lots of bastards." As they whirled to the music, Joff gave her a moist kiss. "My uncle will bring you to my bed whenever I command it."

This quote is from SoS, Sansa III. So Robert has been dead for some time. Joff brings up Robert's whoring habits. While I think he is more interested in threatening Sansa than actually coupling with her, it is interesting he would bring up Robert in this instance. He is using it as a reason to justify potential sex with Sansa. 

Going back to Joff viewing Robert as the warrior king type... I've always wondered if Joff would have had more desire to become a warrior if Cersei was different or not around. Joff shows that he is proud of Robert's battlefield prowess yet doesn't want to put in the work himself (downplaying and disrespecting the practice the boys had in Winterfell, not doing any other sword work that I can recall). Is he lazy? Is it because Cersei has protected him from having to work at anything?  Both? Is he lazy because of Cersei?

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Given Cersei's penache for drama and indeed propensity to lie (whether from warped perception or sheer paranoia), isn't it possible that she was the influence over Joffrey and all his ghastliness and cruelty is a result of her own influence over him?  

Absolutely. Although the cat thing has always made me think Joff had a certain cruelty which he would have had without Cersei's help. Here is the cat thing I'm talking about:

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"I suppose not." The king ran his fingers across the table. "Joffrey . . . I remember once, this kitchen cat . . . the cooks were wont to feed her scraps and fish heads. One told the boy that she had kittens in her belly, thinking he might want one. Joffrey opened up the poor thing with a dagger to see if it were true. When he found the kittens, he brought them to show to his father. Robert hit the boy so hard I thought he'd killed him." The king took off his crown and placed it on the table. "Dwarf or leech, this killer served the kingdom well. They must send for me now."

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

We saw Robert slap Cersei.   But we also saw Cersei goad and taunt him.  (No, one action does not make the other right--it's only there to shore up the idea you don't bitch and harp at drunken kings who really don't care.)  

Yup. And to further prove that Cersei has more influence over Joffrey, we see where Joff learned his views on hitting your wife...

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King Joffrey’s face hardened. “My mother tells me that it isn’t fitting that a king should strike his wife. Ser Meryn.”

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

It doesn't mean she actually loves them.

I actually do think Cersei loves her kids. She just doesn't know how to be a parent. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

I would be happy to learn more about what I've got wrong here.   This is just how I've read it all.   

Always good to discuss things with you! 

[Blue-Eyed Wolf]

10 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Robert certainly displayed mysogynistic behaviors (as do most men in this world). We see this in conversations with Ned and the slap he deals Cersei after Ned breaks his leg. Joff would certainly have picked up on this. I feel that Joff tried to emulate Robert but also picked up on his mother's "advice" when it fit what Joff believed to be a good king (strong, bold, etc.) 

I totally agree.  I would add that Cersei's internalized (or not-so-internalized) misogyny often rears its head and likely in front of Joffrey.  Cersei is never sympathetic towards other women being abused and often uses females as an example of weakness and worthlessness.  She acts as if the fact that she was born a woman is her unfortunate lot in life to be bitterly endured. 

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

She uses and manipulates her children to her own ends.   Was she sad when Joff died or Myrcella left?   Of course.   It doesn't mean she actually loves them.   But she is likely the one who spent time with them.  Her twisted Lannister pride seeps through as does her utter disdain for her husband.  

I do question her supposed love of motherhood.  She told Sansa she probably won't love Joffrey but she'll love his children.  This is a load of BS.  Cersei went out of her way drinking moontea to ensure she never had any of Robert's children.  Even having Jaime's children seems to be more of a supreme act of narcissism rather than love.  I think she loves being regent and she loves the position of power her minor children grant her after she is widowed.  

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

This quote is from SoS, Sansa III. So Robert has been dead for some time. Joff brings up Robert's whoring habits. While I think he is more interested in threatening Sansa than actually coupling with her, it is interesting he would bring up Robert in this instance. He is using it as a reason to justify potential sex with Sansa. 

Going back to Joff viewing Robert as the warrior king type... I've always wondered if Joff would have had more desire to become a warrior if Cersei was different or not around. Joff shows that he is proud of Robert's battlefield prowess yet doesn't want to put in the work himself (downplaying and disrespecting the practice the boys had in Winterfell, not doing any other sword work that I can recall). Is he lazy? Is it because Cersei has protected him from having to work at anything?  Both? Is he lazy because of Cersei?

I agree with both assessments.  Joffrey was certainly always interested in terrorizing Sansa, even in non-sexual ways like showing her her father's head.  It does seem to take a more sexual turn as Sansa is growing older and obviously developing, but it's always about the charge he gets from seeing her cry or become afraid.  Also in your quote, Joffrey also links his father to Aegon the Unworthy but infuses it with a sadistic threat.  If this is also like his threats and bragging of using his fighting "skills," I think this also might be an area he has anxieties of not measuring up to his father.  Hence his aggression is turned on the reminder that he won't be his father's son:  describing all Robert's partners as whores and also making a whore of Sansa.  I think Robert may have set an example, but he likely learned his attitudes toward masculinity and strength from Cersei.      

Second bolded, it's probably a laziness from Cersei always telling him how awesome he already is, but it's also likely that Joffrey is well aware of how badly he sucks as a warrior and doesn't want anyone to see it.  He was crying when Arya beat him up with a stick and he had a real sword, but only became furiously angry at Sansa because she saw it.  That scene in the Winterfell practice yard is telling.  Joffrey is challenged by Robb to another round, but Joffrey mocks him and suggests using real steel edged swords.  Robb doesn't miss a beat and accepts.  

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"Done," Robb shot back. "You'll be sorry!"
The master-at-arms put a hand on Robb's shoulder to quiet him. "Live steel is too dangerous. I will permit you tourney swords, with blunted edges."
Joffrey said nothing, but a man strange to Arya, a tall knight with black hair and burn scars on his face, pushed forward in front of the prince. "This is your prince. Who are you to tell him he may not have an edge on his sword, ser?"

Joffrey probably said real swords knowing full well the master-at-arms would never allow such a danger to be used on a crown prince.  He can act tough without actually having to prove anything.  He's right, but Rodrick will allow blunted tourney swords which are probably going to hurt pretty bad too.  Joffrey isn't so braggy anymore.  In fact, he shuts up.  What's hilarious is that the Hound steps up and encourages the use of real swords, likely knowing Joffrey really does suck and it's the perfect moment to see that little shit get cut and start crying in front of everyone.  It's done perfectly with the seeming intent of obeying Joffrey's own command.   But Cersei often does give Joffrey an excuse that he doesn't actually have to demonstrate his skills, because deep down they are both essentially cowards and hate being exposed as such.  I don't think she's really holding him back from anything against his will.  Tommen does try, he's not afraid of trying and failing, so he has more courage than his older brother.  

2 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Absolutely. Although the cat thing has always made me think Joff had a certain cruelty which he would have had without Cersei's help. 

About the cat incident.  Does anyone else think there's something there to his animal cruely being focused on cats and he's a lion?  It's also cats that will be the victims of his awful crossbow practice.  In this incident, it's focused on a pregnant female cat and he runs to show his father the kittens.  Look at the kittens Robert!!!  I wonder if Joffrey, as stupid as he is, deep down knows something about his parentage and that's also a reason for resentment toward his parents.  

Oh and Robert knows Joffrey isn't right in the head, but still wants to marry him to his best friend's daughter.        

     

[sweetsunray]

Some interesting points were raised.

The cat incident and his cruelties, such as fighting to the death, shows his levels of affective empathy and emotional scala are very very low. This imo is not just nurture, since Tommen and Myrcella grew up around the same disastrous marriage, and sound like normally aware kids (in comparison to what can be expected at their ages). So, Joffrey didn't have much on that account to begin with. And that's why he fails to understand that his father was overall an understanding king not like to meet out harsh punishments when things went wrong. And why I agree that Joffrey didn't "love" Robert. But he would still desire Robert's approval, admiration and attention. We associate these with "love", but they don't have to be. And here it's not Joffrey paying attention to Robert, but what someone else can give Joffrey.

The cat incident is told us from 2 different POVs - as something dismissable and not worth breaking your mind over according to Cersei, while Stannis makes it a story of a too young boy who was just curious. Both would interprete and "explain" this incident to their own understanding. Cersei doesn't care about cats and people, so whatever Joffrey does to others makes no matter. Stannis is suspected to have autistic spectrum. Now, people with autism spectrum also have an issue with empathy... they have low cognitive empathy. Most have rich inner emotional lives and affective empathy, but can't read the cues - reading faces and expressions - and cannot project how their actions may emotionally affect other people. So, a child with autistic spectrum may end up studying a live animal and hurting it, without really getting they are hurting another being or meaning to, but when they are later explained why it was hurtful, they will be wrecked with guilt over it and feel genuinely sorry.

And I find it curious that Stannis interpretes the cat incident in such a way - Joffrey wanted to find out the truth, to show his father. Stannis cannot be sure that those were Joffrey's reasons. He's just interpreting from his own experience or understanding, which is limited.

What we see instead with Tommen losing his fawn because Joffrey wanted to make a jerkin out of it, the hares, the pelting a cat with arrows in the throne room shows that Joffrey tries to emulate hunting, and has no regard for animal life whatsoever, likes to instill fear in people, or emotionally and physically hurt them. In other words, there's actually little wrong with Joffrey's cognitive empathy. He knows what animals and people feel physically and emotionally, and he enjoys making them feel that way, he just doesn't care. So, he's low on affective empathy, and high on cognitive empathy, which is the other way around of Stannis. So, I don't fully trust Stannis's explanations surrounding the cat incident.

I'll bet if you were to ask Renly about the incident, he'd tell it from a "look at me, see what I caugh!" interpretation.

So, Joffrey not the most affective empathic person to begin with, with a propensity to cruelty and need for attention, with a father greatly disturbed by him, and Cersei keeping her children to her frocks, telling him how strong and bold he is, but also limiting his exercise to protect him. He is sure of Cersei's admiration. He gets none from his father. He sees them fighting, his father with his hands when Cersei makes him see red, and Cersei's poisonous words and accusations. He wants to fight and hunt like his father, but Cersei prevents him much in that. And in order to get his father's admiration, he can only pick on pets, little brothers and sisters and the stableyard boys. As he does this he discovers he derives personal enjoyment out of it. Meanwhile he's aware enough of his lacking abilities, so avoids training against Robb, but tries to save face with put downs, as he does on his name day tourney about the gnat-tourney, growing into a Commodus if not a Caligula more and more.   

 

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

On 21.01.2017 at 10:06 PM, sweetsunray said:

When Tyrion points the obvious thing that does indeed sound like Robert, Cersei jumps on it, and all of sudden she "recalls" that Robert told Joffrey that a king must be brave "often". Wait what?!!! And then next she deflects and minimizes everything. The above conversation is as obvious a "lie" than an 8-year old almost caught at something he or she knows would make mom or dad very angry.

As children we had this saying "the one who smells it first, did it!"

So, was Cersei lying here?

Yes, and no. Yes, in the "he certainly didn't hear anything like that from me" part. And no, in the "Robert would say something like this" part. Cersei had the delusions of Joffrey being a brave, perfect prince, and Bob had very similar opinion of himself. And, yes, "Robert won the war while Tywin waited hidden under the Rock" does sound as something Bob could have said a dozen times. Cersei - never.

But, yes, she has an instinctive knee-jerk reaction of a child trying to redirect a parent's incoming wrath. Shows the nature of her relation with Tywin more than anything else.

On 21.01.2017 at 10:06 PM, sweetsunray said:

Wait what? Wasn't he supposed to be forgiven and sent to the NW? Sounds more like Cersei intended to have Ned Stark killed, out of sight.

Yes, sounds like it. It's supposed to sound like it. Because the alternative would've been to admit, and to an enemy (more or less), that Joffrey the Perfect had fucked up big time. She could second-guess Joffrey when talking in private to family, not strangers.

Come on, it's not as if the High Sparrow is a person Sweet Cersei actually is honest and truthful with.

[ravenous reader]

54 minutes ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

she has an instinctive knee-jerk reaction of a child trying to redirect a parent's incoming wrath. Shows the nature of her relation with Tywin more than anything else.

I agree with your analysis.  That's where and when the defensive behavior pattern was formed.

On 1/21/2017 at 4:06 PM, sweetsunray said:

In the books Tyrion's POV leads us into believing that Joffrey is very much Cersei's son, that she encouraged him by spoiling him and never interfering with his maltreatment. Then in aSoS, we get the confrontation between Joffrey and Tywin, where Joffrey accuses Tywin of being a coward who hid under his rock while his father was the brave one who killed Rhaegar, and corrects Tywin's advice of leniency when the enemy surrenders with the declaration that "a strong king acts boldly". Tywin sends him to bed without dinner and wonders whomever told Joffrey such a thing. Tyrion and Tywin conclude it was Robert who put such ideas into Joffrey's head, because of the insult about Tywin hiding in his Rock, and Joff shows some type of wanting to make his father proud.

And yet why should we take Cersei's words for it?

One should never take Cersei's word as fact.  In fact, she confirms as much herself to her supposed closest confidante:

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ASOS--Jaime IX

“Threats mean nothing. He swears he did not do it.”

    “Oh, he swears, is that it? And dwarfs don’t lie, is that what you think?”

    “Not to me. No more than you would.”

    “You great golden fool. He’s lied to you a thousand times, and so have I.” 

Following your example:

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"Father, I am sorry," Cersei said, when the door was shut. "Joff has always been willful, I did warn you . . ."

"There is a long league's worth of difference between willful and stupid. 'A strong king acts boldly?' Who told him that?"

"Not me, I promise you," said Cersei.

1.  Denial of responsibility by Cersei (let's call it knee-jerk denial)

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"Most like it was something he heard Robert say . . ."

2.  Projection of blame onto Robert (who is conveniently dead and cannot defend himself, meaning no-one can fact-check Cersei's assertion).

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"The part about you hiding under Casterly Rock does sound like Robert." Tyrion didn't want Lord Tywin forgetting that bit.

When others are persuaded by her manipulation and entertain the possibility she's introduced, she rolls with it:

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"Yes, I recall now," Cersei said, "Robert often told Joff that a king must be bold."

3.  Embellishment of the lie:  whereas just before it had merely been a speculation ('most like'), now it becomes absolute confirmation ('I recall', 'Robert often told...'), followed by lurid descriptions of Robert's over-the-top cruelty, really laying it on thick to bolster up her case:

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"And what were you telling him, pray? I did not fight a war to seat Robert the Second on the Iron Throne. You gave me to understand the boy cared nothing for his father."

"Why would he? Robert ignored him. He would have beat him if I'd allowed it. That brute you made me marry once hit the boy so hard he knocked out two of his baby teeth, over some mischief with a cat. I told him I'd kill him in his sleep if he ever did it again, and he never did, but sometimes he would say things . . ." (aSoS, Tyrion VI)

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Her first response to "who told him that" is instantly denial of it being her, and then she gives some vague response that it must have been something Joffrey overheard Robert saying.

Indeed.  I know you don't wanna go there sweetsunray -- because it opens a predictable can of worms -- but you know as I know that we've seen this characteristic pattern of behavior you've cleverly analyzed here before:

'some vague response that it must have been something Joff overheard Robert saying...'

Namely:

Quote

    “He is your son . . .”

    “He is my seed. He’s never called me Father. No more than Joffrey ever did. You warned me a thousand times never to show any undue interest in them.”

    “To keep them safe! You as well. How would it have looked if my brother had played the father to the king’s children? Even Robert might have grown suspicious.”

    “Well, he’s beyond suspicion now.” Robert’s death still left a bitter taste in Jaime’s mouth. It should have been me who killed him, not Cersei. “I only wished he’d died at my hands.” When I still had two of them. “If I’d let kingslaying become a habit, as he liked to say, I could have taken you as my wife for all the world to see. I’m not ashamed of loving you, only of the things I’ve done to hide it. That boy at Winterfell . . .”

    “Did I tell you to throw him out the window?

So, the pattern again:  Instant denial of responsibility by Cersei.

Well, technically, not in so many words, no, she did not 'tell' Jaime to throw Bran out the window; however, human beings use other cues to make their desires known.  On being caught en flagrante by Bran the budding peeping-tom greenseer-in-the-making, I do recall Cersei running around frantically like a banshee, screaming blue murder -- and then those telling words when Jaime stretched out his hand to Bran to pull him to safety, 'What [the hell do you think] you're doing?!'  And if looks could kill ...

A Game of Thrones - Bran II

Bran's fingers started to slip. He grabbed the ledge with his other hand. Fingernails dug into unyielding stone. The man reached down. "Take my hand," he said. "Before you fall."

Bran seized his arm and held on tight with all his strength. The man yanked him up to the ledge. "What are you doing?" the woman demanded.

To conclude, this is also one of Cersei's self- and other deceptions.  She wanted Jaime to let Bran fall.  

Anyway, that's not the main point of highlighting this passage, so moving on...

Quote

If you’d gone hunting as I begged you, nothing would have happened. But no, you had to have me, you could not wait until we returned to the city.”

    “I’d waited long enough. I hated watching Robert stumble to your bed every night, always wondering if maybe this night he’d decide to claim his rights as husband.” Jaime suddenly remembered something else that troubled him about Winterfell. “At Riverrun, Catelyn Stark seemed convinced I’d sent some footpad to slit her son’s throat. That I’d given him a dagger.”

    “That,” she said scornfully. “Tyrion asked me about that.”

    “There was a dagger. The scars on Lady Catelyn’s hands were real enough, she showed them to me. Did you . . . ?”

To Jaime's direct question -- actually a 'yes-no' question -- she answers evasively in typical fashion:

Quote

    “Oh, don’t be absurd.”

1.  Denial (evasive and defensive)

Quote

Cersei closed the window.

I consider this a sort of 'tell', although it doesn't follow the classic definition.  Sometimes when people lie, they display a stereotyped nervous, unconscious physical mannerism (poker players study these in each other in order to 'read' a bluff, etc.).  So what we're seeing is the physical translation of the psychological unease in the distracting behavior of the closing of the window, which also buys Cersei time to think about how to formulate her next response (lying about something always takes more time than telling the truth).  It also means that for a few seconds her back is turned to her brother -- the interrogator, and as we've seen Cersei hates being interrogated and found accountable -- and she has an excuse to break eye contact with him.  I think this is telling -- but I realise the detractors will argue that of course she had to close the window because she didn't want someone outside to hear the sensitive discussion.  Moving on...

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“Yes, I hoped the boy would die. So did you.

2.  Projection of blame, first onto Jaime, and then predictably onto the dead man who can't deny or confirm the veracity of her statements...

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Even Robert thought that would have been for the best. ‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children,’ he told me. He was blind himself at the time, from drink.”

Dear old Robert.  All those things that dear old dead sot she so despised said when in his cups...so convenient when you need an alibi...detailed minutiae of which Cersei can instantly recall and repeat verbatim to make the case --

3.  with lots of juicy Embellishment of course!

Quote

 Robert? Jaime had guarded the king long enough to know that Robert Baratheon said things in his cups that he would have denied angrily the next day. “Were you alone when Robert said this?”

    “You don’t think he said it to Ned Stark, I hope? Of course we were alone. Us and the children.” Cersei removed her hairnet and draped it over a bedpost, then shook out her golden curls. “Perhaps Myrcella sent this man with the dagger, do you think so?”

Ah -- the children overheard it!  Notice that she adds the children's presence almost as a hasty afterthought, although her first response was that she'd been alone with Robert -- 'alone' does not mean 'alone with the children'.  However, it doesn't suit her purposes to have been alone with Robert when he was supposedly saying all those suggestive things in his cups (by the way, wouldn't that have been after the children's bedtime?).  In order to point the finger away from herself, she is willing to implicate her own children, and potentially frame them!!  (I don't buy her 'saving grace' that she 'loves her children')

And Jaime is led by the nose, right to the conclusion she wants him to make...

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    It was meant as mockery, but she’d cut right to the heart of it, Jaime saw at once. “Not Myrcella. Joffrey.”

    Cersei frowned. “Joffrey had no love for Robb Stark, but the younger boy was nothing to him. He was only a child himself.”

    “A child hungry for a pat on the head from that sot you let him believe was his father.” He had an uncomfortable thought. “Tyrion almost died because of this bloody dagger. If he knew the whole thing was Joffrey’s work, that might be why . . .”

    “I don’t care why,” Cersei said. 

 

Quote

Her first response is to deflect any suspicion of her and towards Robert. When Tyrion points the obvious thing that does indeed sound like Robert, Cersei jumps on it, and all of sudden she "recalls" that Robert told Joffrey that a king must be brave "often". Wait what?!!! And then next she deflects and minimizes everything. The above conversation is as obvious a "lie" than an 8-year old almost caught at something he or she knows would make mom or dad very angry.

As children we had this saying "the one who smells it first, did it!"

So, was Cersei lying here? Was "a strong king acts boldly" something that Cersei would teach her children? Now let's check her POV regarding Tommen, especially when she compares him negatively to Joffrey. Well, in Cersei's chapter of aFfC we already hit the jackpot.

Was Cersei lying -- Good question!

Analogously, we might additionally ask ourselves, did Cersei lie to both Jaime and Tyrion about Joffrey potentially overhearing Robert saying the incriminating bit about what a mercy it is to kill injured children?  As you've shown in your argument, the advice given verbally and by modelling that behavior by example of a king acting boldly and never showing empathy or clemency was more likely attributable to Cersei than Robert.  Likewise, perhaps the idea of 'mercy-killing' a child stems from someone other than Robert.  Let's check the text to see if it may have been Cersei:

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Oh, not so unlucky as all that, surely," Tyrion said. The servant brought his plate. He ripped off a chunk of black bread.

Cersei was studying him warily. "What do you mean?"

Tyrion gave her a crooked smile. "Why, only that Tommen may get his wish. The maester thinks the boy may yet live." He took a sip of beer.

Myrcella gave a happy gasp, and Tommen smiled nervously, but it was not the children Tyrion was watching. The glance that passed between Jaime and Cersei lasted no more than a second, but he did not miss it. Then his sister dropped her gaze to the table. "That is no mercy. These northern gods are cruel to let the child linger in such pain."

 

Bingo.  The statement attributed to Robert again, for comparison:

‘We kill our horses when they break a leg, and our dogs when they go blind, but we are too weak to give the same mercy to crippled children...’

Following his sister's lead, Jaime then goes on to express a similar sentiment later in the conversation.  It's as if he's parroting his sister; however, the thought originated with Cersei:

Quote

Jaime Lannister regarded his brother thoughtfully with those cool green eyes. "Stark will never consent to leave Winterfell with his son lingering in the shadow of death."

"He will if Robert commands it," Tyrion said. "And Robert will command it. There is nothing Lord Eddard can do for the boy in any case."

"He could end his torment," Jaime said. "I would, if it were my son. It would be a mercy."

"I advise against putting that suggestion to Lord Eddard, sweet brother," Tyrion said. "He would not take it kindly."

"Even if the boy does live, he will be a cripple. Worse than a cripple. A grotesque. Give me a good clean death."

I don't really want to get into the relative merits and nuances of a 'familiarity with Valyrian steel' and the ellipsis pregnant with meaning when Joff stumbles over his words, and how stupid one has to be to hire a common catspaw who botches assassinations when direwolves appear from the shadows.  That's not my purpose here.  Frankly, I've had those discussions ad nauseum on another thread previously and it has come to bore me.  

What I'm reasonably sure about, however, is that she was in all likelihood lying to Jaime and Tyrion when she claimed the kids overheard Robert holding forth on the mercifulness (which really isn't a mercy, let's face it) of killing children, just as she was lying when she claimed they were schooled by Robert in how to be bold and cruel.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Ferocious Veldt Roarer said:

Yes, sounds like it. It's supposed to sound like it. Because the alternative would've been to admit, and to an enemy (more or less), that Joffrey the Perfect had fucked up big time. She could second-guess Joffrey when talking in private to family, not strangers.

Come on, it's not as if the High Sparrow is a person Sweet Cersei actually is honest and truthful with.

As @Lord Varys pointed out already and I agreed with.

[sweetsunray]

43 minutes ago, ravenous reader said:

I don't really want to get into the relative merits and nuances of a 'familiarity with Valyrian steel' and the ellipsis pregnant with meaning when Joff stumbles over his words, and how stupid one has to be to hire a common catspaw who botches assassinations when direwolves appear from the shadows.  That's not my purpose here.  Frankly, I've had those discussions ad nauseum on another thread previously and it has come to bore me.  

What I'm reasonably sure about, however, is that she was in all likelihood lying to Jaime and Tyrion when she claimed the kids overheard Robert holding forth on the mercifulness (which really isn't a mercy, let's face it) of killing children, just as she was lying when she claimed they were schooled by Robert in how to be bold and cruel.

Well, I know I have argued against Cersei being the instigator argument in the past before. In part taht was because of the mistaken impression you get from the conversation I discuss in the OP. Since clearly, Joffrey says something in favor of his father and certainly quoted Robert about Tywin hiding at the rrock, combined with Cersei's surprise (feigned or not), we are led by the nose to think that Joffrey took his cues from Robert over Cersei's. Exactly, because of the misrepresentation in the OP conversation we tend to attribute whatever Cersei claimed Robert to have said one time or another to Robert, completely overlooking the fact that Cersei's the one who actually talks, thinks and acts like that, not Robert. 

Since the conversation in the OP is the foundational scene to give us a partially wrong impression about Joffrey, I tackled it isolated first. And I wasn't working on "who planted the idea in Joff's head" for either Ned's beheading or Bran's assassination, but on mother-son relations, such as Cersei-Tommen and Cersei-Joffrey.

And yes, if we reassess our understanding of the convo in the OP between Joffrey-Tywin-Cersei, then it is far more likely, given the other conversations, that whenever Cersei says "Robert said something like it while kids overheard" we should seriously doubt that claim, and compare her claim with the evidence of her remarks made here and there.

Another thing to remark on is the fact that Cersei is quite convinced that Joffrey takes cues from her, not Robert. She knows him best. And Joffrey always behaved and acted in lign of Cersei's proposed teachings (fitting her own words to others and her personal thoughts). The mistake she made is not about missing out that Joffrey listened to his father, but that Joffrey wanted his father's admiration. Like the readers she equates the one he wants to be admired by = the one who's teachings he puts into practice. But the two aren't the same people in Joffrey. And that is most likely because Joffrey has his own inherent flaws that already lean towards those of Cersei's and you als absorb what you're taught more like a sponge, without always paying intention to the source. We can often attribute what our parents tried to teach us, but meanwhile are not often able to separate "dad taught me this" and "mom taught me this". We can though often remember whose approval or attention we yearned for, or if there was a fight who we emotionally blamed. But when it comes to intellecutally filtering who said what to us when we were at elemnatary age, it becomes a muddle. 

Cersei knows her opinion of Robert and the type of arguments to make to make his blood boil, so she's conscious of what she's teaching and argumenting in fights. When she sees Joffrey putting those into practice over and over again, she is convinced he does it because he is like her and wants her approval. And since she gives him her constant approval, and Robert does not, this picture is written in stone for her. But she is wrong about the latter. He actually wants his father's approval, not hers, exactly because his father did not approve of him. And the pity for Joffrey is that he lacks the abilities to gain his father's approval nor is taught the tools to gain that approval, while evidently Cersei made every effort possible to keep Joffrey away from Robert. It's actually quite likely that Joffrey not just blames Cersei for the fights between Cersei and Robert, but blames her for missing out on his father as well.

[Curled Finger]

12 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I'm always excited to read what Curled Finger has to say!

I agree with this. However, I do think that Joff sought his father's approval. While Joff may not have loved Robert I do think he wanted to be loved and applauded by Robert. But you're right, he did not love him. I think we see that with this comment after Robert dies.

There are several occurences where Joff speaks fondly of his father though. Most of them in regards to Robert's prowess as a warrior. 

This quote is different though. 

This quote is from SoS, Sansa III. So Robert has been dead for some time. Joff brings up Robert's whoring habits. While I think he is more interested in threatening Sansa than actually coupling with her, it is interesting he would bring up Robert in this instance. He is using it as a reason to justify potential sex with Sansa. 

Going back to Joff viewing Robert as the warrior king type... I've always wondered if Joff would have had more desire to become a warrior if Cersei was different or not around. Joff shows that he is proud of Robert's battlefield prowess yet doesn't want to put in the work himself (downplaying and disrespecting the practice the boys had in Winterfell, not doing any other sword work that I can recall). Is he lazy? Is it because Cersei has protected him from having to work at anything?  Both? Is he lazy because of Cersei?

Absolutely. Although the cat thing has always made me think Joff had a certain cruelty which he would have had without Cersei's help. Here is the cat thing I'm talking about:

 

Yup. And to further prove that Cersei has more influence over Joffrey, we see where Joff learned his views on hitting your wife...

 

I actually do think Cersei loves her kids. She just doesn't know how to be a parent. 

Always good to discuss things with you! 

It's always good to discuss thing with you, too OFAM!   You've certainly brought some valid text to refute me and we all know I suffer from a black and white world view concerning Cersei.   I'm aware of this now and am trying to open up to more sympathetic ideas.   I'd completely forgotten the story, the real story behind Robert hitting Joffrey.    Joffrey's always been a miserable person and I do tend to take a little nature over nurture approach with him.   Still, it's hard for me to imagine Robert hitting a kid over this particular crime.   Is this the worst thing Joffrey did in his early youth?   I'm thinking about the possible flip side of Joffrey simply being a little boy who wanted to see the kittens.   Yes, it's awful, but maybe not cruel or evil--would depend on how old Joff was I imagine, and his motives for opening the cat.   Ick.   

[Lord Varys]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The cat incident and his cruelties, such as fighting to the death, shows his levels of affective empathy and emotional scala are very very low. This imo is not just nurture, since Tommen and Myrcella grew up around the same disastrous marriage, and sound like normally aware kids (in comparison to what can be expected at their ages). So, Joffrey didn't have much on that account to begin with. And that's why he fails to understand that his father was overall an understanding king not like to meet out harsh punishments when things went wrong. And why I agree that Joffrey didn't "love" Robert. But he would still desire Robert's approval, admiration and attention. We associate these with "love", but they don't have to be. And here it's not Joffrey paying attention to Robert, but what someone else can give Joffrey.

I think you are making too much of that cat incident. I just recently got reminded how common a practice it was over in the last century to drown young kittens you didn't want in your farm or your home. Animal cruelty is inevitably a part of the medieval environment Joffrey is living in. That doesn't mean every child has to cut open a cat to check on the kittens but it is also not necessarily a sign that means we have to be too concerned about.

Joffrey could very well have seen (and gotten over) the fact that cows, pigs, chickens, and many other animals are slaughtered in front of his eyes so that they have something to eat by the time he killed that cat. And while some people have kittens in Westeros (like Tommen) there would be a lot of half-wild cats everybody saw as a nuisance to be rid off, not as living creatures that deserve compassion and kindness.

Robert's reaction sort of suggests that this wasn't something you routinely did but we don't know what triggered his harsh reaction. The fact that Joff had killed the cat or the fact that he had brought the kittens he had cut out of the body to his father? That was a disgusting thing to do but presumably Joff didn't understand that this was wrong. Could he have learned it if his father had explained it to him? I think he could.

Joff is essentially a pretty dumb and cowardly boy despite his size and his potential step into Jaime's shoes in the practice yard. He is no second Maegor the Cruel, or at least not yet.

The whole Sansa issue should be seen as something that developed from his humiliation at the hands of Arya in front of Sansa. That made him a laughingstock in the eyes of his future bride. Now, if Cersei and Robert had both pressed the children to make peace thereafter and if Cersei had not, presumably, been against the Stark marriage from the start (most likely in the wake of Ned's appointment as Hand she was against things could have cooled down thereafter.

Later on Sansa becomes the only Stark Joff can get his hands on after he executed Ned and could not get to Robb. It is hardly surprising that he continues to humiliate her.