Why couldn't Steffon Baratheon find a bride for Rhaegar?

[Lady bonehead]

This always seemed to me like a brilliant notion on Aerys's part: get Valyrian blood into the bloodline without incest, make a foreign alliance, and avoid alienating his own lords by picking one girl over another (which he might have cared about in his saner moments).  So what went wrong?  It seems strange that there was no suitable girl out there whose parents wouldn't mind her becoming queen of Westeros!  Has there been any speculation about this?

[Curled Finger]

It's not a bad question at all.   From what I gathered people who spent time around Rhaegar when he was little thought he was peculiar, bookish, melancholy--you know all the rock star qualities.   Maybe Stannis is most like Steffon?   If that's the case Steffon just didn't like women in general and therefore sabotaged the plot.   Aerys was nuts and maybe he gave Steffon unreasonable qualities to search out?  Perhaps Rhaegar was already of a mind to marry Elia and took Steffon into his confidence?   

Look at the women we know of who were available: Cersei (7 help the poor bastard), Cat (do I really have to say it?), Ashara (who wants a purple eyed Targ with black hair?), Selyse (mustache & all), Barbrey Ryswell (Gads).   I don't believe there were any Tyrell or Baratheon women, but there was Melora Hightower who would have been PERFECT for Rhaegar, but a Hightower still.    Bad juju.   Really, Elia Martell was the best match on multiple fronts for multiple reasons.  

I know I left Lyanna Stark off the list.   She was only 12 or 13 when Rhaegar was married off.   That was probably just too young.   And she was already promised to that Baratheon punk.  

I have always thought that because Rhaegar was so danged old when he finally married that he was waiting on a sister and simply ran out of time.   

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

5 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

It's not a bad question at all.   From what I gathered people who spent time around Rhaegar when he was little thought he was peculiar, bookish, melancholy--you know all the rock star qualities.   Maybe Stannis is most like Steffon?   If that's the case Steffon just didn't like women in general and therefore sabotaged the plot.   Aerys was nuts and maybe he gave Steffon unreasonable qualities to search out?  Perhaps Rhaegar was already of a mind to marry Elia and took Steffon into his confidence?   

Look at the women we know of who were available: Cersei (7 help the poor bastard), Cat (do I really have to say it?), Ashara (who wants a purple eyed Targ with black hair?), Selyse (mustache & all), Barbrey Ryswell (Gads).   I don't believe there were any Tyrell or Baratheon women, but there was Melora Hightower who would have been PERFECT for Rhaegar, but a Hightower still.    Bad juju.   Really, Elia Martell was the best match on multiple fronts for multiple reasons.  

I know I left Lyanna Stark off the list.   She was only 12 or 13 when Rhaegar was married off.   That was probably just too young.   And she was already promised to that Baratheon punk.  

I have always thought that because Rhaegar was so danged old when he finally married that he was waiting on a sister and simply ran out of time.   

What exactly is wrong with Catelyn Tully? Was she not considered beautiful in Universe amd was she not a loyal wife to Eddard? However, historically the Targs only married a few non Targaryen families, and perhaps Aerys felt their were no good options. Because of his fued with Tywin, Cersei was out of the question, and I would guess there were no Velaryon's of marriagable age (since this was a common go to). The Martells, Hightowers, and Tyrells seem the only real options for acceptable matches. As far as to the OP's question, I would guess that Aerys's instructions were too specific. Perhaps the families he named had no women of marriagable age or perhaps they were already wed or maybe he only named one or two families who needed to make alliances in Lys and could not waste a marriage on Westeros. I doubt Steffon wanted to fail in his quest, but I also sense he would have been very exact in following the details that Aerys had given him. There is also the somewhat sinister idea that Steffon was involved in Rickard Stark's southern ambitions and purposely failed for some reason or another (keep lys out of the war for example)

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I doubt we can assume he even considered the majority of Westerosi High Born Maidens. He didn't want the daughter of a vassal for Rhaegar. It seems he was dead set on a sister wife. But that no matter how hard he and Rhaella tried this just wasn't happening. Hense why he was married a bit later in life than is usual. 

Lys was an effort at getting a wife of Valyrian blood, whom Aerys could tell himself was equally worthy to be consort to Rhaegar as a Targaryen would be.  But I think that in Lys Steffon encountered a lack of eligible Lyseni maids of high enough birth and certain enough blood lines.

I thought it interesting that he was not also told to search Volantis for a bride. As those behind the walls their boast Valyrian blood too.

And so Elia was the best choice, as is pointed out. politically a Hightower was a no go. And all the others had no Valyrian blood at all.   

[Lord Varys]

The best explanation is that Steffon had indeed great difficulties to find a Volantene girl of pure-blooded Valyrian ancestry whose parents were willing to marry her to some barbarian king at the far end of the world.

First there has to be kept in mind that it is very likely that the Old Blood continues to practice incest. just as the Targaryens do. That would mean that only spare daughters would be available to marry outside the family. And those few spare daughters of impeccable birth Steffon might have been interested in on behalf of Aerys might have been not available as brides for the son of the so-called 'Mad King'.

You should keep in mind that Volantis is pretty far away from Westeros, and very much keeping the old Valyrian traditions alive. They practice slavery, they see themselves as heirs of the Old Freehold. There is no reason to believe they would be all that keen to sell one of their daughters to the heirs of dragonless dragonlord house which had stepped as low as setting itself up as the rulers of some barbaric kingdom.

Just as the Emperors of Byzantium had little interest in the middle ages to marry their daughters to the likes of Charlemagne and his successors.

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What exactly is wrong with Catelyn Tully? Was she not considered beautiful in Universe amd was she not a loyal wife to Eddard? However, historically the Targs only married a few non Targaryen families, and perhaps Aerys felt their were no good options. Because of his fued with Tywin, Cersei was out of the question, and I would guess there were no Velaryon's of marriagable age (since this was a common go to). The Martells, Hightowers, and Tyrells seem the only real options for acceptable matches. As far as to the OP's question, I would guess that Aerys's instructions were too specific. Perhaps the families he named had no women of marriagable age or perhaps they were already wed or maybe he only named one or two families who needed to make alliances in Lys and could not waste a marriage on Westeros. I doubt Steffon wanted to fail in his quest, but I also sense he would have been very exact in following the details that Aerys had given him. There is also the somewhat sinister idea that Steffon was involved in Rickard Stark's southern ambitions and purposely failed for some reason or another (keep lys out of the war for example)

I agree with nearly everything you laid out.   There was some very strange intrigue going on at the time Rhaegar came of age to well after he married Elia.  Maybe I should expand that to include Rhaegar's birth?   His entire short life was a strange time.   I would think that if Aerys were to take a Westerosi noblewoman it would have been the daughter of his Hand or in fact a Princess.   I think you're right that Aerys was dead set on Rhaegar having a wife of "the old blood".  Even if Steffon was involved in the "Southron Ambitions" plot (and I think he definitely was), he had no daughter to offer.   Sinister?   Interesting.    Tell you what, let's not argue about Cat or Southron Ambitions out of respect for this topic.   I hope to meet up with you in another topic that may cover either or both.   

[devilish]

19 hours ago, Lady bonehead said:

This always seemed to me like a brilliant notion on Aerys's part: get Valyrian blood into the bloodline without incest, make a foreign alliance, and avoid alienating his own lords by picking one girl over another (which he might have cared about in his saner moments).  So what went wrong?  It seems strange that there was no suitable girl out there whose parents wouldn't mind her becoming queen of Westeros!  Has there been any speculation about this?

I think it was a stupid idea. Without their dragons the Targs needed all the help they could get. Once crap hits fan who would show up to defend them?

[Lady bonehead]

1 hour ago, devilish said:

I think it was a stupid idea. Without their dragons the Targs needed all the help they could get. Once crap hits fan who would show up to defend them?

The thing is is, the crap should never have hit the fan.  There was tremendous support for the institution of the monarchy at all levels, even after Aerys started acting wacky.  The real irony of Robert's Rebellion is that nobody (Robert, Ned, Tywin, Rhaegar) really wanted the throne itself.

[devilish]

43 minutes ago, Lady bonehead said:

The thing is is, the crap should never have hit the fan.  There was tremendous support for the institution of the monarchy at all levels, even after Aerys started acting wacky.  The real irony of Robert's Rebellion is that nobody (Robert, Ned, Tywin, Rhaegar) really wanted the throne itself.

The Targs rule rotated around dragons. Dragons were the reason why the Targs conquered the land and why they couldn't bother marrying their subjects or choose a land which was better then the lousy Crown lands. Once the dragons became extinct they were on borrowed time. Sure Westeros was stronger and richer as one kingdom and that's the reason why the Targs heads weren't put on a spike the day the last dragon died. But soon enough a king will piss off his wardens or a warden will be smarter and more ambitious than the Targ king and the Targ dynasty would end.

Marrying within the powerful families was a must. Needless to say that if Rhaegar married Cersei, the Targ dynasty would still be ruling at this point

[Magnar, P.I.]

12 hours ago, Lord of Raventree Hall said:

What exactly is wrong with Catelyn Tully? Was she not considered beautiful in Universe amd was she not a loyal wife to Eddard? However, historically the Targs only married a few non Targaryen families, and perhaps Aerys felt their were no good options. Because of his fued with Tywin, Cersei was out of the question, and I would guess there were no Velaryon's of marriagable age (since this was a common go to). The Martells, Hightowers, and Tyrells seem the only real options for acceptable matches. As far as to the OP's question, I would guess that Aerys's instructions were too specific. Perhaps the families he named had no women of marriagable age or perhaps they were already wed or maybe he only named one or two families who needed to make alliances in Lys and could not waste a marriage on Westeros. I doubt Steffon wanted to fail in his quest, but I also sense he would have been very exact in following the details that Aerys had given him. There is also the somewhat sinister idea that Steffon was involved in Rickard Stark's southern ambitions and purposely failed for some reason or another (keep lys out of the war for example)

Are you kidding? Cat was terrible! Here's a few reasons why:

-She took out her bitterness and jealousy on poor innocent Jon for years, even though she forgives Ned 100%. 

-She begged Ned's brother Brandon not to kill Littlefinger when they were dueling over her. A nice thing to do, yes, but once LF rapes Sansa I think we'll see the error in that fit of mercy.

-She assumed Tyrion was guilty despite having absolutely no proof, then kidnapped him, starting the War of the Five Kings before Ned          could depose Cersei and cover his own ass. 

-She (helped) save Bran, yes, but then ditches him and her other kids so she can go make out with Ned in KL. 

-She's too dumb to see Walder Frey's trap coming, even though she repeatedly warns Robb what a dick Frey is. When the trap springs shut she proves herself worthless to the last, only able to kill Walder Frey's bastard simpleton son, making Lord Frey laugh. 

-She essentially knights Brienne (which is cool), but then dies and becomes Lady Stoneheart and then tries to execute Brienne even though she's still just following Cat's orders.

To sum up, she started the War of the Five Kings prematurely, which means she's essentially to blame for the death of Ned, Robb, and countless thousands of others. Even the stuff she did right, like saving Bran and taking on Brienne, she completely fucks up in the end. I found her POV chapters to be the most tedious and annoying, only redeeming themselves by giving us insight into other character's stories. Through her biased perspective we watch Iron Throne claimants Robb, Renly and Stannis, and uncover some clues as to Lysa and Littlefingers' backstory. As a character, Cat fails to redeem herself in any meaningful way that I can recall.

You ask what's wrong with her. I ask you, what's right with her?

[King Ned Stark]

I'm not so sure that Aerys wasn't trying to undermine Rhaegar, or at least keep him from garnering more support.  It seems like a plausible excuse, a bride of the blood of Old Valyria, and quite possibly could be the truth.  As others have said, marrying Rhaegar to a daughter of a powerful lord would have solidified their support, but to Rhaegar and not the king himself.

Viserys was born in 276, IIRC, so Aerys would not be overly worried about the continuation of the Targaryen dynasty.  A year or so later, Aerys was taken during the Defiance of Duskendale.  The World Book states that after Duskendale the Aerys grew ever more suspicious of Tywin and Rhaegar, believing they planned to storm the Dun Fort so the Darklyns would execute the king, and then marry Cersei.  Not long after Duskendale, he sends Steffon to find Rhaegar a bride, across the Narrow Sea, which would bring him very little in terms of an alliance, or solidifying support in Westeros.

Even marrying Rhaegar to Elia could have been a kind of way to stunt Rhaegar's influence.  If Aerys did plan to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys is heir, then marrying his eldest son to a woman of known "delicacy" could have been a way to keep Rhaegar from having heirs of his own, making the idea of disinheriting Rhaegar easier to achieve.  After all, why did Tywin deny Elia's hand to Jaime?  Why was the second daughter of Hoster more desirable than the eldest daughter of Martell?  Geography, possibly.  Or is it possible Tywin was shrewd enough to see the frailty of Elia, and was worried about her producing heirs for Jaime?

[1000th Lord Commander]

The other thing that no one seems to have mentioned is the fact that pure Valyrian blood is becoming more and more rare in the world. Volantis and Lys seem to have a bit, but in Lys they are mainly whores, and you would imagine that a pureblood daughter of Volantis would be a valuable prize. (See how many people want Dany 20 years later) Chuck in factors like age and virginity, and I'm not surprised they couldn't find someone.

[Curled Finger]

5 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

I'm not so sure that Aerys wasn't trying to undermine Rhaegar, or at least keep him from garnering more support.  It seems like a plausible excuse, a bride of the blood of Old Valyria, and quite possibly could be the truth.  As others have said, marrying Rhaegar to a daughter of a powerful lord would have solidified their support, but to Rhaegar and not the king himself.

Viserys was born in 276, IIRC, so Aerys would not be overly worried about the continuation of the Targaryen dynasty.  A year or so later, Aerys was taken during the Defiance of Duskendale.  The World Book states that after Duskendale the Aerys grew ever more suspicious of Tywin and Rhaegar, believing they planned to storm the Dun Fort so the Darklyns would execute the king, and then marry Cersei.  Not long after Duskendale, he sends Steffon to find Rhaegar a bride, across the Narrow Sea, which would bring him very little in terms of an alliance, or solidifying support in Westeros.

Even marrying Rhaegar to Elia could have been a kind of way to stunt Rhaegar's influence.  If Aerys did plan to disinherit Rhaegar and name Viserys is heir, then marrying his eldest son to a woman of known "delicacy" could have been a way to keep Rhaegar from having heirs of his own, making the idea of disinheriting Rhaegar easier to achieve.  After all, why did Tywin deny Elia's hand to Jaime?  Why was the second daughter of Hoster more desirable than the eldest daughter of Martell?  Geography, possibly.  Or is it possible Tywin was shrewd enough to see the frailty of Elia, and was worried about her producing heirs for Jaime?

What an intriguing take on things.   I got the distinct feeling that Aerys disapproved of the Elia match.  That Rhaegar chose Elia for his own reasons.   I'm sure he had reasons for everything he did.   Elia was only a princess, but the only princess in all Westeros at the time.   Jamie was the heir to Casterly Rock whereas Elia was fairly far down the line of succession in her homeland.   Looks like Lysa was the only available noblewoman in the realm at the time, but I'm doubtful that Tywin would have allowed Jamie to "marry down" to a 2nd daughter.   I guess there was all those alliances trying to happen at the time and old Hoster Tully sure seems to be a mover and shaker.  Maybe Tywin was just going along with the courtly visits as it seems were customary.  After all, he had a very hot property in Cersei as 1 of the very few eligible women at the time.   Odd those Southron Ambitions never seemed to reach Dorne.  

[Lord Wraith]

Well I always enjoyed the theory that Oberyn got to all the Volentene noble ladies during his exile. One of his bastards is from the noblest blood of old Volantis after all. 

[King Ned Stark]

2 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

What an intriguing take on things.   I got the distinct feeling that Aerys disapproved of the Elia match.  That Rhaegar chose Elia for his own reasons.   I'm sure he had reasons for everything he did.   Elia was only a princess, but the only princess in all Westeros at the time.   Jamie was the heir to Casterly Rock whereas Elia was fairly far down the line of succession in her homeland.   Looks like Lysa was the only available noblewoman in the realm at the time, but I'm doubtful that Tywin would have allowed Jamie to "marry down" to a 2nd daughter.   I guess there was all those alliances trying to happen at the time and old Hoster Tully sure seems to be a mover and shaker.  Maybe Tywin was just going along with the courtly visits as it seems were customary.  After all, he had a very hot property in Cersei as 1 of the very few eligible women at the time.   Odd those Southron Ambitions never seemed to reach Dorne.  

Yeah, the Southron Ambitions muddies things up a bit, was it actually a thing, was Tywin involved or trying to get into the power bloc?  For some reason, it always struck me as peculiar that Tywin would consider Lysa "worthy" of Jaime, considering his arrogance.  Maybe it could be chalked up as Rickard struck first with Catelyn, dunno?  

I do understand why he withheld Cersei from a prince of Dorne, he wanted the prince of Dragonstone, after all.  Perhaps I am biased because Lysa turned out to be so crazy, and perhaps she was a lot more normal when she was younger and Tywin and Jaime visited.

As I said, it always seemed odd to me, and then the World Book came out and it seemed to me that the rift between Aerys and Rhaegar was much wider than perhaps much of the fan base thinks, and perhaps I'm wrong on that.  

However, it was striking to me that Tywin would blunder so greatly to say, "perhaps they will (kill Aerys) and perhaps they won't, but if they do, we have a better king right here," and raised his hand indicating Rhaegar.  I have to believe that there was at least one Aerys sycophant in that war council tent that told the king that, and told him of Rhaegar's reaction, which seemed to be not much of a reaction at all.  

Everything starts to sour after the defiance, and I believe that Aerys was afraid of Rhaegar's popularity and Tywin's power, and afraid that they were in cahoots.  I think that most of the fallout after the defiance and up until the rebellion started was a result of Rhaegar and Aerys's chess match, each jockeying for influence.

[Lord Wraith]

3 hours ago, King Ned Stark said:

Yeah, the Southron Ambitions muddies things up a bit, was it actually a thing, was Tywin involved or trying to get into the power bloc?  For some reason, it always struck me as peculiar that Tywin would consider Lysa "worthy" of Jaime, considering his arrogance.  Maybe it could be chalked up as Rickard struck first with Catelyn, dunno?  

I do understand why he withheld Cersei from a prince of Dorne, he wanted the prince of Dragonstone, after all.  Perhaps I am biased because Lysa turned out to be so crazy, and perhaps she was a lot more normal when she was younger and Tywin and Jaime visited.

As I said, it always seemed odd to me, and then the World Book came out and it seemed to me that the rift between Aerys and Rhaegar was much wider than perhaps much of the fan base thinks, and perhaps I'm wrong on that.  

However, it was striking to me that Tywin would blunder so greatly to say, "perhaps they will (kill Aerys) and perhaps they won't, but if they do, we have a better king right here," and raised his hand indicating Rhaegar.  I have to believe that there was at least one Aerys sycophant in that war council tent that told the king that, and told him of Rhaegar's reaction, which seemed to be not much of a reaction at all.  

Everything starts to sour after the defiance, and I believe that Aerys was afraid of Rhaegar's popularity and Tywin's power, and afraid that they were in cahoots.  I think that most of the fallout after the defiance and up until the rebellion started was a result of Rhaegar and Aerys's chess match, each jockeying for influence.

I think Tywin was playing the various groups against each other and trying to find the best deal  between Southern Ambitions faction,  the King's faction and the Prince's faction. 

[Stormking902]

The answer is simple Oberyn Martell........... High borns from Essos heard Eli was in the running for Rheagars wife and out of pure fear turned down Steffons very nice offer. Oberyn is Westetos Chuck Norris 

[Samantha Stark]

I like the idea that Steffon sabotaged it.

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 1/24/2017 at 4:59 AM, Magnar, P.I. said:

Are you kidding? Cat was terrible! Here's a few reasons why:

-She took out her bitterness and jealousy on poor innocent Jon for years, even though she forgives Ned 100%. 

-She begged Ned's brother Brandon not to kill Littlefinger when they were dueling over her. A nice thing to do, yes, but once LF rapes Sansa I think we'll see the error in that fit of mercy.

-She assumed Tyrion was guilty despite having absolutely no proof, then kidnapped him, starting the War of the Five Kings before Ned          could depose Cersei and cover his own ass. 

-She (helped) save Bran, yes, but then ditches him and her other kids so she can go make out with Ned in KL. 

-She's too dumb to see Walder Frey's trap coming, even though she repeatedly warns Robb what a dick Frey is. When the trap springs shut she proves herself worthless to the last, only able to kill Walder Frey's bastard simpleton son, making Lord Frey laugh. 

-She essentially knights Brienne (which is cool), but then dies and becomes Lady Stoneheart and then tries to execute Brienne even though she's still just following Cat's orders.

To sum up, she started the War of the Five Kings prematurely, which means she's essentially to blame for the death of Ned, Robb, and countless thousands of others. Even the stuff she did right, like saving Bran and taking on Brienne, she completely fucks up in the end. I found her POV chapters to be the most tedious and annoying, only redeeming themselves by giving us insight into other character's stories. Through her biased perspective we watch Iron Throne claimants Robb, Renly and Stannis, and uncover some clues as to Lysa and Littlefingers' backstory. As a character, Cat fails to redeem herself in any meaningful way that I can recall.

You ask what's wrong with her. I ask you, what's right with her?

She was an excellent mother and wife and daughter and sister who spent her entire life trying to help those around her and doing her best for her family. She often puts others before herself. Show me one place in the book where she thinks, "What do I want?" Does she make mistakes? Yes. However unless you are a godlike mistakeless person, maybe you have also made mistakes. Catelyn is absolutely my favorite character, and that is mainly because how well she keeps it together even as her world is crashing down around her. So now lets refute each of your points in turn: 

1. Bitterness at Jon : I have the absolutely least defense of this, however this is common even today with modern stepparents. People resent what represents disrespect to their honor. It is a flaw, and the one part of her personality I do not like. HOWEVER, considering fan favorite Tyrion raped a girl...if fans can forgive rape, I mean Jesus. 

2. Sparing Littlefinger - Really? I hate Littlefinger, but sparing a childhood friend is not a weakness. If he rapes Sansa, which I doubt he will, that is not on Catelyn. Really man, really?

3. This is a common one, Tyrion abduction - First of all, the war was coming, abduction or no abduction. You think if Eddard had put Stannis on the throne, the Lannisters would have just let him? Secondly, again, she trusted her childhood friend. Then she trusted her sister. Things could have worked fine if she had gone to Winterfell...perhaps, but then again maybe not. Capturing Tyrion could have saved Eddards life...if Lysa wasn't such an idiot. Again, I trust my childhood friends and my sister. Perhaps you do not, but hey, I guess we all cannot be omnipresent gods who know the eventual outcomes of our decisions and do not trust anyone.

4. Going to King's Landing - She went to help her husband, then she turns to help Robb. She sends what she thinks are capable men to protect her younger children. So do you hate Robb too? Or Eddard? Or is it only women you hate when they leave their children in others care? I am sorry, but my mother worked for a living, sometimes that means she worked more than my dad. She left me in my father's care, or sometimes the care of my grandparents or babysitters. If some murderer had came in and murdered my babysitters, would you think, wow that woman abandonded her children,... or would you think, wow its awful thise babysitters got murdered? If my mom was there, could she have saved me? Maybe...or maybe not. Noboday can really know. However, I know one thing absolutely, blaming a woman for having a job and leaving appropriate gaurdains for her children is NOT cool. The fact that this argument is so prevalant amongst the community makes me shocked and appalled. I hope you are just repeating what you heard and do not actually think women should take full blame for every unforseen circumstance where their children are concerned. 

5. Walder Frey - She's less clueless than anyone else in Robb's camp including Robb himself.

6. Lady Stoneheart - Lady Stoneheart is the dried up remnants of a semi decayed mind, not Catelyn. 

In conclusion, yes Catelyn has flaws, but so does everyone. Arya kills a deserter from the Night's Watch because.... Jon cannot make peace with Boltons and has left the Watch in disarray in the time they need his leadership the most. Robb couldnt control his libido for one night and killed one of his most important bannermen. Tyrion raped a slave and killed Shae in cold blood (it was pretty dark). Bran has no issues waring into Hodor despite the fact he knows Hodor does not like it. Daenerys murdered 163 people to make a point and played with witchcraft which killed her child...maybe. Brienne may/may not betray Jaime. Jaime threw a chid out of a window. Eddard lied to his wife and children for years and years. Theon...wow...a long list of stuff. Davos keeps walking into traps. Stannis killed his own brother. Oberyn waited too long to kill the Mountain and died for it. Sansa told on Eddard to Cersei. Do I really need to keep going? People are flawed, but for some reason the community seems to blow up Catelyn's flaws while giving characters like Tywin, Stannis, or Tyrion a free pass. I am sorry if I got a little heated about the childcare part, but as a man who teaches kindergarten and elementary school, I am getting fed up with the blaming of mothers for all their children's problems. It's not Catelyn's fault that Rodrick Cassel fell right into Theon's trap or that Theon (who actually if Robb had taken her advice) would have never even been in Winterfell. And it is certainly not a flaw to try to help your husband or older son while leaving your younger sons in what you think is absolute safety of the North. Eddard was in danger. Robb was in danger. She could have never known any more than anyone knew, that Theon would attack Winterfell. 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

On 1/23/2017 at 11:43 PM, Curled Finger said:

I agree with nearly everything you laid out.   There was some very strange intrigue going on at the time Rhaegar came of age to well after he married Elia.  Maybe I should expand that to include Rhaegar's birth?   His entire short life was a strange time.   I would think that if Aerys were to take a Westerosi noblewoman it would have been the daughter of his Hand or in fact a Princess.   I think you're right that Aerys was dead set on Rhaegar having a wife of "the old blood".  Even if Steffon was involved in the "Southron Ambitions" plot (and I think he definitely was), he had no daughter to offer.   Sinister?   Interesting.    Tell you what, let's not argue about Cat or Southron Ambitions out of respect for this topic.   I hope to meet up with you in another topic that may cover either or both.   

I would like that as well, and after reading your message, I will not respond on Catlyn anymore, lol.