If Bran can effect the past

[Macgregor of the North]

@devilish thumbs up for the comedy value, that shit was funny. In every single scenario you mention you likely end up in hospital needing a wired jaw but never mind all that lol, let's go back to the books yeah?. 

When you said earlier about Aerys rambling "burn them all", you do remember that happens in the mummers version, not the book version. In the book version he has perfectly understandable discussions with Rossart and his Pyromancers and also Jaime on the topic, not mad ramblings.

So what exactly do you propose happens with book Aerys (not show Aerys) in regards to how he's sent messages in the form of voices in his head and he misinterprets them.

Explain it without all the nonsense and keep it as brief as possible while getting the point across please. 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Macgregor of the North said:

@devilish thumbs up for the comedy value, that shit was funny. In every single scenario you mention you likely end up in hospital needing a wired jaw but never mind all that lol, let's go back to the books yeah?. 

When you said earlier about Aerys rambling "burn them all", you do remember that happens in the mummers version, not the book version. In the book version he has perfectly understandable discussions with Rossart and his Pyromancers and also Jaime on the topic, not mad ramblings.

So what exactly do you propose happens with book Aerys (not show Aerys) in regards to how he's sent messages in the form of voices in his head and he misinterprets them.

Explain it without all the nonsense and keep it as brief as possible while getting the point across please. 

That’s not a very mature way to discuss things….anyway. 

Those quotes do not suggest madness which doesn’t surprise me at all. Aerys was a contradicting person who seem going from one extreme to another. There are plenty of examples when one could conclude that he was mad or he suffered from paranoia only for the man to do something completely out of the blue shattering that idea completely

We’re talking of a man who on one hand would take so many precautions to make sure he is safe only to then taking reckless decisions like going to Duskendale lightly guarded or pissing off Tywin on every occasion. His behaviour was erratic with so many people. Take his wife an example. He was initially compassionate with her only to then lock her up for suspicions that she was seeing other men. When his son died, he first killed his wet nurse, than his mistress, than he blamed it on himself. Same thing can be said about his relationship with Tywin and Rhaegar. Aerys first appoints the former as hand of the king only to spend his entire time trying to find ways how to piss him off. Same thing can be said about the latter. He spend so much time trying to keep the crown prince under check and when finally the prince commits the perfect brainfart which had the potential to have him exiled with the backing of most of the kingdom, he kills off potential allies causing Robert Rebellion.

There are plenty of mental illnesses that can explain what Aerys had including bipolar disorder. However we’re talking about fantasy here and I doubt that such key changing event can be explained simply by stating that Aerys had mania depression. I am not saying that I am 100% certain that Bloodraven had messed Aerys up.#

All I am saying is that 
a-    his reluctance to have Brandon messing with the past is suspicious. 
b-    Surely the man who had given the Targs everything including his very own reputation would have tried to do something to prevent the collapse of such dynasty if he could. 

[Macgregor of the North]

3 minutes ago, devilish said:

That’s not a very mature way to discuss things….anyway. 

Those quotes do not suggest madness which doesn’t surprise me at all. Aerys was a contradicting person who seem going from one extreme to another. There are plenty of examples when one could conclude that he was mad or he suffered from paranoia only for the man to do something completely out of the blue shattering that idea completely

We’re talking of a man who on one hand would take so many precautions to make sure he is safe only to then taking reckless decisions like going to Duskendale lightly guarded or pissing off Tywin on every occasion. His behaviour was erratic with so many people. Take his wife an example. He was initially compassionate with her only to then lock her up for suspicions that she was seeing other men. When his son died, he first killed his wet nurse, than his mistress, than he blamed it on himself. Same thing can be said about his relationship with Tywin and Rhaegar. Aerys first appoints the former as hand of the king only to spend his entire time trying to find ways how to piss him off. Same thing can be said about the latter. He spend so much time trying to keep the crown prince under check and when finally the prince commits the perfect brainfart which had the potential to have him exiled with the backing of most of the kingdom, he kills off potential allies causing Robert Rebellion.

There are plenty of mental illnesses that can explain what Aerys had including bipolar disorder. However we’re talking about fantasy here and I doubt that such key changing event can be explained simply by stating that Aerys had mania depression. I am not saying that I am 100% certain that Bloodraven had messed Aerys up.#

All I am saying is that 
a-    his reluctance to have Brandon messing with the past is suspicious. 
b-    Surely the man who had given the Targs everything including his very own reputation would have tried to do something to prevent the collapse of such dynasty if he could. 

You never quite answered my question there in regards to what you think went down with Aerys hearing voices in his head and him rambling about burning them all, which doesn't really happen in the books. 

[Greywater-Watch]

There is in my opinion no proof that Bloodraven and/or Bran Stark are able to communicate through weirwoods in real time. We have the examples of Theon in front of the weirwood tree in Winterfell (while he is there with Rosse Bolton's army), whispering to him (as Theon believes); maybe also the dream about Brienne, Jaime has when leaving Harrenhal (leaning his head on a weirwood stem).

Many on this Forum believe so though, I think it is worth considering. But doing more than just look into the past - I really cannot follow you there.

As already said: Bloodraven it is not possible. And it would sort of destoy the whole book (turn it incredible).

[Dorian Martell's son]

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Right, because Old Nan knows everything, and the Others called her on her cell phone and informed her of their plans.

Nana and patchface have been remarkably accurate for an old woman and a crazy person 

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Kill every living thing with no mercy? I hate to break it to you, but humans are pretty guilty of doing that all the time throughout history. For a good example, look at the Mongols, who would often wipe out entire cities because they thought the population was more useless than having the land for grazing. That doesn't make the Mongols pure evil. And even in the original long night, the entire world wasn't frozen. The specific example that we are given is that the Rhoyne was "frozen as far south as the joining of the Selhoru". If we assume Westeros was frozen as far south as the same latitude, that means Dorne wasn't even frozen in the long night.

So, wiping out whole cities isn't evil? And who are the mongols? Are they westerosi or Essosi? 
But in all seriousness, in the books, folks like Vargo and his companions, or Ser Gregor who show no mercy to anyone are pretty evil. Tywin, while ruthless, understands the need for mercy if a lasting peace is to be had.  
Now, if the westerosi do not have a reliable timeline from 8000, why would the Rhoynar have an accurate record as well, and why would you assume the long night would be evenly distributed over the planet, especially if the magic creating it was centered on a point in the extreme north of one single continent? 

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

GRRM has already recycled plots. Does that make him a mediocre author? I don't think so.

Examples? And according to this forum and the kool-aid here, writing anything that people have seen before would lower him to mediocre status 

14 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I think the Battle for the Dawn could happen, but only because mankind is being tricked into it via false prophecy and manipulation. My point about the onion was that Mel sees the world (and men) as black or white, in a story where everything is grey. She is also a religious zealot who burns people alive, something GRRM would hate. Since Mel is one of the main people pushing the AA prophecy, and she has been shown not to be credible, I think it detracts from the credibility of said prophecy.

I also think the battle for the dawn will happen, but because it is a recurring cycle that has happened over millions of years as a battle between the CTOF and the others. Thank you for the clarification about the onion, and yes, she is a zealot and part of the story is her realizing how wrong she is.  I have never thought the AA prophecy was "real."  In westeros there are relics and remnants of the the long night and the battle for the dawn that we the readers have seen. The wall, the watch, old records and testimony of the children. There is nothing, aside from stories about AA or his mythical flaming sword  

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

44 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Nana and patchface have been remarkably accurate for an old woman and a crazy person

That's true so far, but that doesn't mean Old Nan is necessarily right about everything

44 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

So, wiping out whole cities isn't evil? And who are the mongols? Are they westerosi or Essosi? 
But in all seriousness, in the books, folks like Vargo and his companions, or Ser Gregor who show no mercy to anyone are pretty evil. Tywin, while ruthless, understands the need for mercy if a lasting peace is to be had.

Lol, obviously the Dothraki are the Mongols (almond shaped eyes, nomadic, fight on horseback with a bow, etc). But yes, I would agree the people like Vargo and Ser Gregor are pretty evil. I would even argue that Tywin is pretty evil considering that time he drowned a large group of men, women, and children when they were already defeated and attempting to offer peace terms. But I don't think we have enough info yet on the Others in the current conflict to say they are evil. So far they have killed some people, and yes, they have done so without mercy, but in the context of a potentially full scale war, they haven't actually killed that many people. It could just be an initial incursion into the kingdoms of men to attempt to get leverage and then sue for peace. We simply don't know their intentions. Let's compare them to Tywin. Are the actions of the Others that we have seen in the current conflict so far really more evil than events like the destruction of the Reynes and Tarbecks or the RW? I don't think so.

44 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Examples? And according to this forum and the kool-aid here, writing anything that people have seen before would lower him to mediocre status   

Well relevant to this discussion, GRRM has written several stories about powerful/telepathic puppet masters or hive-minded races manipulating events and/or sending visions to make men kill each other or themselves, like Men of Greywater Station, And Seven Times Never Kill Man, Nightflyers, and A Song for Lya, and there is also the hive-minded Hrangans generally talked about in the Thousand Worlds universe. Obviously none of these stories have exactly the same plot, but he definitely reuses concepts like puppet masters controlling the events of the story and hive-minded telepathic races in conflict with humans. And in asoiaf, we are presented with the hive-minded weirnet that can send dreams to humans. Based on his other stories, I think it's more likely than not that these visions are meant to manipulate mankind, not to help them.

56 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Now, if the westerosi do not have a reliable timeline from 8000, why would the Rhoynar have an accurate record as well, and why would you assume the long night would be evenly distributed over the planet, especially if the magic creating it was centered on a point in the extreme north of one single continent? 

True, the Long Night may not have been evenly distributed, but regardless it didn't freeze the entire world. It didn't even freeze the area around Volantis. And we are told by maesters that for some reason there are no written records in Westeros from before the coming of the Andals. That doesn't mean we can't have written records in Essos. Somehow, the info presented about the Rhoyne being frozen to specifically that geographic location is known by maesters. I don't see any particular reason to doubt that piece of knowledge.

55 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I also think the battle for the dawn will happen, but because it is a recurring cycle that has happened over millions of years as a battle between the CTOF and the others. Thank you for the clarification about the onion, and yes, she is a zealot and part of the story is her realizing how wrong she is.  I have never thought the AA prophecy was "real."  In westeros there are relics and remnants of the the long night and the battle for the dawn that we the readers have seen. The wall, the watch, old records and testimony of the children. There is nothing, aside from stories about AA or his mythical flaming sword  

As far as we know, the Others have only come once before. So yeah the Battle for the Dawn probably happened once so far, but the COTF could have been responsible for that one too, or responsible for the Long Night happening in the first place. If culling human population was their goal, it was pretty effective. And we don't even know that another Long Night is happening in the current story. The original Long Night sounds like a cataclysmic event, where the sun wasn't visible for decades. The only thing we know now is that winter is coming, and it could just be a regular winter (regular for Planetos). And we don't even know that defeating the Others is what ended the Long Night. It could have just ended naturally, if it was some sort of climate-related thing like debris in the atmosphere blocking out the sun and taking many years to settle back down to the planet.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

1 hour ago, Greywater-Watch said:

There is in my opinion no proof that Bloodraven and/or Bran Stark are able to communicate through weirwoods in real time. We have the examples of Theon in front of the weirwood tree in Winterfell (while he is there with Rosse Bolton's army), whispering to him (as Theon believes); maybe also the dream about Brienne, Jaime has when leaving Harrenhal (leaning his head on a weirwood stem).

Many on this Forum believe so though, I think it is worth considering. But doing more than just look into the past - I really cannot follow you there.

As already said: Bloodraven it is not possible. And it would sort of destoy the whole book (turn it incredible).

Read Theon I TWOW. Bran and BR and almost certainly skinchanging the 2 ravens and observing the scene.

EDIT: I mean I guess that's just skinchanging animals far away, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "communicate through weirwoods in real time"

[Greywater-Watch]

21 hours ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Read Theon I TWOW. Bran and BR and almost certainly skinchanging the 2 ravens and observing the scene.

EDIT: I mean I guess that's just skinchanging animals far away, I'm not sure exactly what you meant by "communicate through weirwoods in real time"

I never had this idea. From your point of view: How much is "almost certainly" on a scale between 0 and 100?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

9 hours ago, Greywater-Watch said:

I never had this idea. From your point of view: How much is "almost certainly" on a scale between 0 and 100?

Well, for this specific example I'm going to give it a 95% chance that both ravens are being skinchanged and a 99% chance that at least one raven is being skinchanged by Bran. For the whole conversation they repeat words in a comical and intelligent manner, but the most important parts are when one of the ravens says "Theon" 2 different times. Here's one such time:

The memory left Theon writhing in his chains. "Let me down," he pleaded. "Just for a little while, then you can hang me up again." Stannis Baratheon looked up at him, but did not answer. "Tree," a raven cried. "Tree, tree, tree."

Then other bird said, "Theon," clear as day, as Asha came striding through the door.

So I suppose it's possible that someone taught that raven Theon's name at some point and it just happens to be saying Theon at that moment, but I think it's far more likely to be skinchanged by Bran.

[Greywater-Watch]

On ‎26‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 4:50 AM, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Well, for this specific example I'm going to give it a 95% chance that both ravens are being skinchanged and a 99% chance that at least one raven is being skinchanged by Bran. For the whole conversation they repeat words in a comical and intelligent manner, but the most important parts are when one of the ravens says "Theon" 2 different times. Here's one such time:

The memory left Theon writhing in his chains. "Let me down," he pleaded. "Just for a little while, then you can hang me up again." Stannis Baratheon looked up at him, but did not answer. "Tree," a raven cried. "Tree, tree, tree."

Then other bird said, "Theon," clear as day, as Asha came striding through the door.

So I suppose it's possible that someone taught that raven Theon's name at some point and it just happens to be saying Theon at that moment, but I think it's far more likely to be skinchanged by Bran.

Do you also think that Mormont's raven was skinchanged all the time he muttered words to Mormont and later to Jon Snow?

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

54 minutes ago, Greywater-Watch said:

Do you also think that Mormont's raven was skinchanged all the time he muttered words to Mormont and later to Jon Snow?

I think it's certainly possible, but that's a much more debatable question. You can make an argument that Mormont's raven was acting "normal" at least in the context of the story. But I think the ravens in the Theon chapter acted much more suspiciously.

[hitman47]

Bran could effect the past but he is not powerful enough