If Bran can effect the past

[KyLoMcf]

I know there are theories out there that Bran will go back in time and essentially become "Bran the builder" 

Building the wall and winterfall etc 

However, I have yet to see anyone come up with the slightly darker theory that he will at somepoint have to burn the "broken tower"  of Winterfell (which is said to have burned from a lightning strike) ensuring that it is abandoned, will be used by Jamie and Cersei to conspire and get nasty, For Bran to stumble across, essentially Bran would be crippling himself in order to make sure he gains his power. 

 

What do you think? 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I am working on the final part of my crazy theory at the moment, but I think I mentioned somewhere in the thread for part 1 that I think the end of ASOIAF will essentially be Bran making a choice between joining the weirnet, or taking over the weirnet and changing the past for the sake of those he loves. Unfortunately, in order to ensure that Bran actually still gets to the point in the first place where he has this power, he will have to choose to replay all the horrible shit that has happened in his life: getting crippled, the death of his parents and Robb, etc. One of the clues for this is this line from the books:

And now they are all gone. It was if some cruel god had reached down with a great hand and swept them all away, the girls to captivity, Jon to the Wall, Robb and Mother to war, King Robert and Father to their graves, and perhaps Uncle Benjen as well...

What if Bran himself is that cruel god in a sense? super dark...

[rotting sea cow]

7 hours ago, KyLoMcf said:

I know there are theories out there that Bran will go back in time and essentially become "Bran the builder" 

Building the wall and winterfall etc 

However, I have yet to see anyone come up with the slightly darker theory that he will at somepoint have to burn the "broken tower"  of Winterfell (which is said to have burned from a lightning strike) ensuring that it is abandoned, will be used by Jamie and Cersei to conspire and get nasty, For Bran to stumble across, essentially Bran would be crippling himself in order to make sure he gains his power. 

 

What do you think? 

I'm sure you mean affect the past.

Anyway, affecting the past means that you break the causality of events, changing the story via a butterfly effect, introducing circular arguments, and worse the possibility to always return and try to fix whatever went wrong. All these problems have been explored at nauseam in science fiction and as far as I can tell GRRM is not a scifi writer so it would be a dangerous road to take.  So, I hope he stays away from that.

 

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

1 hour ago, rotting sea cow said:

as far as I can tell GRRM is not a scifi writer

Dying of the Light, Windhaven, Nightflyers, Hunter's Run are all books (partially) written by GRRM, and are most definitely SciFi.
George most surely writes/wrote SciFi, however, I think that if timetravel is introduced, it will introduce us to the following principle.

Quote

The principle asserts that if an event exists that would cause a paradox or any "change" to the past whatsoever, then the probability of that event is zero. It would thus be impossible to create time paradoxes.

So the time-travel-to-change-the-past is hopefully out of the question. The trees remember, and show the events from the past to Bran, but he can not change these events.

[The Hoare]

Bloodraven tells Bran that the past can't be changed.

[Macgregor of the North]

I've had quite a few Bran/the past conversations before and the way i think GRRM will possibly do things is that Bloodraven is correct. Bran can not reach back and change the past how he sees fit. 

But we may read on page that Bran may actually be the direct cause of how something in history happened. I could see GRRM use something like a stable time loop where if Bran ever does "effect the past", he is not changing it but he always was the cause of it. 

Like Ned turning round when Bran whispers Winterfell for example, Bran always caused Ned to turn there as part of a stable time loop, that only ever happened once and Bran was always the cause of it.

Theres a cool theory that's a fine example where Bran actually causes Lyanna to name herself the Knight of the laughing tree after she prays to a Weirwood before she enters the Tourney and Brans face appears briefly on the tree smiling and laughing which prompts her to use that symbol. 

Its a theory of course but it highlights the example perfectly. Bran didn't reach back and "change" the past to how he wanted it to go, he was actually the cause of it. 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

I have to disagree with you guys here. As I point out in part 2 of my theory which I provided the link for, George has already written 3 stories where time travel exists and the timeline can actually be changed by affecting the past. Basically, the mechanic for time travel that he has written is there are "iterations" of the time line, and he avoids a paradox because your actions in the past affect the next iteration of the timeline, not the current one. So even if you were to hypothetically prevent your own existence, paradox avoided. The only question is, will this apply to asoiaf? I give it a 99.9% chance yes, but most people will disagree with me for no good reason. And yeah BR says the past cannot be changed, but he also clearly tricked Bran, Jojen, and Meera into traveling north to the cave and is effectively keeping them prisoner, so I see no good reason to trust that lying asshole. And even if he is telling the truth about his own powers, that doesn't mean Bran will necessarily have the same limitations.

[Dorian Martell's son]

15 hours ago, KyLoMcf said:

What do you think? 

If he can change the past he can go back in time, Warn his father about the Others, convince everyone to stock up on obsidian blades, prevent Ned from going to KL, prevent Sansa from marrying Joff, prevent Arya from heading to Braavos, Jon from joining the watch and all the wolves from Dying. Prevent everything with Robb and Theon., and prevent his falling so he can become a knight. In other words, we wouldn't have the story we read and we would have a happy ending and not a bittersweet ending.
Everyone who has theories about Bran time traveling are wrong. They have to ignore the part of the book where Bloodraven explicitly tells Bran it is impossible, and then the part where he shouts at his dad and Ned hears leaves rustle   

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

3 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

Everyone who has theories about Bran time traveling are wrong. They have to ignore the part of the book where Bloodraven explicitly tells Bran it is impossible, and then the part where he shouts at his dad and Ned hears leaves rustle   

Oh, OK, I'm glad you told me I'm wrong so I can abandon my theories and submit to your superior wisdom. Your 2 sentence argument totally convinced me. Oh wait, no it didn't, because your logic is terribly flawed.

1. Assuming time travel (if it exists) follows the same rules as all the other GRRM stories with time travel, if Bran changes the past so as to prevent himself getting crippled and going north, then he loses the ability to change the past, and the events will replay themselves, basically putting us back at square 1.

2. You obviously trust BR for some reason. How do you know he isn't lying? Or just plain wrong?

[Dorian Martell's son]

12 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Oh, OK, I'm glad you told me I'm wrong so I can abandon my theories and submit to your superior wisdom. Your 2 sentence argument totally convinced me. Oh wait, no it didn't, because your logic is terribly flawed.

1. Assuming time travel (if it exists) follows the same rules as all the other GRRM stories with time travel, if Bran changes the past so as to prevent himself getting crippled and going north, then he loses the ability to change the past, and the events will replay themselves, basically putting us back at square 1.

2. You obviously trust BR for some reason. How do you know he isn't lying? Or just plain wrong?

I am glad I can impart my wisdom to you 
1: If that is true then bran never travels into the past we have a paradox, then bran figure 8 loops between being the last greenseer and time traveling, undoing his injury, preventing his time traveling thus resulting in his injury.  B.O.R.I.N.G. Lets just have a plot that moves forward.
2: He isn't bloodraven anymore. He is the last Greenseer with access to every memory and experience from every greenseer, skinchanger and heart tree from the beginning of greensight.  He has to reason to lie. His purpose now is to train bran to fight the war ahead. If time traveling could make it so the war never happens, why not use it?  

[Scorpion92]

3 hours ago, Macgregor of the North said:

I've had quite a few Bran/the past conversations before and the way i think GRRM will possibly do things is that Bloodraven is correct. Bran can not reach back and change the past how he sees fit. 

But we may read on page that Bran may actually be the direct cause of how something in history happened. I could see GRRM use something like a stable time loop where if Bran ever does "effect the past", he is not changing it but he always was the cause of it. 

Like Ned turning round when Bran whispers Winterfell for example, Bran always caused Ned to turn there as part of a stable time loop, that only ever happened once and Bran was always the cause of it.

Theres a cool theory that's a fine example where Bran actually causes Lyanna to name herself the Knight of the laughing tree after she prays to a Weirwood before she enters the Tourney and Brans face appears briefly on the tree smiling and laughing which prompts her to use that symbol. 

Its a theory of course but it highlights the example perfectly. Bran didn't reach back and "change" the past to how he wanted it to go, he was actually the cause of it. 

Exactly my thoughts.

I think the most curious example would be Bran and Jaime. For example, if Bran was the one sending the visions to Mad King through his greenseer abilities, then he caused Jaime to kill the king and become known as Kingslayer. Once Jaime became Kingslayer, it affected his life tremendously and resulted in a life which made Jaime who he is. And "Kingslayer" Jaime was supposed to be the one to push Bran from the tower and ultimately be responsible for Bran opening his "third eye".

So basically "greenseer" Bran created Kingslayer Jaime, and Kingslayer Jaime created "greenseer" Bran, and loop goes in circles.

I see the same scenario where Bran might have been the cause of all this "prince that was promised" prophecies.

I am still surprised that people think Bran will not be a much darker character when it is all said and done. The stuff that he will be able to affect and control will make us question some of his actions, I believe. I will not be even surprised if he will be a big "behind-the-scenes" figure affecting the lives of his siblings and many other characters.

Like for example, with Arya, maybe Bran is the Many Faced God that sent visions to the original Faceless Man to create this organization which its true and only purpose in Bran's eyes would be to train his sister many centuries later prior Long Night and help her unlock warging abilities.

Or maybe even Bloodraven himself. Maybe Bran from the future affected Bloodraven's life so much so that he will end up in that cave Beyond the Wall to become younger Bran's mentor and help him become greenseer. Again, the loop. 

I guess we will have to wait till the end of the books, but I become more and more convinced as I re-read the books.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

31 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am glad I can impart my wisdom to you 
1: If that is true then bran never travels into the past we have a paradox, then bran figure 8 loops between being the last greenseer and time traveling, undoing his injury, preventing his time traveling thus resulting in his injury.  B.O.R.I.N.G. Lets just have a plot that moves forward.
2: He isn't bloodraven anymore. He is the last Greenseer with access to every memory and experience from every greenseer, skinchanger and heart tree from the beginning of greensight.  He has to reason to lie. His purpose now is to train bran to fight the war ahead. If time traveling could make it so the war never happens, why not use it?  

1. Not really a paradox per se, but yes it would probably play out in a "figure 8 loop" like you say and be boring. I agree. I don't think that's going to happen.

2. I agree he is not really BR anymore and that he has joined the weirnet yada yada, but that doesn't mean he has no reason to lie. You seem very confident in his "purpose" with little evidence to back it up. Personally, I think the greenseers in the weirnet are trying to actually cause the war, that's their whole plan. The Others are not their enemy; humans are their enemy. You know, the motherfuckers who historically enjoy cutting down all the weirwoods. Telling Bran the truth right away would defeat their whole purpose, because Bran would probably not be OK with that plan.

[Dorian Martell's son]

2 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

1. Not really a paradox per se, but yes it would probably play out in a "figure 8 loop" like you say and be boring. I agree. I don't think that's going to happen.

2. I agree he is not really BR anymore and that he has joined the weirnet yada yada, but that doesn't mean he has no reason to lie. You seem very confident in his "purpose" with little evidence to back it up. Personally, I think the greenseers in the weirnet are trying to actually cause the war, that's their whole plan. The Others are not their enemy; humans are their enemy. You know, the motherfuckers who historically enjoy cutting down all the weirwoods. Telling Bran the truth right away would defeat their whole purpose, because Bran would probably not be OK with that plan.

1: then we agree. Yay!

2: People seem to think he is doing all sorts of nefarious things with Zero evidence, so my "little" evidence, as in what is written in the book trumps  that zero.
Now,  as per the greenseers starting the war, this makes Zero sense. The others are the enemy of all living thing.
If the motherfuckers are the enemies, why make the pact with them on the isle of faces?  If the others were allies of the greenseers, why did the last hero seek out the CTOF for their help in defeating the others? Why build the wall, ward caves and develop a military order to guard against the other's  return with the help of the CTOF and the Greenseers?
From a literary standpoint, why set up a group of characters as the ultimate evil, show them kill everyone they meet, then have them raise those that they killed to do more killing? Why give them a backstory as the enemy of all warmth and life, and then back that up with their actions? 

The Answer is that they are the enemy. Pure and simple. GRRM is a great author, and there might be some nuance there, but the Others and their undead minions are the enemy. 
Many folks here end up drinking the "GRRM subverts everything so everything he writes must be a secret reverse flip that we can't see and have no evidence for but we think it anyway" Kool-aid. Sometimes and enemy is just an enemy as a cigar is just a cigar 

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

15 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

1: then we agree. Yay!

2: People seem to think he is doing all sorts of nefarious things with Zero evidence, so my "little" evidence, as in what is written in the book trumps  that zero.
Now,  as per the greenseers starting the war, this makes Zero sense. The others are the enemy of all living thing.
If the motherfuckers are the enemies, why make the pact with them on the isle of faces?  If the others were allies of the greenseers, why did the last hero seek out the CTOF for their help in defeating the others? Why build the wall, ward caves and develop a military order to guard against the other's  return with the help of the CTOF and the Greenseers?
From a literary standpoint, why set up a group of characters as the ultimate evil, show them kill everyone they meet, then have them raise those that they killed to do more killing? Why give them a backstory as the enemy of all warmth and life, and then back that up with their actions? 

The Answer is that they are the enemy. Pure and simple. GRRM is a great author, and there might be some nuance there, but the Others and their undead minions are the enemy. 
Many folks here end up drinking the "GRRM subverts everything so everything he writes must be a secret reverse flip that we can't see and have no evidence for but we think it anyway" Kool-aid. Sometimes and enemy is just an enemy as a cigar is just a cigar 

Why make the pact? Why did the Last Hero seek the COTF? Why build the Wall and ward the caves and create the NW? I'm not sure, but I certainly don't put blind trust in ancient history that lacks any written records. Real history could be very different from the legends we are told. And we don't even know for sure that the cave is warded. For all we know, those dead bodies outside could be controlled by BR.

I'll respond to your questions with some of my own: Why did the COTF wait for the Last Hero to seek them out if the Others were already their enemy? Why weren't they fighting them already? Why are the remaining COTF on the same side of the Wall as the Others? Why did the COTF stop giving the NW obsidian weapons?

You characterize my views (and others) as "drinking the Kool-aid", but if you actually read GRRM's other stories and his crazy endings, you will find they are full of crazy conspiracies, and he loves to subvert expectations all the time. Why portray the Others as evil? Well obviously, he wants to trick the reader into thinking they are evil, when they aren't. If it were just a different ethnic group of regular humans in the north, pushing south with their military and killing everyone in their path, would you still have the same opinion? Even if they did have necromancy powers? I don't see how raising the dead as a weapon is inherently any more evil than, say, using dragons to burn your enemies alive. The actions of the Others so far are no more evil than things that humans do in war all the time, both in real life and in asoiaf.

Finally, I would like to point out that the one GRRM story that most closely resembles asoiaf is And Seven Times Never Kill Man. And in that story, ancient mysterious pyramids (which are like the weirwoods) basically enslave the Jaenshi and humans living on the planet by controlling them telepathically, seemingly for the purpose of maintaining balance with nature. When the Jaenshi lose their connections to the pyramids, they act like humans, eating and fucking without restraint, procreating too fast and consuming too many resources. When they are connected, the balance of nature is maintained. So based on his other writings, I'm betting that the weirnet is attempting to achieve a similar goal, that is dominating mankind in order to control them and reestablish balance with nature.If anything, the Others could just be their tool for population control, and helping humans defeat them would go against their goals. GRRM is an atheist hippie who writes stories about how religious extremism and war are bad. Writing a story where the followers of the Red God are correct and war is justified would be the opposite of everything else he has written, so I highly doubt that is what is going on here.

[kissdbyfire]

1 hour ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I am glad I can impart my wisdom to you 
1: If that is true then bran never travels into the past we have a paradox, then bran figure 8 loops between being the last greenseer and time traveling, undoing his injury, preventing his time traveling thus resulting in his injury.  B.O.R.I.N.G. Lets just have a plot that moves forward.
2: He isn't bloodraven anymore. He is the last Greenseer with access to every memory and experience from every greenseer, skinchanger and heart tree from the beginning of greensight.  He has to reason to lie. His purpose now is to train bran to fight the war ahead. If time traveling could make it so the war never happens, why not use it?  

Indeed, very boring.  I'm not worried though, because I don't think that's where Martin is going with the story.

[Wrl6199]

5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed, very boring.  I'm not worried though, because I don't think that's where Martin is going with the story.

Where do you think hes going with it?

[Dorian Martell's son]

11 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Why make the pact? Why did the Last Hero seek the COTF? Why build the Wall and ward the caves and create the NW? I'm not sure, but I certainly don't put blind trust in ancient history that lacks any written records. Real history could be very different from the legends we are told. And we don't even know for sure that the cave is warded. For all we know, those dead bodies outside could be controlled by BR.

Why would bloodraven call Bran to him and then try to kill him on the way?  To hone his fairly untested powers than he hasn't been trained in yet? Why would leaf then lie about the cave being warded? Why not just let coldhands in?  Why all the subterfuge if all they had to do was get bran north? The answer is that there isn't any subterfuge or lying. It is what it is.  Being contrary with no evidence other than hypothetical speculation is the Kool aid. Ancient history is foreshadowing and a hint at what we will see in the future books.

15 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

You characterize my views (and others) as "drinking the Kool-aid", but if you actually read GRRM's other stories and his crazy endings, you will find they are full of crazy conspiracies, and he loves to subvert expectations all the time. Why portray the Others as evil? Well obviously, he wants to trick the reader into thinking they are evil, when they aren't. If it were just a different ethnic group of regular humans in the north, pushing south with their military and killing everyone in their path, would you still have the same opinion? Even if they did have necromancy powers? I don't see how raising the dead as a weapon is inherently any more evil than, say, using dragons to burn your enemies alive. The actions of the Others so far are no more evil than things that humans do in war all the time, both in real life and in asoiaf.

Other stories are not this one. The lost tribe of necromancer eskimos means nothing as we have seen the others and what they do. I understand they the others do not think that transforming the world into a frozen wasteland with nothing alive but themselves is evil, but the books are  written from a human perspective. As for the relative evil of Killing people and then using their corpses as weapons vs. Deploying dragons to kill the enemies? Communication.   Tywin as lord gave the Reynes a chance to surrender, bend the knee and come back into the King's peace. Dany offered the Yunkai a chance to surrender.  That is the difference. The others are just killing as far as we can see, since literally the beginning of the books. Therefore, the actions of the others are set up as the "Ultimate" evil.

27 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

I'll respond to your questions with some of my own: Why did the COTF wait for the Last Hero to seek them out if the Others were already their enemy? Why weren't they fighting them already? Why are the remaining COTF on the same side of the Wall as the Others? Why did the COTF stop giving the NW obsidian weapons?

1: Their numbers were decimated. Leaf says so. Even if there was no war, the CTOF cannot reproduce like people, and are slowly dying out. 
2: We don't know if they were fighting them or not. The others seem more like an ancient enemy, the in the past the children could fight fairly easily with obsidian weapons and fire. Since the tales tell of the children helping  build the wall, and the fact that they are now helping train bran, they are fighting as best they can. 
3: Magic is stronger at the wall and beyond. The Children like the giants and direwolves are magical creatures. they do not flourish south of the wall.
4: No idea.  The last invasion was 8000 years previous to the story so maybe the children felt they didn't have to? I am sure there is plenty of baseless speculation to cover it, but in the spirit of reversals, if the others were allies of the children, why supply the watch with obsidian weapons in the first place? 

35 minutes ago, 40 Thousand Skeletons said:

Finally, I would like to point out that the one GRRM story that most closely resembles asoiaf is And Seven Times Never Kill Man. And in that story, ancient mysterious pyramids (which are like the weirwoods) basically enslave the Jaenshi and humans living on the planet by controlling them telepathically, seemingly for the purpose of maintaining balance with nature. When the Jaenshi lose their connections to the pyramids, they act like humans, eating and fucking without restraint, procreating too fast and consuming too many resources. When they are connected, the balance of nature is maintained. So based on his other writings, I'm betting that the weirnet is attempting to achieve a similar goal, that is dominating mankind in order to control them and reestablish balance with nature.If anything, the Others could just be their tool for population control, and helping humans defeat them would go against their goals. GRRM is an atheist hippie who writes stories about how religious extremism and war are bad. Writing a story where the followers of the Red God are correct and war is justified would be the opposite of everything else he has written, so I highly doubt that is what is going on here.

I would argue that GRRM is a good enough author that he would not recycle previous plots for his magnum opus. As an atheist hippie pushing 70, he would be raised after WW2, and the need to fight ultimate evil is spite of the complex and nuanced reasons for the existence of that ultimate evil, and he is not writing a story of the red god's followers being correct. He shows mel being wrong. he shows Morroqo being wrong. What he has done is shown a cold as ice ultimate baddie, and a hot burning weapon that is dangerous and often misused. Learning to control one force to fight another is the story. The song of ice and fire. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

9 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said:

Indeed, very boring.  I'm not worried though, because I don't think that's where Martin is going with the story.

Me neither. 

[kissdbyfire]

12 minutes ago, Wrl6199 said:

Where do you think hes going with it?

That's a tough question!

And impossible to answer with certainty with what we know so far. But imo time travel is out. As to the origin of the WW, I find it much more likely that they were created by either a rogue faction of the CotF or, even better, by men. After all, "man is his own worst enemy", and this is something I can see Martin going for.

[40 Thousand Skeletons]

22 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I understand they the others do not think that transforming the world into a frozen wasteland with nothing alive but themselves is evil, but the books are  written from a human perspective.

Who says the Others are trying to transform the world into a frozen wasteland with nothing alive but themselves? So far, all I have seen is the Others kill a few people, maybe in the magnitude of hundreds or a few thousand. Yeah, they didn't give any warning, but that alone is not super duper evil. It's just a dick move, but maybe they are convinced it's necessary for survival. As you said, we lack communication with them so far, so we don't know their motives or end goal. Are they trying to conquer the North? All of Westeros? Essos? Sothoryos? Ulthos? Do they really want to dominate the entire world, or would they be content with the lands north of the Wall? We really don't know.

28 minutes ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

I would argue that GRRM is a good enough author that he would not recycle previous plots for his magnum opus. As an atheist hippie pushing 70, he would be raised after WW2, and the need to fight ultimate evil is spite of the complex and nuanced reasons for the existence of that ultimate evil, and he is not writing a story of the red god's followers being correct. He shows mel being wrong. he shows Morroqo being wrong. What he has done is shown a cold as ice ultimate baddie, and a hot burning weapon that is dangerous and often misused. Learning to control one force to fight another is the story. The song of ice and fire. 

That's an absurd argument, no offense. GRRM recycles previous plots all the time. Why not do it again for his magnum opus? It doesn't make him a bad author. And as you say, he was raised after WW2, not during WW2. In other words, he grew up and had his world view shaped during the Vietnam War, a war that is largely considered a pointless waste of human life. And this is reflected most of his writing. A story where war against the "evil Others" is justified would be totally the opposite of everything else he has written. Writing a story where there is a conspiracy of telepathic puppet masters sending visions to men to make them kill each other would absolutely be in line with his other work, so I see no reason why it should surprise us if that is the plot of asoiaf.

And yes, he shows Mel being wrong. Mel thinks that onions are either good or bad, but Sam, when given an onion that is half black with rot, cuts off the rotten part and eats the good half. So why should we think their will be an Azor Ahai or a Battle for the Dawn against the Others? It's all bull shit.