Men's rights/issues thread- Grab 'em right by the willy

[JGP]

On 23/01/2017 at 5:31 AM, mankytoes said:

With the womenfolk marching on Washington for the arrival of President Pussygrabber, it's definitely a time when women's issues are predominant in public discussion. So where should men stand with issues that specifically effect us?

The main issues we face in Western countries as far as I can tell are-

- Paternity, and whether fathers do/should have equal rights as mothers.

- Crime/Justice, and whether men do/should receive equal punishments as women.

- Education, where boys are consistantly doing worse overall

- Addiction, how men are significantly more likely to be addicted to alcohol and drugs

- Health, where men die younger and commit suicide more

I was asked in a recent feminist thread why I don't just join a men's rights group. I don't have any objection to that, but unfortunately all the groups I've seen are anti-feminist and conservative, and I'm neither of those things. Rights for fathers, for example, have got better in more liberal, feminist influenced countries. It's pretty outrageous that a raped boy can later be forced to pay child support-

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/09/02/statutory-rape-victim-child-support/14953965/

But that's happening in Kansas, not Stockholm.

The other common answer is that feminists are going to solve these problems by achieving gender equality. That's a view I'm a lot more favourable towards. The idea of a father getting equal rights to see his children is clearly linked to the idea of a mother having equal working opportunities. However, I've found actual enthusiasm for tackling these issues pretty lacking in feminists. In fact, they often seem quite offended by even bringing issues that effect men up in a feminist discussion, and want to make it clear that anything about men must be seen as a lesser issue.

So the main question is- what are the most important issues we face, and how should we tackle them? Is harmony between feminists and "meninists" possible?

Please note- This thread is not a safe space for anyone, and all views are welcome. The only thing I'd like to request is that we try to stick to Western society and issues, just because it is very different in other parts of the world, and history shows me once we bring Islam, etc, into discussions, it tends to dominate and get off topic.

I can't speak to all of these. Living in Canada, and having gone through a divorce (with children) the atmosphere over the last few decades in the Family Courts has changed considerably. If all other things are relatively equal (house and home, finances, etc) and the precedent prior to separation is that the father has been an involved parent, shared custody and a 50/50 split on parental time is actually encouraged as it's better for the children. At least in my experience, because that's what I fought for and won.

That said, putting aside the ingrained (and faulty) idea that the mother is by default a better parent, there are many, many men who walk away from this responsibility when their relationship/marriage ends. Whether it's a last spit in the eye, a passive aggressive form of punishment directed at their former partner, or whatever, I don't know-- I think that if the perception truly exists, then men need to own their share of the Courts' judgment that women are better parents beause good parents don't turn their back on their kids.

[Kelli Fury]

Statistically, the women get custody thing is a falsehood. Men are more likely to get full custody than women *when they ask for it* It's just that they are much less likely to seek full custody. The women get custody thing is just an oft repeated fallacy spurred by men who did not seek what they complain not to have. If you are male and ask the judge for custody- you are more likely to get it. Yes, more women have full custody, but a lower percentage of women seeking custody are granted it by a judge than the percentage of men. 

[JGP]

6 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Statistically, the women get custody thing is a falsehood. Men are more likely to get full custody than women *when they ask for it* It's just that they are much less likely to seek full custody. The women get custody thing is just an oft repeated fallacy spurred by men who did not seek what they complain not to have. If you are male and ask the judge for custody- you are more likely to get it. Yes, more women have full custody, but a lower percentage of women seeking custody are granted it by a judge than the percentage of men. 

I don't know about whether men in general get custody more often than women when they ask for it (not disagreeing with you, Kay, I really don't know) but I absolutely agree with what you're otherwise saying.

Many men don't even ask and that's fucked up. 

[mankytoes]

8 minutes ago, Kelli Fury said:

Statistically, the women get custody thing is a falsehood. Men are more likely to get full custody than women *when they ask for it* It's just that they are much less likely to seek full custody. The women get custody thing is just an oft repeated fallacy spurred by men who did not seek what they complain not to have. If you are male and ask the judge for custody- you are more likely to get it. Yes, more women have full custody, but a lower percentage of women seeking custody are granted it by a judge than the percentage of men. 

Do you have a source for that? I've had a search, but every article, even the feminist ones trying to argue against this people a problem, admit mothers get the children more, they just say that it's fair because the mothers usually spend more time with the children.

And just somebody hasn't legally requested custody, it's not fair to assume they don't want their child. Surely it's preferable to try and avoid court if possible? If you think the court is going to award it to your partner, and that they would be a good caregiver, wouldn't you want to save the time, money and stress on the child? I don't know much about family courts, and obviously it varies by country, but don't they usually ask the child who they would rather stay with if it's a close thing? I would ask the child myself.

[Kalbear]

7 hours ago, mankytoes said:

- This is why I don't think we can improve our lot in life while taking a generally socially conservative attitude.

- In what sense do you feel women are more victimised? All the stats I've seen have indicated men are significantly more likely to be victims of violent crime- http://nortonbooks.typepad.com/everydaysociology/2009/05/who-is-most-likely-to-be-a-crime-victim.html

Men are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime which is reported. Women are far more likely to be abused by the system of justice than men are in most fields. One field where this isn't true is rape, which is massively underreported for men and women - and likely even more underreported for men. 

Another really bad one is medical care, where women are far more likely to be told to get over it by their doctors compared to men. The social theory here is that men don't go to the doctor unless it's really bad so they're likely to be much more serious, whereas women are more willing to go and therefore report more falsehoods. The horrible thing about this is that women physiologically have a much higher pain tolerance than men do, and therefore when they report pain chances are good that it is really fucking bad.

7 hours ago, mankytoes said:

- I guess it all ties into the idea of women being seen as inherently "weak" and men as inherently "strong". This can work in our favour, except when we actually need help. Similiarly, I should have mentioned homeless as one of the main men's issues.

Getting a bit more personal, I totally accept all this stuff, but I still find it extremely difficult to be open about these sorts of things. Then again, I can think of plenty of women who that is true about as well.

It's definitely hard for many women to admit having issues too, but women at least have a socially acceptable outlet for intimacy that men do not. 

And yeah, homelessness is another problem - partially because men are less likely to ask for help, and partially because men are less likely to have strong bonds with others that they can reasonably expect help. 

One of the most striking things I read recently was a woman's article about an MRA group that her brother was involved in, and it was clear (at least for him) that it wasn't about having sex, it was about bonding with other men about a shared interest that was acceptable. The sex and dating  was almost incidental. 

 

[JGP]

19 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

And just somebody hasn't legally requested custody, it's not fair to assume they don't want their child. Surely it's preferable to try and avoid court if possible? If you think the court is going to award it to your partner, and that they would be a good caregiver, wouldn't you want to save the time, money and stress on the child? I don't know much about family courts, and obviously it varies by country, but don't they usually ask the child who they would rather stay with if it's a close thing? I would ask the child myself.

I'm not a child psychologist, but personally I'd find putting your child on the spot like that by asking them to state who they'd rather live with to be needlessly cruel-- given they too are also dealing with the break up of the family unit.

*In Canada, re: custody battles, the Court doesn't ask unless the child is of the age of consent

Regarding the other point, yeah, maybe it's not entirely fair but is it actually wrong? You're a former partner/husband and father, with the ways and means to provide a second home on parity with your former partner and you don't want equal right and access to your own children?

I'm not sure what other conclusion someone else is expected to arrive at.

[mankytoes]

41 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

Men are more likely to be the victim of a violent crime which is reported. Women are far more likely to be abused by the system of justice than men are in most fields. One field where this isn't true is rape, which is massively underreported for men and women - and likely even more underreported for men. 

Another really bad one is medical care, where women are far more likely to be told to get over it by their doctors compared to men. The social theory here is that men don't go to the doctor unless it's really bad so they're likely to be much more serious, whereas women are more willing to go and therefore report more falsehoods. The horrible thing about this is that women physiologically have a much higher pain tolerance than men do, and therefore when they report pain chances are good that it is really fucking bad.

It's definitely hard for many women to admit having issues too, but women at least have a socially acceptable outlet for intimacy that men do not. 

And yeah, homelessness is another problem - partially because men are less likely to ask for help, and partially because men are less likely to have strong bonds with others that they can reasonably expect help. 

One of the most striking things I read recently was a woman's article about an MRA group that her brother was involved in, and it was clear (at least for him) that it wasn't about having sex, it was about bonding with other men about a shared interest that was acceptable. The sex and dating  was almost incidental. 

 

In what sense? I've read the opposite in some cases, for example domestic violence, that it's mainly men who feel they aren't taken as seriously. Of course, women can't legally rape men in most juristictions. In the UK, it has to be commited with a penis to call it rape. If a woman forces a man to have sex, that's sexual assault.

Where did you hear that? http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97662&page=1  "Study after study has shown that men have a higher tolerance for pain than women, according to researchers who seem to be making some progress in figuring out why".

Yeah, I mean I don't want to generalise too much on that one because I know so many exceptions to it.

I think people feel more social responsibility to look after women too. I saw a programme on homelessness where the council only had one bed for the night- a guy had claimed it, but when a woman showed up, he let there have it.

So these are just guys that aren't into sports or computer games?

29 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

I'm not a child psychologist, but personally I'd find putting your child on the spot like that by asking them to state who they'd rather live with to be needlessly cruel-- given they too are also dealing with the break up of the family unit.

*In Canada, re: custody battles, the Court doesn't ask unless the child is of the age of consent

Regarding the other point, yeah, maybe it's not entirely fair but is it actually wrong? You're a former partner/husband and father, with the ways and means to provide a second home on parity with your former partner and you don't want equal right and access to your own children?

I'm not sure what other conclusion someone else is expected to arrive at.

I dunno, there's a way you can ask questions like that. I'd think it was crueler for them to be with the parent they don't want to be with though.

I just think there are a lot of individual circumstances. Obviously there are lots of callous men who don't want to take care of their children. There are two cases in my family. But I don't think it's right to tar everyone with the same brush. The guys who don't see their children, sure. But not the ones who don't try for custody.

Well someone might really want their child, but know deep down it would be better for the child to be with the other parent.

[Kalbear]

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

In what sense? I've read the opposite in some cases, for example domestic violence, that it's mainly men who feel they aren't taken as seriously. Of course, women can't legally rape men in most juristictions. In the UK, it has to be commited with a penis to call it rape. If a woman forces a man to have sex, that's sexual assault.

In certain places men aren't treated as seriously, and in others women are, but on the whole women are more likely to be treated badly by the justice system - more likely to be treated as false or unreliable witnesses, more likely to simply be told that there's nothing to be done, more likely to have evidence ignored or gaslighted.

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

Where did you hear that? http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=97662&page=1  "Study after study has shown that men have a higher tolerance for pain than women, according to researchers who seem to be making some progress in figuring out why".

That one study isn't really particularly useful, especially since it had to do not with the threshold of pain but whether or not women would report it. As I said, women are more likely to consider reporting pain than men are. And since pain is entirely self-reported it's very difficult to determine what the actual cause is. The specific issue that I was talking about is not that women's pain thresholds are necessarily higher (hard to measure) but that doctor's responses to women's pain is lower (which as it turns out is pretty easy to measure). 

1 minute ago, mankytoes said:

So these are just guys that aren't into sports or computer games?

Yes, there are. Or sports doesn't give them the same ability to participate. Or video games doesn't. Both often don't allow for teamwork and connection to happen in a meaningful way, the same way the MRA culture does. The MRA culture is also fairly supportive of other men in the culture in a very weird way. They are often likely to help out with other people's game and style and whatnot, and it's a sign of strength to be a good teacher there. 

[JGP]

26 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

I dunno, there's a way you can ask questions like that. I'd think it was crueler for them to be with the parent they don't want to be with though.

I just think there are a lot of individual circumstances. Obviously there are lots of callous men who don't want to take care of their children. There are two cases in my family. But I don't think it's right to tar everyone with the same brush. The guys who don't see their children, sure. But not the ones who don't try for custody.

Well someone might really want their child, but know deep down it would be better for the child to be with the other parent.

A valid point.

Circumstances aside though, I'm reasonably confident in stating that in regard to the overall wellbeing of the child/children, if dad was actually present during the relationship and sharing responsibility (beyond solely being the breadwinner, or as is the case much more often-- alongside their partner a contributor to a dual income family) then it's much easier for said child/children to emotionally deal and adjust to the separation et divorce if dad doesn't otherwise disappear from their lives excepting every other weekend.

But yes, I'd agree that it's situational so I suppose I'll back pedal on that a bit.

[DunderMifflin]

7 hours ago, butterbumps! said:

Is it your understanding that everyone experiences marginalization/ discrimination/ violations of human rights in exactly the same way, degree and frequency as everyone else?

Nah, that would be almost as silly of a thought as understanding that everyone within a vaguely defined group experiences marginalization/discrimination/violations of human rights in the exact same way, degree, and frequency as everyone else within said group.

[Rorshach]

I have heard before that men who ask for custody get it more often than women. I would assume that's right, as it sounds right that those who would make the argument are the ones who have also been good fathers through the marriage. 

Considering that, I'm not certain whether that trend holds up if every father started asking for custody. It is certainly possible that among the non-askers, there are a bigger group who will be deemed unworthy custodians by the court. 

The argument is speculative either way, however.

[JGP]

17 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

I have heard before that men who ask for custody get it more often than women. I would assume that's right, as it sounds right that those who would make the argument are the ones who have also been good fathers through the marriage. 

Considering that, I'm not certain whether that trend holds up if every father started asking for custody. It is certainly possible that among the non-askers, there are a bigger group who will be deemed unworthy custodians by the court. 

The argument is speculative either way, however.

True, but interesting nonetheless. If one drops back to Kal's previous points about justice and women, if suddenly all men were asking for equal right and access in the Courts would they get it? Would they get shared custody and a 50/50 parenting schedule even if they were less... suitable(?) ...just because they asked?

[mankytoes]

1 hour ago, Kalbear said:

In certain places men aren't treated as seriously, and in others women are, but on the whole women are more likely to be treated badly by the justice system - more likely to be treated as false or unreliable witnesses, more likely to simply be told that there's nothing to be done, more likely to have evidence ignored or gaslighted.

That one study isn't really particularly useful, especially since it had to do not with the threshold of pain but whether or not women would report it. As I said, women are more likely to consider reporting pain than men are. And since pain is entirely self-reported it's very difficult to determine what the actual cause is. The specific issue that I was talking about is not that women's pain thresholds are necessarily higher (hard to measure) but that doctor's responses to women's pain is lower (which as it turns out is pretty easy to measure). 

Yes, there are. Or sports doesn't give them the same ability to participate. Or video games doesn't. Both often don't allow for teamwork and connection to happen in a meaningful way, the same way the MRA culture does. The MRA culture is also fairly supportive of other men in the culture in a very weird way. They are often likely to help out with other people's game and style and whatnot, and it's a sign of strength to be a good teacher there. 

Any reading on the issue? What pursuaded you of that?

That isn't what you said though, you said "women physiologically have a much higher pain tolerance than men do".

That's a very interesting theory. I'm very bad at maintaining friendships, like a lot of guys I know.

57 minutes ago, JEORDHl said:

A valid point.

Circumstances aside though, I'm reasonably confident in stating that in regard to the overall wellbeing of the child/children, if dad was actually present during the relationship and sharing responsibility (beyond solely being the breadwinner, or as is the case much more often-- alongside their partner a contributor to a dual income family) then it's much easier for said child/children to emotionally deal and adjust to the separation et divorce if dad doesn't otherwise disappear from their lives excepting every other weekend.

But yes, I'd agree that it's situational so I suppose I'll back pedal on that a bit.

It's a bit of a vicious cycle. With the patriarchal system, women take care of the kids more, so they get custody, so they are seen as the main caregivers and the system sustains itself.

9 minutes ago, Rorshach said:

I have heard before that men who ask for custody get it more often than women. I would assume that's right, as it sounds right that those who would make the argument are the ones who have also been good fathers through the marriage. 

Considering that, I'm not certain whether that trend holds up if every father started asking for custody. It is certainly possible that among the non-askers, there are a bigger group who will be deemed unworthy custodians by the court. 

The argument is speculative either way, however.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/robert-hughes/are-custody-decisions-bia_b_870709.html

"In custody decisions, mothers are more likely to receive primary residential custody than fathers. Although in the past decade there has been an increase in equal residential custody, mothers are still much more likely to be awarded primary residential care. Across a wide range of jurisdictions the estimates are that mothers receive primary custody 68-88% of the time, fathers receive primary custody 8-14%, and equal residential custody is awarded in only 2-6% of the cases."

[Kalbear]

28 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

Any reading on the issue? What pursuaded you of that?

Lots of stuff. The sexual violence stats, the stats on domestic violence, the reason that the Violence against Women act was put into place (especially relevant as it is being repealed now). There's a lot of data.

28 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

That isn't what you said though, you said "women physiologically have a much higher pain tolerance than men do".

That is my belief, yes. The science on it is fairly undecided. Both that being the case and that doctors fail to treat women's pain as real pain when reported makes it really bad. This has been more of a personal thing for me, as I have had probably half the women in my life go to the doctor for something that turned out to be incredibly bad, but was first poo-pooed as not a big deal. 

28 minutes ago, mankytoes said:

That's a very interesting theory. I'm very bad at maintaining friendships, like a lot of guys I know.

Yep. And what friendships guys tend to have tend to revolve around shared interests, and do not particularly go outside of that. 

[JGP]

2 hours ago, mankytoes said:

It's a bit of a vicious cycle. With the patriarchal system, women take care of the kids more, so they get custody, so they are seen as the main caregivers and the system sustains itself.

I don't know if I can agree with that on the whole. While the system is behind it, there's definitely more to it than patriarchy being the reason why women take care of the kids more. 

It feels like, and this is in retrospect, that's there's a kind of general laziness that men perhaps feel they're entitled to when it comes to picking up their share of the parenting duties. What I mean by that, at least in my case, is like...

I recall a particular argument between my ex and I back in the day. She got frustrated with me because she had a job even more demanding than mine (insofar as scope of responsibility) and yet she felt like she had to take the time in the morning for some of the little things --like make sure the girls were ready for daycare/preschool, lunches, etc-- while I would just whistle out the door at 6 am. My response was: 'Well, that's when I have to head out to get to work on time. You have a lot more latitude when it comes to when you start.' It was perplexing at the time because it made sense, except it didn't. She did have more latitude than I, but honestly, she was still putting herself out every morning. And once I realized that it was an opt out on my part (cause, imma man) we started taking turns or making lunches together the evening before. 

That was just an example, but whether it's conscious or not, I think lots of men are fine with falling back on the societal norms that should've been put to bed with the model of the nuclear family. They just don't fit anymore. And what's more-- how can we, as men (whatever the fuck that actually means) blame an 'institution' that our gender was responsible for formulating and propagating? 

We created it, and it's main purpose is/was to 'keep women in their place' how the hell can can we whinge about patriarchy in regard to any contention between the sexes and look at ourselves in the mirror with self respect?

[Savannah]

On 1/23/2017 at 1:52 PM, mormont said:

These are all serious issues. However, context is important: pretty much all of them, so far as can be determined, arise from 'traditional' models of masculinity that emphasise qualities like independence, dominance, and fear of being seen as 'weak'.

Because of that, and because in almost all cases the answers lie in changing male-dominated institutions like the justice system, the answers lie with us, as men. They don't lie in complaining about women. We need to raise the status of childcare, tackle the perception that academic achievement and intelligence aren't 'masculine', and encourage men to be open about our physical and mental health. (And we're making some inroads there, but not enough.)

It's just that nobody thinks they are not. 

[Squab]

On ‎23‎/‎01‎/‎2017 at 10:31 PM, mankytoes said:

Education, where boys are consistantly doing worse overall

in Australia, and more specifically in Queensland where I am, the results are terrible.  In Queensland primary (elementary) schools, girls’ performance in literacy (Year 2 – Reading and Writing, Years 3 and 5 – Reading, Writing and Spelling) is substantially better than boys’ and this is especially true with regards to Writing. In Years 10 and 12 achievement, girls outperformed boys in most subject areas, particularly in English. Retention rates are also better for girls than for boys - 78% of girls complete high school, compared with 66% of boys.

One of the issues is a lack of male teachers as role models.  From university in Australia there are between 20% and 25% of male teaching graduates. Hiring rates for graduate teachers is skewed even further where less than 15% of graduate teachers hired in in Australia in 2015 were male. If a boy beats the odds at school and gets into university, is one of the few men to actually study education and then beats the odds and is hired, they then face an EEO policy which targets women for advancement rather than men. I can easily understand why men would steer away from becoming, or even trying to become, a teacher. And those that do, well they are more likely to be of such calibre and passion that they probably do very well.

Physics, one of the few subjects where boys are doing well has been ruined here. In the very late 90's the Education department in Australia started to change physics courses to appeal to more girls. Looking at power generation, rather than formulas on electricity flow and understanding how much energy is made, students are asked to white essays about power stations. Actual examples of questions in senior physics:

1998: about a diagram and description of a dc circuit powering a pump:

1. Sketch the magnetic field around the wires
2. On the diagram, show the direction of the force on wire A due to the current in wire B.
3. What is the magnitude of the magnetic flux density at point P midway between the wires?

From 2001 and 2006:

1. Discuss the impact that developments in electronics have had on society
2. Computer developments since World War II have been characterized by increasing performance at decreasing cost. This trend may or may not continue in the future. Assess this statement.

This has had the wonderful result of turning even more students (regardless of gender) away from physics and reducing the quality of those that did actually complete senior physics. No wonder South Australia cant keep the lights on.

[Savannah]

Are the EEO policies basically the same as reverse discrimination? 

[Squab]

1 hour ago, Savannah said:

Are the EEO policies basically the same as reverse discrimination? 

Don't really know what that means, sorry. Equality of Employment Opportunity

[mormont]

10 hours ago, Savannah said:

It's just that nobody thinks they are not. 

It's a widely-supported finding in educational research that boys do tend to believe exactly this and that it has a serious impact on their academic performance.