Men's rights/issues thread- Grab 'em right by the willy

[Theda Baratheon]

13 hours ago, Liffguard said:

I absolutely agree that we need to de-stigmatise the idea of men having close, open, emotionally intimate friendships with each other. We need to de-stigmatise the idea of men being vulnerable and willing to ask for help and support.

We also need to be careful not to overcompensate and end up criticising men who are actually fine with being somewhat more stoic and reticent. And for that matter, it should also be perfectly fine for women to also prefer to keep their emotions to themselves without being called a bitch, haughty, ice-queen etc.

I don't think that we're approaching that point yet, but when I have this discussion with people it's often framed as if emotional openness is good and emotional reticence is bad. Some people are naturally more comfortable with keeping their emotions and their vulnerabilities largely to themselves, without it being a case of repression. I want to see men more willing to open up, and society more accepting of men opening up, but not to the extent that men who choose not to are criticised instead. I'd rather the conversation be about recognising that different people have different emotional needs regardless of gender.

Oh I agree; I think this idea is about the types of men (and I know quite a few, some of them my friends) who expect their girlfriends to handle SO MUCH emotional labour on their behalf and put them on pedestals and when they fall short of those incredibly high standards are really shocked and upset I don't think it's just about stoic men because I know women who aren't open with their emotions as well as men who aren't who are totally healthy and good. It's just the type of people who mock these strong friendships not realising the amount of emotional labour their wives or girlfriends have to deal with from them. 

I mean of course some women do exactly the same thing it's just there's less stigma for us to have these types of bonds with other people. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who is simply just not open with their emotions it's just when all emotions, bad ones too, are constantly kept to yourself - can never be good. 

[Theda Baratheon]

13 hours ago, Liffguard said:

I absolutely agree that we need to de-stigmatise the idea of men having close, open, emotionally intimate friendships with each other. We need to de-stigmatise the idea of men being vulnerable and willing to ask for help and support.

We also need to be careful not to overcompensate and end up criticising men who are actually fine with being somewhat more stoic and reticent. And for that matter, it should also be perfectly fine for women to also prefer to keep their emotions to themselves without being called a bitch, haughty, ice-queen etc.

I don't think that we're approaching that point yet, but when I have this discussion with people it's often framed as if emotional openness is good and emotional reticence is bad. Some people are naturally more comfortable with keeping their emotions and their vulnerabilities largely to themselves, without it being a case of repression. I want to see men more willing to open up, and society more accepting of men opening up, but not to the extent that men who choose not to are criticised instead. I'd rather the conversation be about recognising that different people have different emotional needs regardless of gender.

Oh I agree; I think this idea is about the types of men (and I know quite a few, some of them my friends) who expect their girlfriends to handle SO MUCH emotional labour on their behalf and put them on pedestals and when they fall short of those incredibly high standards are really shocked and upset I don't think it's just about stoic men because I know women who aren't open with their emotions as well as men who aren't who are totally healthy and good. It's just the type of people who mock these strong friendships not realising the amount of emotional labour their wives or girlfriends have to deal with from them. 

I mean of course some women do exactly the same thing it's just there's less stigma for us to have these types of bonds with other people. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with someone who is simply just not open with their emotions it's just when all emotions, bad ones too, are constantly kept to yourself - can never be good. 

[Isalie]

Can someone elaborate on the emotional labour thing? What does it entail? 

[Liffguard]

7 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Oh I agree; I think this idea is about the types of men (and I know quite a few, some of them my friends) who expect their girlfriends to handle SO MUCH emotional labour on their behalf and put them on pedestals and when they fall short of those incredibly high standards are really shocked and upset I don't think it's just about stoic men because I know women who aren't open with their emotions as well as men who aren't who are totally healthy and good. It's just the type of people who mock these strong friendships not realising the amount of emotional labour their wives or girlfriends have to deal with from them.

Yeah, I think we're on the same page. It's not cool to be an emotional vampire. And there's definitely a huge difference between someone who is genuinely comfortable just dealing with their own emotions in their own way in their own time, and someone who relies utterly on the support of one person whilst also claiming not to need it and mocking others who do.

[Theda Baratheon]

Women aren't perfect either and can totally be emotional vampires 

[Balefont]

7 hours ago, Mikael said:

Can someone elaborate on the emotional labour thing? What does it entail? 

Without derailing the men's thread, basically it's the work, generally done by women, involving smoothing over emotions for others - usually men.  But the more self-realized the person, the less emotional labor they require, imo.  My hubs has come a looooooonnnnnnggggg fucking way in this regard.  Now he tries to help others, particularly his male friends but even some female ones, navigate their emotions and human interactions.  Though he still has a couple friends who suffer from their fragile masculinity and they constantly try to emasculate him for being self aware, compassionate and empathic.  He's actually stopped being friends with one of them and this is a big reason why.  (They also hated that he attracts more women than they do because he <gasp> treats women like human beings.)

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

So, is this view of toxic masculinity, this idea that men aren't able to connect with each other and its completely damaging their lives even that huge an issue? I have this feeling from the media that its a huge problem for men and its killing us all, but from everyone I know and my own experience and from people I've spoken to, it is in fact not that much of a problem. 

It seems like there is some sort of agreement on this thread that actually people of both genders deal with their emotions in different ways, some do it well and some do it badly. I'd say that there are many different strategies for working out what you are feeling, and dealing with it. Talking is one way, silent stoicism and self examination is another. Maybe there is a general trend of women needing to discuss their problems and men not really preferring to do that.

 

[Theda Baratheon]

1 minute ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

So, is this view of toxic masculinity, this idea that men aren't able to connect with each other and its completely damaging their lives even that huge an issue? I have this feeling from the media that its a huge problem for men and its killing us all, but from everyone I know and my own experience and from people I've spoken to, it is in fact not that much of a problem. 

It seems like there is some sort of agreement on this thread that actually people of both genders deal with their emotions in different ways, some do it well and some do it badly. I'd say that there are many different strategies for working out what you are feeling, and dealing with it. Talking is one way, silent stoicism and self examination is another. Maybe there is a general trend of women needing to discuss their problems and men not really preferring to do that.

 

Except I don't think there is. 

I'm only really commenting on this because recently two of my friends boyfriends have been acting this way; they have hardly anyu friends, hardly ever go out and rely on their girlfriends for EVERY bit of social and emotional interaction. Maybe women do this shit too, but like I said there's less stigma tied to women being open with their emotions.

I also think there's probably around an even number of women who are stoic and who prefer to self reflect; I know plenty of women who operate this way and I know plenty of men like this too who are totally happy seeming and healthy and good. 

You seem to think, when people bring up ''toxic masculinity'' that they are denigrating every single thing tied to masculinity and that's a common misunderstanding; because there are plenty of ''traditionally masculine'' behaviours that I admire; but just today I read another post from some guy saying all millennial men were simpering wimps who were repulsive to women because they might be a bit more in touch with their emotions? like lmao calm down - I don't know why it's such a big thing for people. 

I would be perfectly happy in a relationship with someone who was ''stoic'' and preferred to self reflect - because as all overt the place as my emotions can be, and contrary to how I probably come across on this board, i'm actually pretty self-reflective, REALLY value my own space and alone time and have been pretty stoic with my emotions but sometimes i've bottled them up so much so I've been ill. It's not that women are better at managing emotions or that men are crap; it's just that women are expected to be better. 

[James Arryn]

1 hour ago, Balefont said:

Without derailing the men's thread, basically it's the work, generally done by women, involving smoothing over emotions for others - usually men.  But the more self-realized the person, the less emotional labor they require, imo.  My hubs has come a looooooonnnnnnggggg fucking way in this regard.  Now he tries to help others, particularly his male friends but even some female ones, navigate their emotions and human interactions.  Though he still has a couple friends who suffer from their fragile masculinity and they constantly try to emasculate him for being self aware, compassionate and empathic.  He's actually stopped being friends with one of them and this is a big reason why.  (They also hated that he attracts more women than they do because he <gasp> treats women like human beings.)

How much does the labourers own self-realization or lack thereof influence the accuracy with which they gauge who/what needs said labour?

[Balefont]

On 2/24/2017 at 3:54 PM, James Arryn said:

How much does the labourers own self-realization or lack thereof influence the accuracy with which they gauge who/what needs said labour?

Again, this really is a subject for a different thread.

 

I agree that everyone has a different way of working their own shit out.  I, as a woman, am actually really private about my problems and prefer to work them out entirely on my own.  My husband comes to me for advice and help all the time.  

[mankytoes]

On 22/02/2017 at 11:08 PM, Kalbear said:

 

The reason that men often should have a group is because they (just like women) have different cultural life experiences that are shared by other men. And it's a good thing to be able to share those things with others.

That's well put. We are definitely not generally given that support. A good example is universities, which usually have a woman's officer, but not a men's officer. My old uni, Hull, actually had one, I believe the first, but people managed to get it abolished before I started. I did ask about this, and was advised that men shouldn't have specific representation because we aren't a socially discriminated against group. I guess that's the difference in thought- these people only think of us as groups. I asked if there weren't things that men would be more comfortable talking with other men about. I got a mumbled "suppose", backs turned to me, and the clear impression I wasn't welcome in these student politics groups (fine by me, they were pretty much all unbearable).

As most of us agree, MRA groups are usually pretty crappy. But maybe we would have a bit more moderation if general male support was more tolerated.

[Savannah]

On 2/24/2017 at 9:17 PM, Balefont said:

Without derailing the men's thread, basically it's the work, generally done by women, involving smoothing over emotions for others - usually men.  But the more self-realized the person, the less emotional labor they require, imo.  My hubs has come a looooooonnnnnnggggg fucking way in this regard.  Now he tries to help others, particularly his male friends but even some female ones, navigate their emotions and human interactions.  Though he still has a couple friends who suffer from their fragile masculinity and they constantly try to emasculate him for being self aware, compassionate and empathic.  He's actually stopped being friends with one of them and this is a big reason why.  (They also hated that he attracts more women than they do because he <gasp> treats women like human beings.)

 

"Emotional labor is the process of managing feelings and expressions to fulfill the emotional requirements of a job. More specifically, workers are expected to regulate their emotions during interactions with customers, co-workers and superiors."

That makes sense. 

In an adult relationship not so much.

[Isalie]

I must admit I still don't really get it. Is it like one part having angry outbursts and the other having to soothe or is one always talking about his or her troubles and the other always listening? 

One thing that has come up here though is men living shorter lives, and apparently we are in luck, since women have picked up our harmful ways with drinking and so on to a larger extent the age gap is closing!

 

[Balefont]

On ‎2‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 3:51 PM, Mikael said:

I must admit I still don't really get it. Is it like one part having angry outbursts and the other having to soothe or is one always talking about his or her troubles and the other always listening? 

One thing that has come up here though is men living shorter lives, and apparently we are in luck, since women have picked up our harmful ways with drinking and so on to a larger extent the age gap is closing!

 

That's an overly simplistic and narrowed interpretation.  It's far more nuanced than that.

And I wouldn't scoff or be dismissive of the concepts of "emotional labor" and "soft skills" since being adept in these types of skills is increasingly sought after by employers. 

[Isalie]

I'm not trying to diminish emotional labor nor make light of the problem, I just don't get it. I'm both a parent and a teacher so I have to try to manage people's moods all day, is it like that? Staying a step ahead of people's moods to avert trouble before it happens? If so, that sounds like an exhausting dance to perform around adults, even though I'm sure we all do it at times to some extent.

[karaddin]

That's more on the track yeah. Understanding your partners emotions, frequently despite them not understanding them themselves, and knowing what to do and say to help them cope in life without having to figure it out for themselves. Carrying their stress and anxiety for them. Being their only trusted confidant that they put everything onto. It doesn't have to be at the more extreme (but still common) level of preventing angry/violent/abusive outbursts, doing it just because you love them and are trying to make them happy is sufficient. Personally I'd say all relationships involve some level of emotional labour, its just unhealthy when its entirely one direction and its generally unhealthy to rely entirely on a single person.

[TerraPrime]

On 2/24/2017 at 1:38 PM, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

So, is this view of toxic masculinity, this idea that men aren't able to connect with each other and its completely damaging their lives even that huge an issue? I have this feeling from the media that its a huge problem for men and its killing us all, but from everyone I know and my own experience and from people I've spoken to, it is in fact not that much of a problem. 

More men succeed at suicides than women do. Male veterans with PTSD tend to struggle more than female veterans do. The lone gunman mass killers common in the U.S. are almost exclusively men, with the emphasis on the "lone" part. 

Being emotionally isolated due to, in part, the cultural expectations associated with one's gender, is a common component to all the above. 

 

But you're right that many men don't see this as a problem. They don't think holding on to those emotions and not even having a need to process them is an issue. They think it's natural and normal to just be twisted up inside, combating the anxiety and anguish on their own. Most won't even know there's an alternate unless some cataclysmic event forces them to seek counseling, such as loss of a spouse, PTSD, huge depression, etc. 

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

question, should women have to go into battle as men do? 

[TerraPrime]

8 minutes ago, Westerosi Coast Gangster said:

question, should women have to go into battle as men do? 

Of course. Why is this a question?

[Westerosi Coast Gangster]

12 minutes ago, TerraPrime said:

Of course. Why is this a question?

do you feel they are at a disadvantage, by being limited in their physical capability? what about being embedded where 99percent of your comrades are of the opposite sex? I think it has the potential to cause serious problems.