Men's rights/issues thread- Grab 'em right by the willy

[Cas Stark]

6 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I don't agree with what C4JS is saying about this at all, but this response is a convoluted straw man, the idea that he's bemoaning limitations on sexual assault or the constraints of consent. He is rather pepetuing the myth that men have much more active sexual appetites or less sexual discretion, which is kindof a bizarre supply/demand argument re:power. Twisting this into a silent appeal for lowering the bar on sexual assault...I mean, you really have to want to see that to see that there IMO. 

I thought it was more of a meta comment on the fact that in the majority of cases it is still the males who pursue, who make the overtures, and so, it would be the men who are getting rejected if those overtures are not accepted.  This dynamic may or may not be socialization or biology....and while things have loosened up considerably in the last 20 or 30 years, I think its still the case that men more actively pursue women than the reverse.

[HexMachina]

58 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

How is it baffling? In general its women who hold all the cards when it comes to sex, its them who decides when and where it happens. All men can do is try and win the woman's approval and most don't ever get it. This means that most men end up being harshly rejected over and over.

So? No one is entitled to sex or any kind of relationship just because they try and win the other's approval. Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Should women be flattered and offer themselves to anyone who tries to win their approval? 

Also, saying women hold all the cards is pretty misguided and insulting to both men and women. On the one hand it paints men with the brush of being sex-obsessed and ready to act on those urges at any given moment. And at the same time it suggests an empowerment that women just don't have. As mormont said, no-one holds all the cards in sexual encounters, if they are to be healthy and consensual. It's a mutual thing. I really struggle to follow your line of argument here

[Theda Baratheon]

3 minutes ago, HelenaExMachina said:

So? No one is entitled to sex or any kind of relationship just because they try and win the other's approval. Not sure what point you are trying to make here. Should women be flattered and offer themselves to anyone who tries to win their approval? 

Also, saying women hold all the cards is pretty misguided and insulting to both men and women. On the one hand it paints men with the brush of being sex-obsessed and ready to act on those urges at any given moment. And at the same time it suggests an empowerment that women just don't have. As mormont said, no-one holds all the cards in sexual encounters, if they are to be healthy and consensual. It's a mutual thing. I really struggle to follow your line of argument here

I totally agree and you put it better than I could. To say something like "you could go out tomorrow and get laid" is just not true and does a disservice to both men and women. It assumes I could just ask any dude and he would be like YES PLEASE which is ridiculous as not all men want to have sex with ALL women and it assumes women have this power about us that is inherent when it just isnt lmao. I just don't understand the point of view at all - if it was so easy it would have happened but it isn't easy. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I thought it was more of a meta comment on the fact that in the majority of cases it is still the males who pursue, who make the overtures, and so, it would be the men who are getting rejected if those overtures are not accepted.  This dynamic may or may not be socialization or biology....and while things have loosened up considerably in the last 20 or 30 years, I think its still the case that men more actively pursue women than the reverse.

Exactly. Thank you.

 

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

@Toth, I also have a 1 year old boy who's personality (at this age) is exactly like his sisters. Calm, never ever throws a fit in public and seems to be learning quicker than my middle son did. So, I understand that boys, girls can all have a wide variety of personalities. I was speaking more to @Channel4s-JonSnow remark about how boys who a rowdy are told to sit still or go to your room. The problem (usually boredom from pent up energy) isn't addressed and it's, boys will be boys.  

As a matter of fact, some of the worst, mouthiest children I've ever met have been girls. But, yes, a lack of father figure is one of the main contributing factor in bad behavior in boys or children in general. But, if I truly think about it, that's being narrow-minded also. Because, some of the most well behaved kids I've seen come from a single mother home. (Don't doubt the power of Mommy, it is strong) I'd say if I truly set and think about it, it's as @Toth says, it's unpredictable. I was just giving my experience.

[mormont]

11 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yes both parties have to consent. Of course. That doesn't mean that often the final say isn't in the hands of the woman. If her decision is forced or its not mutual then clearly its assault. I'm not sure why you think I'm saying something different.

Read what you said, then.

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

In general its women who hold all the cards when it comes to sex, its them who decides when and where it happens. All men can do is try and win the woman's approval and most don't ever get it. This means that most men end up being harshly rejected over and over.

Women hold all the cards. Women decide when and where sex happens. All men can do. Most don't ever get it. Harshly rejected.

You are, unquestionably, complaining: and the basis of the complaint is that women don't consent often enough.

This isn't a picture of sexual relationships that celebrates freely given mutual consent. The clear implication is that the way things are is unfair, that men deserve more consent, that women owe it to men in return for indicating their interest. That's not rejecting the need for consent, no: but it's not as far off it as you would probably like to think. It's part of the poisonous idea I mentioned earlier, that men earn sex from women, and that if they've done the work they're owed the payoff.

The 'final say' should always be in the hands of both parties.

[Theda Baratheon]

To be honest when I was a kid I ran everywhere and was super super hyper so much so my teachers kept me down some classes for ages which made me worse because I was so bored with the little work they allowed me to do - they had just written me off until my Mam came in and told them off lmao and surprise surprise by the end of primary I got top marks in everything. I also read a LOT when I was a kid  and was also very sporty. So don't know if some generalisat ions are only true because of nurture or nature I'm leaving towards the former 

[James Arryn]

4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I thought it was more of a meta comment on the fact that in the majority of cases it is still the males who pursue, who make the overtures, and so, it would be the men who are getting rejected if those overtures are not accepted.  This dynamic may or may not be socialization or biology....and while things have loosened up considerably in the last 20 or 30 years, I think its still the case that men more actively pursue women than the reverse.

I've never been able to decide where I stand on this. It's certainly the opposite of my personal experience, but I've never assumed that mine is universal. Still, it's so different and so often cited that it feels at times like it's either a myth or an outdated observation. Also, working in bars for years, it seemed to me that people of every classification often go looking for some kind of sexual affirmation or intrigue and that almost everyone's standards lower as the night wears on. It's maybe possible that women tick that box short of consumation more than men do, I guess, or are more concerned about it's ramifications...but again not really my experience. 

But even suppose this is true and does contribute to male frustration, it seems a disease without a cure. Maybe treatment, ie maybe if society was more sympathies after the fact. But I don't see anything changing the basic facts if they are actually factual.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

Read what you said, then.

Women hold all the cards. Women decide when and where sex happens. All men can do. Most don't ever get it. Harshly rejected.

You are, unquestionably, complaining: and the basis of the complaint is that women don't consent often enough.

This isn't a picture of sexual relationships that celebrates freely given mutual consent. The clear implication is that the way things are is unfair, that men deserve more consent, that women owe it to men in return for indicating their interest. That's not rejecting the need for consent, no: but it's not as far off it as you would probably like to think. It's part of the poisonous idea I mentioned earlier, that men earn sex from women, and that if they've done the work they're owed the payoff.

The 'final say' should always be in the hands of both parties.

Please, I would ask that you refrain from reading into my intentions with what I am saying. My posts are merely observations. I'm talking about the mens rights movement and why feminism is rejected by them. Go back a couple of pages if you missed it. 

I'm not complaining, I have been through a phase of frustration in my early years and then learnt the realities of life and am certainly not frustrated or unhappy now as I see how the sexual dynamics of things work. A lot of guys are not in that position, which is why I'm trying to illustrate why these red pill kind of guys even exist. 

But this transactional idea of sex still exists out there, hopefully its going away sometime soon. But ask any group of women who should pay for the first date and you'll mostly get the answer of the man. Its still men who do the wining and dining and the romancing to win the hearts of the woman (really they aren't so interested in the heart at first) 

I'll repeat, I'm not saying men deserve consent at all. I don't want anyone to read that into it. Merely that men are always going to be the one pursuing and in that case women are holding the cards.

[Cas Stark]

2 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

I've never been able to decide where I stand on this. It's certainly the opposite of my personal experience, but I've never assumed that mine is universal. Still, it's so different and so often cited that it feels at times like it's either a myth or an outdated observation. Also, working in bars for years, it seemed to me that people of every classification often go looking for some kind of sexual affirmation or intrigue and that almost everyone's standards lower as the night wears on. It's maybe possible that women tick that box short of consumation more than men do, I guess, or are more concerned about it's ramifications...but again not really my experience. 

But even suppose this is true and does contribute to male frustration, it seems a disease without a cure. Maybe treatment, ie maybe if society was more sympathies after the fact. But I don't see anything changing the basic facts if they are actually factual.

It's definitely not a myth, but it may be an outdated observance, I can't speak from much personal experience with millenials and their sexual politics, whether the age old dynamic of "the chase" being men pursuing women is dead, and women now pursue men as often as the reverse..  

[Conflicting Thought]

29 minutes ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Yes both parties have to consent. Of course. That doesn't mean that often the final say isn't in the hands of the woman. If her decision is forced or its not mutual then clearly its assault. I'm not sure why you think I'm saying something different.

What do you mean by "final say"....i find this kind of strange...if the sexual relation is consensual then both the man and the woman "final say" is yes. If the final say of the man or woman is no, then its not consensual.

[Liffguard]

37 minutes ago, James Arryn said:

 He is rather pepetuing the myth that men have much more active sexual appetites or less sexual discretion, which is kindof a bizarre supply/demand argument re:power. 

Eh, if I'm being extremely charitable I see it more as him saying that whilst men and women don't have any real difference in sexual appetite, society as a whole still expects men to be more proactive about it in general.

I'd say that this is kinda true? But it's as much a product of demonisation of female sexuality as it about expectations placed on men.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

3 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

It's definitely not a myth, but it may be an outdated observance, I can't speak from much personal experience with millenials and their sexual politics, whether the age old dynamic of "the chase" being men pursuing women is dead, and women now pursue men as often as the reverse..  

I'm not sure its a myth or outdated. I think Online Dating has made the trend more extreme because of the possibilities of technology.

A funny difference is how men and women often use something like Tinder. I can watch my males friends use it and they will basically say yes to any women who is reasonably attractive, because for them it is pretty much a numbers game. They know they are going to be rejected 90% of the time, and would consider sleeping with most.

My female friends will either say no to most men, or pick out little details they noticed which will make them reject the guy out of hand. Like if they don't like his trousers or if hes going skiing and they don't like skiing. Silly things like that. 

That pretty much sums up dating for men and women. Most women will be able to have a large amount of men pursue her for sex and so will have to choose which ones she finds acceptable, mostly rejecting all of them (it doesn't help that men will chance their arm with anyone more attractive than them just in case). She will be very picky and choosy about who she wants to go out with, and that makes sense. Dating can be hazardous for women and their are loads of jerks out there. But she is still the one doing the choosing. 

 

[Theda Baratheon]

I think some good discussion could come of this in the dating thread as well. 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

16 minutes ago, Liffguard said:

Eh, if I'm being extremely charitable I see it more as him saying that whilst men and women don't have any real difference in sexual appetite, society as a whole still expects men to be more proactive about it in general.

I'd say that this is kinda true? But it's as much a product of demonisation of female sexuality as it about expectations placed on men.

I think it also comes down to a question of biology. Women are always taking more of a risk by sleeping with a man than the other way around. So while I think sexual appetites are pretty much even ( In fact I'm convinced women's are generally higher), women are simply always going to be unlikely to just go sleep with any man because of the dangers involved.

[mormont]

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

Please, I would ask that you refrain from reading into my intentions with what I am saying.

No problem. I will refrain from doing this: in fact, I have refrained from doing it to date. I've only looked at what you have actually said.

Quote

My posts are merely observations. I'm talking about the mens rights movement and why feminism is rejected by them. Go back a couple of pages if you missed it.

I didn't miss it, no. I get that you're characterising a point of view and not necessarily saying you agree with it, although there are very strong indications that you at least consider it a valid point of view rooted in facts - despite several of us questioning that factual basis.

Quote

I'm not complaining, I have been through a phase of frustration in my early years and then learnt the realities of life and am certainly not frustrated or unhappy now as I see how the sexual dynamics of things work.

How the sexual dynamics of things work is that two people consent and, as PsicoNny points out, that means nobody has the 'final say'.

The perception around some of those sexual dynamics is the problem, and it's the poison that is hurting both women and men. The Red pill guys were sold a lie and are now blaming the people who were lied about, not the people who told the lie. All too common these days.

Quote

But ask any group of women who should pay for the first date and you'll mostly get the answer of the man.

Not any group of women I know.

Again, you're treating your own experiences as universal and this gives you an illusion of objectivity. You do it again with the post about Tinder.

1 hour ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

I'll repeat, I'm not saying men deserve consent at all. I don't want anyone to read that into it. Merely that men are always going to be the one pursuing and in that case women are holding the cards.

Maybe you're not saying it, but to repeat, that final sentence is a lot closer to saying it than you appear to think it is.

[Liffguard]

19 minutes ago, mormont said:

Maybe you're not saying it, but to repeat, that final sentence is a lot closer to saying it than you appear to think it is.

Again, being charitable, I think what he's trying to say is that whilst consent is always required by both parties, a man's consent is generally assumed to already exist. If you subscribe to the view that men must take the proactive role in the vast majority of cases, then if a man doesn't consent then he simply doesn't approach in the first place, and therefore the interaction for which consent would be required doesn't take place at all. Under this paradigm men give consent by asking for sex, and women then choose to give or withold their own consent by answering.

Not a view I personally subscribe to, by the way.

 

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

9 hours ago, Liffguard said:

Again, being charitable, I think what he's trying to say is that whilst consent is always required by both parties, a man's consent is generally assumed to already exist. If you subscribe to the view that men must take the proactive role in the vast majority of cases, then if a man doesn't consent then he simply doesn't approach in the first place, and therefore the interaction for which consent would be required doesn't take place at all. Under this paradigm men give consent by asking for sex, and women then choose to give or withold their own consent by answering.

Not a view I personally subscribe to, by the way.

 

Yes agree, sort of

anyway I'm not just pulling this stuff out of my arse. The sexes use tinder differently

and it illustrates how sexual dynamic work in the real world rather well:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/difference-in-how-men-and-women-use-tinder-2016-7

 

And again, while mormont might not agree with my observations id suggest he talks to more women as surveys suggest most women think men should pay on dates

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/amp.usatoday.com/story/16195739/

[Michael Seswatha Jordan]

I am (well was, when dating was a part of my life) very quiet, and not a pursuer, so that say when it came to dating. More often than not, I was approached by the woman with the offer of a date or a one-night stand. I find in very funny when I see guys use pick up lines and the like to try and woo a woman. I think more than anything want a woman wants is confidence. Confidence in who you are and having not the need to use corny pick up lines, to me, it's like begging. I always found that if you listened and truly took interest in a woman and her interests it made getting a date that much easier. But, as to whether men are the primary chasers, I think that is wrong and outdated. Women are just as aggressive and flurtashish as men. I think the field is split 50/50 nowadays. Thing is, most men who are chasers, are clowns, IMHO. I've felt very bad for them and their horrible pick up lines and come ons. And, nothing is more fun than watching that women turn him down in a heartbeat. I love it.

When it comes to dating, just be you. As a male, my advice would be to listen and take interest. It doesn't matter who does the chasing, just that it hopefully leads to love.

[baxus]

13 hours ago, Theda Baratheon said:

Because it's obviously not true that all men hate marriage and that all women love it - I've never thought about it as part of my future in my whole life. 

It's like any other stereotype out there - a conclusion drawn from a poorly chosen sample.

12 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

How is it baffling? In general its women who hold all the cards when it comes to sex, its them who decides when and where it happens. All men can do is try and win the woman's approval and most don't ever get it. This means that most men end up being harshly rejected over and over.

This just becomes a way of life for men and is one of the reasons they end up frustrated and often just disengage from romance altogether. Why some men because forced celibate or go completely in the other direction by being creepy lotharios.  I think its not something women ever consider or even notice.

Are you saying that you'd have sex with any woman that would have you?

Everything you are saying in this post sounds exactly like an excuse men use when asked why they have no girlfriends. It's easier to point fingers to ALL women than to consider what you might improve to catch their attention.

While we're at it, do you think that every girl/woman gets attention from boys/men? It could easily be argued that women have it worse. Let me put it this way, the impression I get is there are a lot more beautiful and successful women willing to give plain looking but smart and funny men a chance than the other way around.

11 hours ago, Channel4s-JonSnow said:

A funny difference is how men and women often use something like Tinder. I can watch my males friends use it and they will basically say yes to any women who is reasonably attractive, because for them it is pretty much a numbers game. They know they are going to be rejected 90% of the time, and would consider sleeping with most.

My female friends will either say no to most men, or pick out little details they noticed which will make them reject the guy out of hand. Like if they don't like his trousers or if hes going skiing and they don't like skiing. Silly things like that. 

That pretty much sums up dating for men and women. Most women will be able to have a large amount of men pursue her for sex and so will have to choose which ones she finds acceptable, mostly rejecting all of them (it doesn't help that men will chance their arm with anyone more attractive than them just in case). She will be very picky and choosy about who she wants to go out with, and that makes sense. Dating can be hazardous for women and their are loads of jerks out there. But she is still the one doing the choosing. 

Once again, most women will definitely not have a large amount of men pursue them. It's a myth perpetuated by men with low standards who, ironically, ignore majority of women who are not up to their imagined standard of beauty.

Women are well within their rights to be "doing the choosing". They are under no obligation to have sex with a guy they don't like, no matter how "silly" their reason may seem to you or how frustrating men feel when rejected.