Lost Melnibonean Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 28 minutes ago, velo-knight said: Yes, I am. I also tend to think the captive's name was Brandon Stark, because of the particular wording George used at the end of the execution / sacrifice. Given that Old Nan associated a Brandon Stark with the Night's King, this would tie things together quite nicely. A number of readers also think that the Night's King story is somehow a story predating, immediately following, or concurrent with the Long Night, instead of being separate legends from the age of heroes. I think the last scene is George showing us a pivotal moment that shaped the history of Westeros forever to follow. The way the scene lingers on it, and uses such striking imagery, and higher detail than the previous very old images, implies that it's very important. I agree that the vision is extremely important, especially as it will tie in with the final act of the saga. But I don't think the specific identity of those two individuals is important. It shows that human sacrifice feeds the old gods, and Bloodraven tells us the old gods, through the greenseers, are fighting the Others. Thus, human sacrifice will be necessary to fight the Others. The vision almost certainly takes place at Winterfell. Does that jibe with what little we know about the legend of the Night's King? After The George gives us the tale of the seventy-nine sentinals, he gives us the tale of the Night's King... Quote The gathering gloom put Bran in mind of another of Old Nan’s stories, the tale of Night’s King. He had been the thirteenth man to lead the Night’s Watch, she said; a warrior who knew no fear. “And that was the fault in him,” she would add, “for all men must know fear.” A woman was his downfall; a woman glimpsed from atop the Wall, with skin as white as the moon and eyes like blue stars. Fearing nothing, he chased her and caught her and loved her, though her skin was cold as ice, and when he gave his seed to her he gave his soul as well. He brought her back to the Nightfort and proclaimed her a queen and himself her king, and with strange sorceries he bound his Sworn Brothers to his will. For thirteen years they had ruled, Night’s King and his corpse queen, till finally the Stark of Winterfell and Joramun of the wildlings had joined to free the Watch from bondage. After his fall, when it was found he had been sacrificing to the Others, all records of Night’s King had been destroyed, his very name forbidden. “Some say he was a Bolton,” Old Nan would always end. “Some say a Magnar out of Skagos, some say Umber, Flint, or Norrey. Some would have you think he was a Woodfoot, from them who ruled Bear Island before the ironmen came. He never was. He was a Stark, the brother of the man who brought him down.” She always pinched Bran on the nose then, he would never forget it. “He was a Stark of Winterfell, and who can say? Mayhaps his name was Brandon. Mayhaps he slept in this very bed in this very room.” Bran IV, Storm 56 From this tale we see that a watchman set himself up as a king, with his seat at the Nightfort, after he had become ensorceled by a female Other. He sacrificed to the Others, presumably like Craster, and he was eventually brought down by the Lord of Stark and the King-Beyond-the-Wall. Old Nan suggests that there might have been a kinslaying element involved, but as the passage below suggests, this may have just been a flourish for young Bran's entertainment. Although the Night's King is referred to in passing a few more times, we don't learn anything else in the novels. We do get a little clarification in The World of Ice and Fire... Quote The oldest of these tales concern the legendary Night’s King, the thirteenth Lord Commander of the Night’s Watch, who was alleged to have bedded a sorceress pale as a corpse and declared himself a king. For thirteen years the Night’s King and his “corpse queen” ruled together, before King of Winter, Brandon the Breaker, (in alliance, it is said, with the King-Beyond-the-Wall, Joramun) brought them down. Thereafter, he obliterated the Night’s King’s very name from memory. In the Citadel, the archmaesters largely dismiss these tales—though some allow that there may have been a Lord Commander who attempted to carve out a kingdom for himself in the earliest days of the Watch. Some suggest that perhaps the corpse queen was a woman of the Barrowlands, a daughter of the Barrow King who was then a power in his own right, and oft associated with graves. The Night’s King has been said to have been variously a Bolton, a Woodfoot, an Umber, a Flint, a Norrey, or even a Stark, depending on where the tale is told. Like all tales, it takes on the attributes that make it most appealing to those who tell it. The World of Ice and Fire The ASOIAF character that bears the strongest association to the Night’s King is King Stannis, who will claim the Nightfort as his royal seat soon after Bran recalls Old Nan's tale. He appears to have been ensorceled by a pale woman. And although we don't have a connection with the Others, he has sacrificed and made those shadowbabies, and he just might be fixing to sacrifice his daughter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 14 hours ago, Magnar, P.I. said: Was just re-reading GoT and found this near the beginning, when Jon is saying goodbye to Arya and bestows Needle unto her. We know that both Arya and John have more of the Stark look about them than the rest of the children, so this similarity would seem to lend credence to the idea that this youth from the vision is a Stark or has Stark blood. Yeah, Arya and Jon's eyes are grey, and quite dark when compared to all the other Stark kids who have the Tully blue eyes. But I get what you're saying, and I do think Brandon Snow is a very good candidate for this vision. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Brewtown Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 On 1/19/2017 at 6:26 PM, Adam Yozza said: Ser Rodrik isn't a commander I'll grant you, and he messed up defending Winterfell. But he was Master at Arms, not Captain of the Guard. His job was to train people how to fight, not defend castle's. I'm going to disagree a little here. Rodrik was made Castellan, and remember that he did route Dagmer Cleftjaw & his forces at Torrhen's Square. Also, Rodrik basically had Theon in a hopeless position before the Bolton's betrayal. I don't think you can blame Rodrik anymore than Robb or any other Northern Lord, and Rodrik actually had a demonstrable victory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Brewtown Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 Sorry that was supposed to be posted in the Northern Lords topic - I have no idea how that just happened Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 7 hours ago, Lord of Brewtown said: Sorry that was supposed to be posted in the Northern Lords topic - I have no idea how that just happened I was wondering if I'd missed a part of the convo! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valyrian Spoon Posted January 25, 2017 Share Posted January 25, 2017 No evidence to support it, but I've wondered if the Guy at the sacrifice is Bran the builder and the sacrifice is like a "blessing" on the ground he chose to settle on before any settlement was built at Winterfell's location. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 On 1/23/2017 at 6:49 AM, Clegane'sPup said: 1)He saw two children play fighting. After that the glimpses came faster and faster, till Bran was feeling lost and dizzy. 2)He saw a pregnant woman emerge from the black pool who begged for a son to who would avenge her. 3)A brown haired girl kisses the lips of a young knight as tall as Hodor. 4)A dark eyed youth making arrows from the branches of the weirwood. 5)Tall and hard lords, stern men in fur and chain mail. 6)A bearded man, a captive, a white haired woman. The woman slit the captives throat with a bronze sickle. The first vision was probably Benjen and Lyanna. The second could be a pregnant Jeyne Westerling praying in the Godswood of some place. The third vision may have something to do with Dunk and Egg, though I haven't read those books yet. The fourth is possibly Brandon Snow, Torhen Stark's (The King Who Knelt Torhen Stark) bastard brother who offered to cross the Trident in the night and slay Aegon the Conqueror's three dragons. The fifth, once again not a clue, and the sixth may have something to do with the Night's King 8,000 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 24 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: The first vision was probably Benjen and Lyanna. The second could be a pregnant Jeyne Westerling praying in the Godswood of some place. The third vision may have something to do with Dunk and Egg, though I haven't read those books yet. The fourth is possibly Brandon Snow, Torhen Stark's (The King Who Knelt Torhen Stark) bastard brother who offered to cross the Trident in the night and slay Aegon the Conqueror's three dragons. The fifth, once again not a clue, and the sixth may have something to do with the Night's King 8,000 years ago. The visions go backwards in time in chronological order, so it has to be from before Lyanna and Benjen were kids. And since you haven't read D&E I'm not gonna say anything other than, "are you mad? Go read those novellas asap!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted May 31, 2017 Share Posted May 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: And since you haven't read D&E I'm not gonna say anything other than, "are you mad? Go read those novellas asap!" Sorry I just haven't gotten around to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clegane'sPup Posted May 31, 2017 Author Share Posted May 31, 2017 16 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: The visions go backwards in time in chronological order, I agree with this. 10 minutes ago, Agent 326 said: Sorry I just haven't gotten around to it. I did not know that the dunk and egg short stories existed until I visited this site. I went to the library to check out the anthologies. Mr. Martin made a book deal to combine them in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. If you are interested it is worth a peak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent 326 Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 6 hours ago, Clegane'sPup said: I did not know that the dunk and egg short stories existed until I visited this site. I went to the library to check out the anthologies. Mr. Martin made a book deal to combine them in A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms. If you are interested it is worth a peak. Thanks for that I wasn't sure what I was looking for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luddagain Posted June 1, 2017 Share Posted June 1, 2017 I I think that we can assume the visions go backward in time and that since the final vision is of a very young tree and therefore Bran sees the WHOLE history of Winterfell. Now I suspect that EVERY tree requires a human sacrifice in order to grow. The faces on the tree reflect the faces of the victim. Some will have been willing or semi willing sacrifices others will be people captured in war. Consistent with much ancient mythology I suspect that the "sacrifice" must be done by a woman (probably a priestess of some kind) with a sickle shaped blade. This is pretty bog standard "moon" mythology. Thus the person sacrificed is the spirit of Winterfell. He is probably a Stark and I suspect the women was also a Stark and that BOTH will be in the genetic line of the Starks - Certainly Ned and Jon, since Ned's mother was also a Stark and Jon's mother is probably Lyanna. As to which Stark it is unclear - except it needed to be a long long time ago - it could be someone at the time of the Long Night and the fight against Winter or it could be just say 150 years later to get to the Night King (only 13 commanders and say an average of 10-12 years each). I do rather suspect that the person sacrificed was named either Brandon Stark OR Jon Snow. For what it is worth I think that there is a bitter sweet foreshadowing of Winterfell's rebirth and a NEW weirwood tree. The human sacrifice has been made. Recall the final scene for Bran at Winterfell. A dying Luwin begs Osha for a favour. A wilding woman probably slices the throat of a willing but dying Luwin. In a sense he gives his life to allow Winterfell to be reborn. Recall that Luwin is one of the very, very few Maesters who has the link for knowledge of magic and the old ways - he seemed to believe in it when young but gave up on ot during his time as maester. This suggests (along with his name) that he was from the North and even a Stark. he could have been a Luwin Snow or even a Luwin Stark - one of the sons of all those missing Stark lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainstroke Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 On 6/1/2017 at 8:01 AM, Luddagain said: I I think that we can assume the visions go backward in time and that since the final vision is of a very young tree and therefore Bran sees the WHOLE history of Winterfell. Now I suspect that EVERY tree requires a human sacrifice in order to grow. The faces on the tree reflect the faces of the victim. Some will have been willing or semi willing sacrifices others will be people captured in war. Happened on this by chance, but the theory that weirwoods need sacrifices to grow is highly plausible. I can't recall a single instance of a young weirwood in recent times and most of them seem to have stopped growing. But remember Whitertree beyond the wall. There seems to have been much more sacrifices and recent sacrifices there and that tree is absolutely massive. Since blood sacrifices have stopped the trees stopped growing and the young ones might even have died. Sorry for the off topic rant, but I find it interesting. ^^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GloubieBoulga Posted November 22, 2017 Share Posted November 22, 2017 8 hours ago, Mainstroke said: I can't recall a single instance of a young weirwood in recent times and most of them seem to have stopped growing At the Whispers there one, during a Brienne's chapter (AFFC). Also in Arianne II TWOW (preview), there are severals in the woods, young and wild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainstroke Posted November 23, 2017 Share Posted November 23, 2017 15 hours ago, GloubieBoulga said: At the Whispers there one, during a Brienne's chapter (AFFC). Also in Arianne II TWOW (preview), there are severals in the woods, young and wild. Ok, thank you. I don't have much insight to the TWOW preview chapters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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