Heresy 195 and the Mists of Time

[hiemal]

11 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'd say that's certainly got to be a strong possibility. Its what the residents of the House of the Undying were striving for and I think that the same is true of Mel. It just comes with a price

That's why I suggested that the Doom of Valyria was a deliberate act and that the "demons" are the intended outcome. Remember that Targaryen aspiration to become dragons - fire made flesh

And might a certain Bloodstone Emperor's transformation into R'hlorr have been their inspiration?

[Black Crow]

8 minutes ago, hiemal said:

My guess is that the Doom of Valyria caused the WW to awaken and that it has simply taken them this long to rub the sleep from their eyes so to speak.

I'm still inclined to look at "Rhaegar's comet" as a potential trigger. After all we have every expectation of Spring, then along comes the comet and whoops, Winter returns.

[hiemal]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I'm still inclined to look at "Rhaegar's comet" as a potential trigger. After all we have every expectation of Spring, then along comes the comet and whoops, Winter returns.

Comets are usually the heralds of change, though, not the agents. I do have an elaborate tinfoil on R'hlorr, the Great Other and comets and their positions relative to the sun but it's pretty vague at this point and involves a whole lot of crazy things like weirwoods corrupted with oily black stone and moon-explodey.

My current other best guess is that they represent a satanic inversion of the hermetic saying "as above, so below" so that instead of the Heavens revealing the order of the universe to men, men are imposing their will in some way on reality that is being reflected in the heavens. Which would beg the question of what happened to summon the comet that seemingly shone for the doomed Aegon's birth.

 I hadn't thought about that comet in those terms before, though, so I'll be a while playing with the possibilities.

[hiemal]

On 2/17/2017 at 6:53 PM, Lady Dyanna said:

Which then leads to the opposing idea. If the Valyrians are now transformed into immortal demons of fire, just like Mel is flesh turning fire, then are the Others humans transformed into immortal demons of ice? Was Valyria the end result of that transformation? Are we looking at an equal but opposite cataclysm in the North? 

Probably.

To further confuse the issue I would like to offer up the Undying of Qarth and the enveloped greenseers as another set of opposing of quasi-immortals. The shade-of-the-evening trees that surround the House of the Undying are, I suspect, weirwood trees that have been corrupted with Oily Black Stone and the blue heart was a rudimentary proto-deity that sufficed to provide some actual power to the warlocks as well as some pitiful imitation of immortality to the Undying themselves.

Obviously I don't think that those greenseers who are being sustained and gradually absorbed by the network of weirwood roots are abusing their own situation as I think all of the other three were or are. I suspect that their relationship with the weirnet is what the other three have perverted for their own ends.

 

[Black Crow]

9 hours ago, hiemal said:

Comets are usually the heralds of change, though, not the agents.

No, I'm not really a believer either, in comets depositing a shower of magic pixie dust from their tails but there's clearly a connection of some kind

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, hiemal said:

Probably.

To further confuse the issue I would like to offer up the Undying of Qarth and the enveloped greenseers as another set of opposing of quasi-immortals. ...

Obviously I don't think that those greenseers who are being sustained and gradually absorbed by the network of weirwood roots are abusing their own situation as I think all of the other three were or are. I suspect that their relationship with the weirnet is what the other three have perverted for their own ends.

 

I think that in all of this the phrase that "All men must die" is not without significance

[LynnS]

3 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that in all of this the phrase that "All men must die" is not without significance

Hmmm, yes.  I wonder about the origin story of the FM; if the slaves that toiled under the earth, in the fiery pits, were transformed by fire in some way, to enable them to inhabit such conditions, prolonging their lives in an unnatural way, such that they begged for death.

[hiemal]

6 hours ago, Black Crow said:

I think that in all of this the phrase that "All men must die" is not without significance

"Valar Morghulis"- like the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics rendered in valyrian, "The mortality in a closed system always increases- any local decrease in mortality must be countered by an increase elsewhere."

[Melifeather]

10 hours ago, hiemal said:

Probably.

To further confuse the issue I would like to offer up the Undying of Qarth and the enveloped greenseers as another set of opposing of quasi-immortals. The shade-of-the-evening trees that surround the House of the Undying are, I suspect, weirwood trees that have been corrupted with Oily Black Stone and the blue heart was a rudimentary proto-deity that sufficed to provide some actual power to the warlocks as well as some pitiful imitation of immortality to the Undying themselves.

Obviously I don't think that those greenseers who are being sustained and gradually absorbed by the network of weirwood roots are abusing their own situation as I think all of the other three were or are. I suspect that their relationship with the weirnet is what the other three have perverted for their own ends.

 

There's no reason to believe that the black barked trees that produce shade of the evening are corrupted weirwoods. They are their own type of tree, although no name is given it could be either ironwood or ebony. The door on the House of Black and White are made of two kinds of wood: white weirwood and black ebony.

[Matthew.]

7 hours ago, Black Crow said:

No, I'm not really a believer either, in comets depositing a shower of magic pixie dust from their tails but there's clearly a connection of some kind

In a world where magic is real and sacrifice has power, I think a potential connection would be that the fanatics of the world use things that they perceive as signs and heralds as their motivation to pursue magic.

We can use Melisandre as an example--based on certain broad signs, she believes that she lives in an important age, and based on that belief she is actively attempting to force a prophecy to come true.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that there is no actual magic in comets, and that the real significance is that you see a huge uptick in the amount of sacrifice and attempted magic whenever there's a comet, particularly if the coming of a comet is the sort of thing you might be able to glimpse in your flames.

I believe the way the comet is treated in aCoK is a good example of how belief can drive action--we see several different interpretations of what the comet means, but everyone seems to agree that it's important, with some characters even buying into the idea that the comet was sent for them personally.

[Black Crow]

5 minutes ago, Matthew. said:

In a world where magic is real and sacrifice has power, I think a potential connection would be that the fanatics of the world use things that they perceive as signs and heralds as their motivation to pursue magic.

We can use Melisandre as an example--based on certain broad signs, she believes that she lives in an important age, and based on that belief she is actively attempting to force a prophecy to come true.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that there is no actual magic in comets, and that the real significance is that you see a huge uptick in the amount of sacrifice and attempted magic whenever there's a comet, particularly if the coming of a comet is the sort of thing you might be able to glimpse in your flames.

I believe the way the comet is treated in aCoK is a good example of how belief can drive action--we see several different interpretations of what the comet means, but everyone seems to agree that it's important, with some characters even buying into the idea that the comet was sent for them personally.

a signal to open the gates rather than an opener in itself

[Melifeather]

1 hour ago, Matthew. said:

In a world where magic is real and sacrifice has power, I think a potential connection would be that the fanatics of the world use things that they perceive as signs and heralds as their motivation to pursue magic.

We can use Melisandre as an example--based on certain broad signs, she believes that she lives in an important age, and based on that belief she is actively attempting to force a prophecy to come true.

Personally, I'm inclined to believe that there is no actual magic in comets, and that the real significance is that you see a huge uptick in the amount of sacrifice and attempted magic whenever there's a comet, particularly if the coming of a comet is the sort of thing you might be able to glimpse in your flames.

I believe the way the comet is treated in aCoK is a good example of how belief can drive action--we see several different interpretations of what the comet means, but everyone seems to agree that it's important, with some characters even buying into the idea that the comet was sent for them personally.

I agree as well, and there is some evidence to support this idea with regards to a story about a young Rhaegar. After reading something he presented himself to the Targaryen master at arms and declared, "it seems I am to be a warrrior" ...or something similar, as well as the Targaryen belief in a prince that was promised, and Rhaegar first thinking he was the prince and then changing his belief to his son being the prince. I realize that this is prophecy, but I might point out that Rhaegar was looking for and reading "signs" which indicates that the timing of the red comet was likely involved.

[hiemal]

4 hours ago, Feather Crystal said:

There's no reason to believe that the black barked trees that produce shade of the evening are corrupted weirwoods. They are their own type of tree, although no name is given it could be either ironwood or ebony. The door on the House of Black and White are made of two kinds of wood: white weirwood and black ebony.

I agree that there is no compelling reason for anyone to believe as I do, but I find simplifying the magical flora from two either alien or magically altered species of flora (one with white bark, red leaves, and mind-altering sap and the other with black bark, blue leaves, and mind-altering sap) to only one species with two variants a worthy goal and that is what tinfoil is for, after all, making connections which are satisfyingly crazy but retain explanatory  power.

 

[Black Crow]

10 minutes ago, hiemal said:

I agree that there is no compelling reason for anyone to believe as I do, but I find simplifying the magical flora from two either alien or magically altered species of flora (one with white bark, red leaves, and mind-altering sap and the other with black bark, blue leaves, and mind-altering sap) to only one species with two variants a worthy goal and that is what tinfoil is for, after all, making connections which are satisfyingly crazy but retain explanatory  power.

 

I'd be inclined to keep it simple and look to the same opposite but equal theme we encounter all the way through this happy tale of poor but honest country folk.

[hiemal]

22 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

I'd be inclined to keep it simple and look to the same opposite but equal theme we encounter all the way through this happy tale of poor but honest country folk.

Symmetry vs. simplification. It makes sense, of course, and remains the saner theory.

Hopefully at some point the entire truth will actually be revealed. It's exhausting, sometimes, trying to alchemically change tinfoil into gold.

[Black Crow]

23 hours ago, hiemal said:

Symmetry vs. simplification. It makes sense, of course, and remains the saner theory.

Hopefully at some point the entire truth will actually be revealed. It's exhausting, sometimes, trying to alchemically change tinfoil into gold.

I'm not sure that the entire truth will ever be revealed. There's an awful lot of stuff - and an an awful lot of contradictions - which is unlikely to amount to anything more than the myths and legends of GRRM's very conscious world building. Stuff like the black stones may have no direct relevance to the present story, but may at best form the basis of pastiche stories by writers a couple of generations from now.

In deciding what may or may not be relevant to the present I'm very much inclined to confine speculation to what appears in the main body of the text and leave aside anything which only really appears in the World Book.

[The Dragon has three heads]

Late to the party.  Apologies!

We must also remember information or lists or rocks wth LC #1-13 would be effectively expunged from all memory.

We are explicitly told after the NK he was erased from history.  Which with now written records is relatively easy.  Kill everyone who was involved and start over.

So by starting a fresh 'list' at #14 Sams list really is 14(ish) to 674ish, right?

 

[Brad Stark]

1 hour ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Late to the party.  Apologies!

We must also remember information or lists or rocks wth LC #1-13 would be effectively expunged from all memory.

We are explicitly told after the NK he was erased from history.  Which with now written records is relatively easy.  Kill everyone who was involved and start over.

So by starting a fresh 'list' at #14 Sams list really is 14(ish) to 674ish, right?

 

This is part of what doesn't fit for me.   He was expunged from history more than 5000 years before there was history.

[The Dragon has three heads]

5000 Is a bit off stretch but I take your point.

So where then has this oral history come from? If we assume nans tale is a widely told story in the north it stands to reason it has survived through its/his/their infamy.

Further it shows that the efforts to expunge the NK from the events of the past have in essence failed suffice to say the PR he's gotten is not dissimilar to Rhaegars i.e. Bad bad bad.

It's this idea that the Nightfort stood alone for a thousand years before more castles were needed.

Why.  

Why were they needed if the LN was so far in the past by this point.

 Also if the NF was the first castle.  Did it once have walls? It's size is often spoken of as huge, but is it as large as say Moat Cailin when complete? or one of the five forts? Maybe clutching at straws but it seems odd that at the time the biggest castle in Westeros was alone in the North in the shadow of the wall with no way over or through said wall except the weir gate.

 

[Black Crow]

11 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

Late to the party.  Apologies!

We must also remember information or lists or rocks wth LC #1-13 would be effectively expunged from all memory.

We are explicitly told after the NK he was erased from history.  Which with now written records is relatively easy.  Kill everyone who was involved and start over.

So by starting a fresh 'list' at #14 Sams list really is 14(ish) to 674ish, right?

 

Not necessarily, all it requires is a blank space .

Seriously though you need to remember that there is no original list. The oldest one, with those 674 names on it, was written down or rather reconstructed by an Andal septon long afterwards and as Sam basically says we have no idea how much of it is imaginary.

As Sam points out all that actually survives from way back is folklore and runic inscriptions. In terms of the latter what we conspicuously don't have is the equivalent of one of those boards bearing the name of each king, president or chairman and his years of office. If it did exist there would be no reason to stop using it, and at best there may have been partial lists to tell us that Albert came before Zebulon, but nobody recorded who came after Zebulon or whether Albert was the one who fought the wildlings at Short Lake or the one who was killed by white walkers at the 14th milestone, or indeed whether the two were one and the same or whether neither was the man on that particular stone,

Its not a mystery to get tangled up in and neither is the question of whether the 13th Lord Commander is included in the 674 names. The real point of Sam's statement is that the sources are not reliable.