Heresy 195 and the Mists of Time

[Black Crow]

6 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

5000 Is a bit off stretch but I take your point.

So where then has this oral history come from? If we assume nans tale is a widely told story in the north it stands to reason it has survived through its/his/their infamy.

Further it shows that the efforts to expunge the NK from the events of the past have in essence failed suffice to say the PR he's gotten is not dissimilar to Rhaegars i.e. Bad bad bad.

It's this idea that the Nightfort stood alone for a thousand years before more castles were needed.

Why.  

Why were they needed if the LN was so far in the past by this point and gates had to be mad more every castle to follow it.

 Also if the NF was the first castle.  Did it once have walls? It's size is often spoken of as huge, but is it as large as say Moat Cailin when complete? or one of the five forts? Maybe clutching at straws but it seems odd that at the time the biggest castle in Westeros was alone in the North in the shadow of the wall with no way over or through said wall except the weir gate.

 

The whole point of this argument, this thread, and indeed Sam's stumbling explanation, is that the history of Westeros as told at the start is mince and that it probably isn't anywhere as old as people think

As to the Nightfort, the clue we've got lies in the statement that the black gate is as old as the wall. We can therefore postulate that there has been something on the site of the Nightfort from the beginning. It was just a touch less impressive in size - have a look at the Winterfell thread. For a long time afterwards there were no other known castles on the Wall, but then along came Castle Black and presumably the other castles as well. Why? The clue to that lies in the huge prison in the Nightfort, which would suggest that the castles were raised to accommodate Andal prisoners and that would in turn explain the Andalisation of the Watch.

[Melifeather]

My current thought about the magical Black Gate is that it offers protection when entering or exiting the underworld. It must have some significance if the door itself asks "who are you?" before opening. 

[Brad Stark]

The door itself tells us a few things.  If the Wall is older than the Watch and used by the Children to defend against the first men, as I suspect,  then either the door is newer,  or it has been reprogrammed.  

The door is obviously magic and made of weirwood.  This is unusual in that it seems similar to the magic the Children use, but I don’t see them cutting down weirwoods for carpentry projects.  I suspect the door was made by men who knew the Children's magic. 

It is strange you have to say the words to pass.  Coldhands obviously had other reasons he can't pass.  This means the door guarded against humans who didn't know the words.

There are easier ways to pass the Wall now, but I think we can assume at one point there wasn't another way.

[Black Crow]

Depends. Just because there was a portal - a gateway between the realms - there needn't originally have been a magical door. What's important about this one is that it requires a living brother of the Nights Watch to open it. Coldhands was a brother and knows the words but can't pass. We can therefore safely ascribe the locking of the gate to the Watch and while Bran at first sight assumes the door to be white weirwood, it actually turns out to be something quite different and so not attributable to the three-fingered tree huggers.

A reasonable interpretation therefore would be that the tree huggers created the gateway and the Night's King guarded it, but when he was overthrown the new Watch sealed it up with their own magic door.

I did long ago suggest that the door itself might be the Nights King

[JNR]

16 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

It's this idea that the Nightfort stood alone for a thousand years before more castles were needed.

Why.  

Well, there is actually no reference to the Nightfort being twice as old as all the other castles.  That is just a mistake that is constantly repeated in Heresy, for some reason I've never been able to figure out.

What the canon says is much simpler:

• The Nightfort was the first castle on the Wall

• The Nightfort is twice as old as Castle Black

When was the second castle on the Wall built?  We don't know.  It could have been one year after the Nightfort was built, or fifty years, or five hundred years.  We also don't know its name. 

21 hours ago, The Dragon has three heads said:

We must also remember information or lists or rocks wth LC #1-13 would be effectively expunged from all memory.

We are explicitly told after the NK he was erased from history.  Which with now written records is relatively easy.  Kill everyone who was involved and start over.

So by starting a fresh 'list' at #14 Sams list really is 14(ish) to 674ish, right?

It's possible it happened that way.  What the myths claim, though, is simply that all reference to the Night's King were expunged, and that was that... as opposed to all his predecessors also being expunged.

Re the number of LCs Sam found, that's a matter of some debate. 

A popular idea in Heresy is that the number (674) and the names were just... made up out of thin air by a practical joker or similar. 

Usually this is justified by saying something like "the list of kings in Britain or Ireland is full of mythical names," and then drawing a parallel.

The thing is, kings are heads of state.  The whole point of lists like that is to include mythical names to add grandeur to the country -- for instance, the Japanese emperor list starts with gods, and England's list sometimes includes figures from mythology like Brutus, descendant of Aeneas from the Trojan War.

Also, these lists are of course made public.  That's the whole point: to glorify the country in a way everyone can see.

The LC list is a totally different matter.  There is no country, and an LC is not a king or head of state, but only an elected commander of a paramilitary body.  That's all they've ever been, even in myths.  Pretty dull stuff, really.

Furthermore, as far as we know, the LC list Sam found has no gods... no mythical figures... nor even any name Sam recognizes from history or legend.  It's just an incredibly long list of anonymous names.

And finally, the LC list is far from public.  It was stashed away in the Castle Black archives, buried as useless trivia like a billion other Watch records, including various other lists Sam found, which seem newer.  

So if the plan was to glorify the Watch by making up grand mythical names for LCs, that plan obviously totally failed.  Either somebody arbitrarily made up 674 anonymous names for no apparent reason... as well as those billion other Watch records Sam also found... or there is some sort of authenticity to it.

Sam does, of course, question the content of some of the ancient myths (eg knights riding around when there were no knights).  But that is not at all the same thing as Sam believing that the timeline of human presence in Westeros is only two or three thousand years long. This is another idea you often find in Heresy, often stated as if it were a fact, that simply doesn't exist in canon.

[Black Crow]

But yet GRRM, [the only true god in this story], is keen to tell we miserable readers that things aint what they seem in the timelines.

As to the purpose of the list or rather multiple lists of Lord Commanders, they do have a very important "public" function. To quote Sam "We say you're the 998th Lord Commander". [for the list referred to to be the oldest one there must by definition be others of more recent date] Men such as Bowen Marsh and everyone else in the Watch who expresses an opinion, believes that the Watch has guarded the Wall for 8,000 years and those lists provide the legitimacy for that belief - and as he no doubt suspects are a Manx cat job compiled precisely for that reason.

 

[Lord Wraith]

14 hours ago, Black Crow said:

Depends. Just because there was a portal - a gateway between the realms - there needn't originally have been a magical door. What's important about this one is that it requires a living brother of the Nights Watch to open it. Coldhands was a brother and knows the words but can't pass. We can therefore safely ascribe the locking of the gate to the Watch and while Bran at first sight assumes the door to be white weirwood, it actually turns out to be something quite different and so not attributable to the three-fingered tree huggers.

A reasonable interpretation therefore would be that the tree huggers created the gateway and the Night's King guarded it, but when he was overthrown the new Watch sealed it up with their own magic door.

I did long ago suggest that the door itself might be the Nights King

I would also speculate that it must be a sworn brother of the Night's Watch that swore their vows in front of the heart trees.

[Black Crow]

2 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I would also speculate that it must be a sworn brother of the Night's Watch that swore their vows in front of the heart trees.

A popular suggestion, but it depend on who placed that lock on the gate. Sam, obviously, took his vows in front of a tree and can open it, but if whoever locked it did so to block it to the allies of the Old Gods, then being a follower is unlikely to be a precondition of access.

 

[Lord Wraith]

19 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

A popular suggestion, but it depend on who placed that lock on the gate. Sam, obviously, took his vows in front of a tree and can open it, but if whoever locked it did so to block it to the allies of the Old Gods, then being a follower is unlikely to be a precondition of access.

 

True but also a good way to make sure no pesky Andal members accidently use it.

[Black Crow]

59 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

True but also a good way to make sure no pesky Andal members accidently use it.

But again that comes back to who locked it and why?

[Lord Wraith]

8 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

But again that comes back to who locked it and why?

Indeed, ultimately it depends what the door was used for... the theory I like best is that it was secret sacrifice to the Others.

[Black Crow]

9 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Indeed, ultimately it depends what the door was used for... the theory I like best is that it was secret sacrifice to the Others.

Its possible, but we're still left with the question of the identity of the sacrifice who has been changed into the door.

[Lord Wraith]

2 minutes ago, Black Crow said:

Its possible, but we're still left with the question of the identity of the sacrifice who has been changed into the door.

I got a theory concerning "Lord's right to the First Night" and Snowgate (aka bastardgate). It is also the closest fort to the Nightfort and apparently the leaders of both forts went to war over something. Craster's 19 wives paralleling the 19 forts on the Wall. Queenscrown, the Nightfort, and Whitetree are basically in a line of each other. Preston Jacobs mentioned something similar to it once but I found a few more interesting tidbits.

I'll write it up one of these days. I would find it extremely ironic if "Good Queen" Alysanne is actually responsible for the return of the Others.

If nothing else there were 10,000 men on the Wall when the Targaryen's arrived, less than 300 years later they are down to under 1,000. I mean it existed for probably thousands of years so why in the last 300 years has everything falls to shit?

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

But again that comes back to who locked it and why?

That's interesting because the Black Gate is essentially a face hung on a wall and where have we seen that before?  It glows with the light of the moon; so we could call it a 'moon door'; the same motif on the doors of the House of Black and White.  I would go so far as to say that Coldhands represents an aspect of the Faceless Men especially in contracting an oath three times from Sam for the 'life' Sam owes Coldhands.  It may be that Coldhands can't pass the door; but his presence might be required to activate the door.   He's a kind of ferryman or dark angel waiting to escort Bran to the other side.   He calls to mind Old Nan's stories of the Thing that Comes in the Night for the 'prentice boys' seen by the men of the watch, north of the Wall some time after they died, with the boys shambling along behind him.  

The symbolism of the moon door also shows up at the Eyrie where you can make the 'bad man' fly.  So what is the connection to House Arryn?  I've had the notion that the Thing that Comes in the Night; comes to the boys in their dreams and tests them in the manner that Bran was tested.  Fly or die.  His description is different for each boy, another characteristic of the FM.  So the god of many faces perhaps? The Night King and the bad man in one?

[Black Crow]

1 hour ago, Lord Wraith said:

I got a theory concerning "Lord's right to the First Night" and Snowgate (aka bastardgate). It is also the closest fort to the Nightfort and apparently the leaders of both forts went to war over something. Craster's 19 wives paralleling the 19 forts on the Wall. Queenscrown, the Nightfort, and Whitetree are basically in a line of each other. Preston Jacobs mentioned something similar to it once but I found a few more interesting tidbits.

I'll write it up one of these days. I would find it extremely ironic if "Good Queen" Alysanne is actually responsible for the return of the Others.

If nothing else there were 10,000 men on the Wall when the Targaryen's arrived, less than 300 years later they are down to under 1,000. I mean it existed for probably thousands of years so why in the last 300 years has everything falls to shit?

Save it for Heresy 196 when we start i on The Wall 

[Black Crow]

18 minutes ago, LynnS said:

The symbolism of the moon door also shows up at the Eyrie where you can make the 'bad man' fly.  So what is the connection to House Arryn?  I've had the notion that the Thing that Comes in the Night; comes to the boys in their dreams and tests them in the manner that Bran was tested.  Fly or die.  His description is different for each boy, another characteristic of the FM.  So the god of many faces perhaps? The Night King and the bad man in one?

I like that one, because we've speculated before that Bloodraven's vagueness as to whether he is the three-eyed-crow may spring from his being unaware of his own avatar.

[LynnS]

1 hour ago, Black Crow said:

I like that one, because we've speculated before that Bloodraven's vagueness as to whether he is the three-eyed-crow may spring from his being unaware of his own avatar.

It's something to think about especially the various defenses of the Eyrie and what might be implied about the Wall, the Black Gate and the various castles.  Not to mention that the Eyrie's moon door is co-located with a weirwood throne.    Westeros Wiki:

Quote

 

To reach the Eyrie, an invading army would have to overcome the Bloody Gate guarding the high road, then overcome the Gates of the Moon located at the bottom of the mountain and climb up the narrow goat trail. Under normal circumstances this would take half a day, all the while being exposed to attack from the defenders in the Eyrie and its three waycastles along the path.^[2]

• Stone, the first waycastle. The path to it is surrounded by forest. It has a massive ironbound gate. The stone walls are crowned with iron spikes and its two fat round towers raise above the keep.^[2]
• Snow, the second waycastle. The trail to it is steeper than that of Stone. It consists of a single fortified tower, a timber keep, and a stable placed behind a low wall of unmortared rock. It is nestled into the Giant's Lance so as to command the entire pathway from Stone to Snow.^[2]
• Sky, the third waycastle. The path to it is treacherous. It is open to the wind and the steps are cracked and broken from the constant freezing. Sky is a high, crescent-shaped wall of unmortared stone raised against the side of the mountain. Inside the walls are a series of ramps and a great tumble of boulders and stones of all sizes, ready to throw down or even cause a minor avalanche. There is a cavern containing a long natural hall, stables, and supplies. Handholds carved into the rock lead to the Eyrie, while earthen ramps give access to the walls.^[2] The Eyrie is located six hundred feet above this point.^[9]
•  

 

Edit: Coldhands not recognizing his own avatar is tantalizing!  He would have given up everything including his own identity to become no one.  It fits with Arya's characterization of Jaqn H'gar as a grumkin out of Old Nan's Tales.  They show up to give you three wishes but you have to beware of the third.  GRRM's version of the Monkey's Paw.  On that last wish, you open the door and 'no one' is there.

[LynnS]

On a slight tangent going back to Coldhands;  I've wondered what oath Sam had to give to pay for the life he owed.  Of course, we're never told but I don't think it's the original oath of the NW used to unlock the Black Gate.  Since Sam had to swear it to Bran, Jojen and Coldhands; might it be  something like the Crannogman's oath of fealty to the Starks?  

"I swear it by earth and water," . (to Coldhands)

"I swear it by bronze and iron,"  (to Jojen)

"I  swear it by ice and fire,"  (to Bran)

 

Pure speculation, but what else could it be?

 

[Black Crow]

I swear it by the Old Gods and the New

[Melifeather]

6 hours ago, LynnS said:

That's interesting because the Black Gate is essentially a face hung on a wall and where have we seen that before?  It glows with the light of the moon; so we could call it a 'moon door'; the same motif on the doors of the House of Black and White.  I would go so far as to say that Coldhands represents an aspect of the Faceless Men especially in contracting an oath three times from Sam for the 'life' Sam owes Coldhands.  It may be that Coldhands can't pass the door; but his presence might be required to activate the door.   He's a kind of ferryman or dark angel waiting to escort Bran to the other side.   He calls to mind Old Nan's stories of the Thing that Comes in the Night for the 'prentice boys' seen by the men of the watch, north of the Wall some time after they died, with the boys shambling along behind him.  

The symbolism of the moon door also shows up at the Eyrie where you can make the 'bad man' fly.  So what is the connection to House Arryn?  I've had the notion that the Thing that Comes in the Night; comes to the boys in their dreams and tests them in the manner that Bran was tested.  Fly or die.  His description is different for each boy, another characteristic of the FM.  So the god of many faces perhaps? The Night King and the bad man in one?

This is amazing, because I had not made the connection before between the physical flying out the moon door at the Eyrie with the third eye flying in dreams! Now that you've brought it up it cannot be unseen.

I'll add the story of the Winged Knight of the Vale during the age of Heroes who was said to have flown upon a huge falcon, and who won the Vale in a battle against the Griffin King atop the Giant's Lance. He was also said to have been married to a children of the forest who died giving birth to his son.