Questions on inheritance

[HaeSuse]

Specifically, house Lannister, and the Throne. Does being King not upjump you in your own family's line of inheritance? Meaning, Tywin's line of succession is/was:

 

(Officially, assuming Robert as parent of Cersei's kids):

1. Jaime (except for being a KG)
2. Tyrion (except he swore Tyrion would never have Casterly Rock)
3. Cersei
4. Joffrey (would be #1 heir to Casterly rock, if true parentage accepted, and not considered a bastard, and Jaime remaining KG- right?)
5. Tommen (after Joff's death, takes on the role above)
6. Myrcella
7. Kevan
8. Lancel
9. Willem
10. Martyn
11. Tygett
12. Tyrek
13. Gerion
14. Genna

 

For one, is that right, according to everyone's understanding of inheritance in the Southern (non-Dornish) houses? Eldest man first. Then his eldest son. Then that guy's eldest son. On down the line till no more sons, then insert the women of the proper generation, and so on. Right?

 

So, with Jaime a KG, and Tyrion disinherited, and Joff/Tomm/Myrcella all assumed Baratheons.... is Cersei in line to inherit Casterly Rock, while Tommen rules? And does Tommen being King of the frikkin realm NOT move him to the top of the line?

 

 

In other words.... if Robert Baratheon had lived a full life, and died of natural causes, with no war following his death.... Who would inherit Storm's End? Robert? Robert's kids? The moment Robert dies, in this alternate universe, does Joff inherit Storm's End? Or does Stannis continue to hold it? And if Stannis holds Storm's End after Robert dies, does this imply that by taking the Iron Throne, Robert Baratheon swore off all claims to lands and titles, except the actual kingship? 

 

Sorry for the rambling question. It just seems weird, and like it needs explaining. Likewise, when Tywin dies... and Kevan is dead... and Tommen is King... is Tommen also Lord of Casterly Rock? Or is it technically Cersei? Or one of Kevan's boys? Or someone else?

[cyberdirectorfreedom]

Children come before grandchildren, even male grandchildren, so Cersei is set to inherit Casterly Rock, if Tywin won't allow Tyrion to do so; after that, Cersei's children: if Robert was still alive, after Tywin's death, Cersei's inheritance of the Rock and subsequent death, I assume Joffrey would become Lord of Casterly Rock, until Robert died, at which point he would become King. If he had children at this point, the eldest would inherit Casterly Rock. If not, Tommen would.

Storm's End was Renly's seat (although it shouldn't have been, but Robert decreed; Kings can do that, and I think anyone can decide who takes their seat, if they are taking a better seat (like becoming King)), so his children would inherit (regardless of what's happening with Robert's health), unless Robert took Storm's End back, or Renly had no children. In that case, if Robert was still alive, I'm not really sure what would happen, but I think it'd be Robert's choice (although, if Renly specifies an heir, then that's who it should go to, but I assume Robert could override that, but is that because he's King, or because it was once his seat, and rightfully should still be, if he didn't give it to Renly. So, would that mean that Renly was only holding Storm's End in Robert's name, or was it really his seat? Hmm.); would Robert pass Stannis over again? Maybe. Stannis could also be dead at this point; in that case, it'd go to Robert's children.

Now, to be honest, I'm still dubious about most of this; I think it's what would happen, but I don't think it's the law, exactly. After the deaths of Tywin, Robert and Cersei, Tommen could well be King and Lord of Casterly Rock, and I don't think he'd have to give Casterly Rock to Myrcella (or whoever would inherit it after his death (I mean, it would be Myrcella at the moment, but not if he had children, or if Myrcella was dead (obviously)). I don't think there's any law preventing someone from holding two seats; it's just that there's no point, really. People tend to take the most prestigious seat for themselves (King is better than Lord, Lord of Casterly Rock is better than Lord of Duskendale (not that anyone in story would occupy those two seats)), giving the lesser seats to their family. I don't think they have to, but it serves a greater purpose for their family for them to do so, not to mention the (potentially impossible) work that would go into Lording over multiple lands (at least, if you're going to do it properly). To give the lands over to family (and not just have them rule in your name) opens up marriage opportunities and such.

Inheritance laws are touchy, though, and not terribly consistent (and often contradictory); wars have been waged over two people both claiming to be the "true" heir to a particular seat. Of course, some of these people know they don't have as good a claim, and are just trying to further their own positions and power, but not always.

And honestly, I could simply be mistaken on some of this. I apologise if I'm giving false information, but this is how I understand it.

(I don't really know how specifying an heir works, though. Can you choose your own heir if you have lawful heirs? Was Tywin allowed to overlook Tyrion's so called "rights" to Casterly Rock? Could he choose (though he obviously never would) to allow some random commoner off the street to inherit Casterly Rock, over Tyrion, Cersei, her children, Kevan, etc? They'd oppose such an idea, sure, but would he be allowed to do it? The random commoner would probably be forced out by Cersei, but would that be illegal, or just potentially difficult, if there are those who are loyal to Tywin's wishes? Is the reason that the Rock would be inherited by Tyrion (under normal circumstances) be because of actual laws preventing it from going to someone else, or because wars could easily be started over someone being overlooked? I know that (as referenced earlier) Robert passing Stannis over and giving Storm's End to Renly is a point of contention between the brothers, but Robert was King, and allowed to do as he pleased (he also gave Stannis another seat). If this was Robert's death forcing him away from being Lord of Storm's End, would he actually be allowed to specify that it goes to Renly, even though succession dictates Stannis is heir? Now, this could lead to division and possibly even a sort of civil war between the brothers, which is obviously not ideal, so he probably wouldn't, but could he?

I mean, they're called the laws of succession, so I'd venture that it's illegal to just choose an heir however you please, but Ned altered Robert's will to very specifically not dictate a specific heir. So, if he didn't change the will, would Joffrey's bastardy (by this point revealed by Ned) not matter? Would he still be the heir, despite the fact that he's not Robert's child, because Robert named him heir? Or would it just give the Lannister's something of a claim; "He may not have been Robert's child, but he was his chosen heir", or some such. Having such a claim would be a pretext to go to war over, so perhaps that was what Ned was trying to avoid, rather than being worried about legitimising Joffrey despite his (completely un-royal) bastardy. I honestly haven't a clue how chosen heirs work, assuming theirs another obvious (and not obviously unfit) heir.)

Wow, sorry. This was supposed to be about your questions on inheritance, not mine, heh.

[Lost Umber]

There's a reason that wars are fought over succession and inheritance. You are correct that in Westeros (excluding Dorne) the succession goes through the oldest male line until and unless that entire line is eliminated by death, disinheritance, or oath (maester, KG, KW, etc) in which case it reverts to the next eldest male in that line of the family. 

For example, the Stark line would go Robb, Bran, Rickon, Sansa, Arya, then Benjen ( if he had not taken the Black). But succession can always be contested if the claimant is a strong personality and has support. This was Cat's fear with Jon Snow. Or a powerful Sansa could challenge a young weak Rickon. The further you get away from the first inheritor, the greater the possibility of it being contested. 

If a female inherits, the claim may be considered weak and thus her marriage becomes critically important. It would be best to marry some blood connection, or at least a powerful Lord, to maximize the legitimacy. An example of this was shaping up in the Vale with several Lords vying for Lysa's hand even though Sweetrobin was the heir. If Sweetrobin dies when Lysa is already married to say... Lynn Corbray, then Harry Hardyng should still inherit but probably wouldn't get the chance with a contest. 

For the King it can be equally convoluted. Robert's seat was Storms End but he gave it to Renly since he had KL In fact he should have given it to Stannis as the elder. But the argument could be made that Dragonstone is the more prestigious seat and thus was owed to Stannis, although Stannis didn't see it that way. 

With Casterly Rock, Tommen would grant it to Cersei or Myrcella. Probably Cersei gets the Rock and Myrcella gets Storms End but only if they are betrothed and are able to carry on the line of succession. Or he can give those seats someone else, or keep it all for himself.... he is the king.  

Succession is about trying to keep as direct as possible (father to eldest son) but the only real rules about succession are that the ruler makes the rules and whoever has their ass in the seat takes precedence until someone knocks them out of the seat. 

 

[Lord Fauntleroy]

If anything, being King takes you out of the line for your lesser holdings. 

Robert wasn't Lord of Storms End any longer, that was Renly. Tommen isn't Lord of Casterly Rock, Cersei is the Lady. 

I think the only exception would have been Summerhall, but that seemed more like a timeshare for all Targs.

[sweetsunray]

Being King does not upjump you, no. It does however, give you some muscle power in theory to back the claimant of your preference if things get contestable. It's also not always in the interest for a king to hold two major castles and cities in his personal name from one side of the continent to the other, especially when that other castle rules a whole region with other lords that levy men from the farmfolk. The money alone to upkeep two fleet, defend two ports, two cities and two keeps would beholden the king immediately to people he may not want to be financially bound to. It might actually weaken a military position. By not having CR in his personal hands, all the upkeep and defense for CR falls to the Lannisters of CR, not the king, not his treasury, and yet as king and blood relative he can still summon their armies (they have to fund with their own money) to come to his aid. 

It can be far more in the interest of a king to have it in hands of family that would back you when you need it, but not having a strong enough claim to take your throne. If Tommen manages to live to adult age and retain King's Landing, he would do far better making one of Kevan's line heir of CR - Martyn Lannister in this particular case. Willem's dead, murdered by Karstark at Riverrun in 299. Lancel has become a devout of the Faith, already having shown no interest in marriage and lands and so unreliable. Lancel might end up donating CR to the HS to atone for his sins. Making Myrcella heir risks having CR end up becoming the Rock of the Martells.

Martyn Lannister cannot pose a threat to Tommen's claim on the throne and Tommen and his heirs would have a loyal backing with Kevan and Martyn and probably Martyn's children to his position on the throne.

[Rippounet]

5 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

So, with Jaime a KG, and Tyrion disinherited, and Joff/Tomm/Myrcella all assumed Baratheons.... is Cersei in line to inherit Casterly Rock, while Tommen rules? And does Tommen being King of the frikkin realm NOT move him to the top of the line?

Does this SSM help?

 

Quote

 

Now that Tywin is dead, does this mean that Casterly Rock goes to Cersei as his only eligible child? Or to Kevan?

Cersei has the strongest claim. It is not impossible that the Rock will be a bone of contention among the Lannisters, however.

 

 

[Trigger Warning]

2 hours ago, Lord Fauntleroy said:

If anything, being King takes you out of the line for your lesser holdings. 

Robert wasn't Lord of Storms End any longer, that was Renly. Tommen isn't Lord of Casterly Rock, Cersei is the Lady. 

I think the only exception would have been Summerhall, but that seemed more like a timeshare for all Targs.

I think Robert was just being open handed and gave Storm's End away because he didn't particularly care. 

[marsyao]

7 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

Specifically, house Lannister, and the Throne. Does being King not upjump you in your own family's line of inheritance? Meaning, Tywin's line of succession is/was:

 

(Officially, assuming Robert as parent of Cersei's kids):

1. Jaime (except for being a KG)
2. Tyrion (except he swore Tyrion would never have Casterly Rock)

Tywin could not disinherit Tyrion without a good reason, because Tyrion's birth right was protected by the law of Gods and Men, he dislike Tryion was not a good reason.

[Waiting for Howland]

3 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

I think Robert was just being open handed and gave Storm's End away because he didn't particularly care. 

 

Quote

Stannis - "Storm's End belonged to house Baratheon for three hundred years; by rights it should have passed to me when Robert took the Iron Throne"

- ACOK, Prologue

[Lord Fauntleroy]

3 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

I think Robert was just being open handed and gave Storm's End away because he didn't particularly care. 

No, I don't think so.

Can you imagine the trouble he would have to go through to be King and also a Lord Paramount? It's unfeasible that he would be expected to govern both the realm as a whole and also the minutia of his own kingdom. I believe it would be given to the next in line for Storms End by default once Robert (or whomever) was king, just like Dragonstone and its vassals did for Targaryens.

[Trigger Warning]

He didn't govern anything, he mostly left it to his council and advisers as he likely did with Storm's End. It's not exactly hard to hold onto a title without actually doing much in the day to day running of things, there's brothers and family and retainers and such to saddle with such tasks. Renly was Lord of Storm's End yet spent all his time in King's Landing as a member of the small council. 

Robert held the crown and the lordship of Storm's End for some time before giving it to Renly, no one forced him to do it. 

" “And Stannis has always felt he was cheated of Storm‟s End,” Cersei said thoughtfully. “The ancestral seat of House Baratheon, his by rights . . . if you knew how many times he came to Robert singing that same dull song in that gloomy aggrieved tone he has. When Robert gave the place to Renly, Stannis clenched his jaw so tight I thought his teeth would shatter.” "

Dragonstone is specifically the seat of the heir apparent, it's not the same. As the first son of Steffon Baratheon Storm's End was his legal right, what power could take it away from him? The king? He is the king and gave it away willingly. If there was any law that forced him to part with it then that law would surely also say that he had to give it to Stannis, yet he didn't and the only person that kicked up a fuss was Stannis himself. 

 

[1000th Lord Commander]

I believe that after Tywin dies, Ceresi is styled as Lady of Casterly Rock, since Tyrion is convicted to die and Jamie is a KG. Given that her only surviving son is sitting the throne, however, one might expect it to go to Kevan, or to be held by the crown until Tommen has a second son.

 

We see a few cases of powerful uncles overriding the wishes of nieces (Stannis willing to acknowledge Renly as his heir until a son is born, rather than insisting on Shireen).

[Jon's Queen Consort]

I would say that Tytos' line would had been;
Tywin
Jaime KG
Tyrion 
Cersei
Joffrey 
Tommen 
Myrcella
Kevan 
Lancel
Willem 
Martyn 
Janei
Tygett 
Tyrek
Gerion
Genna
Cleos Frey 
Tywin Frey 
Willem Frey 
Lyonel Frey
Tion Frey 
Walder Frey 
 

Other than Jaime it's up to the Lord if he wants to give up his place. Tywin cannot disinherit Tyrion without a reason hence Cersei and her children couldn't take the CR. Even if Cersei somehow was the Lady of CR her heir was Joff and is up to Joff if he wanted to give it up to one of his siblings.

[HaeSuse]

7 hours ago, Trigger Warning said:

He didn't govern anything, he mostly left it to his council and advisers as he likely did with Storm's End. It's not exactly hard to hold onto a title without actually doing much in the day to day running of things, there's brothers and family and retainers and such to saddle with such tasks. Renly was Lord of Storm's End yet spent all his time in King's Landing as a member of the small council.

Exactly. I guess, in the end, it comes down to... Renly rules Storm's End, Stannis rules Dragonstone... But really, in name only, and at the pleasure of the King. If Robert wanted to say that Stannis was Lord regent of Dragonstone, he darn well could. If he wanted to name himself Lord of both of those seats, and King, he could. He could install whomever he wanted in whatever posts to take care of the business of it. 

 

In the end, I guess it doesn't matter, because what reason would he have to do so. Giving it to powerful family members makes much more sense anyway.

[Vaedys Targaryen]

I think we can look at Rhaenyra Targaryen and Laenor Velaryon's "children"
Rhaenyra was set to inherit the Iron Throne, which means that the inheritance was going to continue through her. Her oldest son, Jacaerys Velaryon, was set to inherit the Iron Throne after her. Rhaenyra wanted her second son, Lucerys, to inherit Driftmark, because since Laenor was Corlys' only legitimate son and he was set to inherit it after Corlys' death anyway, Rhaenyra wanted Lucerys to inherit Driftmark as Laenor's second son, since Laenor's first son would sit on the Iron Throne.

Looking at this, if we pretend really quick that Joffrey did not die at his wedding and got Margaery with child, and Jaime by being in the King's Guard and Tyrion being disowned, that would leave Cersei to inherit and she also just happens to have two sons; one on the Iron Throne and one who is simply a prince. Joffry would sit on the Iron Throne and Tommen might have Casterly Rock through Cersei.

Now whether or not Tywin would've allowed this kind of succession, because by law Tommen is a Baratheon and not a Lannister, and Tywin wants House Lannister to sit on Casterly Rock, so whether or not Tywin would like this is a pretty good question.

13 hours ago, marsyao said:

Tywin could not disinherit Tyrion without a good reason, because Tyrion's birth right was protected by the law of Gods and Men, he dislike Tryion was not a good reason.

Well, in regards to that, as Wyman Webber, Rohanne Webber's father, lay dying he wrote a will that said that should Rohanne still be unmarried, at least without a son, by the second anniversary of his death, all the Webber lands would go to his cousin Wendell Webber.

So I suppose that while lords can't just disinherit their heirs just because, a will does have some power.

[marsyao]

2 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

Well, in regards to that, as Wyman Webber, Rohanne Webber's father, lay dying he wrote a will that said that should Rohanne still be unmarried, at least without a son, by the second anniversary of his death, all the Webber lands would go to his cousin Wendell Webber.

So I suppose that while lords can't just disinherit their heirs just because, a will does have some power.

That was different, first of Wyman Webber was a woman, an adult woman without a heir, then House Webber was just a minor House, on the other hand House Lannister was super rich and powerful, Tyrion certainly would not give up his birth right without a fight, and many other powerful noble houses, either because they did not want to set a dangerous precedence of denying a highborn's birth right without a justified cause or wish gain handsome reward and privileges by supporting Tyrion's claim, so unless Tywin wanted to risk a Westland civil war, he could not deny Tyrion's right to inheritance just because he did not like him

[marsyao]

2 hours ago, Vaedys Targaryen said:

a will does have some power.

Well, even today, if a father left a will to leave all his money to a woman he had an affair with, and leave his children nothing, we expect some lawsuits, right ?

[Vaedys Targaryen]

3 minutes ago, marsyao said:

That was different, first of Wyman Webber was a woman, an adult woman without a heir, then House Webber was just a minor House, on the other hand House Lannister was super rich and powerful, Tyrion certainly would not give up his birth right without a fight, and many other powerful noble houses, either because they did not want to set a dangerous precedence of denying a highborn's birth right without a justified cause or wish gain handsome reward and privileges by supporting Tyrion's claim, so unless Tywin wanted to risk a Westland civil war, he could not deny Tyrion's right to inheritance just because he did not like him

Well you have to remember that when there is uncertain succession, potential heirs go around vying support from other houses. If Tywin had it made publically known that he did not want Tyrion to inherit, I don't think that a lot of lords would come to support Tyrion, especially if Cersei, who also has claim to Casterly Rock, might have any say in it.

And besides, even if Tywin didn't make his wish that Tyrion is to not inherit, we have to remember that Tyrion is not particularily well-liked by anyone. Why would anyone come to support his claim? Also, as I said earlier, if Cersei were to have any say in it, Tyrion would never get Casterly Rock.

7 minutes ago, marsyao said:

Well, even today, if a father left a will to leave all his money to a woman he had an affair with, and leave his children nothing, we expect some lawsuits, right ?

Yes, most definately, but remember, this is Westeros which is set in medieval-ish times, not our real life modern world, where you can sue pretty much anyone for pretty much anything.

[HaeSuse]

I think if Tyrion were anyone other than Tyrion, Tywin would have a hard time disinheriting him. But with as much as the Imp is loathed, I don't see it being hard to accomplish, even if he isn't roped into suspicion of Joff's murder.

[Clegane'sPup]

Brienne is Selwyn's last remaining child. Does she inherit her father's lands and title?