Let's Figure Out The Wildlings

[Curled Finger]

Ah Geez, sorry @HaeSuse, I pulled the trigger early on that one.   I had to read your post a couple of times to be sure what you were saying and try very hard to see this as you've suggested.   Let's get on the same page, I'm not stating anything as a fact, I see a real problem with these people being so close to danger and living in the area consigned to the COTF in a Pact I don't know anything else about.   It has occurred to me that the Wildlings may have been sent (I won't ever believe they just went until I see GRRM write it).   Please understand that I am replying to what I think you said, which may or may not have been what you meant.    The Wildlings beyond the wall have progressed at all in any way other than their ideology.   They still use stone weapons and wear skins, except the Thenns, who despite their ability to work bronze haven't progressed at all.   These are the skills they arrived in Westeros with.  The rest of the the realm built castles, established centralized communities, farmed and learned to work with other metals.  None of this happened beyond the Wall.   

I think Martin wants us to think about everything.  I happen to be thinking about this odd culture at this time and applying Ygritte's famous statement to my understanding here.  I know nothing, my friend.   

[Orphalesion]

There are people living in Siberia, northern Canada and the upper tip of Scandinavia in real life. And those places are cold as can be.

So...I'm kind of with the camp that sees them as simply living north of the part where the wall went up. Personally i find it possible that there were giants and all sorts of stuff south of the Wall as well, they were just exterminated by the growing number of humans. There weren't as many humans north of the wall because it is a frozen hellhole. Really if we are looking at it, all of Westeros becomes a frozen hellhole for years on end at a regular interval, why are people living there at all? (assuming the magical seasons are limited to Westeros)

The North is already a frozen hellhole that features an abomination known as "summer snows" and yet people on this very forum proclaim how they'd be happy to settle there.

As to them being sacrifices to the others....we don't know yet for sure what the others do with people and whether sacrifices would be something they'd want or that would help keeping them at bay (we can infer on Craster's sons, but nothing is sure)

I agree however that a good chunk of them is probably descended from escaped Nights Watch men, after all, that's probably were the Thenns got their idea of being the "only pure blooded First Men" have from, the other tribes intermarried with escaped Crows.

As to the Wildlings being more "progressive"....No? Making somebody leader because he is big, strong and brutal isn't any more progressive than making somebody leader because their father was.

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Is it a cop out to say I see them as a Thenn "monarchy"?

The Thenns thing is having a Magnar. The same way the Ice River Clans eat human flesh is there thing. The Frozen Shore tribes wear antlers or tusks. The Cave Dwellers paint their faces, and so on with each "tribe". 

I think each "tribe" developed their own customs over the 8,000 or so years. Part of the Thenn custom is having a Magnar, which is similar to southern style monarchy, but not the exact same. 

I could be way off though. Good discussion. 

No Ser, not a cop out at all, they are a monarchy of sorts.  I brought the Valyrians up because I was at work and tried to answer from my phone which is never a good idea and they were considered gods as well as the Thenns.   You could be right.   Cultural and technological progress should have been made.   Except that it wasn't.   Not by the Thenns or anyone else north of the wall.   If we take for granted that the Thenns are truly the last of the real First Men then it is their hierarchy that gave way to all the Southron First Men.   I imagine they all had Magnars in the beginning.   

You are always a delight, my friend.  Ignore anything I try to say from 7AM to 6PM.   My phone hates me.   

[Curled Finger]

8 hours ago, Roose on the Loose said:

What about the Others?  You can't possibly understand the Free Folk if you don't understand the Others.  The Others are all male, and they can't reproduce.  But they can and have maintained their culture for millennia by turning young boys into White Walkers. Toward that end they maintain human chicken coops where many human females and one adult male produce baby boys like so many eggs.  We're familiar with one such: Craster's.

So, They built the wall to keep out the Others, and manned it with convicts. Life on the wall meant a lot of discipline and no fun.  So some of them ran off to live in the Haunted Forest.  

If they wanted wives, they had to steal them from the Others' human chicken coops.  Thus the Wildling tradition of stealing women.

And that's where the Free Folk came from.

That actually makes a lot of sense in my current mind set.  Thanks Man. 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, The Fattest Leech said:

George says so in a few old interviews. I did write about Hadrian's Wall in my other thread and made a few links to the ASOIAF story. Sorry, it is a little long, and all I did was copy/paste, but the format should still be ok:

 

Here is an excellent article from a historian that actually does Wall to Wall comparison  http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/ancienthistory/the-wall

1. We know that the Wall, and therefore much of the Brothers of the NW, are based on Hadrian's Wall, more historically named Vallum Aelium. We know this because George said so in the ancient days of the year 2000. The map of Hadrian's Wall looks suspiciously like the ASIOAF Wall as well. Vallum in Latin is the English word for Wall. Hadrian's Wall was built to keep the "wildlings" ("barbarians" of our day) of the time out of the "civilized" (dragon conquered) realm.

• No sources survive to confirm what the wall was called in antiquity, and no historical literary source gives it a name. This sounds super familiar, doesn't it? How often do we readers talk about, or read about, how the in-world history is shady, not consistent, and indistinguishable from myth? Answer: Every damn day!
• However, the discovery of the Staffordshire Moorlands Pan in Staffordshire in 2003 has provided a clue. This small enamelled bronze Roman trulla (ladle), dating to the 2nd century AD, is inscribed with a series of names of Roman forts along the western sector of the wall, together with a personal name and phrase: MAIS COGGABATA VXELODVNVM CAMBOGLANNA RIGORE VALI AELI DRACONIS. This is totally the Horn of Joramun. However, the Horn of Joramun is NOT the one Melisandre burned with fake-Mance. The Horn of Joramun is the one Jon found back in ACOK and is now with Sam down at the citadel. George swapped a ladel for a horn because horns are very important in Norse mythology and that is the other half George is basing this story on.
• Another look at the inscribed names on the real world ladle and you will see it has some words that George used to name other castles along the ASOIAF Wall when translated (see link), but also the words Vali and Draconis. The genitive singular form of vallum is valli, so one of the most likely meanings is VAL[L]I, "of the Wall"The name AELI was Hadrian's nomen, his main family name, the gens Aelia. DRACONIS can be translated as "[by the hand – or property] of Draco". Draco also means dragon, and is a constellation as well. We know by now how Jon is tied to the stars, including the ice dragon himself. I pointed out in the main OP that after Jon is chosen as LC, he says repeatedly that the wall is his.
• Part of Hadrian's Wall defenses was a vallum ditch that was dug into the ground and used as a trap. Well, in TWOW, Theon 1, we learn this:
  •   Hide contents

     

1. It was Hadrian's wish to keep "intact the empire", which had been imposed on him via "divine instruction" (sourced from this book). It is concluded by most that Hadrian made a stop somewhere in the northern frontier to inspect the building of the wall. This sounds exactly like "Good" Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys making their not-so-peaceful voyage north that resulted in lands being taken away from the Starks and crucial parts of the Night's Watch being closed off to magic, the northern culture and northern inhabitants of the land.  Remember, George has said many times that the Targaryens think of themselves as "above the gods", and therefore men as well.
2. Hadrian's Wall was even built like the ASOIAF Wall. Wider at the base than the top, and the inner base is made of stone, and it has passage tunnels from one side to the other.
3. There were also garrison's along the wall which ended up being places of political influence rather than the military influence it was supposed to be. We see this exact issue (noted in the OP) with Marsh, Yarwyck and Thorne when Jon first catches them scheming while they are in the bathhouse, and then again a few times as when Thorne tries to convince Jon to join Tywin for political reasons.
4. There is a commanding headquarters there with the name Stanwix. Stanwix... as in King Stannis??? Ya don't say.
5. Stanwix was set up with a special communication system between that location and the next castle called...York... which we know is where George got the inspiration for the Starks. Ya don't say.
6. Hadrian's Wall and the Roman conquest did fail, and the wall was dismantled over time. I wonder if this has any bearing on the ASOIAF story as well???

Anyway, I am eager to get feedback on these connections.

ADDING now because I should have put this in to begin with, but duh!, I didn't.

For reference, the vows:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Why do the vows include walls plural?

I am not claiming that ASOIAF has a second wall, but why walls? In the years after Hadrian's death in 138, the new emperor, Antoninus Pius, essentially abandoned the wall, leaving it occupied in a support role, and began building a new wall called the Antonine Wall, about 160 kilometres (100 mi) north.

ADDING again. Ok, another poster just shared a link with me that could possibly explain the plurals walls. It is not too crackpotty, and actually just uses book text to give a nice, simple answer. But I still wonder why the NW oaths would include these potential other walls. Here is the link https://endgameofthrones.com/2015/05/25/the-black-and-bloodied-gates-of-dawn/

A second poster also pointed out that the walls plural is because the "first" NW was actually when the people from different castles stood atop their won walls (castles, forts, etc) and kept a watch. This was before the wall was built. Just a thought.

ADDING AGAIN again: Just a random thought about the walls plural. While there may not be two different walls in ASOIAF, we do learn from Coldhands that there is a "door" three leagues north of Bloodraven's cave entrance. Why a door? A door sounds too architecturally specific. Caves and other natural formations don't usually have doors, but rather openings, entrances, passageways and even the oft used mouth. And keep in mind that the Black Gate at Nightfort is down in a well.

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Is this the only way in?" asked Meera.

"The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole." [Coldhands]

Man, I'm batting a thousand tonight.   Leech, thanks so much.  I honestly did wonder about plural walls in the vows.   You are a veritable fount of information here.   What valuable stuff.  I got a short education on Hadrian's Wall, penal colonies and today, Picts. All this research has been an adventure.  You tie things together so well here.  

[Curled Finger]

25 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

There are people living in Siberia, northern Canada and the upper tip of Scandinavia in real life. And those places are cold as can be.

So...I'm kind of with the camp that sees them as simply living north of the part where the wall went up. Personally i find it possible that there were giants and all sorts of stuff south of the Wall as well, they were just exterminated by the growing number of humans. There weren't as many humans north of the wall because it is a frozen hellhole. Really if we are looking at it, all of Westeros becomes a frozen hellhole for years on end at a regular interval, why are people living there at all? (assuming the magical seasons are limited to Westeros)

The North is already a frozen hellhole that features an abomination known as "summer snows" and yet people on this very forum proclaim how they'd be happy to settle there.

As to them being sacrifices to the others....we don't know yet for sure what the others do with people and whether sacrifices would be something they'd want or that would help keeping them at bay (we can infer on Craster's sons, but nothing is sure)

I agree however that a good chunk of them is probably descended from escaped Nights Watch men, after all, that's probably were the Thenns got their idea of being the "only pure blooded First Men" have from, the other tribes intermarried with escaped Crows.

As to the Wildlings being more "progressive"....No? Making somebody leader because he is big, strong and brutal isn't any more progressive than making somebody leader because their father was.

Thanks for weighing in.  You always speak your peace with elegance.  I get where you're coming from even if I see it differently.   The idea that the Wildlings are progressive stems from their egalitarian thinking.   Their spearwives and children and elderly can be as fierce as their healthy men in their prime.   A woman can steal a husband and is expected to put up a fierce fight if she's stolen.  There is a balance and acceptance between them.   It may not extend beyond their community, but it is an interesting thing to read between them.  Who else in Westeros wants to be free?  They've asked for nothing, managed to stay out of nearly everything and their desire to go south seems to me to be a matter of survival.   They've lived hard for a long time.  They are socially progressive thinkers.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, hiemal said:

You may be on to something. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems to me anyone could have survived the Long Night and the Walkers long enough to just happen to be there when the Wall went up. So either the Night's Watch put them there after the fact, the White Walkers preserved them- perhaps as breeding stock- and then some (presumably) went feral, or these represent an influx of refugees that arrived later (which seems unlikely given their numbers and oral history).

 

Just when I was loosing hope anyone would see any validity in my argument.  Truth is hiemal, I can't see anyone surviving the Long Night right there in the thick of things.  Now refugees isn't a thing I considered at all.  I will toss that around until the books are done now.  This really is a thing that captures my attention time and time again.  What do you make of the Thenns, Ser?  Next door neighbors to the Lands of Always Winter and every other peculiar thing we know about them and curiously, have no idea about the other tribes or clans?  Could the Others be their strange gods?  After Stannis busts Mance, many of the Wildlings take off to all 4 corners.  There is a Thenn who gathers remaining Thenns and leads them back to their valley which has apparently already been visited by the Others.  The times I've previously read it I thought it was an act of desperation.   Since finding all this stuff and rewriting it at my merciless editor's suggestion I wonder if this Thenn might actually think it's safe to go back now.  

It's always good to run into you and see your take on things--thanks for cheering me up a little too.  

[Crowfood's Daughter]

Now there is an idea.  I found your post refreshing and plausible, especially with the parallel of the wall and how criminals are sent there now.  I am still of the mindset that the Wildlings were present before the "First Men" arrived.  If you were to ask someone today "who discovered America", they would probably say Columbus, even though America was populated with indigenous tribes.  The story of the "founding" is corrupted for American History.  The Indians were also persecuted and forced to relocate to less than ideal lands much like the wildlings.  Now we have been told time and time again, the maesters and time have corrupted Westerosi history and we have also learned that the people who win the war write the history. 

To touch on technology, which I know has already been commented on; the First Men had bronze when the crossed the Arm of Dorne yet the Wildlings cannot work bronze save for the Thenns, the "Last of the First Men".  How could the Thenns truly boast this claim when all of the wildlings are supposedly First Men as well?  I feel one of the lines Ygritte said to Jon was very telling:

Quote

"They're not your lands! We've been here the whole time! You lot came along and just put up a big Wall and said it was yours!"

 

[LindsayLohan]

The Wildlings may be north of the wall for the same reason that there is a large Chinese population in Tijuana:  They were laborers on the project (Wildlings:Wall, Chinese:Railroads), and when it was completed nobody bothered to bring them home.

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The Wildlings beyond the wall have progressed at all in any way other than their ideology.   They still use stone weapons and wear skins, except the Thenns, who despite their ability to work bronze haven't progressed at all.   These are the skills they arrived in Westeros with.  The rest of the the realm built castles, established centralized communities, farmed and learned to work with other metals.  None of this happened beyond the Wall.   

I think their ideology can be debated as to whether or not it has progressed (in comparison to south of the wall).

They are progressive in terms of their freedom and that they sort of select their own leaders. Bastards on not viewed as negatively.

In other areas I would argue they are less progressive. They "steal" their wives. According to Ygritte you can simply kill your husband if he treats you badly. Some groups may practice cannibalism. They are undisciplined in their ideas of battle.

Technologically there is no debate. The Free Folk are vastly behind the times. Perhaps a lack of communication is at fault. The Free Folk don't have a lot of contact with the rest of the world. Only through trading do they have any communication at all. Also, they seem to be a very regional people. If born in a certain region it seems unlikely that you will leave that region. This could be due to the difficulty of travel north of the wall. If Mance wasn't organizing everyone together, how much contact would they have with each other? Without people moving and traveling it is difficult for ideas to spread. I know these are not awesome reasons but it may be something to think about. I agree though. They shouldn't be this far behind the times.

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I know nothing, my friend.   

Myself as well.

14 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

There are people living in Siberia, northern Canada and the upper tip of Scandinavia in real life. And those places are cold as can be.

Good point. And if you asked those people why don't they move? You may get the "this is my home" response.

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

If we take for granted that the Thenns are truly the last of the real First Men then it is their hierarchy that gave way to all the Southron First Men.   I imagine they all had Magnars in the beginning.   

Could very well be. I don't know. The Skagosi are also most likely First Men dominant descendants. Do we know what they practice?

13 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I can't see anyone surviving the Long Night right there in the thick of things.  

Me either. I've been searching for some information on just how wiped out the people (notice I didn't say Wildlings) north of where the wall was built became during the Long Night. I haven't found anything of use to us yet. 

 

 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

12 hours ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Now there is an idea.  I found your post refreshing and plausible, especially with the parallel of the wall and how criminals are sent there now.  I am still of the mindset that the Wildlings were present before the "First Men" arrived.  If you were to ask someone today "who discovered America", they would probably say Columbus, even though America was populated with indigenous tribes.  The story of the "founding" is corrupted for American History.  The Indians were also persecuted and forced to relocate to less than ideal lands much like the wildlings.  Now we have been told time and time again, the maesters and time have corrupted Westerosi history and we have also learned that the people who win the war write the history. 

To touch on technology, which I know has already been commented on; the First Men had bronze when the crossed the Arm of Dorne yet the Wildlings cannot work bronze save for the Thenns, the "Last of the First Men".  How could the Thenns truly boast this claim when all of the wildlings are supposedly First Men as well?  I feel one of the lines Ygritte said to Jon was very telling:

 

Great ideas. And I love the quote you found. Does Ygritte have it right? Can @Curled Finger sleep easy tonight? I don't know. Obviously, it makes logistical sense. But how would Ygritte know for sure? Frustration!!!

Good stuff on catching the parallels with the founding of America. This parallel would also apply to the lack of technology of the Native Americans compared to its conquerers and the Free Folk to the rest if Westeros.

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, Crowfood's daughter said:

Now there is an idea.  I found your post refreshing and plausible, especially with the parallel of the wall and how criminals are sent there now.  I am still of the mindset that the Wildlings were present before the "First Men" arrived.  If you were to ask someone today "who discovered America", they would probably say Columbus, even though America was populated with indigenous tribes.  The story of the "founding" is corrupted for American History.  The Indians were also persecuted and forced to relocate to less than ideal lands much like the wildlings.  Now we have been told time and time again, the maesters and time have corrupted Westerosi history and we have also learned that the people who win the war write the history. 

To touch on technology, which I know has already been commented on; the First Men had bronze when the crossed the Arm of Dorne yet the Wildlings cannot work bronze save for the Thenns, the "Last of the First Men".  How could the Thenns truly boast this claim when all of the wildlings are supposedly First Men as well?  I feel one of the lines Ygritte said to Jon was very telling:

 

Never crossed my mind that the Wildlings were prior to the First Men.  Ygritte is a wonderful resource for information.  My fabulous editor reminded me before, during and after writing this up that we know nothing and it probably means more than we give it credit for.  Still I do bat around that perhaps the Others were on Westeros prior to anyone else--dang, light bulb--maybe the Wildlings could be their minions???   Don't ever leave me alone with something that could turn just nutty.   I dig far out there.   Still you made some valid points with your parallel to the discovery of North America.  And thanks for your kind words and willingness to at least read the topic with an open mind.   Sure doesn't seem to be a popular idea, does it?   Still, I'm standing behind what I think and appreciate your support.   

[Curled Finger]

13 hours ago, LindsayLohan said:

The Wildlings may be north of the wall for the same reason that there is a large Chinese population in Tijuana:  They were laborers on the project (Wildlings:Wall, Chinese:Railroads), and when it was completed nobody bothered to bring them home.

We meet again.   You're going right along with my 2nd thought here, the Wildlings were forced labor and north of the wall was a penal colony.  Thanks Man.  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

I think their ideology can be debated as to whether or not it has progressed (in comparison to south of the wall).

They are progressive in terms of their freedom and that they sort of select their own leaders. Bastards on not viewed as negatively.

In other areas I would argue they are less progressive. They "steal" their wives. According to Ygritte you can simply kill your husband if he treats you badly. Some groups may practice cannibalism. They are undisciplined in their ideas of battle.

Technologically there is no debate. The Free Folk are vastly behind the times. Perhaps a lack of communication is at fault. The Free Folk don't have a lot of contact with the rest of the world. Only through trading do they have any communication at all. Also, they seem to be a very regional people. If born in a certain region it seems unlikely that you will leave that region. This could be due to the difficulty of travel north of the wall. If Mance wasn't organizing everyone together, how much contact would they have with each other? Without people moving and traveling it is difficult for ideas to spread. I know these are not awesome reasons but it may be something to think about. I agree though. They shouldn't be this far behind the times.

Myself as well.

Good point. And if you asked those people why don't they move? You may get the "this is my home" response.

Could very well be. I don't know. The Skagosi are also most likely First Men dominant descendants. Do we know what they practice?

Me either. I've been searching for some information on just how wiped out the people (notice I didn't say Wildlings) north of where the wall was built became during the Long Night. I haven't found anything of use to us yet. 

 

 

Pick Me Pick Me!  I do know what they practice on Skagos.   Ready?   They have a Magnar!   I've lived a lot of places.   Thankfully all warm and either tropical or arid.   I saw snow once and thought it was terrifying.   When you argue home, and it's a good argument, don't mistake me here...i wonder if there is more ignorance than loyalty in this.   How many Wildlings have been to the Wall much less south of it?   Perhaps it is home because they have never seen Dorne.  From what I've seen among the Wildlings, they all have rights and they all work for the good of their tribe.  Men and women can be stolen.   Remember when someone warned Jon to get busy with Ygritte before she decided to steal him?   There are no classic gender or age roles.  As to cannibalism--put yourself in their place.   The snow is 50' deep.   There is no food and your baby is starving.  Do you eat this flesh that will nourish you or do you lay down and die next to your child?   I'm a vegan.   It's a no brainer what I would do, but I wouldn't have the overall taboo against it for a good reason.   We used to feed the dinosaurs, i doubt you would die from it.   Given their circumstances I don't think they are backward so much as simply survivors.  

You are the best you know.   I don't think there is any information but you can bet your last dollar I am standing by and hoping you can dig something up!   

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Great ideas. And I love the quote you found. Does Ygritte have it right? Can @Curled Finger sleep easy tonight? I don't know. Obviously, it makes logistical sense. But how would Ygritte know for sure? Frustration!!!

Good stuff on catching the parallels with the founding of America. This parallel would also apply to the lack of technology of the Native Americans compared to its conquerers and the Free Folk to the rest if Westeros.

Probably not, getting ready to head out to another state to welcome our newest family member.   I will check in when I can.  

Keep in mind we are told repeatedly "You know nothing".  It means something.  Carry on.   You're in charge! 

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

7 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I saw snow once and thought it was terrifying.   When you argue home, and it's a good argument, don't mistake me here...i wonder if there is more ignorance than loyalty in this.  

Speaking as someone who hasn't seen the grass in my lawn for a month in a half because of repeated snowstorms/single digit temperatures I can say yes, there is a certain level of ignorance involved. I have always lived in cold winter environments and can't really picture a winter where I don't have to leave the sink on so the pipes don't freeze at night. I sort of enjoy talking with warmer weather friends and relatives about some of the things I have to do to "get ready for winter". I suppose there are elements of ignorance and pride. Also laziness (I hate moving).

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

From what I've seen among the Wildlings, they all have rights and they all work for the good of their tribe.

I agree.

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Remember when someone warned Jon to get busy with Ygritte before she decided to steal him?   There are no classic gender or age roles.

Good point. 

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

As to cannibalism--put yourself in their place.   The snow is 50' deep.   There is no food and your baby is starving.  Do you eat this flesh that will nourish you or do you lay down and die next to your child?   I'm a vegan.   It's a no brainer what I would do, but I wouldn't have the overall taboo against it for a good reason.  

Another good point.

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Given their circumstances I don't think they are backward so much as simply survivors.  

Solid observation. The Free Folk would say the southerners are the backwards ones.

"It's all in where you're standing" -Ygritte and Jon Snow.

14 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Keep in mind we are told repeatedly "You know nothing".  It means something.

It means something? It means we really do know nothing. Haha.

15 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You're in charge! 

A scary, overwhelming thought...

[Leo of House Cartel]

Great OP as always @Curled Finger, so many good ideas from all involved.

Ygrittes proclamation about "being here the whole time" oddly drew me to an old tale surrounding one Corlys Velaryon.  On one of his many adventures, the Sea Snake sought a rumoured "Northern passage" around the top of Westeros. The Lord of the Tides sadly never found the fabled passage, and was forced to turn back his ship when he found only "Frozen seas and giant icebergs". 
Now one could see the problem posed to a pressumeably large ship when traversing a "Frozen sea", how would it move? I'm imagining these frozen seas could perhaps be akin to a heavy duty arctic ice-sheet. If anyone has seen a modern "Icebreaker" ship then you will be famililiar with the size and power of such a vessel, aswell as the power required to break through some of these ice-sheets. While I imagine northern sea faring cultures like the Ibbenese could probably have there own crude "Icebreakers", how effective would it be near the top of Westeros where the cold is sure to be insane? And we all know what an iceberg did to the Titanic, how would a wooden ship fare?

Now the question of moving in the frozen northern seas may have been troublesome for even Lord Corlys, but could it pose an altogether easier query for say, The Hornfoot men?. 

Notorious for having "bare soles like black leather" , the Hornfoot men pride themselves on walking barefoot throught the snow and ice of the far north. Could this practice perhaps be useful on these ice-sheets? I'm not sure, one unfortunate  member of the Black Soled Brotherhood ironically suffers frost bite in his feet during ADWD and that was after traversing more southernly ground. There could exist a chance however, that some earlier people traversed these ice sheets and crossed into Westeros via the other side. 

Anyone familiar with the Great Empire of The Dawn theory will know of the links established between the Long Night and the Bloodstone Emperor. Many speculate that a mass exodus would have taken place in the aftermatch of the Battle for the Dawn, with citizens of the GEOTD perhaps fleeing to all corners of the globe, eventually establishing the cultures and societies seen in current planetos. If the "Northern Passage" is real in one shape or form, then there exists the possibility of a mass land/sea movement into the top of Westeros. Could it be that the Freefolk do indeed predate the First Men in Westeros? Maybe they started in the same place (GEOTD) but one group found a way into Westeros before the remaining migrants found the arm of Dorne and made their way north. This could explain the Thenns proximity to The Lands of Always Winter. Could the premier humans in Westeros have came down from the top, only to settle in the lands that would become Thenn? It seems more likley than the Magnars forces activley choosing to encroach of White Walker territory.

And why exactly was Lord Corlys searching for this mysterious pathway? While the mans thirst for adventure is well documented, would such a sharp mind make such a bold voyage without some form of proof? He must have had something to go on. Then again, who's to say the plan was his to begin with? The fact that this expedition took place before his famous nine voyages is interesting aswell. I'm of the belief that the Master of Driftmark had some profound experience while in the North, one which instilled him with his iron will and a mad desire for knowledge and power. Considering the ship he sailed on wasn't the famous Sea Snake from which he took his name, but another ship named Ice Wolf, I wouldn't be surprised if The Lord of High Tide was well aware of northern mystique  and culture when he sailed north.

If you would be so kind as to bare with me, I'd like to take another look at the Hornfoot tradition of wearing no shoes. While simply walking barefoot may seem tame in comparison to some other clans tradition, if you delve deeper the whole thing could be construed as crazier than cannabalism. I find the lack of footwear an odd custom as each sub group of Free Folk seem to share the men of the Watchs fear and respect for the cold, so why do the Hornfoots show such a blatant disregard for personal saftey and what you would assume would be common sence up in the North. Not only are the Hornfoot Men spitting in the face of danger,they may be pissing in the face of the old gods too. 

[Lord Wraith]

On 1/26/2017 at 0:54 PM, Curled Finger said:

Like say a Valyrian type of monarchy?

No Valyria was a Freehold not a kingdom. 

 

On 1/26/2017 at 2:56 PM, Roose on the Loose said:

What about the Others?  You can't possibly understand the Free Folk if you don't understand the Others.  The Others are all male, and they can't reproduce.  But they can and have maintained their culture for millennia by turning young boys into White Walkers. Toward that end they maintain human chicken coops where many human females and one adult male produce baby boys like so many eggs.  We're familiar with one such: Craster's.

So, They built the wall to keep out the Others, and manned it with convicts. Life on the wall meant a lot of discipline and no fun.  So some of them ran off to live in the Haunted Forest.  

If they wanted wives, they had to steal them from the Others' human chicken coops.  Thus the Wildling tradition of stealing women.

And that's where the Free Folk came from.

Then what about the Night's Queen? 

Also anyone else think that the Watch used to sacrifice to the Other's?? 

 

Lastly the Watch took a sharp downturn with the arrival of E House Targaryen. There were 10000 men on the Wall at the time of Aegons Landing and  are down to around 1000 at the start of GOT. 

[Dorian Martell's son]

On 1/25/2017 at 6:11 PM, Curled Finger said:

Yet only when there are kings-beyond-the-Wall have the wildlings ever truly presented a threat to the realms of men. AWOIAF P 362

The Watch, the Umbers  and every family that was forced to leave the gift would disagree with the statement that was obviously written by a summer loving maester in the far southron city of oldtown who has never been to the wall or even the north for that matter 

[Roose on the Loose]

6 hours ago, Dorian Martell's son said:

The Watch, the Umbers  and every family that was forced to leave the gift would disagree with the statement that was obviously written by a summer loving maester in the far southron city of oldtown who has never been to the wall or even the north for that matter 

The difference between a threat and an ass-ache is that while an ass-ache may harm or kill individual members of your culture, they don't have the potential to erase your culture.  

Mance is a threat, the Weeper is an ass-ache.