Let's Figure Out The Wildlings

[Curled Finger]

Yet only when there are kings-beyond-the-Wall have the wildlings ever truly presented a threat to the realms of men. AWOIAF P 362

There is little information regarding Wildling culture prior to the building of the Wall.   By my reckoning, all people were basically free when that Wall went up.   Unless they weren’t.  Unless those First Men were criminals forced into exile north of the Wall.   I’ve often thought they could be a sacrifice of sorts, something akin to “Here’s a bunch of tasty human flesh we’re just gonna leave here for you Others.   Enjoy!”  Why would anyone choose to stay North of the Wall after The Long Night?   I sure wouldn’t.   The only way I’d go is if I was forced.  I find it curious that the current Night’s Watch is primarily populated by social misfits and criminals and can’t help but wonder if that practice actually started with a type of penal colony north of the Wall.  

…Some argue that the Wall serves as a useful way of ridding the realm of murderers, rapers, poachers, and their ilk..  AWOIAF p 362

The Night’s Watch has become an alternative prison for all types of crime in Westeros.  There are still nobles who send their sons to join as a point of honor, like the Royce and Stark families though the practice is rare.  Life on the Wall is hard for everyone there and I think this is by design.  Is it possible that penalty in taking the black originated with a practice started North of the Wall?  The brutally cold far North is inhabited by wildling clans, giants, the COTF, wights and the Others.   I have to ask why any humans are there at all.  Was the far North Westeros’ primitive penal destination; an exercise in ridding society of its worst offenders?   Could the original First Men north of the Wall have been political dissidents or religious sectarians, people who refused to take on the Old Gods of the Children of the Forest?  Could they have been freed slaves or worse, slavers?   Was north of the Wall an exile outpost long before Essos became the go to banishment destination?  

When we meet the Wildlings in Jon Snow’s POV, they are raiding and moving en mass farther south.      The fact that Mance Rayder has unified warring tribes/clans such as the Hornfoots and Nightrunners, Ice River Clans and Men of the Frozen Shore with an estimated 6 figure populace is frightening to the Nights Watch.   Mance is, of course, a former brother of the Night’s Watch, leading an exodus south of the Wall.   As we learn more about the Wildlings through Jon’s experiences we begin to grasp that these are truly Free-Folk, as they name themselves.  Theirs is an egalitarian society.  They scorn the rest of Westerosi culture as Kneelers.  

Let’s take a minute to focus on the Thenns.   They claim to be last of the First Men, speaking the Old Tongue.    They still have interactions with Giants.  They observe a single ruler, the Magnar, as a god among them.   The Thenns live right next door to The Lands of Always Winter.    Thenns have the ability to work bronze, a skill apparently lost to all the other Free Folk.    It is a Thenn who first integrates into real Southron lands by marrying Alyce Karstark.   By all the accounts, the majority of Thenns seem perfectly willing to leave their lands behind the Wall.    I find it most interesting that it is the Thenns among the Wildlings that we are told more about than any other.   Why are these most preserved remnants of the First Men north of the Wall?

The 1st known immigrants to Westeros were the First Men.  ...who had brought with them strange gods, horses, cattle and weapons of bronze—AWOIAF p33   So far as we can tell, the First Men were the 3^rd humanoid inhabitants of Westeros.    Brandon of the Bloody Blade, son of Garth Greenhand, is thought to be the ancestor of House Stark.   House Stark may have been the 1^st First Men of lore, to populate the North.   If this is the case, the First Men may have only emigrated from southern parts of Westeros.  However, the North has such a clearly divided population of political ideals; it’s not unthinkable that the First Men came from elsewhere far away from Westeros.  Just as the area immediately south of the wall is thought of as one among the Seven Kingdoms, it is widely set apart from the realm. 

Their pride in their poverty, in their stone axes and wicker-wood shields, and in their flea-infested pelts, is part of the reason they are set apart from the people in the Seven Kingdoms….(some accounts say that there are those who worship different gods: dark gods beneath the ground in the Frostfangs, gods of snow and ice on the Frozen Shore, or crab gods at Storrold’s Pont...AWOIAF p 364

The World Book tells us that some of the ancient First Men families settled in the North possessed magical powers; the Barrow Kings, the Red Kings, the Warg Kings and the Marsh Kings.  All these kings eventually fell under the dominion of the Starks, First Men with no evident inherent power originally.  There are stories of Starks joining forces with people beyond the Wall (Joramun) to thwart some greater evil.   There is mingling of bloodlines (Bael the Bard).  There is crushing defeat in war time (Gendel & Gorne).   There is open trade (at Eastwatch) and raiding (from Bear Island to The New Gift).   The point is that the Wildlings appear to be the constant in all these stories. Is this history’s way of combining these people from North and South of the Wall into a single culture?  

The Wildling culture seems both stunted (technology) and progressive (ideology) compared to the remaining Westerosi societies.   There are so many religions in story it’s strange that AWOIAF refers to numerous unknown religious practices among the Wildlings with so little detail.  Anti-slavery is the single unifying law all Westerosi cultures appear to observe. The case of Jorah Mormont’s exile is rife with this general feeling.  Still slavery was practiced at some point as Barristan tells Dany in ASOS Dany 2.  “My queen,” said Arstan, “there have been no slaves in the Seven Kingdoms for thousands of years.   The old gods and the new alike hold slavery to be an abomination. Evil.”   The slavery theme resonates throughout the story with particular emphasis in Dany’s travels and Wildlings’ sentiment.   Freedom is a cherished thing.   Could they have found their wisdom in exile as freed slaves thousands of years removed from captivity?   Conversely, could their enlightenment have come as most incarcerated find it—in long years of isolation and deprivation?   Thenns are confirmed to practice a sort of hierarchy and maintain they are the last of the First Men.  Are they civilized barbarians or simply a group of people who had nothing but their ancient way of life?  Was their ancient way so different from the other First Men and COTF that this group couldn’t be tolerated in the new world following the Pact?  

How did the Wildlings find themselves beyond the wall?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

Great OP. 

I could be way off here. I've honestly never asked myself

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

How did the Wildlings find themselves beyond the wall?

I always assumed (probably a mistake) that the Wildlings just happened to be living on the northern side of where the wall was built. I always thought they were not "Wildlings" until after the wall was built. They then resorted to raiding, thus becoming enemies of the NW. After all, the wall was not originally built to stop Wildlings. I attributed the different cultures and technology due to a gradual lack of contact combined with growing animosity due to raiding. 

I'm reminded of Jon/Ygritte's line:

Quote

"I suppose it's all in where you're standing."

I had always thought they just happened to be born on the other side if the wall. I had never thought that maybe they were sent there. Interesting topic, I look forward to seeing some of the responses.

[Curled Finger]

I like your first response.   It is the response I get most often.   But there had to be an initial time they got there, right?  They're First Men, the Thenns, at least, and they weren't born there.   If they were all First Men, how did this group get separated from the rest of the First Men?   

I've always thought they were supposed to be sacrifices.  That's why I want to talk about it.  I have no proof and that's what got me thinking of every alternative I could come up with.  Let me know by all means if you do come up with something.  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

23 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I like your first response.   It is the response I get most often.   But there had to be an initial time they got there, right?  They're First Men, the Thenns, at least, and they weren't born there.   If they were all First Men, how did this group get separated from the rest of the First Men?   

I've always thought they were supposed to be sacrifices.  That's why I want to talk about it.  I have no proof and that's what got me thinking of every alternative I could come up with.  Let me know by all means if you do come up with something.  

These may be questions with obvious answers but here goes anyway...

Why couldn't they be First Men descendants? If the First Men arrived about 12,000 years ago and the wall was built around 8,000 years ago this would work. Couldn't they have just settled way up north? Or does the Long Night make it impossible for anyone to have survived that far North prior to the wall being built? Could the wall have come up a few hundred years after the Long Night, meanwhile people resettled up north? I'm sure the wall would have taken many, many years to build...

Sacrifices could make more sense. Sorry for all the questions. I am intrigued by this topic.

 

[Curled Finger]

Haha, I'm intrigued too.  As I see it the Wall is the question.   We've had a Long Night and been devastated by a winter lasting a generation--20 years or so and anyone wants to live in the Arctic Circle?   It's not just impossibly cold, it's right there with the freaking Others.  If people were there in the 1st place because it was a nice neighborhood and good hunting that sure as hell changed during the Long Night.   Why stay after something like that?   The Wall didn't go up in a day--figure a year or 3 to build it.   Did anyone actually volunteer to stay up there?  

I'm sure they are descendants of the First Men.   Let's say you're living there all cozy in your igloo then the snow falls on you 100 feet deep and you see your neighbors have giant ice spiders and dead horses clearing the driveway.  This goes on for 20 years during which your neighbors are eaten or disappear along with all your long dead ancestors.  Are you going to stay there?  What would keep you there?  

You couldn't have paid me to stay there.   I would have axe murdered everyone in my way to get away from the cold and the creepy ass blued eyed guys and the dead people.   Besides, there is no food!   

I can't imagine anyone wanted to be there during or after the Long Night.   Or during the reign of that freak the Nights King.

 

[Kingmonkey]

I've always assumed that GRRM was very heavily inspired by the Picts when coming up with the Wildlings.

The Picts were first heard about in the 4th century as savage and primitive raiders who live beyond the giant and ancient wall that divides the north in two from sea to sea -- Hadrian's Wall, that is.  Dangerous, backwards, with weird marriage rituals and probably in league with all sorts of weird spirits and foreigners, they were considered very much "other" (no, not Other) by the Britons. As such they didn't really consider the Picts their business, except for the odd bit of trading, as an occasional source of mercenaries and as a whole lot of trouble whenever they got together under some ambitious leader and raided in large numbers across the wall, when they could be a huge and dangerous menace that would sometimes require armies to be gathered and punitive expeditions to be mounted. 

The Picts have always been something of a historical mystery, with  nobody being very sure who they were,where they came from, when they got there, or even what language they spoke. It's only relatively recently that historians have been able to conclude quite securely that where they came from is exactly where they'd always been. The Picts were just the Britons who were on the wrong side when Hadrian built his wall. Over the years the divided population when its separate ways culturally, linguistically, and in terms of self-identity until it had been completely forgotten that they were originally just neighbouring tribes, and they became the enemy across the wall. 

 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, Kingmonkey said:

I've always assumed that GRRM was very heavily inspired by the Picts when coming up with the Wildlings.

The Picts were first heard about in the 4th century as savage and primitive raiders who live beyond the giant and ancient wall that divides the north in two from sea to sea -- Hadrian's Wall, that is.  Dangerous, backwards, with weird marriage rituals and probably in league with all sorts of weird spirits and foreigners, they were considered very much "other" (no, not Other) by the Britons. As such they didn't really consider the Picts their business, except for the odd bit of trading, as an occasional source of mercenaries and as a whole lot of trouble whenever they got together under some ambitious leader and raided in large numbers across the wall, when they could be a huge and dangerous menace that would sometimes require armies to be gathered and punitive expeditions to be mounted. 

The Picts have always been something of a historical mystery, with  nobody being very sure who they were,where they came from, when they got there, or even what language they spoke. It's only relatively recently that historians have been able to conclude quite securely that where they came from is exactly where they'd always been. The Picts were just the Britons who were on the wrong side when Hadrian built his wall. Over the years the divided population when its separate ways culturally, linguistically, and in terms of self-identity until it had been completely forgotten that they were originally just neighbouring tribes, and they became the enemy across the wall. 

 

That's a great explanation, King Monkey. This thing was probably 15 pages long originally.   Is there anything worse than a long OP?  No.  My editor has been hacking away at it for days.  I studied Hadrian's Wall (but didn't learn about the Picts, so thanks for that) as well as English and Russian penal colonies.   This deal with the Wildlings has always bugged me because they are a portion of the original people.  I gave a better rant above if you really care to read it.  They were First Men.  They lived in the thick of danger.  There had to be a reason they stayed there.   Not settled, but stayed.  They sure don't want to stay now.   

[Kingmonkey]

13 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

 They lived in the thick of danger.  There had to be a reason they stayed there.   Not settled, but stayed.  They sure don't want to stay now.   

Like the Picts, perhaps they just stayed there because it was their home, dammit! It's amazing just how much of a hell-hole people are prepared to put up with their land becoming before they actually leave. Mind you if you were to tell the average Wildling that he was living in a frozen hell-hole, he'd probably slit your throat and tell your corpse it's better than the freedom-lacking dump you used to live in. 

As for long OPs, it's not so much how long they are as how long they could be. I thought yours was a good length; long enough to get a good bite of the meat, not too long to keep the reader's focus. Good hacking is invaluable. The best advice is to write what you want to say and then start cutting until at LEAST half of it has gone. You probably won't end up saying any less, but you'll say it concisely enough there's not too much danger of readers falling asleep!

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Haha, I'm intrigued too.  As I see it the Wall is the question.   We've had a Long Night and been devastated by a winter lasting a generation--20 years or so and anyone wants to live in the Arctic Circle?   It's not just impossibly cold, it's right there with the freaking Others.  If people were there in the 1st place because it was a nice neighborhood and good hunting that sure as hell changed during the Long Night.   Why stay after something like that?   The Wall didn't go up in a day--figure a year or 3 to build it.   Did anyone actually volunteer to stay up there?  

Answering questions with more questions! You're supposed to have all the answers CF! Haha.

You make a great point. I have no idea why anyone would want to stay up there. Freezing ass cold, 100 foot snow drifts, knowing there may be more Others, hmmm.... I would certainly pass on that. @Kingmonkey may have the best answer with

8 hours ago, Kingmonkey said:

perhaps they just stayed there because it was their home, dammit!

We know the Free Folk are a prideful people. Perhaps some of that pride is based on thousands of years of toughness based on their difficult living circumstances. 

And maybe they didn't "volunteer" to stay there. Maybe they just wanted to go home. 

Another question. Do we know if the entire north (of where the wall currently stands) was wiped out during the Long Night?

@Kingmonkey. Cool stuff with the Picts. I did not know that. George based the wall off of Hadrian's Wall, yes? I haven't seen a  SSM on it, but it is what the wiki says.

[Curled Finger]

@OtherFromAnotherMother, I recently saw an interview with His Excellence and I have to paraphrase where he said something to the effect that he took Hadrian's Wall and amped it up to 120% for the story.    So yes, our Wall is based on that wall.   

I could sort of go along with the pride thing except for the curious Thenns.   They seem to have established their own little Southron type monarchy--I have to figure this is a practice the First Men came over with.   I wonder if since they are so close to where we think the Others are that maybe the Others are the strange gods they brought with them and they felt safe???  I can't help but try to fit the whole Wildling ostracization (yep, my very own word!) into the Pact--somehow.   Home would have to be safe.  No matter which way I go, something isn't right here.   

I do appreciate your comments and ideas.   I wish I actually had some answers.  Short of any really good intel I have to take the position that the 1st people who settled north of the Wall didn't want to.   Their precious independence reminds me so much of reformed prisoners or smokers.  

[HaeSuse]

I see it differently. 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Their precious independence reminds me so much of reformed prisoners or smokers.  

Their precious independence reminds me of rednecks. "Rebel Yell, Y'all!", "Don't Tread on me!", etc.

It feels to me like someone decided to make a wall. Then they did make the wall they had previously decided to make. Wall is completed. Some humans still live North of the Wall. Thousands of years later, VOILA, wildlings, and readers of the books to go "hmmmmmmm, this feels wrong."

 

It's like winning the lottery and saying "it's too rare. I can't have won." And then not collecting your prize. You've got everything you need to see it for what it is. Now, just make the leap. 

 

As a brain stretch, try this on for size. Clearly, it is possible that the true answer is "well, those are just the people who were north of the wall when it was erected, give or take a few thousand years of independent development."  Do you agree, that this is at least a possibility? If so, then try to come up with a scenario by which you would naturally believe that WAS the answer. Does it only require removing the Thenns, and then your "something is amiss" radar doesn't sound off? If that's the case, I present Occams Razor. Is it more wild to speculate about them being prisoners, a penal colony, smokers, exiles, castaways, or is it more wild to just say "the Thenns developed differently."

 

I think it's the former. You don't have to invent backstories. You don't have to wildly speculate and theorize. It's just there. Think of it this way. IF they were just there because they were on the wrong side, AND THOUSANDS of years have gone by, wouldn't GRRM's depiction of it fit in perfectly?  

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I recently saw an interview with His Excellence and I have to paraphrase where he said something to the effect that he took Hadrian's Wall and amped it up to 120% for the story.    So yes, our Wall is based on that wall.   

Good to know (for sure). Thanks! 

3 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I could sort of go along with the pride thing except for the curious Thenns.   They seem to have established their own little Southron type monarchy--I have to figure this is a practice the First Men came over with.

I don't necessarily think along these same lines. What the Thenns have set up is similar to southern style monarchy but not the same. The Magnar is thought of more like a god than a Lord. This is a big difference with the southern style. I think the Thenns have just developed a different culture than other "tribes" of wildlings. 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

Good to know (for sure). Thanks! 

I don't necessarily think along these same lines. What the Thenns have set up is similar to southern style monarchy but not the same. The Magnar is thought of more like a god than a Lord. This is a big difference with the southern style. I think the Thenns have just developed a different culture than other "tribes" of wildlings. 

Like say a Valyrian type of monarchy?

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

38 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Like say a Valyrian type of monarchy?

Is it a cop out to say I see them as a Thenn "monarchy"?

The Thenns thing is having a Magnar. The same way the Ice River Clans eat human flesh is there thing. The Frozen Shore tribes wear antlers or tusks. The Cave Dwellers paint their faces, and so on with each "tribe". 

I think each "tribe" developed their own customs over the 8,000 or so years. Part of the Thenn custom is having a Magnar, which is similar to southern style monarchy, but not the exact same. 

I could be way off though. Good discussion. 

[Roose on the Loose]

What about the Others?  You can't possibly understand the Free Folk if you don't understand the Others.  The Others are all male, and they can't reproduce.  But they can and have maintained their culture for millennia by turning young boys into White Walkers. Toward that end they maintain human chicken coops where many human females and one adult male produce baby boys like so many eggs.  We're familiar with one such: Craster's.

So, They built the wall to keep out the Others, and manned it with convicts. Life on the wall meant a lot of discipline and no fun.  So some of them ran off to live in the Haunted Forest.  

If they wanted wives, they had to steal them from the Others' human chicken coops.  Thus the Wildling tradition of stealing women.

And that's where the Free Folk came from.

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, HaeSuse said:

I see it differently. 

Their precious independence reminds me of rednecks. "Rebel Yell, Y'all!", "Don't Tread on me!", etc.

It feels to me like someone decided to make a wall. Then they did make the wall they had previously decided to make. Wall is completed. Some humans still live North of the Wall. Thousands of years later, VOILA, wildlings, and readers of the books to go "hmmmmmmm, this feels wrong."

 

It's like winning the lottery and saying "it's too rare. I can't have won." And then not collecting your prize. You've got everything you need to see it for what it is. Now, just make the leap. 

 

As a brain stretch, try this on for size. Clearly, it is possible that the true answer is "well, those are just the people who were north of the wall when it was erected, give or take a few thousand years of independent development."  Do you agree, that this is at least a possibility? If so, then try to come up with a scenario by which you would naturally believe that WAS the answer. Does it only require removing the Thenns, and then your "something is amiss" radar doesn't sound off? If that's the case, I present Occams Razor. Is it more wild to speculate about them being prisoners, a penal colony, smokers, exiles, castaways, or is it more wild to just say "the Thenns developed differently."

 

I think it's the former. You don't have to invent backstories. You don't have to wildly speculate and theorize. It's just there. Think of it this way. IF they were just there because they were on the wrong side, AND THOUSANDS of years have gone by, wouldn't GRRM's depiction of it fit in perfectly?  

 

[The Fattest Leech]

12 hours ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

 

~snipped~

George based the wall off of Hadrian's Wall, yes? I haven't seen a  SSM on it, but it is what the wiki says.

George says so in a few old interviews. I did write about Hadrian's Wall in my other thread and made a few links to the ASOIAF story. Sorry, it is a little long, and all I did was copy/paste, but the format should still be ok:

 

Here is an excellent article from a historian that actually does Wall to Wall comparison  http://history-behind-game-of-thrones.com/ancienthistory/the-wall

1. We know that the Wall, and therefore much of the Brothers of the NW, are based on Hadrian's Wall, more historically named Vallum Aelium. We know this because George said so in the ancient days of the year 2000. The map of Hadrian's Wall looks suspiciously like the ASIOAF Wall as well. Vallum in Latin is the English word for Wall. Hadrian's Wall was built to keep the "wildlings" ("barbarians" of our day) of the time out of the "civilized" (dragon conquered) realm.

• No sources survive to confirm what the wall was called in antiquity, and no historical literary source gives it a name. This sounds super familiar, doesn't it? How often do we readers talk about, or read about, how the in-world history is shady, not consistent, and indistinguishable from myth? Answer: Every damn day!
• However, the discovery of the Staffordshire Moorlands Pan in Staffordshire in 2003 has provided a clue. This small enamelled bronze Roman trulla (ladle), dating to the 2nd century AD, is inscribed with a series of names of Roman forts along the western sector of the wall, together with a personal name and phrase: MAIS COGGABATA VXELODVNVM CAMBOGLANNA RIGORE VALI AELI DRACONIS. This is totally the Horn of Joramun. However, the Horn of Joramun is NOT the one Melisandre burned with fake-Mance. The Horn of Joramun is the one Jon found back in ACOK and is now with Sam down at the citadel. George swapped a ladel for a horn because horns are very important in Norse mythology and that is the other half George is basing this story on.
• Another look at the inscribed names on the real world ladle and you will see it has some words that George used to name other castles along the ASOIAF Wall when translated (see link), but also the words Vali and Draconis. The genitive singular form of vallum is valli, so one of the most likely meanings is VAL[L]I, "of the Wall"The name AELI was Hadrian's nomen, his main family name, the gens Aelia. DRACONIS can be translated as "[by the hand – or property] of Draco". Draco also means dragon, and is a constellation as well. We know by now how Jon is tied to the stars, including the ice dragon himself. I pointed out in the main OP that after Jon is chosen as LC, he says repeatedly that the wall is his.
• Part of Hadrian's Wall defenses was a vallum ditch that was dug into the ground and used as a trap. Well, in TWOW, Theon 1, we learn this:
  •   Reveal hidden contents

     

1. It was Hadrian's wish to keep "intact the empire", which had been imposed on him via "divine instruction" (sourced from this book). It is concluded by most that Hadrian made a stop somewhere in the northern frontier to inspect the building of the wall. This sounds exactly like "Good" Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys making their not-so-peaceful voyage north that resulted in lands being taken away from the Starks and crucial parts of the Night's Watch being closed off to magic, the northern culture and northern inhabitants of the land.  Remember, George has said many times that the Targaryens think of themselves as "above the gods", and therefore men as well.
2. Hadrian's Wall was even built like the ASOIAF Wall. Wider at the base than the top, and the inner base is made of stone, and it has passage tunnels from one side to the other.
3. There were also garrison's along the wall which ended up being places of political influence rather than the military influence it was supposed to be. We see this exact issue (noted in the OP) with Marsh, Yarwyck and Thorne when Jon first catches them scheming while they are in the bathhouse, and then again a few times as when Thorne tries to convince Jon to join Tywin for political reasons.
4. There is a commanding headquarters there with the name Stanwix. Stanwix... as in King Stannis??? Ya don't say.
5. Stanwix was set up with a special communication system between that location and the next castle called...York... which we know is where George got the inspiration for the Starks. Ya don't say.
6. Hadrian's Wall and the Roman conquest did fail, and the wall was dismantled over time. I wonder if this has any bearing on the ASOIAF story as well???

Anyway, I am eager to get feedback on these connections.

ADDING now because I should have put this in to begin with, but duh!, I didn't.

For reference, the vows:

Night gathers, and now my watch begins. It shall not end until my death. I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children. I shall wear no crowns and win no glory. I shall live and die at my post. I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men. I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

Why do the vows include walls plural?

I am not claiming that ASOIAF has a second wall, but why walls? In the years after Hadrian's death in 138, the new emperor, Antoninus Pius, essentially abandoned the wall, leaving it occupied in a support role, and began building a new wall called the Antonine Wall, about 160 kilometres (100 mi) north.

ADDING again. Ok, another poster just shared a link with me that could possibly explain the plurals walls. It is not too crackpotty, and actually just uses book text to give a nice, simple answer. But I still wonder why the NW oaths would include these potential other walls. Here is the link https://endgameofthrones.com/2015/05/25/the-black-and-bloodied-gates-of-dawn/

A second poster also pointed out that the walls plural is because the "first" NW was actually when the people from different castles stood atop their won walls (castles, forts, etc) and kept a watch. This was before the wall was built. Just a thought.

ADDING AGAIN again: Just a random thought about the walls plural. While there may not be two different walls in ASOIAF, we do learn from Coldhands that there is a "door" three leagues north of Bloodraven's cave entrance. Why a door? A door sounds too architecturally specific. Caves and other natural formations don't usually have doors, but rather openings, entrances, passageways and even the oft used mouth. And keep in mind that the Black Gate at Nightfort is down in a well.

• A Dance with Dragons - Bran II

"Is this the only way in?" asked Meera.

"The back door is three leagues north, down a sinkhole." [Coldhands]

[OtherFromAnotherMother]

@The Fattest Leech

Thank you! That's good stuff. The Valli Draconis was an especially awesome find. I remember seeing the "The wall is mine" four or five times in Dance and thinking how bad ass of a phrase it was. Interesting to see the inspiration behind it.

[hiemal]

22 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I like your first response.   It is the response I get most often.   But there had to be an initial time they got there, right?  They're First Men, the Thenns, at least, and they weren't born there.   If they were all First Men, how did this group get separated from the rest of the First Men?   

I've always thought they were supposed to be sacrifices.  That's why I want to talk about it.  I have no proof and that's what got me thinking of every alternative I could come up with.  Let me know by all means if you do come up with something.  

You may be on to something. The more I think about it, the less likely it seems to me anyone could have survived the Long Night and the Walkers long enough to just happen to be there when the Wall went up. So either the Night's Watch put them there after the fact, the White Walkers preserved them- perhaps as breeding stock- and then some (presumably) went feral, or these represent an influx of refugees that arrived later (which seems unlikely given their numbers and oral history).

 

[The Fattest Leech]

20 minutes ago, OtherFromAnotherMother said:

@The Fattest Leech

Thank you! That's good stuff. The Valli Draconis was an especially awesome find. I remember seeing the "The wall is mine" four or five times in Dance and thinking how bad ass of a phrase it was. Interesting to see the inspiration behind it.

That and the commanding headquarters being called Stanwix...

I once counted how many times Jon says the wall is his and I think I got to 7 or 8. We get it, Jon, no need to brag!