George's story in Book of Swords

[The Grey Wolf]

4 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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Respectfully disagree on Aenys. The man married his son and daughter, kickstarting the Faith Militant Uprising, in a moment fueled by romantic reverie not to mention he was known to be a dreamer. The idea that he might have gotten a sudden fit of inspiration to complete his father's work by conquering Dorne during the two years Maegor was Hand while the realm wasn't experiencing any internal problems sounds reasonable to me.

[Lord Varys]

1 minute ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Respectfully disagree on Aenys. The man married his son and daughter, kickstarting the Faith Militant Uprising, in a moment fueled by romantic reverie not to mention he was known to be a dreamer. The idea that he might have gotten a sudden fit of inspiration to complete his father's work by conquering Dorne during the two years Maegor was Hand while the realm wasn't experiencing any internal problems sounds reasonable to me.

What we know about Aenys' overall personality is that he was desperately trying not to displease anyone with any of his actions. He did not want to punish people or wage wars. Else he would have reacted quite differently when the Faith Militant and many lords of the Realm rose in rebellion against the Targaryen rule. I mean, when the Poor Fellows attacked him in his bedchamber he fled the city, and when Visenya urged him to mount his dragon and bathe Oldtown and the Starry Sept in fire or give her leave to do it, he refused and did nothing. That is not the kind of a guy who would break a peace his father had forged.

He was in contact with Princess Deria during the Vulture King crisis and she assured him (which he believed) that Dorne and the Martells had no hand in all this. I'm pretty sure he would have been afraid to displease her by invading Dorne.

And again - I know 'The Sons of the Dragon' up until Aenys I's death. Nothing indicates he made any attempt to conquer Dorne. If something isn't there it is just not there, irregardless whether we think it should be there.

It could be that George was skipping that and covers what Maegor did during his Handship only later on in the story, or he ends up adding stuff to this later for 'Fire and Blood' but as of yet I think this is a major inconsistency.

[The Grey Wolf]

10 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

It could be that George was skipping that and covers what Maegor did during his Handship only later on in the story, or he ends up adding stuff to this later for 'Fire and Blood' but as of yet I think this is a major inconsistency.

You make a good point regarding Aenys. On the other hand we know he was not the pacifist the future King Baelor was so there is that. Anyway, I agree that the confusion surrounding the Dornish Wars is a major inconsistency. If only we could get GRRM, Ran, or Linda to clarify...

[Lord Varys]

8 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

You make a good point regarding Aenys. On the other hand we know he was not the pacifist the future King Baelor was so there is that. Anyway, I agree that the confusion surrounding the Dornish Wars is a major inconsistency. If only we could get GRRM, Ran, or Linda to clarify...

Aenys didn't punish people for leading men into battle in his name, but he never led men into battle himself, nor did he ever begin a war.

He contemplated convening a Great Council (whatever that would have been at that time) during the rebellions at the beginning of his reign. This was a man who wanted to talk everything through, even things you could not possible talk about. And he twice rejected the idea of dragon-based warfare, not just when Visenya urged him to use them to save the kingdom she and Aegon had conquered, but also at Riverrun early in his reign when Lord Tully urged him to use Quicksilver against Harren the Red.

It seems that Rhaenys' death in Dorne left Aenys deeply traumatized and afraid that anyone flying to war on a dragon might never return. Now, it might be possible that Maegor got Aenys' permission for some Dornish campaign. But if so, then this must have been a minor skirmish that doesn't deserve the name Second Dornish War or else we would have heard something about that.

Also keep in mind that Aenys would have been rather occupied with the overseeing and planning of the Red Keep, a project that continued through his reign. It would be very odd if a major war took place while this was done. Even Maegor did not go to war while he was overseeing the changes he had introduced into the plans, and was overseeing the completion of the castle. And thereafter the Dragonpit was begun, a project Maegor may not have been so invested, personally, but which most likely also demanded his attention and oversight.

It could be interesting if a Second Dornish War turned out to be some aggression begun on Dornish soil - perhaps by the Second Vulture King - which led to a rather long conflict in the Marches and the Red Mountains without ever having the Iron Throne or Sunspear officially declaring war on each other.

And it might be that Robar Baratheon as Jaehaerys I's first Hand might have had different opinions than his king on the Dornish question, not to mention that Jaehaerys I's own sons, especially Prince Aemon about whom we know essentially nothing, might have had the ambition to complete the conquest somehow. We also have reason to believe that Princess Rhaenys was an seasoned dragonrider with battle experience. She may have been on Tarth with her father when he was killed, but that sounds like a rather minor skirmish (dragons might have been there but I doubt Aemon was while riding his dragon) whereas some conflict with Dorne could easily enough have been a major conflict.

And with Aemon being married to his half-aunt Jocelyn Baratheon and Rhaenys having a Baratheon mother, uncle, and grandfather, it would make sense that they would champion the causes of the Stormlords if they had trouble with the Dornishmen. We'll have to wait and see.

[Ralphis Baratheon]

I forget where I heard it from but is there a possibility there could be a story about Ser. Duncan accompanying Bloodraven and Aemon to the Wall? Would it count as a Dunk and Egg story since Aegon would have already been King and would not be involved in the main plot? The dialog between Dunk and Brynden would be intriguing to say the least. 

[The Grey Wolf]

5 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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Right but Aenys wasn't entirely opposed to violence like Baelor was is all I was saying given his reaction to fLodos's pickled head. Also, we do have that Gyldayn quote from the Conquest that the Wars of Conquest continued well into the reigns of Aegon I's sons as a result of which it is impossible to come to an academic consensus as to when those conflicts ended but that only further adds to the problem more than anything.

Anyway, I agree that Prince Aemon leading a Second Dornish War would make sense and be interesting. Another possibility in that regard could be Jaehaerys's second surviving son, Baelon, seeing as that would help explain why he was known as "the Brave". Beyond that we need an explanation for why those Myrish pirates had "seized the eastern side of Tarth". Given the wording it sounds like they were looking to conquer and hold rather than merely pillage which would be strange. Maybe if there was a Second Dornish War lead by Aemon the Dornish allied with Myr in a prelude to their alliance with the Triarchy against Daemon in the Stepstones later? On the whole Dornish Wars occurring during the reign of Jaehaerys I or Viserys I works well given that the former's reign was per GRRM himself mostly glossed over and the latter's is missing 4000 words in TRP.

As for your idea regarding a Second Vulture King that makes sense too and indeed one of the things I think we can expect to get in Fire & Blood, possibly even in Maegor's section of TSOTD, is more on the Vulture Kings. Specifically how many there were, during whose reign each of them arose, and what were the campaigns to put them down.

[Lord Varys]

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Right but Aenys wasn't entirely opposed to violence like Baelor was is all I was saying given his reaction to fLodos's pickled head.

That is true. And he also did not punish Maegor for the treatment of the rebels who took the Eyrie with Jonos (and then killed him to save their own necks).

But I don't think that indicates any war-like nature in his character. It is rather a symptom of his general weakness that, while he would never command or do such things, he would also never punish people for doing such thing in his name if they were well-intentioned.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Also, we do have that Gyldayn quote from the Conquest that the Wars of Conquest continued well into the reigns of Aegon I's sons as a result of which it is impossible to come to an academic consensus as to when those conflicts ended but that only further adds to the problem more than anything.

I'm aware of that. But as I've said, I think that it is actually an inconsistency or an error. If George began his sidebar writing with the Conquest then he may already have had the First Dornish War in his mind when writing the account of the Conquest but not yet known how the situation between Dorne and the Iron Throne would continue during the reigns of Aenys, Maegor, Jaehaerys I, and Viserys I. That would have come later.

And perhaps he realized that it would be too much to squeeze a real Dornish war into the reigns of Aegon's son. The first Vulture King conflict could easily qualify as some sort of Second Dornish War.

But in general I think there is still a chance for George to add another Dornish War (although a much smaller and perhaps one that doesn't end the 'Eternal Peace') in 'Fire and Blood' set during the days of Maegor's Handship.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Anyway, I agree that Prince Aemon leading a Second Dornish War would make sense and be interesting. Another possibility in that regard could be Jaehaerys's second surviving son, Baelon, seeing as that would help explain why he was known as "the Brave".

Sure, that suggests some sort of conflict or war. But then, there is also the chance that this is some weirdo nickname like Prince Duncan naming Barristan 'the Bold' at the age of ten.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

Beyond that we need an explanation for why those Myrish pirates had "seized the eastern side of Tarth". Given the wording it sounds like they were looking to conquer and hold rather than merely pillage which would be strange. Maybe if there was a Second Dornish War lead by Aemon the Dornish allied with Myr in a prelude to their alliance with the Triarchy against Daemon in the Stepstones later? On the whole Dornish Wars occurring during the reign of Jaehaerys I or Viserys I works well given that the former's reign was per GRRM himself mostly glossed over and the latter's is missing 4000 words in TRP.

Wasn't that 7,000 words? The entire thing having 17,000 words and TRP only be about 10,000?

As of yet I'm just going with that being pirates. Bold pirates, perhaps, who had grown fat and powerful in the days before the Triarchy was formed. They may have intended to their domains to Tarth which is essentially so close to the Stepstones that it could easily enough be counted among them.

5 hours ago, The Grey Wolf said:

As for your idea regarding a Second Vulture King that makes sense too and indeed one of the things I think we can expect to get in Fire & Blood, possibly even in Maegor's section of TSOTD, is more on the Vulture Kings. Specifically how many there were, during whose reign each of them arose, and what were the campaigns to put them down.

The Vulture Kings could also have come later on in the history. Ran told me once that the Peake Uprising that killed Maekar was originally supposed to be another Vulture King episode. And perhaps those things are still somewhat connected - we have no idea what leads to the Peake rebellion.

[PCK]

This is nice and all, but I'd rather have a new D&E story, or something about the Starks & Boltons of old. Would love to know the extent of the cruelty of the red kings and what they were like when they didn't need to conceal it.

[Lord Varys]

44 minutes ago, PCK said:

This is nice and all, but I'd rather have a new D&E story, or something about the Starks & Boltons of old. Would love to know the extent of the cruelty of the red kings and what they were like when they didn't need to conceal it.

There is a lot of stuff we would all like to read.

There is a reasonably good chance that the Dunk & Egg story at Winterfell will show us new aspects about the Starks. This would be a time when Winterfell was literally teeming with direwolves (especially all those she-wolves) and it would be quite interesting to see how mean, ambitious, and cruel they could be, unlike the mostly intact family Ned and Catelyn had.

[The Grey Wolf]

7 hours ago, Lord Varys said:

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The Heirs of the Dragon is, per @Ran, 17000 words, 13000 of which were used in TRP according to a word count by @The Dragon Demands

In fact, the only completed writings for Fire & Blood we don't have a word count of at this point is The Sons of the Dragon and whatever the hell GRRM is calling the reign of Aegon I

[The Dragon Demands]

Yup.

Well, they said that the huge excerpt from Gyldayn on "the Conquest" which we got wasn't condensed, and that's 8,000 words long. 

As for "the REIGN of Aegon I", including all of the First Dornish War stuff from the Dorne regional chapter....I'd round that out to...an even 10,000?  Give or take?

[Lord Varys]

I got 12,883 words for TRP, titles not included (with the titles it is 12,922 words).

However, we have to keep in mind that the text was not just cut down but also edited at times to make it seem to be an account of the kife of Daemon Targaryen, the rogue prince, rather than an account of the reign of Viserys I (which it actually is).

So there is a good chance that the introductory material about the Daemon, etc. were added during the editing process. Just as the closing paragraphs of TPatQ wouldn't have been part of 'The Dying of the Dragons'. They were added to have sort of ending for TPatQ.

That could mean that a direct comparison between figures given by Ran and the published fake history novellas don't allow us to correctly estimate the material that is missing.

[Lady White Wolf]

On March 24, 2017 at 8:32 PM, PCK said:

This is nice and all, but I'd rather have a new D&E story, or something about the Starks & Boltons of old. Would love to know the extent of the cruelty of the red kings and what they were like when they didn't need to conceal it.

Yes!  I am fascinated by the Boltons and would love to read about the historical figures and how they interacted with the Starks at that time.

[The Dragon Demands]

Yes, the whole "Age of the Hundred Kingdoms" period is barely outlined:  6,000 to 0 BAC.  Though of course, they weren't really "Red Kings" anymore after that.  Well....it's that odd thing that it slowly transitioned from ringleaders/loose hegemony into formal "kingdoms".  But yeah, all the thousands of years' worth of local history.

[The Dragon Demands]

Hey gang:  I recently ran the Game of Thrones/AWOIAF programming track at my local scifi convention, an 8 hour long convention within a convention.

One panel I ran was on "The World of Ice and Fire" - also more broadly covering Fire and Blood, and the spinoffs derived from it like Dance of the Dragons and Sons of the Dragon.  Also talking about the known wordcount.

Thanks to everyone else also obsessively following this, and researching the info.  I recorded the whole thing:

 

(Yeah there's a point when I say, "Dying of the Dragons was 60,000 words long, published version of Dance was 35,000 words, so that leaves us 45,000 unpublished" -- slip of the tongue, I meant 25,000 ). 

Also had a trivia contest (separate video).  I feel kind of bad in retrospect because there was ONE other person who had read all the prequel novellas (her favorite dragon was Sheepstealer, not just Drogon or Balerion, the usual favorites -- mine is Caraxes, btw). But I asked a difficult, almost trick question of her: 

"What sword was carried by King Maegor the Cruel?"

And that might not be a fair question because he first carried Dark Sister, THEN Blackfyre.  She answered "Dark Sister" and I didn't give her the answer (though I did give her an easy question after that so she could get a prize).

I think it was a tough but fair question, on account of the fact that I used the qualifier "King" Maegor, and he wielded Blackfyre since he was Hand of the King, and through his actual reign.

[Lord Varys]

Since you mention the swords, I'm pretty sure these things were named during the days of Conqueror. I doubt that the dragonlords were as, well, backwards to give weapons names. Blackfyre seems to have been named after the fires of Balerion the Black Dread, I assume, while Dark Sister's name is clearly a reference to Visenya.

[SeanF]

On ‎3‎/‎25‎/‎2017 at 0:32 AM, PCK said:

This is nice and all, but I'd rather have a new D&E story, or something about the Starks & Boltons of old. Would love to know the extent of the cruelty of the red kings and what they were like when they didn't need to conceal it.

If we had a new Dunk and Egg story, I'd like to know what lay behind the sudden disappearance of Lady Webber?