Who else could Robert Baratheon have married?

[Jon's Queen Consort]

16 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Well, the Hightowers are easily one of the richest houses in Westeros; not quite as rich as the Lannisters, but close. They have enough money, supposedly, to hire an entire fleet of sellsails. The Hightowers also command more men than any other Reach house, and certainly more prestige than the Tyrells. They could well threaten the Tyrells' position if not handled carefully. But this is all beside the point; as I've said, Cersei is clearly the best choice. All I'm saying is that she wasn't the only choice.

You say that for some strange reason a new dyansty should had chose a consort from a lesser house.

16 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Rhaegar was married to Elia for a long time and suffered no accident until the war.

Elia's health was frail and he didn't needed an accident.

16 hours ago, WSmith84 said:

Tywin may be powerful, both politically and militarily, but the world will not bend just because he wills it. If Robert had chosen another (or Jon Arryn had chosen another for him) Tywin would most likely have had to suck it up and deal with it.

For a time yes but at the first chance he would had killed his enemies.

[HoodedCrow]

Lysa was a tough Lady of Vale, Messalina style.I don't think an abortion would have precluded that and perhaps Littlefinger would have assisted her in dealing with Robert in the same way as with Jon. The late breastfeeding wouldn't have gone over at Kings Landing, though Robert may have fostered the kids out.

Well, would Catelyn have done well with Robert, maybe so. I suppose he was similar to Brandon. She would have put up with the drinking, whoring and laziness, and been a better mother. She would have been a mile better than Cersei. That leaves Lysa with Ned, poor fellow. There, fixed! 

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

On ‎1‎/‎27‎/‎2017 at 8:53 AM, theblackdragonI said:

Cersei was the best option available by far. She brought the West and unwavering loyalty of Tywin. Their marriage failed because he couldn't let of the past and became a drunk. Cersei even claims she wanted to give it a go until their wedding night, so it might have been a happy/satisfactory marriage if they both tried harder.

Robert turning down Cersei when the Lannisters have a large, fresh force of trained fighters under Tywin ready to attack would be beyond stupid. The forces of the rebels were severely battered after the Trident while Tywin's remained untouched. He has more gold than any of the rest and could have fought a long, costly war in the mountains of the West. Then there's the fact that the rebels fought a war against the Targs. There's no certainty that they would have been willing or able to fight against the most powerful lord in Westeros who just killed off the Targs, why should they? Because Robert doesn't want to marry the most attractive and powerful daughter in the land? What does the ordinary soldier or lord care about the killing of Elia and the children. It ended the war and not everyone was as affronted by it as Ned and Barristan who are both super honourable but not all that pragmatic. Robert not marrying Cersei and then fighting the Lannisters would have led to so much unnecessary bloodshed and he might not be able/wanted to become king at the end.

To the contrary my friend , the war was almost over when Tywin got involved Rhaegar was dead and the royalist army in retreat . Tywin's own words in A Storm of Swords ; Tyrion " We came to the rebellion late in order to demonstrate our loyalty we laid those bodies before the throne ..." And according to Robert the idea to marry Cercei was Jon Arryn's . 1 was to give the land an heir and 2 As an alliance against Viserys . Was Cercei the best choice ? On the outside yes  , but he could have gain Tywin's loyalty by releasing Jaime from the King's Guard . I am beginning to believe people have been confusing the long suffering Cercei from the tv series Game of Thrones and that bitch Cercei from the novels . The marriage fail because there was nothing to build on Cercei according to her own words she intended to cheat on Rhaegar with Jaime , even though she considered Jaime to be a callow boy next to Rhaegar , Robert had got her with child Jaime found a woodwitch to clean it out. . Robert wanted her until he found out wanting and having is two different things  Renly made him see that he could do better .

[Universal Sword Donor]

19 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I did exaggerated but what I meant is that he did wanted his blood on the Throne.

If he did that to Aerys what would stoped him from doing that again? He could had allied himself with the Iron Borns, Tyrells and even buy non Westerosi supporters.

 

He, once again, didn't kill Aerys. Please stop saying that. What stops him from doing it again? Well other than destroying his house's reputation and the complete lack of reason for either of those regions to ally with them? The IB are lifelong enemies of Westermen. If Tywin allies with them, Fair Isle at best ignores summons from Tywin, at worst actively opposes him with their own fleet. The Reach are historical opponents, which doesn't mean much now, but also have literally no reason to ally with him. If Robert had done something similar to Aerys that merited being overthrown, then Tywin can go all in. Until then he risks turning his house into the Freys 2.0, which is the exact opposite of Tywin's stated goals. Buying sellswords just unites Westeros agaisnt him. No one wants foreign invaders on their soil. It's the biggest issue facing Dany if she brings over her Dothraki army.

Hypothetically he could do a lot but none of it fits with Tywin's character or would be remotely possible in-series.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

3 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

He, once again, didn't kill Aerys. Please stop saying that.

You are right. What he did was that he didn't helped him, sacked his city and killed his heirs while his son killed Aerys.

4 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Well other than destroying his house's reputation 

Because the man who kills children obviously cares about his reputation.

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

complete lack of reason for either of those regions to ally with them?

It depends what he can give to the others. 

6 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

. Until then he risks turning his house into the Freys 2.0, which is the exact opposite of Tywin's stated goals.

I don't think that Tywin cares about what people think about him. I think that he only cares about power and his grandson as the King is power.

[Universal Sword Donor]

23 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You are right. What he did was that he didn't helped him, sacked his city and killed his heirs while his son killed Aerys.

Because the man who kills children obviously cares about his reputation.

It depends what he can give to the others. 

I don't think that Tywin cares about what people think about him. I think that he only cares about power and his grandson as the King is power.

When Tywin orchestrated the RW, he used proxies. He easily could have been transparent. He wasn't. He knew the awful backlash that would land on the Freys and the Boltons. Tywin absolutely cares what people think about him, at least insofar as respect for his power. He doesn't abide laughing because he equates it with weakness, as we all know what happened to his father.

If he has sufficient justification to do something, like killing Rhaegar's family to cement his loyalty to the rebellion, then it makes some sense. Even the IB tried to get in at the last minute. I've never held that Tywin shouldn't have done what he did. I've only said that Robert needn't reward the Lannisters as much as he did. Robert didn't owe him much of anything. It was in both the Lannisters' and Robert's best interest to ally as more war is always a dicey proposition and Tywin himself considered the war over after the Trident. Mace's forces couldn't get to KL in time to save it from the rebels and Tywin would have been heavily outnumbered to defend a king he loathed and an administration that had done nothing to help his family out.

[Orphalesion]

58 minutes ago, HoodedCrow said:

Lysa was a tough Lady of Vale, Messalina style.I don't think an abortion would have precluded that and perhaps Littlefinger would have assisted her in dealing with Robert in the same way as with Jon. The late breastfeeding wouldn't have gone over at Kings Landing, though Robert may have fostered the kids out.

Well, would Catelyn have done well with Robert, maybe so. I suppose he was similar to Brandon. She would have put up with the drinking, whoring and laziness, and been a better mother. She would have been a mile better than Cersei. That leaves Lysa with Ned, poor fellow. There, fixed! 

 

There is nothing tough about Lysa. She is neurotic, cowardly  and overemotional. Plus she lived at King's Landing prior to Jon's demise and it stands to reason that she breastfed Sweetrobin there.

And there would still be a story, since Littlefinger would now have access to the wife of the King and ned's best friend/adopted brother.

Lysa is a poor choice as queen since she was dishonored and had an abortion.

Catelyn would have worked, I think, but she was already married by the time of Robert's coronation. Wasn't she? So she's not up for debate.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

12 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

When Tywin orchestrated the RW, he used proxies. He easily could have been transparent. He wasn't. He knew the awful backlash that would land on the Freys and the Boltons. Tywin absolutely cares what people think about him, at least insofar as respect for his power. He doesn't abide laughing because he equates it with weakness, as we all know what happened to his father.

He killed babies and he never cared about what people might think.

14 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

If he has sufficient justification to do something, like killing Rhaegar's family to cement his loyalty to the rebellion, then it makes some sense. Even the IB tried to get in at the last minute. I've never held that Tywin shouldn't have done what he did. I've only said that Robert needn't reward the Lannisters as much as he did. Robert didn't owe him much of anything. It was in both the Lannisters' and Robert's best interest to ally as more war is always a dicey proposition and Tywin himself considered the war over after the Trident. Mace's forces couldn't get to KL in time to save it from the rebels and Tywin would have been heavily outnumbered to defend a king he loathed and an administration that had done nothing to help his family out.

You say that Robert rewarded him I say that Tywin's case is what someone means by saying “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer”. Tywin is dangerous and with dangerous people it’s better to have them friends than enemies.

[Universal Sword Donor]

27 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He killed babies and he never cared about what people might think.

You say that Robert rewarded him I say that Tywin's case is what someone means by saying “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer”. Tywin is dangerous and with dangerous people it’s better to have them friends than enemies.

He absolutely cared what people thought. Literally all of his actions since he was knighted revolved around restoring Lannister honor, pride, or power. He was shamed by Tyrion marrying Tysha and his whoring. If he didn't care about that, why did he punish Tyrion in both cases? He tried to resign from being Hand when Aerys got hammered and embarrassed his wife in front of the entire court. Killing Rhaegar's family was objected to by approximately one person, Ned, who wasn't a Targ supporter, yet it cemented his loyalty to Robert -- hence the whole speech he gave to Tyrion about that.

Robert did reward Tywin. What word would you use?

re·ward

• a thing given in recognition of one's service, effort, or achievement.

No doubt the Tywin is dangerous. What makes Tywin dangerous to Robert? Not much considering the Lannisters “had forsaken House Targaryen forever.” Alone with no allies, no reason to fight, and no reason to rebel is hardly something to fear as much as you portray. Robert had it well within his rights to punish Tywin if he saw fit. That would have been a huge mistake. Instead he forgave him (or greeted him as an ally as you prefer). Marrying Cersei was by no means necessary but it was the most expedient, but not the best option, to consolidate power. Circumstances dictated a non-ideal scenario to Robert and Jon and Ned.

 

[Lost Umber]

1 hour ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

I don't think that Tywin cares about what people think about him. I think that he only cares about power and his grandson as the King is power.

Tywin only cares what others think of him and his house. The honour and pride of his house is his whole motivation largely because his father was a laughing stock. This why he went to war over Tyrion's abduction... and he told Tyrion as much... that it was only for the honour of his house. Sure he wants power as well since the two often go hand in hand. But to say he doesn't care what others think is just not correct. 

24 minutes ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He killed babies and he never cared about what people might think.

You say that Robert rewarded him I say that Tywin's case is what someone means by saying “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer”. Tywin is dangerous and with dangerous people it’s better to have them friends than enemies.

He absolutely cared what people thought about the babies. He was making as bold a statement as possible that he was forsaking the Targs and throwing his lot in with Robert. 

Tywin is ruthless and a dangerous enemy but he was in a very delicate position at the the of the rebellion. He had no allies whatsoever and regardless of how powerful  he is, he couldn't hope to contend with the power of the Baratheon, Stark, Tully and Arryn alliance. He had no chance of allying with Dorne and the Greyjoys are no option, especially for a Westerman. Marrying Cersei to Robert was a lifeline for Tywin but Robert didn't need it politically as much as Tywin. 

Roberts only logical political choices were Lannister or Tyrell. There were no suitable choices available from his existing alliance and too much bad blood with Dorne. By marrying Cersei, an alliance between Tyrell and Lannister was prevented. Had Robert married a Tyrell, Cersei might have been paired with Garlan or Willas which would be a threat if the two most powerful houses in Westeros were united. 

Lynesse Hightower would have been an interesting choice. There are few houses more prestigious than the Hightowers. Hightowers had married Targaryen's before, been Hands of Kings, LC of KG, High Septons, etc. Both the centre of the Faith and the Maesters are in Oldtown. they are said to be as rich as the Lannisters and have a massive amount of military strength. A Hightower marriage would have fractured the power structure in the Reach.

[naseridrl]

One of the Hightower ladies seems like a decent choice.  Got money and status, but also the Tyrells might be happy-ish with it due to Mace married to Alerie makes him Uncle to the future king.  If the Reach is tightly bound to the crown there really isn't much Tywin can do to cause the crown any issues. 

[WSmith84]

3 hours ago, Jon's Queen Consort said:

You say that for some strange reason a new dyansty should had chose a consort from a lesser house.

Elia's health was frail and he didn't needed an accident.

For a time yes but at the first chance he would had killed his enemies.

Did you actually read what I wrote? In the post you quoted I said that Cersei was clearly the best choice. Let me repeat: Cersei was the best choice; she wasn't the only choice. I'm not saying Robert should have chosen differently, I'm saying he could have.

Elia's health was so frail that she managed to give Rhaegar two healthy children and live. Good job Tywin! Really secured yourself a link to the Throne there! Oh, wait...

Sure, Tywin may eventualy have been able to strike back at his enemies. One never knows what might have happened if Robert married someone else. At the end of the Rebellion however, his position is not strong enough to turn on Robert. He can't ally with the Ironborn (already Robert's men and traditional enemies of the West), he can't ally with Dorne (obviously) so that leaves the Reach. Now, if the Reach were willing to forsake Viserys, they could ally with the West, but they'd have no candidate for the Throne (no small problem). If the Reach wishes to remain loyal, I doubt an alliance between the West and Reach is possible. Viserys is unlikely to forgive the Lannisters for killing Aerys, Aegon and Rhaenys, and if he does, he will lose Dorne.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Per the age of Arianne, or any other young/not-born-yet lady, Robert did not have to get married right away (it was a good idea, but not necessary). A betrothal to an appropriate girl who needed time to grow up first would have been ideal for his purposes because he could grieve for Lyanna, play around all he wanted, and then marry the girl when she was of age.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Ashara Dayne? 

[Lost Umber]

5 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Ashara Dayne? 

She was slightly too dead at the time which is often problematic for a happy marriage. 

[Samantha Stark]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Per the age of Arianne, or any other young/not-born-yet lady, Robert did not have to get married right away (it was a good idea, but not necessary). A betrothal to an appropriate girl who needed time to grow up first would have been ideal for his purposes because he could grieve for Lyanna, play around all he wanted, and then marry the girl when she was of age.

That's assuming Robert would be able to EVER stop his whoring ways.

[The Fresh PtwP]

17 minutes ago, Lost Umber said:

She was slightly too dead at the time which is often problematic for a happy marriage. 

KL was taken before the Tower of Joy and we don't know how long Ned took there or at Starfall. I'm sure being Queen would've cheered her up enough to...not jump.

[Lion of the West]

Another problem with Robert waiting to marry is the risk of him dying before his heir would have been of age. With such a young dynasty the risk was always that Robert, or any other king, would suffer an accident or illness and die and so leave the throne vacant. And the older Robert gets, the higher the risk for him dying. By that time it would have been, at least in my mind, important that Robert had a grown heir who was publically known to the realm and thus had legitimacy and the risk of miscarriage or early death for Robert's children was always a possibility. Just look at Aerys' and Rhaella's many lost children. 

Thus I think that it would have been best for the Baratheon dynasty for Robert to marry early and when he passes away, there are children of him and his wife to take the throne. This would be even more true if we look at the poor relations between the Baratheon brothers.

[Yet Another ASOIAF Fan]

On 1/27/2017 at 5:34 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Rhaenys, if they hadn't killed her.  She would have been an excellent choice, might have kept Viserys and the Martells at bay, and given Robert 10+ years to recover from Lyanna's loss and maybe settle down a bit before committing to marriage. In the mean time any of his bastard children could have been legitimized, or Stannis named as his heir, pending the birth of a legitimate son. Rhaenys also doesn't look like a Targaryen, which would be a plus. Eventually Robert might have even gotten over the fact that she was Rhaegar's daughter. 

Then there's Arianne Martell, but Doran would never have agreed.

Dany's not an option. At the time of the sack no one knew Rhaella was pregnant, including herself. Then there was no knowing whether the baby would be a boy or girl, whether she would carry to term, whether the child would be born alive, or whether the child would survive infancy. If all that weren't enough, Robert sent his brother to capture Rhaella and Viserys. After the way he acted when presented with Elia, Rhaenys and MaybeAegon's bodies, there's fair room for doubt that he would have let Rhaella or her baby live. 

Realistically, if Cersei hadn't been an option there would have been some other noble girls considered. Cersei was the best power-match, but not the only possibility in the realm. And they could always have looked for a bride from one of the Free Cities in hopes that someone more exotic/less Westerosi would distract Robert from his grief over Lyanna's death.

 

Umm... Arianne Martell would have been around  7-8 years old at the time of the end of RR.  Waiting at least 8 years for an heir to the throne would be a major problem for a new king, let alone a new dynasty forged in a bloody war. The largest problem would that Doran would demand the head of Gregor as payment.  So not only would Robert have to decline Cersei, he would have to ask Tywin to sacrifice a key soldier who, in Roberts own words, did what needed to be done.

[Lost Umber]

9 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

KL was taken before the Tower of Joy and we don't know how long Ned took there or at Starfall. I'm sure being Queen would've cheered her up enough to...not jump.

Ok... I'll play along. Assuming this idea somehow works in the timeline, what is the advantage of wedding House Dayne with Baratheon?  

House Dayne is an ancient House with a really cool sword but they don't seem to be particularly rich, powerful or influential. I doubt it smooths things over with the Martells. It wouldn't play well with the Reach since the Daynes are historically one of their key antagonists. The West would still be a big risk to his reign since Tywin would feel snubbed.