Who else could Robert Baratheon have married?

[naseridrl]

14 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

KL was taken before the Tower of Joy and we don't know how long Ned took there or at Starfall. I'm sure being Queen would've cheered her up enough to...not jump.

Considering what had happened to Elia and her kids it may have made her want to jump even more. Especially considering Roberts reaction to it.

[theblackdragonI]

On 28/01/2017 at 5:19 PM, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

To the contrary my friend , the war was almost over when Tywin got involved Rhaegar was dead and the royalist army in retreat . Tywin's own words in A Storm of Swords ; Tyrion " We came to the rebellion late in order to demonstrate our loyalty we laid those bodies before the throne ..." And according to Robert the idea to marry Cercei was Jon Arryn's . 1 was to give the land an heir and 2 As an alliance against Viserys . Was Cercei the best choice ? On the outside yes  , but he could have gain Tywin's loyalty by releasing Jaime from the King's Guard . I am beginning to believe people have been confusing the long suffering Cercei from the tv series Game of Thrones and that bitch Cercei from the novels . The marriage fail because there was nothing to build on Cercei according to her own words she intended to cheat on Rhaegar with Jaime , even though she considered Jaime to be a callow boy next to Rhaegar , Robert had got her with child Jaime found a woodwitch to clean it out. . Robert wanted her until he found out wanting and having is two different things  Renly made him see that he could do better .

The war was almost over, still doesn't change the fact that Tywin had a huge army virtually untouched while the rebels were battered and ready to go home. I'm not saying by any means that war would have happened, but they definitely would have had to placate him. Say if the Tyrells didn't bend the knee and Robert didn't marry Cersei, Tywin might just withdraw to the Rock again. I think keeping Jaime in the KG was a good move as it appeased Ned and Jon, while still ensuring Tywin's loyalty (while simultaneously punishing him by not giving him his heir, similar to Aerys). No believe me I think Cersei is the worst from the start and have no sympathy for her, but the marriage failed because both of them. She was ready to give it a go until he said Lyanna, nevertheless she should have stopped with Jaime and Robert shouldn't have whored so much. But I guess that's medieval marriages right? 

[theblackdragonI]

On 28/01/2017 at 6:20 PM, Jon's Queen Consort said:

He killed babies and he never cared about what people might think.

You say that Robert rewarded him I say that Tywin's case is what someone means by saying “keep your friends close, and your enemies closer”. Tywin is dangerous and with dangerous people it’s better to have them friends than enemies.

I always thought that Tywin acts so ruthlessly because he cares what people think. He killed Elia and the children so nobody could doubt his loyalty, he killed the Reynes + Tarbecks to the child so nobody would ever rebel again, he made his men (and teenage son) rape a girl to teach his son not to shame his house. He wants people to think he's ruthless, that he'll do anything to get results no matter what, that to cross him is the last mistake his enemy will make. 

He hated his father being a laughing stock so much that he will go out of his way to make people fear and respect the Lannisters again.

I think the best example of him cultivating this reputation is the exchange between Jon Connington and Myles Toyne: 

“Tywin Lannister himself could have done no more,” he had insisted one night to Blackheart, during his first year of exile.

"There is where you're wrong," Myles Toyne had replied. "Lord Tywin would not have bothered with a search. He would have burned that town and every living creature in it. Men and boys, babes at the breast, noble knights and holy septons, pigs and whores, rats and rebels, he would have burned them all. When the fires guttered out and only ash and cinders remained, he would have sent his men in to find the bones of Robert Baratheon. Later, when Stark and Tully turned up with their host, he would have offered pardons to the both of them, and they would have accepted and turned for home with their tails between their legs."

[Universal Sword Donor]

21 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

The war was almost over, still doesn't change the fact that Tywin had a huge army virtually untouched while the rebels were battered and ready to go home. I'm not saying by any means that war would have happened, but they definitely would have had to placate him. Say if the Tyrells didn't bend the knee and Robert didn't marry Cersei, Tywin might just withdraw to the Rock again. I think keeping Jaime in the KG was a good move as it appeased Ned and Jon, while still ensuring Tywin's loyalty (while simultaneously punishing him by not giving him his heir, similar to Aerys). No believe me I think Cersei is the worst from the start and have no sympathy for her, but the marriage failed because both of them. She was ready to give it a go until he said Lyanna, nevertheless she should have stopped with Jaime and Robert shouldn't have whored so much. But I guess that's medieval marriages right? 

Tywin's army was only 12,000. It was likely half the size of the remaining rebel army (or smaller). 

[theblackdragonI]

5 minutes ago, Universal Sword Donor said:

Tywin's army was only 12,000. It was likely half the size of the remaining rebel army (or smaller). 

that's only the amount he brought to KL. If he retreated to the West and marshalled his forces (which he would definitely do if war broke out), he'd have at least 40k seeing as the West had been involved in no wars since the Ninepenny Kings.

[WSmith84]

12 minutes ago, theblackdragonI said:

that's only the amount he brought to KL. If he retreated to the West and marshalled his forces (which he would definitely do if war broke out), he'd have at least 40k seeing as the West had been involved in no wars since the Ninepenny Kings.

What would be the point of Tywin fighting? Who is he going to put on the Throne? He can't support Viserys, not after King's Landing. He's got no potential allies (Dorne hates him, the Reach are fighting for Viserys at the time and might have bent the knee to Ned Stark by the time Tywin reaches the West). What would Tywin's endgame be?

[theblackdragonI]

23 minutes ago, WSmith84 said:

What would be the point of Tywin fighting? Who is he going to put on the Throne? He can't support Viserys, not after King's Landing. He's got no potential allies (Dorne hates him, the Reach are fighting for Viserys at the time and might have bent the knee to Ned Stark by the time Tywin reaches the West). What would Tywin's endgame be?

I never said he definitely would, just in a hypothetical situation. Someone above mentioned Robert was well within his rights to punish Tywin. Tywin likely wouldn't have taken being snubbed well. Remember Ned wanted him and Jaime severely punished so it could have happened. Tywin definitely wouldn't have taken the black or allow himself to be executed.

[WSmith84]

Just now, theblackdragonI said:

I never said he definitely would, just in a hypothetical situation. Someone above mentioned Robert was well within his rights to punish Tywin. Tywin likely wouldn't have taken being snubbed well. Remember Ned wanted him and Jaime severely punished so it could have happened. Tywin definitely wouldn't have taken the black or allow himself to be executed.

Well, in case of punishment Tywin would have had to fight with what troops he had at KL (against however many were in the Rebels' army under Ned's command). A tough fight, and no guarantee of victory. I could understand him fighting in that situation, though.

[Eamonn the Dragonknight]

Cercei was the only option short of destroying House Lannister entirely....

The marriage gave Tywin a stake in the success of the new world order. And given Jon Arryns entire branding of the war was "the king cannot kill whoever they like, the Great lords should be respected", it would have damaged Roberts legitimacy if one of the biggest Houses in the 7 Kingdoms rejected his leadership.

Marrying Cercei was politically brilliant (no one could have predicted how crazy she would be). I think the big mistake was letting her keep and raise her children. They should have been fostered with Renly or Ned to curb Cerceis influence on them...

[Lost Umber]

15 minutes ago, Eamonn the Dragonknight said:

Cercei was the only option short of destroying House Lannister entirely....

The marriage gave Tywin a stake in the success of the new world order. And given Jon Arryns entire branding of the war was "the king cannot kill whoever they like, the Great lords should be respected", it would have damaged Roberts legitimacy if one of the biggest Houses in the 7 Kingdoms rejected his leadership.

Marrying Cercei was politically brilliant (no one could have predicted how crazy she would be). I think the big mistake was letting her keep and raise her children. They should have been fostered with Renly or Ned to curb Cerceis influence on them...

I don't understand why you say the only other option was to destroy House Lannister. 

if Robert marries a Tyrell or Hightower, all Tywin can do is go sulk at the Rock. There's no way the West can threaten the rest of 7K all alone... especially with 5 of the other regions united so strongly. 

[devilish]

Prior to the sacking of KL, Robert’s rebellion was just. His king had gone crazy by burning Rickard, killing Brandon and asking for Robert and Ned’s heads. The Vale, the North and the Stormlands had no choice but to rebel. Rhaegar’s death was an honourable one. No one can blame Robert for defending himself against the crown prince. Till then Robert’s options were wide open to him. He could go full Reynes of Castamere over the Targs, he could opt for the Cregane Stark route etc. 

House Lannister took that choice away from him. They entered the war late and shaped the rebellion from a campaign meant to bring justice and sanity to the realm into a massacre. By refusing to marry Cersei, Robert would have punished a friend who did ‘what was necessary for the good of the realm’. A man who had enough troops and wealth to go toe to toe against Robert’s army who had yet not fully recovered from the battle of the trident. By doing so, he would have not only panicked the opportunists (Frey, Lannister and Greyjoys) who were banking on enjoying a slice of the cake but also their former enemies. If Robert can’t be grateful for the service rendered by his mates then how can he forgive the slights caused by his enemies?

Robert could in theory marry other people instead. For example a marriage between Arianne and Robert would have helped greatly in curing the wounds caused by the rebellion. There again it would have been taken as an insult to the Lannisters who would have automatically braced themselves for repercussions. Robert could have waited and then married Asha Greyjoy. Unfortunately the iron islanders would have seen that as the king’s consent to go pillaging and reaving. 

In my opinion and assuming she was still single, the best candidate for Robert would have been Mina Tyrell. 
a-    It would have stripped Tywin from his only potential ally whom, together with the Lannisters, could raise an army strong enough to go toe to toe against Robert
b-    Robert would distance himself from the Lannister crimes
c-    It would have been interpreted as a sign of good will from Robert to the loyalists
 

[sifth]

On 1/27/2017 at 8:53 AM, theblackdragonI said:

Cersei was the best option available by far. She brought the West and unwavering loyalty of Tywin. Their marriage failed because he couldn't let of the past and became a drunk. Cersei even claims she wanted to give it a go until their wedding night, so it might have been a happy/satisfactory marriage if they both tried harder.

Robert turning down Cersei when the Lannisters have a large, fresh force of trained fighters under Tywin ready to attack would be beyond stupid. The forces of the rebels were severely battered after the Trident while Tywin's remained untouched. He has more gold than any of the rest and could have fought a long, costly war in the mountains of the West. Then there's the fact that the rebels fought a war against the Targs. There's no certainty that they would have been willing or able to fight against the most powerful lord in Westeros who just killed off the Targs, why should they? Because Robert doesn't want to marry the most attractive and powerful daughter in the land? What does the ordinary soldier or lord care about the killing of Elia and the children. It ended the war and not everyone was as affronted by it as Ned and Barristan who are both super honourable but not all that pragmatic. Robert not marrying Cersei and then fighting the Lannisters would have led to so much unnecessary bloodshed and he might not be able/wanted to become king at the end.

Don't act like Cersei is blameless. She was having sex with her brother only hours before her wedding to Robert.

[devilish]

On 27/01/2017 at 1:53 PM, theblackdragonI said:

Cersei was the best option available by far. She brought the West and unwavering loyalty of Tywin. Their marriage failed because he couldn't let of the past and became a drunk. Cersei even claims she wanted to give it a go until their wedding night, so it might have been a happy/satisfactory marriage if they both tried harder.

Robert turning down Cersei when the Lannisters have a large, fresh force of trained fighters under Tywin ready to attack would be beyond stupid. The forces of the rebels were severely battered after the Trident while Tywin's remained untouched. He has more gold than any of the rest and could have fought a long, costly war in the mountains of the West. Then there's the fact that the rebels fought a war against the Targs. There's no certainty that they would have been willing or able to fight against the most powerful lord in Westeros who just killed off the Targs, why should they? Because Robert doesn't want to marry the most attractive and powerful daughter in the land? What does the ordinary soldier or lord care about the killing of Elia and the children. It ended the war and not everyone was as affronted by it as Ned and Barristan who are both super honourable but not all that pragmatic. Robert not marrying Cersei and then fighting the Lannisters would have led to so much unnecessary bloodshed and he might not be able/wanted to become king at the end.

I think that’s a very simplistic way to see things. 

Sure the Lannisters were dangerous foes. As you said, their army was mostly intact and they had the resources and the means to wage a long and painful war. Cersei was a beautiful bride, who was at the right age of bearing children. But that’s only part of the story

The Lannister army had stayed neutral for most of the war only to backstab their king in the last moments of war. Their forces committed a massacre, with Jamie Lannister taking matters on his hands by killing the king he had sworn to protect and with Tywin’s henchman massacring Elia and her innocent children. The fact that Tywin served as Aerys right man for so many years adds insult to injury. It also created a dangerous precedent were its ok for people of royal blood to be massacred for crimes they didn’t committed + it contributed for the Baratheon family to saddle a crime they did not commit.

Robert might not be in a position to go to war against them at that point in time. That’s something everyone in the kingdom would acknowledge and respect. But surely he was in a position not to join houses with them.
In my opinion, Robert should have stuck a balance between not pissing Tywin off by punishing his house too much and not rewarding him for his hideous crime. 
 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

On 1/28/2017 at 10:53 PM, Samantha Stark said:

That's assuming Robert would be able to EVER stop his whoring ways.

As a king, he wouldn't have to stop whoring. But...with a wife who was less icy than Cersei, he might have at least made an effort to be faithful.

 

On 1/29/2017 at 2:35 AM, Yet Another Stark Fan said:

Umm... Arianne Martell would have been around  7-8 years old at the time of the end of RR.  Waiting at least 8 years for an heir to the throne would be a major problem for a new king, let alone a new dynasty forged in a bloody war. The largest problem would that Doran would demand the head of Gregor as payment.  So not only would Robert have to decline Cersei, he would have to ask Tywin to sacrifice a key soldier who, in Roberts own words, did what needed to be done.

He had heirs. He had two younger brothers, one of whom was of marriageable age. The very fact of his naming Stannis Lord of Dragonstone indicates that Robert thought of Stannis as his heir at the time that decision was made. He also had at least two bastards already who could have been legitimized by his own decree and added to the line after Stannis and Renly.  Robert was young and in good health. It was a good idea to get him married and get him a trueborn son sooner rather than later, but it was not crucial.

The term dynasty indicates an unbroken line of descent and long-standing ruling. Someone who just won a war does not have a dynasty, and won't in his own lifetime.  It wasn't exactly a newly forged anything given Robert's proximity to the throne through his own Targaryen grandmother. He was already in line. If the entire Targaryen family had been wiped out by illness (or a careless pyromancer) the throne would have gone to Robert anyway.

The larger problem is that Doran would not have asked for anything, but would have said no, something which I mentioned above. No way Doran would allow his daughter to be betrothed to the man whose secure rule required the brutal murder of her cousin(s) and aunt. That close to the event, Doran himself--or more likely Oberyn--might have received the suggestion of a betrothal as an insult and started another war. Gregor's head would be the least of anyone's worries. 

[theblackdragonI]

10 hours ago, sifth said:

Don't act like Cersei is blameless. She was having sex with her brother only hours before her wedding to Robert.

I didn't mean to give off the impression of sympathy for Cersei. I mentioned in another post how she was very much in the wrong for having the affair. I was just pointing out that she was willing to give it a go until Robert said Lyanna. Again not really his fault seeing how his beloved just died, and she could have still tried afterwards and stopped with Jaime. Both in the wrong but Cersei much, much more so. In a medieval sense Robert wasn't terrible, many husbands whored and drank and disciplined their family. 

9 hours ago, devilish said:

I think that’s a very simplistic way to see things. 

Sure the Lannisters were dangerous foes. As you said, their army was mostly intact and they had the resources and the means to wage a long and painful war. Cersei was a beautiful bride, who was at the right age of bearing children. But that’s only part of the story

The Lannister army had stayed neutral for most of the war only to backstab their king in the last moments of war. Their forces committed a massacre, with Jamie Lannister taking matters on his hands by killing the king he had sworn to protect and with Tywin’s henchman massacring Elia and her innocent children. The fact that Tywin served as Aerys right man for so many years adds insult to injury. It also created a dangerous precedent were its ok for people of royal blood to be massacred for crimes they didn’t committed + it contributed for the Baratheon family to saddle a crime they did not commit.

Robert might not be in a position to go to war against them at that point in time. That’s something everyone in the kingdom would acknowledge and respect. But surely he was in a position not to join houses with them.
In my opinion, Robert should have stuck a balance between not pissing Tywin off by punishing his house too much and not rewarding him for his hideous crime. 
 

Well I suppose it comes down to notions of honour and justice really. Jon Arryn and I'm sure Robert (I don't think this marriage was forced on him that much) saw it as the lesser of two evils. Yes Tywin massacred the Targs and forced Robert into a bloody coronation, but he also saved him from dealing with Rhaegar's family. It was easier to form an alliance with tywin early on then to leave him as a wildcard with potential to stir up discontent.

I agree though that he could have appeased Tywin in another manner, like releasing Jaime from his vows. My opinion would be that although there were certainly other matches available, and although Cersei brought baggage, the advantages outweighed the disadvantages. Certainly couldn't marry a Tyrell.

[King in t'North]

On 27/01/2017 at 2:01 PM, Nocturne said:

Sorry to go a little off topic here but i'm curious about something. When House Baratheon was split in two after the death of Bob, who could legally decide which of these houses is true Baratheon one? ( i assume they both can't co-exist)

 

Legally they're both true houses of Baratheon, just with different seats, in the same way the Karstarks were originally a true house of Stark, but not the ruling/lordly one. If you mean who could decide which one held primacy in terms of claiming the crown, that's simply a mature of primogeniture, and in this case that is indisputably Stannis. However, if he had been splattered in battle with Renley, then Renley would simply claim the crown by Right of Conquest.

[King in t'North]

14 hours ago, Eamonn the Dragonknight said:

Cercei was the only option short of destroying House Lannister entirely....

The marriage gave Tywin a stake in the success of the new world order. And given Jon Arryns entire branding of the war was "the king cannot kill whoever they like, the Great lords should be respected", it would have damaged Roberts legitimacy if one of the biggest Houses in the 7 Kingdoms rejected his leadership.

Marrying Cercei was politically brilliant (no one could have predicted how crazy she would be). I think the big mistake was letting her keep and raise her children. They should have been fostered with Renly or Ned to curb Cerceis influence on them...

They probably would have been, had Robert not been such an utter failure of a human being.

[devilish]

8 hours ago, theblackdragonI said:

I didn't mean to give off the impression of sympathy for Cersei. I mentioned in another post how she was very much in the wrong for having the affair. I was just pointing out that she was willing to give it a go until Robert said Lyanna. Again not really his fault seeing how his beloved just died, and she could have still tried afterwards and stopped with Jaime. Both in the wrong but Cersei much, much more so. In a medieval sense Robert wasn't terrible, many husbands whored and drank and disciplined their family. 

Well I suppose it comes down to notions of honour and justice really. Jon Arryn and I'm sure Robert (I don't think this marriage was forced on him that much) saw it as the lesser of two evils. Yes Tywin massacred the Targs and forced Robert into a bloody coronation, but he also saved him from dealing with Rhaegar's family. It was easier to form an alliance with tywin early on then to leave him as a wildcard with potential to stir up discontent.

I agree though that he could have appeased Tywin in another manner, like releasing Jaime from his vows. My opinion would be that although there were certainly other matches available, and although Cersei brought baggage, the advantages outweighed the disadvantages. Certainly couldn't marry a Tyrell.

I believe it was down to practicality. Jon Arryn (who pushed for the deal) was already old by then and with no heirs. He was in no mood to continue a long war if he could have helped it, as he had to make sure he continues his line. For old Arryn, Tywin could satisfy his obsession of seeing a blondie as a queen as long as he commits his troops to the realm + he pays the bills a civil war would have caused. The spears of Dorne had suffered heavy losses during the war which would need at least a generation or two to recover. They aren't a threat.

In my opinion it wasn't the wisest decision taken as Robert was seen as rewarding the Lannisters for their hideous crimes. Therefore the Lannister crimes became his own. 

 

[Lord of Raventree Hall]

I actually think one of the Tyrells would have been a great idea, or maybe Arianne Martell (would have to wait awhile. I think Cersei was a good choice too though. I personally would have chosen a Tyrell or Martell though (as the Lannisters had already joined Robert's cause, late or not). Another choice is a Velaryon. Grabbing some more Targaryen DNA in the process..although I am unsure if any female Velaryon's existed then or now..

[Eamonn the Dragonknight]

22 hours ago, Lost Umber said:

I don't understand why you say the only other option was to destroy House Lannister. 

if Robert marries a Tyrell or Hightower, all Tywin can do is go sulk at the Rock. There's no way the West can threaten the rest of 7K all alone... especially with 5 of the other regions united so strongly. 

Their would still have been many small lords supporting the Targaryan cause and Tywin's army would still at full strength having never properly fought...

Tywin could have thrown his support behind Visarys (married him to Cersei and used him as a puppet king) which probably would have gain a lot of support; the Reach might have joined them, those no.2 lords (Bolton, Dayne, Frey) who want to overthrow their kingdoms Highlord could have seen this as legitimate chance to make a move and im sure there would have been a free City or 2 willing to jump in as well.

At best, the Civil war goes on and Robert's legitimacy is damaged as his pitch was that he could unify the 7K. At worst, the Ned/Jon/Robert alliance is so damaged from the war they just fought, the fall to this new rebellion.

Its also worth remembering that at the time of the Robert-Cersei mariiage pact, Ned is mad at Robert for the deaths of the Targaryan children. Jon Arryn would not have wanted to risk another war when he couldnt even be sure of Northern support.