[SPOILERS] Black Sails Season 4: All that glitters is not Silver

[red snow]

39 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

This is a really good analysis, and while I seldom give Hollywood credit for putting good thought in fight tactics, reading your analysis makes me think that they did do that in both cases. And if we go back and analyze the fight between Hands and Billy, Billy wasn't very smart in using his reach, nor does he have Flint's skill. Billy was essentially the aggressor in that fight, and allowed Hands to close in with him.

I also appreciate the breakdown - i noticed the fights were all unique but cool to have an explanation of why they were. Sounds as if they had an expert on advising the choreography and just anothe example of the attention to detail in this show.

It also highlights just how out of his league Silver was and that the battle was in the heart and mind between the two.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, Corvinus said:

This is a really good analysis, and while I seldom give Hollywood credit for putting good thought in fight tactics, reading your analysis makes me think that they did do that in both cases. And if we go back and analyze the fight between Hands and Billy, Billy wasn't very smart in using his reach, nor does he have Flint's skill. Billy was essentially the aggressor in that fight, and allowed Hands to close in with him.

Thanks.

Yes, Billy is a man who uses force more than skill. We saw that in his fight with Flint at the Underhill plantation as well. There he held out long enough, because Flint uses the same weapon.

I think the S1 DVD has extras about the combat prepping camp, where the introduce the trainer and choreographer of the fights. And I've seen it mentioned several times by the actors too. I believe they had like a month of sword, wrestling and fighting bootcamp. I know plenty of people complained about the Blackbeard capture, but that was a very realistic fight too - that is the sequence of Woodes vs Blackbeard and then the other soldiers ganging in on him and they all aiming their muskets at him. It even has the nice touch of Woodes' anxiety in trying to get his musket ready ASAP, while the other soldiers are still hacking and stumping at him. So, no not 20 cuts and 5 bullet holes. But I think that Maynard account is likely exaggerated. He could write whatever he wanted anyway, since Maynard dumped the body in the water and only took the head along.

And overall, they keep the realistic approach of not letting a sword fight take 5 mins against an opponent, at the most a few moves. The longer you have to duel, the likelier you end up dead. Most abled sword fighters try to kill in no more than 3 parries, preferably the first strike. The Joji-Flint sword fight was an exception to that. 

[sweetsunray]

23 minutes ago, red snow said:

It also highlights just how out of his league Silver was and that the battle was in the heart and mind between the two.

At Skeleton Island, yes, but there are indications he's close to ready to outplay Flint.

For example, if he were to duel or intervene in someone dueling Flint while Silver aims to get Flitn killed, all he basically has to is say that Thomas is alive and well in "Savannah" (let's call it that for the moment). It doesn't need to have a long impact, but him just shouting "Thomas lives! And I know where!" even if Silver isn't actually sure of it, would be enough to bring Flint momentarily out of balance. And if it comes to it, I can see Silver do that.

Flint is also wrong that Silver can't fabricate a story that would make Madi "forgive him". The only witnesses remaining that can tell that Silver dug up the treasure are Israel Hands, Ben Gunn. Woodes and Billy know he offered the cache for Madi, but Madi never had a spyglass and thus couldn't see what was offered even to spare her life (perhaps that's why we had that comical image in 4x08 of 4-5 men next to each other with spyglasses). Dispatch of Flint and Silver can spin the story in such a way that Flint dug up the cache, destroyed the Walrus himself, killed the crew members... See where the "myth" is born?  

[red snow]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

At Skeleton Island, yes, but there are indications he's close to ready to outplay Flint.

For example, if he were to duel or intervene in someone dueling Flint while Silver aims to get Flitn killed, all he basically has to is say that Thomas is alive and well in "Savannah" (let's call it that for the moment). It doesn't need to have a long impact, but him just shouting "Thomas lives! And I know where!" even if Silver isn't actually sure of it, would be enough to bring Flint momentarily out of balance. And if it comes to it, I can see Silver do that.

 

I'm talking about the physical fight. I think Silver is capable of outplaying Flint -he's done so several times before. I also don't think Silver could beat Flint with shouting something like "I know Thomas is alive". I think the point is that Flint doesn't want to kill Silver (he understands why Silver is behaving this way over Madi) and as long as Silver was willing to kill him to save Madi then Silver was always going to win in a fight.

Was the reason Flint didn't just shoot Hands a) he thought he could take him down with a sword, b ) he didn't want to alert others to his presence by firing the gun or c) he was still trying to win Hands over by showing him respect as an opponent? I guess with Flint it could easily be a combination of all three.

Were there any points where Flint screwed the Samurai over or any times Silver helped the Samurai? I'm just trying to remember if there's a reason the Samurai would be so loyal to Silver over Flint.

[Zorral]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Daniel Defoe was definitely a friend of Woodes, based on circumstantial evidence. And not just for Selkirk => Robinson Crusoë (which was published and written during Woodes' first term in Nassau). Defoe was not just an author. He was a pamphlet writer, a propagandist and a spy for the government. His book about "a gentleman" (what the word means, and whether it can apply to someone not born of noble birth) uses Woodes Rogers as an example of Defoe's gentleman ideal. And then there's the "histories of the pirates", which is believed to have been written by Defoe (using a pseudonym) where we all the contemporary "biographies" of pirates and pirate hunters the world over. This one was written and published while Woodes was in debtor's prison (Defoe did debtor's time himself once in a while too years before that), and Woodes is known to have been one of its sources for the accounts on Blackbeard, on Rackham, Bonny, Mary Read, Vane, Hornigold etc...and it also included a biogrography of Woodes Rogers. That book catapulted him back to natioanl hero status, king reinstated his governship, got him out of debt and gave him back pay and a lifelong pay and pension.

Defoe -- another of the multitude of multi-talented, brilliant, fascinating, productive figures of London's 18th century!

[Astromech]

35 minutes ago, red snow said:

 

Were there any points where Flint screwed the Samurai over or any times Silver helped the Samurai? I'm just trying to remember if there's a reason the Samurai would be so loyal to Silver over Flint.

Joji following Silver rather than Flint was a little confusing for me as well. In the first season Flint tells Silver Joji is a ronin who has sworn loyalty to him. What would make Joji switch loyalties to Silver? Honor and loyalty are quite important in Joji's culture, so curious as to why the switch from Flint to Silver. There could be quite an interesting backstory there.

[red snow]

1 minute ago, Astromech said:

Joji following Silver rather than Flint was a little confusing for me as well. In the first season Flint tells Silver Joji is a ronin who has sworn loyalty to him. What would make Joji switch loyalties to Silver? Honor and loyalty are quite important in Joji's culture, so curious as to why the switch from Flint to Silver. There could be quite an interesting backstory there.

That makes it even more curious. I like how we're already creating spin-off material for Joji. A prequel showing how he wound up swearing loyalty to Flint would be fun - especially if they have the african guy who wore the scary teeth back as his side kick

[Astromech]

16 minutes ago, red snow said:

That makes it even more curious. I like how we're already creating spin-off material for Joji. A prequel showing how he wound up swearing loyalty to Flint would be fun - especially if they have the african guy who wore the scary teeth back as his side kick

Haha, Joshua. I wish he lasted longer in the series, but dying to Vane isn't a bad way to go out.

[GallowKnight]

Well, Flint can be a real piece of shit some times and hasn't always been the most popular captain during the show. And since season two it's been clear that the crew of the Walrus has a great deal of trust in Silver and that he was instrumental in keeping them in-line with Flint's goals.

[Corvinus85]

2 hours ago, Astromech said:

Joji following Silver rather than Flint was a little confusing for me as well. In the first season Flint tells Silver Joji is a ronin who has sworn loyalty to him. What would make Joji switch loyalties to Silver? Honor and loyalty are quite important in Joji's culture, so curious as to why the switch from Flint to Silver. There could be quite an interesting backstory there.

I must have missed this, because I always wondered what he was. I always thought that his background is a ronin, but after this last episode I was ready to give him a different background - the son of a lowly peasant who wanted to become a samurai, trained by a ronin, but when the real samurai discovered what he was doing, he was forced to flee his home and become an outlaw, later taking ship for the new world - it fits with Flint's own rebellion against England.

[GallowKnight]

7 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

I must have missed this, because I always wondered what he was. I always thought that his background is a ronin, but after this last episode I was ready to give him a different background - the son of a lowly peasant who wanted to become a samurai, trained by a ronin, but when the real samurai discovered what he was doing, he was forced to flee his home and become an outlaw, later taking ship for the new world - it fits with Flint's own rebellion against England.

I don't remember that scene either. AFAIK Joji only comes up twice in conversation in S1, once when Billy suggests torturing Silver and when Joji is getting his sword sharpened by one of the crewmembers (Logan I think?).

[Astromech]

There is a scene in season 1 between Flint and Silver where Silver asks who that man with the strange sword is. Flint replies,"He goes by the name, Joji. Says something about being a row neen or some bloody thing. Only speaks broken English and said something about pledging his sword to me to help take down the English scum who corrupted his once honorable homeland."  

[sweetsunray]

3 hours ago, red snow said:

I also don't think Silver could beat Flint with shouting something like "I know Thomas is alive".

I think he could. It'sone of the reasons possibly behind the 4x09 point about Flint having a backstory and Silver finding his own irrelevant and not telling Flint. And have you see Flint's eye twitch whenever someone mentions Thomas. Silver already planted a very little seed in 4x04 by asking "what if ..." Watch... watch... watch Flint's face. Flint didn't want to hear it, for sure. But he heard it neverteless, and that is working into his brain like a worm. Although if they were to use Silver saying something like that, I can see them doing it as Silver whispering it to him.

 

3 hours ago, red snow said:

I think the point is that Flint doesn't want to kill Silver (he understands why Silver is behaving this way over Madi) and as long as Silver was willing to kill him to save Madi then Silver was always going to win in a fight.

Flint doesn't want to kill Silver. But Silver can learn to fight mentally to save Madi and still kill Flint imo. Silver has finally began to see Flint as his opponent today. . He needs to look at both points in time -who Flint was in the past: McGraw.

3 hours ago, red snow said:

Was the reason Flint didn't just shoot Hands a) he thought he could take him down with a sword, b ) he didn't want to alert others to his presence by firing the gun or c) he was still trying to win Hands over by showing him respect as an opponent? I guess with Flint it could easily be a combination of all three.

Combo of all three.

Flint's tactical brain is phenomenal in that respect. There is a hint about Dooley being loyal to Flint and not Silver in 4x04. Remember that scene with Flint telling pirate captains how to get their crew in control during the chaos of the Nassau coup? How they all looked at Silver and Silver told them "you heard him". Little later Dooley comes in with Eleanor's note wanting Max in exchange of 20 men in the prison. Silver goes into wanting BIlly to show his face within the hour. Dooley questions him a little, and when Silver finally gives him the order to seek Billy out, Dooley looks at Flint and Flint says "You heard him." And then the shot lingers on Flint being thoughtful as Dooley walks away out of the screen. At the time you don't really know what Flint is thinking of: Billy? Max? But it is painfully clear now that Flint thought - "Dooley wants the ok from me, not the other way around. I should remember that, for whenever there comes a time."

Same about Madi. Flint knew he had her in 4x01. He's with her when she's shocked at John falling in the water, with her while she hopes, with her while she grieves, and she asks him hours later whether the war is over now, the alliance ended. There's a shot of her back while she looks out across the sea ("where are you?"). Then we have a right angle shot of her face and we see the tears. Then we have a left angle shot at her face, almost smiling at the sun (sigh, another day). It's not that she doesn't love Silver any less than Silver loves her (her tears of joy when she learns he's alive, the reunion kiss which Flint also witnesses). It means she can bear loss and move on. She can sacrifice loved ones the way Flint can. That is Silver's "weakness" - he cannot do that (though it's not a wrong imo). Apparently none of the curly haired characters can (at least when they have curls in Eleanor's case): Silver, Eleanor, Max.

4 hours ago, red snow said:

Were there any points where Flint screwed the Samurai over or any times Silver helped the Samurai? I'm just trying to remember if there's a reason the Samurai would be so loyal to Silver over Flint

None that we know of. But he obeyed Dufresne and Degroot in S1 and S2 when Dufresne too the captaincy. He obeyed Billy to confront Dufresne about the 10 pardons. He stands with Flint in 4x02 at the Underhill plantation fight. He tries to kill Flint when Silver orders it.

[sweetsunray]

1 hour ago, GallowKnight said:

I don't remember that scene either. AFAIK Joji only comes up twice in conversation in S1, once when Billy suggests torturing Silver and when Joji is getting his sword sharpened by one of the crewmembers (Logan I think?).

Yup that's what I remember too. And yes, that was happy smiling Logan.

Dooley btw was also one of the first men to beat Silver up in S2 with the news bulletins.

[GallowKnight]

1 hour ago, Astromech said:

There is a scene in season 1 between Flint and Silver where Silver asks who that man with the strange sword is. Flint replies,"He goes by the name, Joji. Says something about being a row neen or some bloody thing. Only speaks broken English and said something about pledging his sword to me to help take down the English scum who corrupted his once honorable homeland."  

No, I'm fairly certain that is not a scene from season one. I think that originated in a reddit thread about him.

[Astromech]

16 minutes ago, GallowKnight said:

No, I'm fairly certain that is not a scene from season one. I think that originated in a reddit thread about him.

You're right, my mistake. That is where I read it but went back through the first season and couldn't find it anywhere. Joji is still a mystery, but he does give  a harrumph after one of the pirates does a less then adequate job of sharpening his blade. So he isn't silent.

[Corvinus85]

3 minutes ago, Astromech said:

You're right, my mistake. That is where I read it but went back through the first season and couldn't find it anywhere. Joji is still a mystery, but he does give  a harrumph after one of the pirates does a less then adequate job of sharpening his blade. So he isn't silent.

So my fanfic back story about him still applies. 

[Astromech]

4 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

So my fanfic back story about him still applies. 

I suppose having it a mystery in the series is better since one can speculate and fill in the blanks however.

[YoungGriff89]

Just finished the series finale on the STARZ app (benefits of being on central time), and I just have to put it as simply as I can...they really did it.  They pulled this thing off.  

[Pliskin]

Hahahaha,

Spoiler

Mary Reed! Awesome   Also awesome that they credited the Jolly Roger to Rackam in the end. Good way of ending the show.

But wait, they didn't forget Ben Gunn, but Billy. What the heck?