Public transportation & tolerant communities

[Angalin]

Something I've been thinking about after seeing last night's protests at airports around the US in defiance of the Muslim ban: when cities have reliable and affordable public transportation where people of all ethnicities, faiths and backgrounds mix together daily, do communities tend to be more supportive and inclusive? Does a car culture promote cultural disconnection between neighbours? On the whole, bigger, more diverse cities tend to be more tolerant - does that tie into *how* we get to work as well as *who* we work with?

[Happy Ent]

In order to learn to empathise with other people’s mindset, you can employ the following ritual. Next time you want to board a plane, remember to think “Thank you, Islam!” to yourself while standing in line for the security check. Make that a habit, so that you internalise the correlation between the increase in totalitarian security and surveillance and living with Islam in the public sphere.

I’m not saying this is the only viewpoint about terrorism and security. But it’s a good empathy-building routine. 

[Luzifer's right hand]

Personally I doubt that public transport increases tolerance but I could be wrong. I have used trains and buses all my life(never owned a car) and while the only people I have ever had hostile interactions with personally were drunk soccer fans I have witnessesed a lot of impoliteness and verbal disputes involveing people of visible migrant background(usually old grumpy men vs women or migrats vs. migrants).

[Savannah]

Given that there were around 1000 reported sexual assaults at the Cologne central train station reported just at the new years eve last year, I don't know how the reliable and affordable public transportation in Germany contributes to a tolerant and inclusive community at the light of the fact that the assaults were committed by migrant men from different ethnicities and cultures. 

What do you think? 

[The guy from the Vale]

HE, Savannah,

 

Seriously? You have to turn such a broad question into diatribes on your own pet peeves?

In particular, I think the connection between terrorism and the surveillance state is far weaker than we're often led to believe. The former just serves as an excuse for the latter, but the latter would exist even without the former, as its existence is mainly a consequence of technological possibility and political obsession with control.

 

More to the point though... I don't think you can draw a direct connection between public transport and tolerance. But it's an interesting question. At the very least, PT exposes you to people of different backgrounds more often and enforces at least a basic mode of living together with people we don't understand. On the other hand, I don't think we're at our best when we're travelling - there are few more stressful situations in day-to-day life, and so public transport can also feed our prejudices even further. And public transport doesn't force us to interact, either - we don't have to deal with our fellow travellers any more than when we'd be passing by them on the street or in our cars.

[Savannah]

7 minutes ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

HE, Savannah,

 

Seriously? You have to turn such a broad question into diatribes on your own pet peeves?

I know it's the-thing-that-must-not-be-discussed-or-named.

Still it's a very very relevant though difficult  question given the topic. 

[The guy from the Vale]

That's not what I said. Indeed, it can and should be discussed, in the right context. But going on that tangent that early in a thread will just lead to a derail.

I'd also argue that drawing a connection between public transport and what happened in Cologne that one night is going to be a very... indirect connection. If it had happened within public transport, that might be different - but that's not what happened.

[Queen of Procrastination]

6 hours ago, Savannah said:

Given that there were around 1000 reported sexual assaults at the Cologne central train station reported just at the new years eve last year, I don't know how the reliable and affordable public transportation in Germany contributes to a tolerant and inclusive community at the light of the fact that the assaults were committed by migrant men from different ethnicities and cultures. 

What do you think? 

 

5 hours ago, theguyfromtheVale said:

That's not what I said. Indeed, it can and should be discussed, in the right context. But going on that tangent that early in a thread will just lead to a derail.

I'd also argue that drawing a connection between public transport and what happened in Cologne that one night is going to be a very... indirect connection. If it had happened within public transport, that might be different - but that's not what happened.

As someone who comes from the area and has visited the train station hundreds of times @theguyfromtheVale is right. It didn't happen in public transport itself. It happened in the square infront of the central station, but it wasn't really related to the transport system. 

And as a woman I'm more afraid of drunk and aggressive soccer (or hockey) fans in trains than migrants in trains. 

Most fans are not like this, but there is always a number who are and I start to feel rather uncomfortable when they enter the train, especially when it happens after Cologne has lost a game. 

By the way these groups usually consist of white men. 

[Datepalm]

4 hours ago, Angalin said:

Something I've been thinking about after seeing last night's protests at airports around the US in defiance of the Muslim ban: when cities have reliable and affordable public transportation where people of all ethnicities, faiths and backgrounds mix together daily, do communities tend to be more supportive and inclusive? Does a car culture promote cultural disconnection between neighbours? On the whole, bigger, more diverse cities tend to be more tolerant - does that tie into *how* we get to work as well as *who* we work with?

There's no conclusive evidence. There's some research that's been done on interactions in public spaces, including PT particularly in the UK, but it's kind of a mixed bag. It might help a bit in terms of creating familiarity and visibility in the public realm for minority groups, but there doesn't seem to generally be the depth of interaction required to really create individual tolerance. Big cities tend to have more PT and be more tolerant, but those might just be two factors that both pull people to big cities rather than one having a role in the other. Transit can also be a particular node of conflict - not just violence or confrontation, but things like having multiple languages on signage or in announcements. (Its been an issue here.) (Someone Valentine has written a lot about this. Durham?)

The role of transport in actual outcome - immigrants or low-income nighbourhoods ability to get to work, to services, participate in public life, etc is more straightforward, but here there are issues like knowledge and fear barriers (like being attacked , or even stared at because you're wearing a hijab, or not wanting to answer your phone in a language people are hostile to, etc.) that may reduce it. (Karen Lucas...Leeds, I think.) And an increasingly contradictory amount of evidence on the role of straightforward availability of PT to unemployment, for example.

[Datepalm]

Found it! The delightfully titled Passing Propinquities in the Multicultural City: The Everyday Encounters of Bus Passengering http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1068/a43354

[chuck norris 42]

If someone a borderline racist with limited mental faculties,  I think sometime on public transport would stop them  fearing the Muslims that live in America. .Mothers with young children clearly place high  priority on  looking  after their own child and a low priority on blowing up someone else's.

However public transport would not stop a xenophobic politician demonizing other countries, The only thing racists no about other
countries is what racist demagogues tell them.

 

[Sixshells]

I agree with Datepalm (thanks for the link to that interesting paper) that PT doesn't in and of itself leads to a better tolerance. It's true that people of various backgrounds are forced to share the same limited space, but it doesn't necessarily lead to a good shared experience. Especially when the PT infrastructure is outdated and overcrowded. Anything that add to the amount of frustrations and tensions a person experiences during a travel diminished her ability to deal with more. In addition, this tolerable amount might vary depending on the person and her personal circumstances.

In my personal experience in overcrowded PT systems (Paris and Ile-de-France region, in particular), I could become at the end of some journeys so fed up with the rest of the world that I wouldn't give someone the time of day just because I couldn't bear with one more annoyance. At that point I have very little empathy left for others, let alone tolerance.

 

Quote

Mothers with young children clearly place high  priority on  looking  after their own child and a low priority on blowing up someone else's.

Parents are quite able to murder their own children, especially if they believe they are taking them with them to a "better place". They also might be preoccupied with raising new bodies to keep up the fight. The idea that a mother is benevolent by nature is ludicrous.

[Rippounet]

On 29/01/2017 at 6:49 PM, Datepalm said:

There's no conclusive evidence. There's some research that's been done on interactions in public spaces, including PT particularly in the UK, but it's kind of a mixed bag.

There's some research here or there that show that at least in some countries, xenophobia can be more intense in areas with fewer immigrants. But it's not very conclusive tbh. What such studies/nombers show is that xenophobia can appear independently of contact with people from different cultures/origins, not that more contact necessarily decreases xenophobia (in other words, one correlation does not imply the other).
Though I do tend to think that's the case.

[Datepalm]

It appears to be the quality of the contact as well as the mere fact of it. Having actual friends, acquaintances, colleagues who are the actual minority in question may help alleviate xenophobia. Mere public encounter without any substance apparently might not. (On the other hand, I just saw a study arguing that children that take a public bus to school grow up to be much better mannered and more considerate. So that's a win for buses.)

[Eyelesbarrow]

DP

this might interest you and might be useful to your thesis (if you are still unaware of it)

It's an award-winning short film about black and white people interactions while on PT, this one, the tram. 

ETA I am a real big fan of PT, especially here in Berlin. There are crazies and unpleasant racist people on the train (one asked Mr Eyelesbarrow if he bought me from China and if so how much?) just like in every other big city. But really, my number one PT fear is being decapitated by a crazy person.

 

[ljkeane]

54 minutes ago, Eyelesbarrow said:

But really, my number one PT fear is being decapitated by a crazy person.

 

Well I'm never getting the bus again. My slightly increased contribution to global warming is definitely your fault Eyelesbarrow.

[Jo498]

In my experience, PT strains tolerance at least as much as it trains tolerance, mostly regardless of ethnicity. I perfectly understand if people rather avoided it but there is certainly also something inhuman to the isolationism brought about by only/mostly going to places in a closed personal vehicle and facing others only enclosed in their metal boxes.

[DunderMifflin]

48 minutes ago, Jo498 said:

In my experience, PT strains tolerance at least as much as it trains tolerance, mostly regardless of ethnicity. I perfectly understand if people rather avoided it but there is certainly also something inhuman to the isolationism brought about by only/mostly going to places in a closed personal vehicle and facing others only enclosed in their metal boxes.

I'd make the case that PT systems particularly in major cities are equally inhuman. People packed in so tightly. I'm thinking of NY subway circa late 80s and 90s, it was the opposite of a place to learn about tolerance from others. You had to hide your valuables and money before you went down there. They are much safer today but I still think it's an overall stressful and aggressive atmosphere when so many people are packed in together.

 

Last time I went down there pretty much everybody got on their phone or tablet as soon as they got on the train. I just have this picture in my head of somebody on the train blogging about how cool they are with Muslims rather than speaking to the Muslim sitting next to them.

[baxus]

Though I've had my driver's license for a bit over a decade now, I've never liked driving in Belgrade. It's just too much stress and hassle, and with very limited parking options in the city's center, and traffic jams becoming worse, it's just not worth it. Too often, with all the bus lanes, I even get there faster by bus.

That being said, I don't really socialize with other people on the bus, I rather read a book and/or listen to music.

Bottom line is, I very much agree with Jo498 that public transportation strains tolerance at least as much as it trains tolerance. Even so, driving in my hometown is too often an even worse option.

 

[Jo498]

Admittedly, I have not so much experience with extremely crowded or third world public transportation. I think the worst I have experienced was an extremely crowded night train from Italy to Munich and (especially) riding with German soccer fans in the same train because one forgot to check that there was a soccer match when thinking about a shopping or museum trip to the big city... I don't disagree with Dunder Miffin.

A few weeks ago I read a rather interesting article with historical sources on the beginning of segregation in public transport in the early 20th century America. Interesting because of the forced closeness of PT there rose such tensions that segregation seemed the best way to keep the peace at all.