bemused Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Jon's Buddy Borroq, Ghost - and Some Overlooked Allies Part I - Borroq While posting on the WoW forum about Borroq, I realized (yes, at this late date) that there's even more reason to feel positive about Borroq and his boar than I had previously thought. I've always felt that they would be on Jon's side, most obviously based on Borroq calling Jon "Brother". I even saw a possibility that the boar lowering his head was a mark of recognition or perhaps respect, such as many wildlings gave as they passed Jon. (I'll come back to this.) Our first introduction to Borroq comes through Varamyr, in the prologue... Once, when Lump was ten, Haggon had taken him to a gathering of such. The wargs were the most numerous in that company, the wolf-brothers, but the boy had found the others stranger and more fascinating. Borroq looked so much like his boar that all he lacked was tusks, Orell had his eagle, Briar her shadowcat (the moment he saw them, Lump wanted a shadowcat of his own), the goat woman Grisella … Many of us take Varamyr's thoughts on the second life as a prediction, in whole or part, of what will happen following the attack on Jon. My feeling is that while the prologue is full of good information, pertinent in many places, it's misleading (intentionally) in regard to what will follow Jon's last chapter. Rather than predicting what will happen to Jon at the end of the book, I really feel a lot of it is related to Ghost, specifically. (More on that ahead) For many reasons, I don't believe Jon is dead - not even temporarily. That's a firmly-held related premise. (I'll link to the thread detailing my reasons, including a breakdown of the assassination scene, at the end.) The gathering of skinchangers makes me think of a North American phenomenon, a Trappers' Rendezvous. They would meet at a certain time of year in a certain location, to exchange news from the various regions they'd been traveling in, do a bit of trading, socialise, and generally have a good time before going their own way again. What is so easy to read past in Varamyr's recollection, is that the animals present include predator and prey, with a top predator, wolves, outnumbering the rest. Yet Varamyr notes no fighting, no danger to the boar or the goat. Now, let's move on to Jon's first encounter with Borroq in ADWD, Jon XII ... Amongst the riders came one man afoot, with some big beast trotting at his heels. A boar, Jon saw. A monstrous boar. Twice the size of Ghost, the creature was covered with coarse black hair, with tusks as long as a man's arm. Jon had never seen a boar so huge or ugly. The man beside him was no beauty either; hulking, black-browed, he had a flat nose, heavy jowls dark with stubble, small black close-set eyes. “Borroq.” Tormund turned his head and spat. “A skinchanger.” It was not a question. Somehow he knew. It's been pretty well established by readers that the appearance of a boar presages change - of lord, king, regime, etc. .. A monstrous boar.. Jon had never seen a boar so huge or ugly. I think this implies greater change and upheaval than the mere downfall and change of a leader or head of state, where often the kingdom survives more or less intact and the laws and traditions of society continue much as before. The boar's size accentuautes all the other hints we have throughout the books that truly profound change is coming. It's misleading when Tormund turns his head and spits. We're predisposed to take it to mean that Tormund has no use for Borroq. Other characters have used the gesture in just this way... When they saw who the Watch had sent, Harma turned her head and spat, and one of Varamyr's wolves bared its teeth and growled. .. ASOS, Jon XDaario turned his head and spat. "That's for Brown Ben Plumm. ..." ... ADWD, Dany VI ... but my search only showed Tormund using anything like it while embarrassed at having made a mistake, himself... The king gave the older man an irritated look. “Tormund, someday try thinking before you speak. I know it was Craster. I asked Jon to see if he would tell it true.” “Har.” Tormund spat. “Well, I stepped in that!” He grinned at Jon. ... ASoS, Jon .. or punctuating his declaration..."Gave you my word on it, didn't I? The word of Tormund Giantsbane. Strong as iron, 'tis." He turned and spat. ... Jon XII So, if it has one meaning, it may be to ward off any bad consequences to his actions, like a pinch of salt over the shoulder.. or he may simply need to spit. Looking at the scene in question, this makes Tormund spitting seem like intentional misdirection. After all, Borroq is one of his most trusted rearguard, it's unlikely that Tormund thinks poorly of him. Jon XII continues.. Ghost turned his head. The falling snow had masked the boar’s scent, but now the white wolf had the smell. He padded out in front of Jon, his teeth bared in a silent snarl. "No!" Jon snapped. "Ghost, down. Stay. Stay!" "Boars and wolves," said Tormund. "Best keep that beast o' yours locked up tonight. I'll see that Borroq does the same with his pig."...<snip> When Ghost catches the boar's scent he takes up an agressively protective stance. Jon, undeveloped as he is, has to issue sharp verbal commands to control him... Tormund's "Boars and wolves" reminds us that they are natural enemies (wolves being the main predator of boars).. Using "beast" to describe Ghost implies that (because of Jon's imperfect bond), Ghost may give in to natural impulses (so, best lock him up). Tormund says he'll see that Borroq does the same with his "pig" . This sounds much more domesticated than beast or monster and as we see later, Borroq doesn't need to lock him up at all.. Jon first sees the boar as "some big beast" - yet it's trotting at Borroq's heels. Its appearance is menacing, but its behaviour is docile. (At this point in the scene, Tormund as well as Bowen and his men enter into the tunnel, so Tormund isn't present to make any illuminating comments from here on).. We continue... Only Jon Snow and his guards were left. The skinchanger stopped ten yards away. His monster pawed at the mud, snuffling. A light powdering of snow covered the boar’s humped black back. He gave a snort and lowered his head, and for half a heartbeat Jon thought he was about to charge. To either side of him, his men lowered their spears.“Brother,” Borroq said. “You’d best go on. We are about to close the gate.” “You do that,” Borroq said. “You close it good and tight. They’re coming, crow.” He smiled as ugly a smile as Jon had ever seen and made his way to the gate. The boar stalked after him. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them. Notice that Jon still sees the boar as a "monster", as opposed to Tormund's "pig". Pawing at the mud and snuffling might seem agressive, but it might not agree with the wild boar reputation for sudden, swift charges.. I suspect the snuffling was a sign of testing for scents.. George reminds us that the snow masks scent by mentioning the snow on the boar's back. ... He gave a snort and lowered his head... This could be ominous, but within half a heartbeat, Borroq says "Brother"... So is Borroq keeping the boar in check, or is the boar lowering his head in a silent "brother" to match Borroq's ? It's open to question. Just previously, when Tormund's warriors were passing Jon, some... smiled at him like long-lost kin, though a few of those smiles discomfited Jon Snow more than any glare. We are conditioned to read "ugly smile" and think "menacing" .. but Borroq is an ugly man.. so I've always given him the benefit of the doubt. I really feel it was a genuine smile.I think he and his boar will play an important part in what's coming next in TWoW. There are two similar sentences bookening the above scene, that I blush to admit I only really paid attention to recently.. 1. The falling snow had masked the boar’s scent .... Since it's snowing heavily at Castle Black in Jon's last chapter... it's probably not the boar's scent that has Ghost upset. It's unlikely that it's wafting into Jon's quarters from away out in the lichyard. Borroq had taken up residence in one of the ancient tombs beside the castle lichyard. The company of men long dead seemed to suit him better than that of the living, and his boar seemed happy rooting amongst the graves, well away from other animals. ...Jon XIII When Jon sent Sam to Oldtown, he had the column assemble by the lichyard.. "No farewells. The fewer folk who know of this, the better. An hour before first light, by the lichyard."...AFfC, Samwell I; ADWD, Jon II The next morning, Sam found himself saddling the mare he'd ridden from Horn Hill and leading her toward the lichyard beside the eastern road .. AFfC , Samwell I We can see that the lichyard is well away from Castle Black proper. So when Mel tells Jon in Jon XIII.... "Borroq is the least of your concerns. This ranging …" , I think she's giving us a truth, whether she knows it or not . This brings us to the second sentence... 2. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them. ... I see this as a hint to the readers about their own future reaction to Jon's last chapter. George is telling us, in his inimitable way, that the "falling Snow" (not snow) has effectively "covered their tracks" in Jon's last chapter .. Tracks are being made - they're just obscured by the readers' concern for Jon and the fact that we're stuck in his POV. Some won't like where I'm going next, but come along anyway .. .. Jon (George) uses the words scent and smell in that scene. Later, Jon will use a third word .. It’s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. ..Jon XIII ... and in the action of the story, the assassination attempt will be coming right up . I suggest this will be a repeat performance. Previously, at the end of ASoS, we also saw death looming for Jon - on his suicide mission... “No need for that, my lord,” said Ser Alliser. “Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night’s Watch.” Thorne was much the more clever of the two, Jon realized; this had his stink all over it. He was trapped. “I’ll go,” he said in a clipped, curt voice. ... ASoS Jon X There doesn't seem to be much doubt that this would indeed have been the end of Jon, if not for the sudden unexpected intervention by Stannis. I expect another intervention. And "his stink" is just one of many clues that has led me to believe that Thorne is at Castle Black, an off-page, but present enemy hiding out in the wormways. (That's premise number 2) If I remember my previous search correctly, these are the only two uses made of "his stink". I had noticed this part long ago, and my recent Borroq focused re-read only reinforces my opinion that Borroq and his boar are well intentioned and that Thorne is back at CB - once again, the brain behind a plot to kill Jon. Jon recognises "somehow" that Borroq is a skinchanger, but his undeveloped bond may limit how much he can sense, if we compare to what Varamyr could sense of Jon. When he claimed the eagle that had been Orell's, he could feel the other skinchanger raging at his presence. Orell had been slain by the turncloak crow Jon Snow, and his hate for his killer had been so strong that Varamyr found himself hating the beastling boy as well. He had known what Snow was the moment he saw that great white direwolf stalking silent at his side. One skinchanger can always sense another. Mance should have let me take the direwolf. There would be a second life worthy of a king. He could have done it, he did not doubt. The gift was strong in Snow, but the youth was untaught, still fighting his nature when he should have gloried in it. We don't know how much Varamyr could sense about Jon and Ghost at first sight and how much followed afterward through observation, but at least the strength of Jon's gift must have been sensed, not observed. In any case, there seems little doubt that without a more intimate experience of his own bond, Jon is more worried by the outward appearance of Borroq and his boar than he needs to be. He doesn't fully appreciate the "oneness" that exists between them, or how gifted Borroq may be, while Borroq is equipped to assess the strenghth of Jon's gift ,and for all we know, more. Naturally, I recognise that "a second life worthy of a king" seems likely to apply to Jon (assuming Ghost outlives him) ... I just don't see it being now. Much of the rest, I feel, is meant to inform us about Ghost. Part II - Ghost Varamyr's prologue explains the second life.. and Bran III elaborates... "Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her." "A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you." I suspect Ghost's name indicates something the same is going on with him. Maybe the "king" alluded to is not Jon.. Perhaps there was a king who became a greenseer,long ago ... King or not, I've long felt there's another greenseer helping to guide Ghost (not Bloodraven, not Bran. When Jon finally completes the bond, there won't be a presence raging at being taken over, like Varamyr experienced with Orell. It may even be different from Bran's experience in the raven.Tat seems to be a neutral, acquiescent presence. Far from being resented, or even simply accepted,Jon is likely to be welcomed, since to bonding Ghost to Jon and enlisting both in the great cause was always the desired goal. (There are a number of instances, e.g... Ghost-pup crawling away, conveniently ensuring that he will be found by Jon, Ghost leading Jon to the obsidian, both Jon's wolf dreams, Ghost wandering off after the Mel encounter, etc., that to my mind, cannot all adequately be explained by Bran's and/or Bloodraven's presence alone (or even together). I'm open to getting into these examples in discussion (I've discussed them a bit on other threads) but in the interest of keeping this OP from sprawling too much, I just want to state it as another related premise, for now.) While in Tormund's camp, Jon thinks .. Ghost was the only protection Jon needed; the direwolf could sniff out foes, even those who hid their enmity behind smiles. ... Jon XI Jon recognises this as fact, but is as yet unable to take full advantage of it. For now, the person in question and Ghost have to be present, for Jon to be able to guage Ghost's reaction (much like any dog owner can). His senses only seem to be amplified if he's touching Ghost, or when dreaming. The smells are stronger in my wolf dreams, he reflected, ...Jon II In the shadow of the Wall, the direwolf brushed up against his fingers. For half a heartbeat the night came alive with a thousand smells, and Jon Snow heard the crackle of the crust breaking on a patch of old snow. Someone was behind him, he realized suddenly. Someone who smelled warm as a summer day.... Jon VI Ghost nuzzled up against his shoulder, and Jon draped an arm around him. He could smell Horse's unwashed breeches, the sweet scent Satin combed into his beard, the rank sharp smell of fear, the giant's overpowering musk. ...Jon VII There are occasional moments of breakthrough when Jon is lost in thought. Just before that last example from Jon VII, there was this...Jon smelled Tom Barleycorn before he saw him. Or was it Ghost who smelled him? Of late, Jon Snow sometimes felt as if he and the direwolf were one, even awake. The great white wolf appeared first, shaking off the snow. A few moments later Tom was there. ... Jon VII ... But Jon had just been riding in silence, thinking about his men (Tom and the others) and dwelling on the bonds between them and himself ... He was momentarily more open to the very concept of bonding. That may have made it easier. (And there is that other notable example from ASoS, after he leaves the bath house - Jon is confused and lost in thought when his hunger for WF -and Val- morphs into Ghost's actual hunger, as he returns to CB) Coming back to ADWD and Jon's last chapter, I'm convinced it's impossible for Ghost to be smelling the boar. It's snowing heavily and the wind is from the south, while the lichyard is by the east road. Besides, when they first met, the boar stopped only 30 feet away - that's no distance at all, if Ghost was determined to get at him. At the time, he was only restrained by a verbal command, not four walls. It doesn't make sense that Ghost should be more worked up in Jon XIII, when he can't see or smell the boar, to the point of showing himself to be frustrated with Jon. Here's the progression... 1. Jon tells Mel , "... And so long as Borroq and his boar are about, I dare not let him loose." ..<snip>... "Ghost would go after him if he were loose, and one or both of them would not survive the meeting.""Borroq is the least of your concerns. This ranging..." <snip> …" 2. “That’d be sweet, m’lord,” said Fulk the Flea, “but your wolf’s in no mood for company today.” Mully agreed. “He tried to take a bite o’ me, he did.” “Ghost?” Jon was shocked. “Unless your lordship has some other white wolf, aye. I never seen him like this, m’lord. All wild-like, I mean.” 3. The big white direwolf would not lie still. He paced from one end of the armory to the other, past the cold forge and back again. “Easy, Ghost,” Jon called. “Down. Sit, Ghost. Down.” Yet when he made to touch him, the wolf bristled and bared his teeth. It’s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. 4. Satin helped them (Bowen and Othell) back into their cloaks. As they walked through the armory, Ghost sniffed at them, his tail upraised and bristling. ...<snip>...The snow was falling heavily outside. "Wind's from the south," Yarwyck observed. "It's blowing the snow right up against the Wall. See?" 5. Horse and Rory had replaced Fulk and Mully at the armory door with the change of watch. "With me," Jon told them, when the time came. Ghost would have followed as well, but as the wolf came padding after them, Jon grabbed him by the scruff of his neck and wrestled him back inside. Borroq might be amongst those gathering at the Shieldhall. The last thing he needed just now was his wolf savaging the skinchanger's boar. It's pretty clear that Mully has been Bowen's man all along (issuing the half blind horse to Val and much more likely to be reporting to Bowen than Edd was), but he hardly seems to be a driving force behind the coming attack. Yet Ghost merely bristles at Bowen, who we know is a major conspirator, while trying to bite Mully. I don't think there's been another instance of Ghost baring his teeth at Jon or of Jon having to wrestle Ghost to where he wants him to be.. At first I thought Mully must have done something in Jon's quarters, like tamper with Longclaw (because Jon will later be unable to draw it) and this is still a possibility.. but I later noticed that during the attack, Jon's fingers may actually be stiff and clumsy, not from lack of flexing, but from cold. ... Ironically, Jon (who has shown concern that others have warmer gloves or thicker gloves) may not be wearing his own. ... When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. ... How could he feel that through his gloves? So, what did Mully do to elicit such a reaction from Ghost? It's possible(given my premise) that when he entered Jon's quarters, Mully had had very recent contact with Thorne, who we know was conspiring with Bowen before Jon sent him out and who has, at least twice before, tried to bring about Jon's death. Ghost doesn't react as much to Bowen because he knows the greater enemy is somewhere outside. If I'm right about a "ghost" in Ghost, then his awareness of danger isn't limited to smell, or sensing the emotions of someone present. Mormont's raven (or "Raven", if you prefer) is also agitated, but can only scream "Snow! Snow!" in warning. However, as we've seen, the raven is better able to observe clandestine comings and goings or overhear conversations. .. If Bloodraven is in the bird and another greenseer is resident in Ghost, then what one knows, the other knows, through the shared awaress of the "weirnet". There's a nice touch near the end of the shieldhall scene... "And where will you be, crow?" Borroq thundered. "Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?" This is a perfect set up for Jon's response, which will bring the free folk to their feet. On first reading it seems belligerent , maybe even insulting... but it's both a useful cue and a fairly accurate assessment of how Jon has been treating Ghost. Part III - Overlooked Allies Jon has allies we can count on present at Castle Black : no doubt all the rangers - Big Liddle, Rory, Fulk the Flea, Tom Barleycorn, Luke of Longtown, Leathers, Jax and Emrick (all I can think of, at a quick glance), Othell and maybe all his builders except Alf, but including new recruit Horse .. and at least some stewards - Aaron and Satin (Jon's I think) and probably Ty ... Clydas, maybe at heart, though (I think) roped into sharing the contents of the pink letter. Add Flint and Norrey and their men. ... And I would count Mel and Devan (mentioned in Jon's audience with Selyse) as probable allies. But there are others... Of the 500 - 1000 warriors that cross the wall with Tormund a few , mostly leaders, are singled out by name. Most of those named are present at Castle Black during Jon XIII. We can reasonably expect that, as a group, they would side with Jon post mutiny. As they passed south of the wall, a smaller number were brought into sharper focus. Many probably echoed the sentiments of Brogg... None knelt, but many gave him their oaths. "What Tormund swore, I swear," declared black-haired Brogg, a man of few words. .. In other words he's following Tormund's lead in agreeing to Jon's terms, and I'm sure Jon can count on Tormund and Toregg. Some brought gifts for Jon (apart from the general toll) like Devyn Sealskinner and Harle the Huntsman. ... Gerrick Kingsblood tried to entice by dangling his daughters and his "bloodline", but will settle his hopes on Selyse. A few swore themselves and their weapons directly to Jon, in something very like becoming a lord's sworn sword, south of the wall. I have a feeling these will be singled out again for acts of loyalty in TWoW. Soren Shieldbreaker bowed his head an inch and growled, "Soren's axe is yours, Jon Snow, if ever you have need of such." Howd Wanderer swore his oath upon his sword, as nicked and pitted a piece of iron as Jon had ever seen. At the end of Jon XIII, Jon has immediate need of both axe and sword, and I think his need will be met when the action picks up at Castle Black. Besides these, I think there are a couple of other wildling weapons that will be employed to aid or defend Jon ... Morna White Mask ... The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. I've long thought that Morna would have a hand in healing Jon, because I see her as a völva or spækona (or in English use, Vala). In looking at who swore their weapons to Jon, I'm reminded that in Norse culture, these women (apart from being healers) actually took part in battles - either by working supporting magic from home or on the battlefield. Morna's mask, while tying her to the old gods, is also the equivalent of the sword and the axe. Though she's not noted by Jon in the sheildhall, by any logic, she should be present. She was no farther away than Tormund, and Jon had asked for all the leaders (leading men) to be at the meeting. The meeting was scheduled to be about the Hardhome mission. Because I think Val and Morna have the same, or a very similar vocation, I think Morna is with Val, together doing what they can ... seeing what they can to support the mission. (There's something of a hint in the fact that people went to Hardhome on the strength of Mother Mole's vision, in the first place.) There's one more wildling with a weapon to aid Jon - one that was given even more attention at the crossing... but he's not from among the warriors. When nine-and-ninety hostages had shuffled by them to pass beneath the Wall, Tormund Giantsbane produced the last one. "My son Dryn. You'll see he's well taken care of, crow, or I'll cook your black liver up and eat it." Jon gave the boy a close inspection. Bran's age, or the age he would have been if Theon had not killed him. Dryn had none of Bran's sweetness, though. He was a chunky boy, with short legs, thick arms, and a wide red face—a miniature version of his father, with a shock of dark brown hair. "He'll serve as my own page," Jon promised Tormund. "Hear that, Dryn? See that you don't get above yourself." To Jon he said, "He'll need a good beating from time to time. Be careful o' his teeth, though. He bites." Dryn would not have gone to Oakenshield with Tormund. As Jon's page, he would not have been sent on to Eastwatch or the Shadow tower. And with all the other details he has to deal with, who would Jon have asked to see Dryn was well taken care of... fed, clothed, given a place to sleep ? A steward, naturally. Tormund tells Jon that he bites (but at least half jokingly). I doubt that was passed on by Jon. We haven't seen Dryn,but George slips in a reminder through Tormund... “Now there’s a bird with sense. How much do you want for him, Snow? I gave you a son, the least you could do is give me the bloody bird.” Dryn may already have been given duties about Jon's quarters, and could go there while our attention is elsewhere. Or, he may be being held by someone, somewhere (insurance against Tormund) ...but if so, he has a weapon. He's a miniature version of his father, and Jon characterized Tormund to Stannis as "a good friend and a bad enemy". Of course the "falling Snow" has covered his tracks too. But if he has had to bite his way out of a tricky situation, Jon's quarters are probably the first place he'd run to... which makes him one of the candidates to release Ghost. (Mel, Devan or Satin might be others.) I'm betting that those four "wildlings with weapons", Soren, Howd, Morna and Dryn, along with Borroq, will make some stand-out contributions in Jon's interest, along with his more predictable allies. I have one more prediction that came up in an exchange between @Julia H. and myself in my Jon the Berserker thread. I had made reference to a parallel between the attack on Jon and a situation in The Sworn Sword. She wondered if there was a parallel to be made with The Mystery Knight, since the fighter's mantra to his shield, "Oak and iron guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell" made her think of the wildlings at Oakenshield ... but wondered what/who could stand in for "iron". Between the two of us, it occurred ... Oak(enshield) = Tormund , Iron = Iron Emmett. Tormund is there, but arrived a bit late. I would think Emmett should be there as leader / commander of the spearwives because Jon had specifically been pondering whether to include spearwives on the Hardhome mission. He might have been in the shieldhall, but not noted ..or (more likely) he might be just arriving, having had much farther to come than Tormund (and through heavy snow). It seems to me that we have one off-page enemy ,Thorne - who is present, but shouldn't be (and has not been mentioned) ... Two off-page allies, Morna and Emmett (not mentioned), who should be there and in my estimation, probably are ... Dryn who, we're reminded is there because of a "throwaway" mention by Tormund ... and Borroq who will serve as "brother", ally and a helpful guide for Jon in the matter of skinchanging. Just a side note.. as well as the possible Mystery Knight connection mentioned above, I feel there is a parallel to be found in The Sworn Sword to the method of the attack on Jon (which I think is detailed in one of my linked threads).. but there's another connection (perhaps mentioned elsewhere) that at first seems no more than amusing , that I now feel adds depth to that parallel .. In Jon VII, Tom Barleycorn, a ranger, is mentioned several times. It seems likely that he connects to The Sworn Sword and the peasants Dunk, Egg and Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield are trying to train to defend Standfast, and how (mainly Egg) got around the problem of multiple men named Wat (including two brothers) ... "We should give them village names, ser," Egg suggested, "like Ser Arlan of Pennytree, your old master." That might have worked, only their villages had no names, either. "Well," said Egg, "we could call them for their crops, ser." One village sat amongst bean fields, one planted mostly barleycorn, and the third cultivated rows of cabbages, carrots, onions, turnips, and melons. No one wanted to be a Cabbage or a Turnip, so the last lot became the Melons. They ended up with four Barleycorns, two Melons, and two Beans. As the brothers Wat were both Barleycorns, some further distinction was required. When the younger brother made mention of once having fallen down the village well, Bennis dubbed him "Wet Wat," and that was that. The men were thrilled to have been given "lord's names," save for Big Rob, who could not seem to remember whether he was a Bean or a Barleycorn. and Egg later mentions that..Will Barleycorn is to be married the next time the septon comes. Tom is likely a descendant of Will or maybe, one of the Wats. Fun..but wait.. Jon is struck in three of the four target areas pointed out by Ser Bennis in TSS, and Bowen appears to try to follow a Bennis-like instruction - to pull his weapon out (.. stick, twist and rip ... get it out.. etc.) I speculate that Bowen, Wick & co. also had direction from a knight -Thorne (who previously only taught rudiments) .. and I can't help but notice that Bennis gives one Wat a somewhat mean-spirited nickname. I have seen the Tom Barleycorn repetitions used in relating Jon to a "John Barleycorn" (or Corn King) figure , presaging his death (and ressurrection) put forth in many threads, here and on other sites. Here's a version of the folk song ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsIdhSzyx8M (From my "berserker" perspective, I love the line from the song .. "and little Sir John sprung up his head, and so amazed them all" ... because he simply does it naturally.) My Links: Jon the Berserker - Mulling over Mully - Bowen and Alliser - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/91594-of-bowen-and-alliser-conspiracy-and-mail-tampering/&hl=%2Bbowen+%2Balliser..conspiracy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Dew Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 very nice analysis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Great OP as ever, @bemused! So much to comment on, so little time... I'll just throw a few things out there, and I'll come back to it all later. I fully agree on Borroq; I think he is definitely an ally, and I suspect he will play a (fairly) important part in the aftermath of the assassination attempt. Yes, like you, I think Jon is wounded and not dead. I find it very interesting when you talk about boar = change, and with Borroq's being such a monstrous boar, it might mean significant changes not just your run-of-the-mill minor ones. I like it! Could this change possibly have something to do with (one of) my pet theories about the "pure" FM blood of the wildlings being very important at the Wall (and how they'll take over CB)? Also, you know I'm of the same mind regarding Morna. She will be important, and I can't wait to read how it will all unfold! One last thing (for now)... The "second life worthy of a king" line we get from Varamyr... I think it refers to Jon. I think one possibility for Jon's arc is that he will become King of Winter, but he will die (near-ish the very end), and in Ghost he, a king, will live his second life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 7 hours ago, bemused said: Jon's Buddy Borroq, Ghost - and Some Overlooked Allies Part I - Borroq While posting on the WoW forum about Borroq, I realized (yes, at this late date) that there's even more reason to feel positive about Borroq and his boar than I had previously thought. I've always felt that they would be on Jon's side, most obviously based on Borroq calling Jon "Brother". I even saw a possibility that the boar lowering his head was a mark of recognition or perhaps respect, such as many wildlings gave as they passed Jon. (I'll come back to this.) Our first introduction to Borroq comes through Varamyr, in the prologue... I feel that George moved certain people to Jon just when needed. Quote 2. The falling snow covered up their tracks behind them. ... I see this as a hint to the readers about their own future reaction to Jon's last chapter. George is telling us, in his inimitable way, that the "falling Snow" (not snow) has effectively "covered their tracks" in Jon's last chapter .. Tracks are being made - they're just obscured by the readers' concern for Jon and the fact that we're stuck in his POV. Some won't like where I'm going next, but come along anyway .. .. Jon (George) uses the words scent and smell in that scene. Later, Jon will use a third word .. It’s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. ..Jon XIII ... and in the action of the story, the assassination attempt will be coming right up . I suggest this will be a repeat performance. Previously, at the end of ASoS, we also saw death looming for Jon - on his suicide mission... “No need for that, my lord,” said Ser Alliser. “Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night’s Watch.” Thorne was much the more clever of the two, Jon realized; this had his stink all over it. He was trapped. “I’ll go,” he said in a clipped, curt voice. ... ASoS Jon X There doesn't seem to be much doubt that this would indeed have been the end of Jon, if not for the sudden unexpected intervention by Stannis. I expect another intervention. And "his stink" is just one of many clues that has led me to believe that Thorne is at Castle Black, an off-page, but present enemy hiding out in the wormways. (That's premise number 2) If I remember my previous search correctly, these are the only two uses made of "his stink". I had noticed this part long ago, and my recent Borroq focused re-read only reinforces my opinion that Borroq and his boar are well intentioned and that Thorne is back at CB - once again, the brain behind a plot to kill Jon. You know what else has a stink??? Life. A Storm of Swords - Samwell III Then, by the door, one of the shadows moved. A big one. This is still a dream, Sam prayed. Oh, make it that I'm still asleep, make it a nightmare. He's dead, he's dead, I saw him die. "He's come for the babe," Gilly wept. "He smells him. A babe fresh-born stinks o' life. He's come for the life." Quote Jon recognises "somehow" that Borroq is a skinchanger, but his undeveloped bond may limit how much he can sense, if we compare to what Varamyr could sense of Jon. I admit that on my first read, I figured Borroq to be more typical "bad guy". It was only on subsequent re-reads, and more understanding on George undoing cliches, that I really grew interested on the pig man and his beast. And for sure, the presence of pig or boar is a symbol of change, and Borroq's pig is a monster! TWOW and ADOS are sure to be amazing stories. Quote Part II - Ghost Varamyr's prologue explains the second life.. and Bran III elaborates... "Someone else was in the raven," he told Lord Brynden, once he had returned to his own skin. "Some girl. I felt her." "A woman, of those who sing the song of earth," his teacher said. "Long dead, yet a part of her remains, just as a part of you would remain in Summer if your boy's flesh were to die upon the morrow. A shadow on the soul. She will not harm you." I suspect Ghost's name indicates something the same is going on with him. Maybe the "king" alluded to is not Jon.. Perhaps there was a king who became a greenseer,long ago ... King or not, I've long felt there's another greenseer helping to guide Ghost (not Bloodraven, not Bran. When Jon finally completes the bond, there won't be a presence raging at being taken over, like Varamyr experienced with Orell. It may even be different from Bran's experience in the raven.Tat seems to be a neutral, acquiescent presence. Far from being resented, or even simply accepted,Jon is likely to be welcomed, since to bonding Ghost to Jon and enlisting both in the great cause was always the desired goal. Are you thinking that a long dead greenseer king is in Ghost, and that is who is helping guide Ghost to Jon? Quote At first I thought Mully must have done something in Jon's quarters, like tamper with Longclaw (because Jon will later be unable to draw it) and this is still a possibility.. but I later noticed that during the attack, Jon's fingers may actually be stiff and clumsy, not from lack of flexing, but from cold. ... Ironically, Jon (who has shown concern that others have warmer gloves or thicker gloves) may not be wearing his own. ... When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. ... How could he feel that through his gloves? I don't know why, maybe lack of real evidence which means mostly speculation, but I never liked the "iced sheath" idea... as much as a "frozen sword" would fit figuratively. I always leaned much more to this side of thought that you mentioned... it was cold, Jon maybe hadn't practiced his hand stretching, and he could feel the blood welling. Quote There's a nice touch near the end of the shieldhall scene... "And where will you be, crow?" Borroq thundered. "Hiding here in Castle Black with your white dog?" This is a perfect set up for Jon's response, which will bring the free folk to their feet. On first reading it seems belligerent , maybe even insulting... but it's both a useful cue and a fairly accurate assessment of how Jon has been treating Ghost. Nice! Quote At the end of Jon XIII, Jon has immediate need of both axe and sword, and I think his need will be met when the action picks up at Castle Black. Besides these, I think there are a couple of other wildling weapons that will be employed to aid or defend Jon ... Morna White Mask ... The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred. I've long thought that Morna would have a hand in healing Jon, because I see her as a völva or spækona (or in English use, Vala). In looking at who swore their weapons to Jon, I'm reminded that in Norse culture, these women (apart from being healers) actually took part in battles - either by working supporting magic from home or on the battlefield. Morna's mask, while tying her to the old gods, is also the equivalent of the sword and the axe. Though she's not noted by Jon in the sheildhall, by any logic, she should be present. She was no farther away than Tormund, and Jon had asked for all the leaders (leading men) to be at the meeting. The meeting was scheduled to be about the Hardhome mission. Because I think Val and Morna have the same, or a very similar vocation, I think Morna is with Val, together doing what they can ... seeing what they can to support the mission. (There's something of a hint in the fact that people went to Hardhome on the strength of Mother Mole's vision, in the first place.) There's one more wildling with a weapon to aid Jon - one that was given even more attention at the crossing... but he's not from among the warriors. There is definitely something to Morna. The way she pays homage to Jon as she passes through the wall, "The warrior witch Morna removed her weirwood mask just long enough to kiss his gloved hand and swear to be his man or his woman, whichever he preferred," reminds me of the völva practice of seidr, which can be associated with gender non-conformity and sexuality. But, you probably already know that Quote When nine-and-ninety hostages had shuffled by them to pass beneath the Wall, Tormund Giantsbane produced the last one. "My son Dryn. You'll see he's well taken care of, crow, or I'll cook your black liver up and eat it." Jon gave the boy a close inspection. Bran's age, or the age he would have been if Theon had not killed him. Dryn had none of Bran's sweetness, though. He was a chunky boy, with short legs, thick arms, and a wide red face—a miniature version of his father, with a shock of dark brown hair. "He'll serve as my own page," Jon promised Tormund. "Hear that, Dryn? See that you don't get above yourself." To Jon he said, "He'll need a good beating from time to time. Be careful o' his teeth, though. He bites." Dryn would not have gone to Oakenshield with Tormund. As Jon's page, he would not have been sent on to Eastwatch or the Shadow tower. And with all the other details he has to deal with, who would Jon have asked to see Dryn was well taken care of... fed, clothed, given a place to sleep ? A steward, naturally. Tormund tells Jon that he bites (but at least half jokingly). I doubt that was passed on by Jon. For some reason,when I just re-read this right here and now, this made me think of Stranger. Quote I have one more prediction that came up in an exchange between Julia H and myself in my Jon the Berserker thread. I had made reference to a parallel between the attack on Jon and a situation in The Sworn Sword. She wondered if there was a parallel to be made with The Mystery Knight, since the fighter's mantra to his shield, "Oak and iron guard me well, or else I'm dead and doomed to hell" made her think of the wildlings at Oakenshield ... but wondered what/who could stand in for "iron". Between the two of us, it occurred ... Oak(enshield) = Tormund , Iron = Iron Emmett. Damn, that was a really good catch between you and @Julia H. Quote Just a side note.. as well as the possible Mystery Knight connection mentioned above, I feel there is a parallel to be found in The Sworn Sword to the method of the attack on Jon (which I think is detailed in one of my linked threads).. but there's another connection (perhaps mentioned elsewhere) that at first seems no more than amusing , that I now feel adds depth to that parallel .. In Jon VII, Tom Barleycorn, a ranger, is mentioned several times. It seems likely that he connects to The Sworn Sword and the peasants Dunk, Egg and Ser Bennis of the Brown Shield are trying to train to defend Standfast, and how (mainly Egg) got around the problem of multiple men named Wat (including two brothers) ... "We should give them village names, ser," Egg suggested, "like Ser Arlan of Pennytree, your old master." That might have worked, only their villages had no names, either. "Well," said Egg, "we could call them for their crops, ser." One village sat amongst bean fields, one planted mostly barleycorn, and the third cultivated rows of cabbages, carrots, onions, turnips, and melons. No one wanted to be a Cabbage or a Turnip, so the last lot became the Melons. They ended up with four Barleycorns, two Melons, and two Beans. As the brothers Wat were both Barleycorns, some further distinction was required. When the younger brother made mention of once having fallen down the village well, Bennis dubbed him "Wet Wat," and that was that. The men were thrilled to have been given "lord's names," save for Big Rob, who could not seem to remember whether he was a Bean or a Barleycorn. and Egg later mentions that..Will Barleycorn is to be married the next time the septon comes. Tom is likely a descendant of Will or maybe, one of the Wats. Fun..but wait.. Jon is struck in three of the four target areas pointed out by Ser Bennis in TSS, and Bowen appears to try to follow a Bennis-like instruction - to pull his weapon out (.. stick, twist and rip ... get it out.. etc.) I speculate that Bowen, Wick & co. also had direction from a knight -Thorne (who previously only taught rudiments) .. and I can't help but notice that Bennis gives one Wat a somewhat mean-spirited nickname. I have seen the Tom Barleycorn repetitions used in relating Jon to a "John Barleycorn" (or Corn King) figure , presaging his death (and ressurrection) put forth in many threads, here and on other sites. Here's a version of the folk song ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fsIdhSzyx8M Also this, small, but telling: A Dance with Dragons - Jon XI "And this food will be paid for … how, if I may ask?" With gold, from the Iron Bank of Braavos, Jon might have replied. Instead he said, "I have agreed that the free folk may keep their furs and pelts. They will need those for warmth when winter comes. All other wealth they must surrender. Gold and silver, amber, gemstones, carvings, anything of value. We will ship it all across the narrow sea to be sold in the Free Cities." "All the wealth o' the wildlings," said The Norrey. "That should buy you a bushel o' barleycorn. Two bushels, might be." I am sure I have more when I give this a little re-read and some more thought, but this was excellent so far (as usual). I am definitely going to pay more attention to Mully, and will give your other thread a read. It seems attention was overdue for a deeper look at Borroq. Nice job. 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St Daga Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 9 hours ago, bemused said: Many of us take Varamyr's thoughts on the second life as a prediction, in whole or part, of what will happen following the attack on Jon. My feeling is that while the prologue is full of good information, pertinent in many places, it's misleading (intentionally) in regard to what will follow Jon's last chapter. I certainly hope it is misleading about Jon's fate. I can't tell you how many times I have read that chapter and tried to make sense of it. I read it three times initially, right in a row, with my mind buzzing in WTF mode. I don't think it impossible for Jon to pass out and warg into Ghost, much as he would in a wolf dream. I wouldn't be surprised if that is exactly what happens. Jon has blacked out in berserker mode before, this could be much the same, as a protective mechanism I also don't think that Jon has died, but possibly that is wishful thinking on my part. However, if he dies now and is resurrected, then I think he might be alive at the end of this story, and if he currently lives, then I think he will die after his purpose is fulfilled. I think the Varamyr prologue actually is there for several reasons, such as giving us more information on warging and skinchanging, as well as to bring our minds back to Robb's death and actions at the time of his murder, such as the possibility that he warged into Grey Wind, and after Grey Wind was killed, Robb may have reentered his own body for a time. Pure speculation, but Catelyn at the end of the red wedding, clawing her face and her hysterical laughter also lead to some possible idea's about Robb's ultimate fate, as mirrored by Thistles actions. GRRM layers so many meanings into his text, it is hard to know all the implications. Such as the Bael the Bard story, which seems to touch on many moments during our story, little bits here and there. As for Jon, I think you are spot on when you say that the prologue misdirects us to Jon's possible fate because we are feed that info in the very same book. We see a Warg/Skinchanger die and how he attempts to live on, and we apply that to Jon, the idea's actually serve as book ends to aDwD. 9 hours ago, bemused said: Some won't like where I'm going next, but come along anyway .. .. Jon (George) uses the words scent and smell in that scene. Later, Jon will use a third word .. It’s that bloody boar. Even in here, Ghost can smell his stink. ..Jon XIII ... and in the action of the story, the assassination attempt will be coming right up . I suggest this will be a repeat performance. Previously, at the end of ASoS, we also saw death looming for Jon - on his suicide mission... “No need for that, my lord,” said Ser Alliser. “Lord Snow will do as we ask. He wants to show us that he is no turncloak. He wants to prove himself a loyal man of the Night’s Watch.” Thorne was much the more clever of the two, Jon realized; this had his stink all over it. He was trapped. “I’ll go,” he said in a clipped, curt voice. ... ASoS Jon X There doesn't seem to be much doubt that this would indeed have been the end of Jon, if not for the sudden unexpected intervention by Stannis. I expect another intervention. And "his stink" is just one of many clues that has led me to believe that Thorne is at Castle Black, an off-page, but present enemy hiding out in the wormways. (That's premise number 2) If I remember my previous search correctly, these are the only two uses made of "his stink". I had noticed this part long ago, and my recent Borroq focused re-read only reinforces my opinion that Borroq and his boar are well intentioned and that Thorne is back at CB - once again, the brain behind a plot to kill Jon. I think this is a great catch on Thorne. I know some people have the idea that Thorne might turn out to be an ally of Jon's, but I don't think that is possible. To much enmity between the two of them to repair. From the start, Thorne hated Jon, and it must stem back to Robert's Rebellion and his feelings about Ned. I also think that Jon probably is misled by his own past interaction with skinchangers. Jon doesn't really know what he is, but Orell recognized Jon from the start. And that was not a friendly relationship. Jon remembers Orell's eagle attacking, and lives with the scars to remind him. So it makes sense that Jon has no reason to trust other skinchangers or their familiar animals, and he assumes that Ghost feels the same way he does. Therefore, he applies his feelings incorrectly, directing them to Borroq and his boar, instead of thinking about other possibilities. 9 hours ago, bemused said: It's pretty clear that Mully has been Bowen's man all along (issuing the half blind horse to Val and much more likely to be reporting to Bowen than Edd was), but he hardly seems to be a driving force behind the coming attack. Yet Ghost merely bristles at Bowen, who we know is a major conspirator, while trying to bite Mully. I don't think there's been another instance of Ghost baring his teeth at Jon or of Jon having to wrestle Ghost to where he wants him to be.. At first I thought Mully must have done something in Jon's quarters, like tamper with Longclaw (because Jon will later be unable to draw it) and this is still a possibility.. but I later noticed that during the attack, Jon's fingers may actually be stiff and clumsy, not from lack of flexing, but from cold. ... Ironically, Jon (who has shown concern that others have warmer gloves or thicker gloves) may not be wearing his own. ... When he put his hand to the side of his neck, blood welled between his fingers. ... How could he feel that through his gloves? So, what did Mully do to elicit such a reaction from Ghost? It's possible(given my premise) that when he entered Jon's quarters, Mully had had very recent contact with Thorne, who we know was conspiring with Bowen before Jon sent him out and who has, at least twice before, tried to bring about Jon's death. Ghost doesn't react as much to Bowen because he knows the greater enemy is somewhere outside. This makes sense about Ghost sensing Thorne on Mully, if indeed they are in cahoots. We know that there are traitors in the mix, we just have to figure out who they are. Jon is so much like Ned, that while he doubts people, he does not suspect outright betrayal. I get a weird vibe around Clydas, as well. Ghost's behavior is also reminiscent of Grey Wind around the Frey's, Westerling's and Spicer's. Robb misinterpreted that behavior and Jon is doing the same thing with Ghost. I literally have yelled in frustration at both Jon and Robb to trust their direwolves, but so far, no signs from the text that they hear me. 9 hours ago, bemused said: Jon has allies we can count on present at Castle Black : no doubt all the rangers - Big Liddle, Rory, Fulk the Flea, Tom Barleycorn, Luke of Longtown, Leathers, Jax and Emrick (all I can think of, at a quick glance), Othell and maybe all his builders except Alf, but including new recruit Horse .. and at least some stewards - Aaron and Satin (Jon's I think) and probably Ty ... Clydas, maybe at heart, though (I think) roped into sharing the contents of the pink letter. Add Flint and Norrey and their men. ... And I would count Mel and Devan (mentioned in Jon's audience with Selyse) as probable allies. But there are others... Nice analysis of Jon's allies, as mentioned above and including Morna (who I think has potential to be a very interesting character) and Tormunds young son. I would personally enjoy it very much if Dryn takes a huge bite out of somebody, and it would be nicely ironic if he did it in the process of setting Ghost free, who can then take some really serious bites out of a few more people. As previously mentioned, I am unsure about Clydas, and I find it hard to imagine that even a few rangers would not turn against Jon. After all, they are the front line and must be somewhat feeling like Jon sent them out to die. Other people I question are Fulk he Flea who is suspicious to me because he is with Mully; guilty by association, I guess though that is not really fair. We don't know that something was not done to Jon's sword or gloves. Satin seems so likable and trustworthy. Too likable and trustworthy? So does that make him suspicious, as well? I hope not, I rather like Satin. I hope that the conspirator's against Jon don't number many, but I think these people moving against the LC must feel like their numbers are big enough to face a stand off against the people loyal to Jon. After the assassination (failed, we hope), the conspirator's have to assume that there will be some backlash, so it would be smart to have more numbers in their camp than we believe. Unless they have Selyse's and her queens men in their camp. That I would believe. Selyse does not have the same warm and fuzzies for Jon as Stannis seems too! This is a very nice examination of who could be on Jon's side at the time of his assassination (attempt). We can't forget Wun Wun, either, who just might tear some heads of some knife wielding black brothers. I think after this attempt, and Jon survives (I agree that is more probable than death and resurrection at this time) that Jon will turn to Borroq for some advice and teaching. Jon needs to learn what he is, embrace it and learn to control it, and right now Borroq seems to be the only person who can teach him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Weirwoods Eyes Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 I have always thought that Borroq will be Jon's mentor in learning how to control his skinchanging ability more. And that he will only be injured. I agree with much of what you have said here and think you have pointed out some really good stuff. I've not got the time to write out a huge lengthy post right now. but I have quite a bit to say once I do have a bit more time. I have long liked your Vala theory and I recently ended up exploring the woods witches and their role when I was chatting via PM with @Jon's Queen Consort And I ended up coming up with a few ideas and conclusions. Namely that Woods witches are the Volva equivalent in story and way more significant north of the wall than south of it, with their significance dismissed by the Maesters, leading to a modern day dismissal of them in the general south of the wall. And that yes Morna will be significant in healing Jon, I think she's likely more advanced that Val. A Weirwood mask as opposed to a brooch of one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya_Stupid! Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 @St Daga Satin is super suspicious to me. Especially after we get that little tidbit about him putting a 'sweet scent' in his beard. Then he becomes a Perfumed Seneschal or (Perfumed Steward) a'la Quaithes warning for Dany. Which seems to be popping up all over the place in POVs, Tyrion had the Saelsori Quorhan 'The Stinky Steward', Dany has Reznak mo Reznak (or whatever the hell his name is) as hers. Then we have Satin with Jon and the OG perfumed seneschal Varys (which could technically count as Tyrions i guess? Or maybe he's Aegons?) in the case of both Varys and Reznak, they are definitely working to bring down the people they claim to serve. The ship was becalmed and then boarded by slavers. IMO this serves as a link to the potential betrayal by Satin. I personally think he may be a spy from Littlefinger, not positive yet, but that he came from a whorehouse in Gulltown adds to the feeling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 2 hours ago, St Daga said: <snip> As for Jon, I think you are spot on when you say that the prologue misdirects us to Jon's possible fate because we are feed that info in the very same book. We see a Warg/Skinchanger die and how he attempts to live on, and we apply that to Jon, the idea's actually serve as book ends to aDwD. I agree with you both re the misleading nature of the prologue. It's such a great chapter, I've lost count of how many times I've read it. And I also think that, on top of the info you've mentioned, it also serves to show us how skinchanging into humans work, but that's part of Bran's story. 2 hours ago, St Daga said: I think this is a great catch on Thorne. I know some people have the idea that Thorne might turn out to be an ally of Jon's, but I don't think that is possible. To much enmity between the two of them to repair. From the start, Thorne hated Jon, and it must stem back to Robert's Rebellion and his feelings about Ned. I'm one such! Well, I'm not positive it will happen but I think it could happen. I see Thorne as being much more of a Targ supporter than a Baratheon/Stark hater, if that makes sense. And eventually, when he learns Jon is Rhaegar's son... well, I think he might change his views and attitude towards Jon. I would actually like that, btw, but it's in no way an idea I'm married to. 2 hours ago, St Daga said: Other people I question are Fulk he Flea who is suspicious to me because he is with Mully; guilty by association, I guess though that is not really fair. We don't know that something was not done to Jon's sword or gloves. Satin seems so likable and trustworthy. Too likable and trustworthy? So does that make him suspicious, as well? I hope not, I rather like Satin. I don't think Satin is involved, I think Satin is loyal to Jon. That's part wishful thinking, because I really like him, but I also don't think there are any clues pointing to that. 2 hours ago, St Daga said: I hope that the conspirator's against Jon don't number many, but I think these people moving against the LC must feel like their numbers are big enough to face a stand off against the people loyal to Jon. After the assassination (failed, we hope), the conspirator's have to assume that there will be some backlash, so it would be smart to have more numbers in their camp than we believe. Unless they have Selyse's and her queens men in their camp. That I would believe. Selyse does not have the same warm and fuzzies for Jon as Stannis seems too! I don't think those against Jon are many, and definitely in the minority if you do a total head count. There are roughly 300 men in the Shieldhall and it's 5 wildlings for 1 crow, so that's what? 240 wildlings x 60 crows? Then there's all those who are still arriving or have just arrived: Morna and her crew? Iron Emmett and the spearwives? Plus all the brothers who weren't in the Shieldhall, but that can't be too many anyway; when ManceShirt is about to be executed, Jon notes how he has 200 men with him, "more than half of CB strength" or something to that effect. I've no idea how many Queen's Men are there with Selyse but I don't think it'd be enough to matter regardless of the side they took. 2 hours ago, St Daga said: This is a very nice examination of who could be on Jon's side at the time of his assassination (attempt). We can't forget Wun Wun, either, who just might tear some heads of some knife wielding black brothers. I think after this attempt, and Jon survives (I agree that is more probable than death and resurrection at this time) that Jon will turn to Borroq for some advice and teaching. Jon needs to learn what he is, embrace it and learn to control it, and right now Borroq seems to be the only person who can teach him. Yes, Wun Wun! Too bad Godry Farring is not there, I'd love to see Wun Wun give him the Patrek of King's Mountain treatment! 15 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said: @St Daga Satin is super suspicious to me. Especially after we get that little tidbit about him putting a 'sweet scent' in his beard. Then he becomes a Perfumed Seneschal or (Perfumed Steward) a'la Quaithes warning for Dany. Which seems to be popping up all over the place in POVs, Tyrion had the Saelsori Quorhan 'The Stinky Steward', Dany has Reznak mo Reznak (or whatever the hell his name is) as hers. Then we have Satin with Jon and the OG perfumed seneschal Varys (which could technically count as Tyrions i guess? Or maybe he's Aegons?) in the case of both Varys and Reznak, they are definitely working to bring down the people they claim to serve. The ship was becalmed and then boarded by slavers. IMO this serves as a link to the potential betrayal by Satin. I personally think he may be a spy from Littlefinger, not positive yet, but that he came from a whorehouse in Gulltown adds to the feeling. I think Satin is one of a few red herrings in this mess with the perfumed seneschal. I hope? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 46 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said: Satin is super suspicious to me. Especially after we get that little tidbit about him putting a 'sweet scent' in his beard. I personally think he may be a spy from Littlefinger, not positive yet, but that he came from a whorehouse in Gulltown adds to the feeling. Sweet smells do have some poor connotations in this story. Even in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness", many people think this means she and Jon will fall in love, but sweet does not indicate good things, so I am a doubter. I think that it sets Jon and Dany up as enemies, but that's just my take. If Satin is a spy of Littlefingers, which is a good thought, then I doubt he would be involved in this assassination attempt, unless he has arranged the whole thing. Cersei certainly planned to send someone to the wall to kill Jon, so maybe Littlefinger helped her set this up. I am going to have to give that idea some thought! It's very interesting. I do find Satin likable, though, so it will sting if he is working against Jon. 17 minutes ago, kissdbyfire said: I'm one such! Well, I'm not positive it will happen but I think it could happen. I see Thorne as being much more of a Targ supporter than a Baratheon/Stark hater, if that makes sense. And eventually, when he learns Jon is Rhaegar's son... well, I think he might change his views and attitude towards Jon. I would actually like that, btw, but it's in no way an idea I'm married to. Even if that was the case, would Jon ever trust him after how Thorne has behaved? I wouldn't. And I am not sure how Thorne would ever get confirmation of Rhaegar being Jon's father, if that is the case. I know many people have confirmed RLJ in their heads, but until GRRM confirms on the page, then I am not convinced that Jon is Rhaegar's son. Blasphemy, I know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 Random question that I would like to ask those here who have a good grasp on the Castle Black plotline. I know Jon assigned Pyp and Grenn to Eastwatch, but do we know for sure that they left and have not returned??? I always suspected the possibility of Pyp being the fourth knife in the back with him being a mummer, and Pyp does some weird knife/daggery stuff throughout the story, and by ADWD, Pyp is resentful of Jon and his Lord Commander "attitude". A knife in the back by what is supposed to be a good friend/brother would be a terrible thing for Jon to realize. Maybe in Jon's mind, worse then the mutiny itself??? Or not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kissdbyfire Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, The Fattest Leech said: Random question that I would like to ask those here who have a good grasp on the Castle Black plotline. I know Jon assigned Pyp and Grenn to Eastwatch, but do we know for sure that they left and have not returned??? I always suspected the possibility of Pyp being the fourth knife in the back with him being a mummer, and Pyp does some weird knife/daggery stuff throughout the story, and by ADWD, Pyp is resentful of Jon and his Lord Commander "attitude". A knife in the back by what is supposed to be a good friend/brother would be a terrible thing for Jon to realize. Maybe in Jon's mind, worse then the mutiny itself??? Or not. They haven't come back, or I should say, since this is Martin, that the reader is not aware of either one having returned to CB. I don't think Pyp is involved, but this could be just more wishful thinking! (Hope not) And totally agree with the bold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fattest Leech Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 1 minute ago, kissdbyfire said: They haven't come back, or I should say, since this is Martin, that the reader is not aware of either one having returned to CB. I don't think Pyp is involved, but this could be just more wishful thinking! (Hope not) And totally agree with the bold. Ok. I couldn't remember for sure. I tried to track it once, but during ADWD there is a lot of back and forth with Eastwatch and I lost my place. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingMance Posted January 30, 2017 Share Posted January 30, 2017 @bemused, this is awesome. Great analysis, and you've completely changed my mind about Borroq. One bit that does leave me with more questions than answers though: how could other greenseers or "wargs" have lived in Ghost before, when we saw him born in AGOT? The same question has bothered me with the ravens in BR's cave. Are we to believe that they are hundreds or thousands of years old, since they nest in the weirwoods and could draw life from them? Or are they normal aged birds, and remember the singers that came before them also because of the weirwood connection? Sort of (maybe) ties in to the dead weirwood at Raventree Hall, and how a huge murder of ravens come to perch every night. Dunno. Last thing on Ghost and why I don't believe he's had past bonds. As @St Daga pointed out, Robb was warned of the RW by Grey Wind, much as Shaggydog protects Rickon from whichever Walder "hurts" him during the Lord of the crossing game, and Nymeria mauling Jeffrey to protect Arya and Mycah. I personally think it's just a protective bond, and as Robb says, they sense things Again, excellent post, and I can't wait to see more contributions to this thread! @The Fattest Leech, y tu, Pypus?!? That would be pretty fitting, but Gods I hope not! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya_Stupid! Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 4 hours ago, St Daga said: Sweet smells do have some poor connotations in this story. Even in Dany's vision in the House of the Undying, "A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness", many people think this means she and Jon will fall in love, but sweet does not indicate good things, so I am a doubter. I think that it sets Jon and Dany up as enemies, but that's just my take. If Satin is a spy of Littlefingers, which is a good thought, then I doubt he would be involved in this assassination attempt, unless he has arranged the whole thing. Cersei certainly planned to send someone to the wall to kill Jon, so maybe Littlefinger helped her set this up. I am going to have to give that idea some thought! It's very interesting. I do find Satin likable, though, so it will sting if he is working against Jon. I completely agree with you about the HOTU vision, i really cannot see how Dany and Jon will become allies, let alone wed. By the time they meet i expect Dany to be in full paranoid delusional 'Fire and Blood' mode, and i just don't see Jon ever being down with someone like that. But thats just my opinion. i didn't mean to imply that i thought Satin was involved in this Bowen Marsh plot. I just believe he is there to keep watch over a potential threat to Littlefinger's plans for Sansa and the North by extention. Gather info, become close, ingratiate himself and see what this 'boy commander' does. We can be sure that if Miranda Royce has heard this news of Jon Snow bastard of Winterfell's promotion to LC, that Baelish would have heard as well. But, as you say, it could be an extention - or a first step, to the Cersei plot that never happened because her Kettleblack is still a captive of the faith. That makes sense as well, someone gets sent ahead first,and so can inform to the leader of this hundred men of Cerseis as to the LC's habits and movements day to day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 3 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: I always suspected the possibility of Pyp being the fourth knife in the back with him being a mummer, and Pyp does some weird knife/daggery stuff throughout the story, and by ADWD, Pyp is resentful of Jon and his Lord Commander "attitude". A knife in the back by what is supposed to be a good friend/brother would be a terrible thing for Jon to realize. Maybe in Jon's mind, worse then the mutiny itself??? I certainly hope not, but that would be the kind of thing that GRRM would do, to Jon and us, kick us when we are down. Pyp could be back at Castle Black and we just have not been told that. Jon is our POV, so if he doesn't know, then we don't know. It would be devastating for Jon to think one of his longest companions at the Wall drove a dagger into him. The question is, would Pyp do that do Jon? 20 minutes ago, Arya_Stupid! said: i didn't mean to imply that i thought Satin was involved in this Bowen Marsh plot. I just believe he is there to keep watch over a potential threat to Littlefinger's plans for Sansa and the North by extention. Gather info, become close, ingratiate himself and see what this 'boy commander' does. We can be sure that if Miranda Royce has heard this news of Jon Snow bastard of Winterfell's promotion to LC, that Baelish would have heard as well. But, as you say, it could be an extention - or a first step, to the Cersei plot that never happened because her Kettleblack is still a captive of the faith. That makes sense as well, someone gets sent ahead first,and so can inform to the leader of this hundred men of Cerseis as to the LC's habits and movements day to day. I did misunderstand what you meant about Satin but I understand now. The connection between Satin's past occupation and Littlefinger makes it very plausible that they could have some history. What that could entail, I have no idea. I am not sure how much of Cersei's plan that Littlefinger would try to help with, but he certainly isn't afraid to have several plots going on at once, so he could be using Satin for information all the while letting Cersei think that he has a Brother of the NIghts Watch in place to take Jon out. Yes, Miranda is getting information from some where, but I would be surprised if she and LIttlefinger were getting information from the same source. I wonder if Miranda's information is just normal talk about the wall that trickles through the seven kingdoms. Another thought is Edd Tollett, who is from the Vale and House Tollett is supposed to be sworn to House Royce of Runestone. Not the same house that Miranda is from but information could pass between the two. I don't mean to imply that Dolorous Edd is a spy, but he does like to talk and could be a source of information for his home region.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Makk Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 I wasn't aware anyone actually thought Borroq was an enemy or that Ghost was actually agitated by his boar in the final Jon chapter. I think the parallels to Grey Wind and Robb were far too obvious, Jon simply didn't see it for what it was anymore than Robb did. Mully has to have had something to do with it imo although no idea what. The idea that Aliser Thorne is back and involved is intriguing, very speculative but plausible and interesting. I wonder if he murdered the rangers he was with in their sleep? I doubt Pyp is involved, even if he is miffed that Jon has grown a bit distant, it is difficult to see him getting that irate about it, nor see how Bowen Marsh and co trust him enough to involve him in this plot. I do think Jon is dead and requires a resurrection. I think there are too many hints (man then wolf then man again, Varamyr description of second life, nightswatch vows, already having brought resurrection into the story for little purpose so far) plus the way it was written is pretty conclusive to me. In some ways I hope he isn't dead as I don't want his character to change or there be some cost involved. I don't think the perfumed seneschal warning applies to Jon. I think the free folk have come to respect and admire Jon and I don't believe the conspirators have any chance of seizing control of Castle Black, they are simply outnumbered far too heavily. Not sure what is going to happen next though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curled Finger Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 Ah bemused...AWESOME! You were at one time the only other person on earth who believed Jon wasn't dead from his wounds. I hope your clear, cited and well written argument is able to open some minds to the possibility. Jon will need healing and may, as a previous poster suggested, simply warg off into Ghost as a matter of reflex, unconsciously. This absence of consciousness will leave Jon's body and mind open to many of the things that happened with Bran. Wasn't there a dream were a tree attempted to tell Jon to open his 3rd eye? So what if, as I'm coming to suspect, the Wildlings have their own brand of 1st Men magic--the Red, Warg, Marsh and Barrow King magics? What if these Magnars are as powerful as the Targs were as gods among their people? We know the skinchanging ability seems more prevalent beyond the Wall and the land itself is a magical place. Why the hell wouldn't Morna or Val or Mother Mole be as capable a healer as any maester? Who will be the voice Jon hears while he recovers? Brans? Bloodraven's? Borroq's? I'm not 100% sold on a previous spirit in Ghost, but Ghost takes off on his own frequently--could he have eaten something containing the spirit of someone? Could Ghost simply be "open" to a visit from someone other than Jon, like Bran or Bloodraven by virtue of being in the "throes" of magic at the Wall? I've always thought the idea of Mel being the one to save Jon was sort of creepy because she's sort of creepy. I would think this child of the North would require regional magic healing to maintain a semblance of himself--if that makes any sense? bemused, this idea about so many potential allies at Jon's disposal is hopeful. We expect to be kicked by GRRM, but you've kindled a real hope in me for a positive outcome at Castle Black. You shared a short list of people you expected to be in attendance at the shield hall meeting a long time ago with me. I've kept this tucked away and examined it from time to time. Your comparison of some of the Wildling's greetings (?) to Jon as they came to Castle Black to oaths sworn to lords was really nice. Not a thing I'd noticed on my own. I dread the idea of a real friend of Jon's being part of the conspiracy, but emotions are high and Jon's had a most unusual leadership of the Nights Watch. I hope to learn much more about the Wildlings and why they stayed beyond the wall for so long and how they actually got there in the first place. It will be a very different sort of Nights Watch when Wildlings are manning the Wall. This is great stuff, bemused. The sort of thing I will be able to come back to again and again. Thank you for sharing this brilliant piece of detective work with all of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bemused Posted January 31, 2017 Author Share Posted January 31, 2017 17 hours ago, The Fattest Leech said: Are you thinking that a long dead greenseer king is in Ghost, and that is who is helping guide Ghost to Jon? Greenseer, yes.. greenseer king.. m-m-m-aybe ... it wouldn't be out of the question for George to have it cut both ways, referring to Jon and to Ghost's ghost. 11 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: I think Satin is one of a few red herrings in this mess with the perfumed seneschal. I hope? 6 hours ago, Arya_Stupid! said: i didn't mean to imply that i thought Satin was involved in this Bowen Marsh plot. I just believe he is there to keep watch over a potential threat to Littlefinger's plans for Sansa and the North by extention. Gather info, become close, ingratiate himself and see what this 'boy commander' does. My bet is that Satin is an ally..I'm thinking along the lines of @The Fattest Leech about George moving characters to Jon just when they're needed. At the same time, in spite of the apparent "whore" connection between him and Littlefinger and in spite of Lyn Corbray's predelictions (or maybe because of them) I sort of feel he may have been in Gulltown to assess what they were up to.. This is all because I think Satin may actually be a Hightower bastard, and not a whore at all.. I humbly offer the following.. It's my thread, but incognito..(and if you want to read it, please scroll down to post #4 for the real OP ...I somehow managed to open two identical threads, and when I asked Mods to amalgamate the two, they posted the responses from the second thread at the top) (maybe it's time I updated this as well....) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/120625-a-foppish-youth-in-soiled-satin/ I have this feeling that representatives of all the oldest bloodlines, or magical bloodlines are moving to come together at the wall... 10 hours ago, kissdbyfire said: I don't think Pyp is involved, but this could be just more wishful thinking! (Hope not) I don't think Pyp and Grenn would have stayed resentful. Time and again, we see Jon meet with the people he's sending elsewhere and explain their postings. It's a pattern. Slynt thinks his is beneath him, Thorne assumes Jon wants to kill him on the ranging.. Giant is flattered, Emmett and Edd delighted (lucky boys), and the only thing marring Sam's, is his fear of his father. We don't see a meeting with Pyp and Grenn, but I'm sure there must have been one, and I doubt if Jon would only have wanted to discourage familiarity, but think of some worthy position they could fill as well. We just don't know what that was yet. @Curled Finger HI, nice to see you.. (and thanks!) Too tired to post more tonight... I'll be back, as the saying goes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St Daga Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 6 hours ago, bemused said: This is all because I think Satin may actually be a Hightower bastard, and not a whore at all.. I humbly offer the following.. It's my thread, but incognito..(and if you want to read it, please scroll down to post #4 for the real OP ...I somehow managed to open two identical threads, and when I asked Mods to amalgamate the two, they posted the responses from the second thread at the top) (maybe it's time I updated this as well....) http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/120625-a-foppish-youth-in-soiled-satin/ I have this feeling that representatives of all the oldest bloodlines, or magical bloodlines are moving to come together at the wall... I read your post on Satin possible link to Oldtown. Thanks for the link. You cite a lot of interesting things, more things that I have focused on with Satin. Satin is an interesting character. For me, he is easy to remember while mixed into play with a lot of names and personalities at the wall. I find Satin rather likable, and I would like for him to be an ally to Jon. But it seems like something is going on with him, some little mystery or key that we have not been given. Whether he turns out to be friend or foe, we will have to wait for more books to find out. My hope is that he is a friend to Jon. I am pretty much always prepared to be disappointed by my hopes in the actual text! Thanks a whole lot, GRRM, for making me feel this way. As for the idea of the oldest blood lines moving toward the wall, it seems it is probable, although I am not sure the people themselves might me aware of their possible duty, yet. I think the words of some of these houses might be as important as the Nights Watch vow, when they all get tacked together. House Hightower's words are "We light the way", and that seems like it could be very important. I keep meaning to sit down and write up something about some of the words of houses (I just have endless supply of sticky notes with ideas) that might mean "more" than we think, and Hightower is one of those houses. I also think House Tollett-"When all is darkest", (just in the wiki though, so I can barely trust it) and House Royce of Runestone -"We Remember". Those are just a few people who have people at the wall (tinfoil hat on but maybe that is why the Others seemed to hunt down Ser Waymar Royce in the aGoT prologue), then if Satin is a Hightower descendant, it could matter to the end game. Interestingly enough, House Hightower and Royce have Valyrian steel swords in their families, though I think Royce's Lady Forlorn is lost. I am not sure about house Tollett. Another family with interesting words is House Karstark-"the Sun of Winter". Of course, House Stark-"Winter is Coming" is important! These families seem to be a mix of First Men and Andal blood. I need to look into the words of some Dornish houses. Interstingly enough, House Dayne does not have words listed anywhere, text or wiki, and I think the lack of that is very interesting! Another one off the top of my head is House Tyrell-"Growing Strong", seems so simple and meaningless, but our attention is brought to it several times in the text, so ... I think it would be very bad ass if these houses combined their words to pull off some interesting magic when spoken together, kind of like the Nights Watch oath may do (besides just opening the Black Gate at the Nightfort). Sorry about the last little bit, I am certainly not trying to derail your post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya_Stupid! Posted January 31, 2017 Share Posted January 31, 2017 17 hours ago, St Daga said: I did misunderstand what you meant about Satin but I understand now. The connection between Satin's past occupation and Littlefinger makes it very plausible that they could have some history. What that could entail, I have no idea. I am not sure how much of Cersei's plan that Littlefinger would try to help with, but he certainly isn't afraid to have several plots going on at once, so he could be using Satin for information all the while letting Cersei think that he has a Brother of the NIghts Watch in place to take Jon out. Yes, Miranda is getting information from some where, but I would be surprised if she and LIttlefinger were getting information from the same source. I wonder if Miranda's information is just normal talk about the wall that trickles through the seven kingdoms. Another thought is Edd Tollett, who is from the Vale and House Tollett is supposed to be sworn to House Royce of Runestone. Not the same house that Miranda is from but information could pass between the two. I don't mean to imply that Dolorous Edd is a spy, but he does like to talk and could be a source of information for his home region.. Edd Tollett is a connection i thought a little about as well, when i heard his family name mentioned in the Vale. It is interesting, but you're right, he could have simply sent a letter to his family saying 'yup, new boy commander, we'll probably all be dead before winter comes. Love you' in actuality i think Edd's letter home would be hilarious to read. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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