Jon's Buddy Borroq , Ghost - and Some Overlooked Allies

[Arya_Stupid!]

11 hours ago, bemused said:

My bet is that Satin is an ally..I'm thinking along the lines of @The Fattest Leech about George moving characters to Jon just when they're needed. At the same time, in spite of the apparent "whore" connection between him and Littlefinger and in spite of Lyn Corbray's predelictions (or maybe because of them) I sort of feel  he may have been in Gulltown to assess what they were up to..

This is all because I think Satin may actually be a Hightower bastard, and not a whore at all.. I humbly offer the following.. It's my thread, but incognito..(and if you want to read it, please scroll down to post #4 for the real OP ...I somehow managed to open two identical threads, and when I asked Mods to amalgamate the two, they posted the responses from the second thread at the top)  (maybe it's time I updated this as well....)

http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php?/topic/120625-a-foppish-youth-in-soiled-satin/

I have this feeling that representatives of all the oldest bloodlines, or magical bloodlines are moving to come together at the wall...

I had never heard of this idea @bemused. The idea that scions from all the old houses are migrating north is an interesting one. We know Aemon sent letters (many letters) to all the great houses asking for aid, this could be the result, or part of it.

Thanks for the link, i shall go educate myself now.

[St Daga]

1 hour ago, Arya_Stupid! said:

Edd Tollett is a connection i thought a little about as well, when i heard his family name mentioned in the Vale. It is interesting, but you're right, he could have simply sent a letter to his family saying 'yup, new boy commander, we'll probably all be dead before winter comes. Love you'

in actuality i think Edd's letter home would be hilarious to read.

Yes, pretty much everything out of Edd's mouth is comedy!  He is one of my favorites!

[bemused]

On 1/30/2017 at 3:59 PM, KingMance said:

One bit that does leave me with more questions than answers though: how could other greenseers or "wargs" have lived in Ghost before, when we saw him born in AGOT? The same question has bothered me with the ravens in BR's cave. Are we to believe that they are hundreds or thousands of years old, since they nest in the weirwoods and could draw life from them? Or are they normal aged birds, and remember the singers that came before them also because of the weirwood connection? Sort of (maybe) ties in to the dead weirwood at Raventree Hall, and how a huge murder of ravens come to perch every night. Dunno.

I suppose this all starts with the question of how Mama Direwolf came to be where she would be found by the Starks, when no direwolf had been seen south of the wall in 200 yrs... And I suppose most people would say Bloodraven had a hand in it (I suppose I say or would have said so,too.).. But when I got to thinking about it, I realised that might not be the only possibility.. He may have been one of two greenseers involved, or the task might have been wholly delegated to another greenseer ... (I'm trying to put my thoughts in some orderly fashion - I hope I succeed ... )

For what sent me down this track, we have to skip ahead (past ACoK) to ADWD, Jon I, which opens with Jon's wolf dream 2 ... I'll hide it here to save space... (sigh! the whole rest of the post got hidden..read on)

 

 

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees. Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!”
His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face.  

[/spoiler]

We know the talking moon is / becomes Mormont's raven in the waking world.. and we know/surmise that "Raven" is inhabited at least some of the time by Bloodraven.. So here we have moon/raven/Bloodraven and Ghost/Jon pulling in opposite directions... One side wants Jon to wake up, the other wants the dream to continue. 
Ghost/Jon's attitude is easily understandable, given that Jon and Ghost both miss their siblings. The problem is that Ghost is sensing much more than has been possible before, judging by Jon's ACoK dream  ... I can't see how that information can come to him , unless it's being visually shared through the weirwoods. It seems he can actually see the scenes of Shaggy and Nymeria and he senses Summer is north of the Wall.

In the earlier dream from ACoK... 

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.
 

In its totality, this dream has a whole other set of problems, but set those aside for now ... here,  the most that can be sensed is that the wolf siblings are alive, somewhere. Probably, this is as far as a wolf can normally sense. I think we're meant to question what's going on in the later dream.

Going back to the later dream, I think Moon/raven/Bloodraven urgently wants Jon to wake up, because too much may be about to be revealed, too soon. Jon might be distracted from what he needs to do as LC to save the NW and the integrity of the Wall... For the same reasons, Coldhands and Bran made Sam promise to keep their secret from Jon ,for the time being (In that case, it was very important that he not try to "rescue" Bran).
So, any sharing from the weirnet would not be coming through Bloodraven, therefore, there must be another source.

It occurs to me that although the weirnet is a shared continuum.. the greenseers were once individuals and when there's something it/they want to achieve, there very well could be a difference of opinion over how or when to execute the fine details.

Now let's go back to Mama Direwolf and wandering baby Ghost. Unlike a skinchanger in his second life, a greenseer who was guiding the mother could move from her awareness (as she was dying) to the pup being born, get his eyes open prematurely and get him to crawl away..

This much could easily be done by Bloodraven alone, but I've come to think that considering how vital Jon will be, how dangerous his path will be and the times that Ghost will be responsible for crucial information coming to light, it would make more sense for any guiding influence to be with him constantly, rather than hopping in and out.. and interfere less with his connection to Jon. It bothers me somehow to think of another skinchanger, or some greenseer acting as one, coming in and basically hijacking Ghost from time to time ... even if it was Bran or Bloodraven.- But some awareness/intelligence that has always been part of Ghost is less troubling to me. Jon is just bonding with all that Ghost is.

Even Ghost's silence can be taken as a sign of this - howling is natural for a wolf, but not for a man or a CoTF/singer.

I'm going to come back with some thought on Ghost and the dream in ACOK (I just lost a lengthy post on another thread, so I thought I'd better get at least this much up.)

 

[Lord Wraith]

On 1/31/2017 at 11:08 AM, St Daga said:

I read your post on Satin possible link to Oldtown. Thanks for the link. You cite a lot of interesting things, more things that I have focused on with Satin. Satin is an interesting character. For me, he is easy to remember while mixed into play with a lot of names and personalities at the wall. I find Satin rather likable, and I would like for him to be an ally to Jon. But it seems like something is going on with him, some little mystery or key that we have not been given. Whether he turns out to be friend or foe, we will have to wait for more books to find out.

My hope is that he is a friend to Jon. I am pretty much always prepared to be disappointed by my hopes in the actual text! Thanks a whole lot, GRRM, for making me feel this way.

As for the idea of the oldest blood lines moving toward the wall, it seems it is probable, although I am not sure the people themselves might me aware of their possible duty, yet. I think the words of some of these houses might be as important as the Nights Watch vow, when they all get tacked together. House Hightower's words are "We light the way", and that seems like it could be very important. I keep meaning to sit down and write up something about some of the words of houses (I just have endless supply of sticky notes with ideas) that might mean "more" than we think, and Hightower is one of those houses. I also think House Tollett-"When all is darkest", (just in the wiki though, so I can barely trust it) and House Royce of Runestone -"We Remember". Those are just a few people who have people at the wall (tinfoil hat on but maybe that is why the Others seemed to hunt down Ser Waymar Royce in the aGoT prologue), then if Satin is a Hightower descendant, it could matter to the end game. Interestingly enough, House Hightower and Royce have Valyrian steel swords in their families, though I think Royce's Lady Forlorn is lost. I am not sure about house Tollett. Another family with interesting words is House Karstark-"the Sun of Winter". Of course, House Stark-"Winter is Coming" is important! These families seem to be a mix of First Men and Andal blood. I need to look into the words of some Dornish houses. Interstingly enough, House Dayne does not have words listed anywhere, text or wiki, and I think the lack of that is very interesting! Another one off the top of my head is House Tyrell-"Growing Strong", seems so simple and meaningless, but our attention is brought to it several times in the text, so ...

I think it would be very bad ass if these houses combined their words to pull off some interesting magic when spoken together, kind of like the Nights Watch oath may do (besides just opening the Black Gate at the Nightfort). Sorry about the last little bit, I am certainly not trying to derail your post.

Satin is from Oldtown but interesting was picked up in Gulltown. Makes you wonder if he was one of Lyn Corbray's boys provided by Baelish. Or why was a Oldtown catamite doing in a prison near Gulltown...

1 hour ago, bemused said:

I suppose this all starts with the question of how Mama Direwolf came to be where she would be found by the Starks, when no direwolf had been seen south of the wall in 200 yrs... And I suppose most people would say Bloodraven had a hand in it (I suppose I say or would have said so,too.).. But when I got to thinking about it, I realised that might not be the only possibility.. He may have been one of two greenseers involved, or the task might have been wholly delegated to another greenseer ... (I'm trying to put my thoughts in some orderly fashion - I hope I succeed ... )

For what sent me down this track, we have to skip ahead (past ACoK) to ADWD, Jon I, which opens with Jon's wolf dream 2 ... I'll hide it here to save space... (sigh! the whole rest of the post got hidden..read on)

  Reveal hidden contents

 

The white wolf raced through a black wood, beneath a pale cliff as tall as the sky. The moon ran with him, slipping through a tangle of bare branches overhead, across the starry sky.

“Snow,” the moon murmured. The wolf made no answer. Snow crunched beneath his paws. The wind sighed through the trees. Far off, he could hear his packmates calling to him, like to like. They were hunting too. A wild rain lashed down upon his black brother as he tore at the flesh of an enormous goat, washing the blood from his side where the goat’s long horn had raked him. In another place, his little sister lifted her head to sing to the moon, and a hundred small grey cousins broke off their hunt to sing with her. The hills were warmer where they were, and full of food. Many a night his sister’s pack gorged on the flesh of sheep and cows and horses, the prey of men, and sometimes even on the flesh of man himself.

“Snow,” the moon called down again, cackling. The white wolf padded along the man trail beneath the icy cliff. The taste of blood was on his tongue, and his ears rang to the song of the hundred cousins. Once they had been six, five whimpering blind in the snow beside their dead mother, sucking cool milk from her hard dead nipples whilst he crawled off alone. Four remained … and one the white wolf could no longer sense.

“Snow,” the moon insisted.

The white wolf ran from it, racing toward the cave of night where the sun had hidden, his breath frosting in the air. On starless nights the great cliff was as black as stone, a darkness towering high above the wide world, but when the moon came out it shimmered pale and icy as a frozen stream. The wolf’s pelt was thick and shaggy, but when the wind blew along the ice no fur could keep the chill out. On the other side the wind was colder still, the wolf sensed. That was where his brother was, the grey brother who smelled of summer.

“Snow.” An icicle tumbled from a branch. The white wolf turned and bared his teeth. “Snow!”
His fur rose bristling, as the woods dissolved around him. “Snow, snow, snow!” He heard the beat of wings. Through the gloom a raven flew.

It landed on Jon Snow’s chest with a thump and a scrabbling of claws. “SNOW!” it screamed into his face.  

[/spoiler]

We know the talking moon is / becomes Mormont's raven in the waking world.. and we know/surmise that "Raven" is inhabited at least some of the time by Bloodraven.. So here we have moon/raven/Bloodraven and Ghost/Jon pulling in opposite directions... One side wants Jon to wake up, the other wants the dream to continue. 
Ghost/Jon's attitude is easily understandable, given that Jon and Ghost both miss their siblings. The problem is that Ghost is sensing much more than has been possible before, judging by Jon's ACoK dream  ... I can't see how that information can come to him , unless it's being visually shared through the weirwoods. It seems he can actually see the scenes of Shaggy and Nymeria and he senses Summer is north of the Wall.

In the earlier dream from ACoK... 

There were five of them when there should have been six, and they were scattered, each apart from the others. He felt a deep ache of emptiness, a sense of incompleteness. The forest was vast and cold, and they were so small, so lost. His brothers were out there somewhere, and his sister, but he had lost their scent. He sat on his haunches and lifted his head to the darkening sky, and his cry echoed through the forest, a long lonely mournful sound. As it died away, he pricked up his ears, listening for an answer, but the only sound was the sigh of blowing snow.
 

In its totality, this dream has a whole other set of problems, but set those aside for now ... here,  the most that can be sensed is that the wolf siblings are alive, somewhere. Probably, this is as far as a wolf can normally sense. I think we're meant to question what's going on in the later dream.

Going back to the later dream, I think Moon/raven/Bloodraven urgently wants Jon to wake up, because too much may be about to be revealed, too soon. Jon might be distracted from what he needs to do as LC to save the NW and the integrity of the Wall... For the same reasons, Coldhands and Bran made Sam promise to keep their secret from Jon ,for the time being (In that case, it was very important that he not try to "rescue" Bran).
So, any sharing from the weirnet would not be coming through Bloodraven, therefore, there must be another source.

It occurs to me that although the weirnet is a shared continuum.. the greenseers were once individuals and when there's something it/they want to achieve, there very well could be a difference of opinion over how or when to execute the fine details.

Now let's go back to Mama Direwolf and wandering baby Ghost. Unlike a skinchanger in his second life, a greenseer who was guiding the mother could move from her awareness (as she was dying) to the pup being born, get his eyes open prematurely and get him to crawl away..

This much could easily be done by Bloodraven alone, but I've come to think that considering how vital Jon will be, how dangerous his path will be and the times that Ghost will be responsible for crucial information coming to light, it would make more sense for any guiding influence to be with him constantly, rather than hopping in and out.. and interfere less with his connection to Jon. It bothers me somehow to think of another skinchanger, or some greenseer acting as one, coming in and basically hijacking Ghost from time to time ... even if it was Bran or Bloodraven.- But some awareness/intelligence that has always been part of Ghost is less troubling to me. Jon is just bonding with all that Ghost is.

Even Ghost's silence can be taken as a sign of this - howling is natural for a wolf, but not for a man or a CoTF/singer.

I'm going to come back with some thought on Ghost and the dream in ACOK (I just lost a lengthy post on another thread, so I thought I'd better get at least this much up.)

 

A newer Youtuber, named An American Thinks has a theory on how the Direwolf got South of the Wall. It is part of his video on the Horn of Joramun.  The relevant info is at about 17 minutes in but the whole think is interesting and worth a watch. The Direwolf used Gorne's Way to bypass the Wall. As far as who sent the Direwolves... probably Bloodraven. 

[KingMance]

Thanks @bemused, that did help clear that up a bit. I can get on board with Bloodraven manipulating dreams. I think that's what's going on with maester Aemon during his voyage to Oldtown, either via BR or Marwyn. 

[Leo of House Cartel]

Great job @bemused, you've given many great hope for Jon! Your points about Borroqq and Morna were very enlightening. Borroq always seemed badass. A part of a mysterious collection of skinchangers who meet in the woods, he could be well poised to teach young Lord Snow more about his gifts. The use of "brother" is particularly eye catching, as well as the perdator-prey relationship between boars and wolves.

What could be the true function of Mornas "White Mask"? Your theory on her being a Vala seems solid enough, so could this mask perhaps act as a "third eye enhancer" in a similiar way to Weirwood stump Jaime sleeps against? And is this a practice once common amongst Free Folk/First Men mystics? The mask could be a usefull tool for whoever takes part in The Battle For Dawn.

I wonder the level of contol Borroq emitted over his gifts by the time Lump attended the Gathering of Skinchangers, and how much they have grown since then. Could he be more powerful than Varamyr? That big Westerosi Enteledont of his certainly appears to toe the proverbial line so I do wonder...

[DarkSister1001]

On ‎1‎/‎30‎/‎2017 at 0:06 AM, bemused said:

Jon's Buddy Borroq, Ghost - and Some Overlooked Allies

Excellent OP!  As always!

Others have mentioned how Grey Wind reacted to the Frey's before the RW.  I'd like to add to the wolf parallel and possible Dryn assistance...

Quote

And he'll have it, as soon as I grow a new hand, thought Jaime. "We all have expectations," he said mildly. "Tell me, is Ser Raynald Westerling amongst these captives?"

"The knight of seashells?" Edwyn sneered. "You'll find that one feeding the fish at the bottom of the Green Fork."

"He was in the yard when our men came to put the direwolf down," said Walder Rivers. "Whalen demanded his sword and he gave it over meek enough, but when the crossbowmen began feathering the wolf he seized Whalen's axe and cut the monster loose of the net they'd thrown over him. Whalen says he took a quarrel in his shoulder and another in the gut, but still managed to reach the wallwalk and throw himself into the river."

"He left a trail of blood on the steps," said Edwyn.

AFfC - Jaime VII