UK Politics: Trumpy Cat Trumpy Cat Where Have You Been?

[Werthead]

Lots of surprise that a Conservative minister put himself in possible harm's way to help the policeman. Aside from the slightly farcical suggestion that someone's political leanings might make them more or less brave in physical confrontations, it is the work of seconds to discover that Tobias Ellwood is a former Royal Green Jacket and was trained in combat and high-danger situations. Twenty years in Westminster clearly didn't dull those instincts.

[HexMachina]

1 hour ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Literally the only way to stop this sort of thing is to stop vehicular access to pavements or pedestrianized areas. We've seen that done in most areas round shopping centers and airports etc after Glasgow airport got attacked but you cannot realistically fence off every pavement.

Just look a Oxford Street, how the hell would you stop this happening there given the length of the street?

Cars are everywhere and access to them is easy. Access to build up areas with lots of soft targets is even easier. Not easy to stop this sort of thing.

Well there talks about pedestrianising Oxford Street: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-36791485

[Which Tyler]

Apparently the whole of London was shut down yesterday, who knew?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/39365449/people-mock-fox-news-claim-that-terror-attack-shut-down-city

Well, pretty much no-one in London knew, but it was on Fox news, so I'd guess that Trump knows it for a fact

[Chaircat Meow]

The police have now formally identified the killer as Khalid Masood. Oddly, he was 52 years old. He had prior criminal convictions for violent behaviour. He was once investigated for violent extremism but was thought to be a peripheral figure.

[Chaldanya]

37 minutes ago, Which Tyler said:

Apparently the whole of London was shut down yesterday, who knew?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/39365449/people-mock-fox-news-claim-that-terror-attack-shut-down-city

Well, pretty much no-one in London knew, but it was on Fox news, so I'd guess that Trump knows it for a fact

Considering all I knew about it was being on the Jubilee Line and told that Westminster Station was closed because of a police investigation.  I whizzed merrily on my way to Marylebone and got on the train home. THEN got a phone call from himself asking if I was OK and managed to get away alright...

[Which Tyler]

7 minutes ago, Chaldanya said:

Considering all I knew about it was being on the Jubilee Line and told that Westminster Station was closed because of a police investigation.  I whizzed merrily on my way to Marylebone and got on the train home. THEN got a phone call from himself asking if I was OK and managed to get away alright...

Firstly, glad you're safe (and that the casualty count is so low in general)

I was just double-checking a couple of other claims about us made on Faux News - I thought this might have been the same "Terrorism Expert" who claimed that Birmingham was under Sharia Law; or that there were no-go areas in parts of London and Birmingham where the police don't tread for fear of attack.

It isn't though; the first was a guy called Steve Emerson, and the second... erm... I'm not quite sure how to put this... he's... now the President of the United States of America...

[The BlackBear]

4 hours ago, Chaircat Meow said:

The police have now formally identified the killer as Khalid Masood. Oddly, he was 52 years old. He had prior criminal convictions for violent behaviour. He was once investigated for violent extremism but was thought to be a peripheral figure.

The problem is he probably was. These type of, small scale, low planning attacks can be done by literally anyone.

[Chaircat Meow]

A 75 year old man, injured in the attack, has now died.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

13 hours ago, The BlackBear said:

The problem is he probably was. These type of, small scale, low planning attacks can be done by literally anyone.

I'm really happy that this hasn't lead to some sort of huge anti muslim over reaction. That he just appears to be a lone nutter I guess helps. But then many of these terrorists do just appear to be those who are at the most extreme fringes of their groups, often with similar profiles. Almost always do they seem to have a criminal past, are quite troubled and have a history of being very vocal of their beliefs. 

[Lordsteve666]

Yeah something that pissed me off a little about a BBC interview I saw with a minister was the suggestion that the intelligence services have failed because he was looked at back in 2003, that's 11 years ago for crying out loud?!?

Do the press really expect the police and MI5 to watch someone constantly for more than a decade along with all the other 3000 odd people who are being covered too? There's only so much they can do.  

[mormont]

The natural reaction after an incident like this is to look at what could have been done to prevent it. The answer 'nothing much' isn't one people want to hear. That's disturbing. That suggests it could happen again, and this time it could happen to you or someone you care about. (It's even more disturbing if it already did happen to you or someone you care about.)

So people will look for failings and who's to blame, I'm afraid, even if it's not very reasonable. It's human nature.

[Lordsteve666]

Yeah it's pretty sad really. I work with a few people who as it was u folding on tv were ranting about immigrants and "Johny Foreigner" like they were a pair of Daily Mail reading UKIP spokespeople. Utterly ridiculous given that they knew literally nothing and that the attacker was born here as well. 

The press doesn't help this attitude though because they hype up this impression that the system failed and that there's an army of IS soldiers ready to beat down your door and murder you. You expect it from politicians but they've been pretty restrained thus far and I think anyone with any sense sees that this sort of attack is nigh on impossible to stop or even predict. Logical and rational thinking is driven aside by a media intent on making the system look broken and hype things up. 

I dontbthink there were any failings here. The attack was stopped almost as soon as it entered a secured area and the casualty numbers are thankfully low. Also the fact they've stopped multiple attacks this decade means the tactics used are working. This is because our security systems by and large work in this country.  

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

39 minutes ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Yeah it's pretty sad really. I work with a few people who as it was u folding on tv were ranting about immigrants and "Johny Foreigner" like they were a pair of Daily Mail reading UKIP spokespeople. Utterly ridiculous given that they knew literally nothing and that the attacker was born here as well. 

The press doesn't help this attitude though because they hype up this impression that the system failed and that there's an army of IS soldiers ready to beat down your door and murder you. You expect it from politicians but they've been pretty restrained thus far and I think anyone with any sense sees that this sort of attack is nigh on impossible to stop or even predict. Logical and rational thinking is driven aside by a media intent on making the system look broken and hype things up. 

I dontbthink there were any failings here. The attack was stopped almost as soon as it entered a secured area and the casualty numbers are thankfully low. Also the fact they've stopped multiple attacks this decade means the tactics used are working. This is because our security systems by and large work in this country.  

Maybe its just my media viewing habits, but I'm not seeing very much of this 'johnny foreigner' scapegoating, or much islam panic. Certainly not in comparison to previous attacks, even in other countries. I would have expected far more vitriol and shouting about immigration. Might check out Daily Mail, see what they are up to. 

I guess we all want to feel safe, so we all ask questions about how to stop these attacks. The answer that 'you can't' doesn't seem good enough because we just want to go back to a level of secureness that we felt pre-9/11.

[ljkeane]

Yeah, by far the most common reaction, actually pretty much the only reaction I've seen from people I know, seems to be some variation of the 'keep calm and carry on' stuff. 

As for pre 9/11 levels of feeling secure. I don't know, that seems like more of an American than a British thing. The IRA, with significantly more capabilities than current terrorist groups, was a threat up until the mid nineties and after that there was always some concerns about splinter groups or the peace process breaking down.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

8 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

Yeah, by far the most common reaction, actually pretty much the only reaction I've seen from people I know, seems to be some variation of the 'keep calm and carry on' stuff. 

As for pre 9/11 levels of feeling secure. I don't know, that seems like more of an American than a British thing. The IRA, with significantly more capabilities than current terrorist groups, was a threat up until the mid nineties and after that there was always some concerns about splinter groups or the peace process breaking down.

I think the IRA stuff will always be different to islamic terrorism in peoples minds. In comparison the IRA appeared relatively logical, they had an end goal that was based on real world objectives. You could negotiate with them, you could understand what they wanted. They weren't hugely different to you or I. 

Islamic terrorism feels different. It doesn't make sense to many people, its not like you can argue a case for it on a logical level. Its based on a level of religious devotion that nobody in their right mind could understand. 

I know there was a level of worry about the IRA when I was growing up, but it really didn't feel anything like the public reaction to what is happening these days. 

[Which Tyler]

1 hour ago, Lordsteve666 said:

Yeah it's pretty sad really. I work with a few people who as it was u folding on tv were ranting about immigrants and "Johny Foreigner" like they were a pair of Daily Mail reading UKIP spokespeople. Utterly ridiculous given that they knew literally nothing and that the attacker was born here as well. 

The press doesn't help this attitude though because they hype up this impression that the system failed and that there's an army of IS soldiers ready to beat down your door and murder you. You expect it from politicians but they've been pretty restrained thus far and I think anyone with any sense sees that this sort of attack is nigh on impossible to stop or even predict. Logical and rational thinking is driven aside by a media intent on making the system look broken and hype things up. 

I dontbthink there were any failings here. The attack was stopped almost as soon as it entered a secured area and the casualty numbers are thankfully low. Also the fact they've stopped multiple attacks this decade means the tactics used are working. This is because our security systems by and large work in this country.  

My French wife-ish was told by her boss that it was the kids' own fault, and if they don't like it they should have stayed in their own country.
Yes, he voted for Brexit, even though he's an immigrant himself (40-odd years, from India). He also thinks the Trump is great, and encourages Ali to vote for LePen.

I can't even begin to understand wtf he was thinking/meaning; but he's not going to be her boss for much longer; though Ali still decided to give 2 weeks notice (I'd have walked out there and then personally).

 

 

On the IRA comparison, there's also a whole generation who've grown up only knowing the IRA from old-folks' reference - I doubt it's reached the history books yet on this side of the Irish Sea.

Of course, the generation who've never experienced The Troubles* are also the most virulent on social media; and "they" seem to react less with each event as it becomes comparatively normalised; when you get to event like London with thankfully few casualties; there's a lot more mature reflection and reaction to say Nice with a much larger death toll and being the first attack of its kind.

 

 

* How archetypically British can you get with the understatement?

[mormont]

As tempting as it may be to retrospectively play down the IRA threat, I remember it very well. Many of us grew up not knowing what Gerry Adams even sounded like because it was illegal for news programs to broadcast his voice. His words were read out by actors. Does that sound as if the situation was seen in 'logical' terms, that the IRA were seen as not 'hugely different to you or I'? IRA terrorists occupied the go-to bad guy slot now occupied by Islamic terrorists in popular fiction, characters you could watch being shot by the hero and not feel bad about it. Soldiers patrolled the Belfast streets in armoured vehicles because even armed police weren't seen as being up to the threat. And let's remind ourselves that the Manchester bombing was in 1996, only five years before 9/11, and that there are still dissident Republicans out there trying to kill people.

There are many things about the IS threat that are different, but there are also others that are the same, and it would be an injustice to the people the IRA killed and injured to play down in any way the situation that existed just a few years ago, in real terms.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

11 minutes ago, mormont said:

As tempting as it may be to retrospectively play down the IRA threat, I remember it very well. Many of us grew up not knowing what Gerry Adams even sounded like because it was illegal for news programs to broadcast his voice. His words were read out by actors. Does that sound as if the situation was seen in 'logical' terms, that the IRA were seen as not 'hugely different to you or I'? IRA terrorists occupied the go-to bad guy slot now occupied by Islamic terrorists in popular fiction, characters you could watch being shot by the hero and not feel bad about it. Soldiers patrolled the Belfast streets in armoured vehicles because even armed police weren't seen as being up to the threat. And let's remind ourselves that the Manchester bombing was in 1996, only five years before 9/11, and that there are still dissident Republicans out there trying to kill people.

There are many things about the IS threat that are different, but there are also others that are the same, and it would be an injustice to the people the IRA killed and injured to play down in any way the situation that existed just a few years ago, in real terms.

I'm not downplaying it, but it is different.

The difference is that Islamic Terrorism has no endgame. We cannot understand what they want and its hard to know if they do either. Its a pure ideological difference, a pure hatred of one peoples way of life. The thought processes of these terrorists are so alien to most people that its even more terrifying. 

[ljkeane]

I'm not particularly convinced by that to be honest. Firstly I don't really think anyone is 'terrified' and secondly I think you're overstating the threat of current groups or ideologies because it feels more immediate.

Ok the IRA made some effort, or at least wanted to appear to make the effort, to be less indiscriminate in their attacks but they still killed hundreds of people. They were also a group with the capacity to set off massive bombs, like they did in London and Manchester in the mid nineties, and procure weapons like guns, mortars and rpgs. The extent of ISIS' (probably not really) resources in the UK so far is getting a nutter to hire a car.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

18 minutes ago, ljkeane said:

I'm not particularly convinced by that to be honest. Firstly I don't really think anyone is 'terrified' and secondly I think you're overstating the threat of current groups or ideologies because it feels more immediate.

Ok the IRA made some effort, or at least wanted to appear to make the effort, to be less indiscriminate in their attacks but they still killed hundreds of people. They were also a group with the capacity to set off massive bombs, like they did in London and Manchester in the mid nineties, and procure weapons like guns, mortars and rpgs. The extent of ISIS' (probably not really) resources in the UK so far is getting a nutter to hire a car.

Yeah I agree. Its arguable ISIS has any real influence on events at all, seeing as it mostly just posthumously takes credit for all terrorist incidents in a bid to make it look more important and relevant. There doesn't appear to be anything like the same level of organisation or budget that the IRA have. 

I don't think people are generally terrified of islamic terrorism either, the British have mostly brushed this off and are carrying on as normal (weirdly its my non british friends living in London who are the most concerned about it) . But I do think that Islamic terrorism is able to shout a lot louder and overstate its power because of how illogical and unpredictable it is.