Scootaloo Stark Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Silly question: When Catelyn holds a knife to Jinglebell's throat, she talks and waits for some time. And there are archers in the room. So why didn't anyone shoot her? Did they wait on a signal from Lord Walder? Were they afraid to hit Jinglebell instead? Did they just not care about the fool, and maybe Walder was even glad to be rid of him? (I'm really just asking because I'm curious about this scene, this is not intended to be some sort of Catelyn hating) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Fresh PtwP Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 IRRC, Walder held up his hand or something signalling all the chaos to stop. He wanted to hear her out I guess. Also Tyrion seems kinda shocked in his convo with Tywin that Cat was killed and not a hostage. I think that was sorta the plan but than she went crazy and stopped being useful whatsoever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 I do not know. I support Cat's decision though. She made a threat and followed through. Horrific or not, I would have followes through too. To be honest if my whole family was killed (or presumably killed) I would have lost it way before Catelyn does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raisin' Bran Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 12 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said: IRRC, Walder held up his hand or something signalling all the chaos to stop. He wanted to hear her out I guess. Also Tyrion seems kinda shocked in his convo with Tywin that Cat was killed and not a hostage. I think that was sorta the plan but than she went crazy and stopped being useful whatsoever. Walder knew that the plan was to hold her as a hostage. Cat killing Jinglebell was unexpected and her scratching her face and laughing made her, I think, in the Freys' eyes not worth their time and resources. But from my understanding, we do not know if Walder approved her execution even after she ended Jinglebell's life. And even if Walder did not approve of Raymund executing Cat, I can believe that Walder did little to reprimand him. So in short, I do not believe that Jinglebell's death was expected, but Walder was not very upset about it. Cat's death was not so much driven by her killing Jinglebell, but rather her behavior after. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arya_Stupid! Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 14 hours ago, Scootaloo Stark said: Silly question: When Catelyn holds a knife to Jinglebell's throat, she talks and waits for some time. And there are archers in the room. So why didn't anyone shoot her? Did they wait on a signal from Lord Walder? Were they afraid to hit Jinglebell instead? Did they just not care about the fool, and maybe Walder was even glad to be rid of him? (I'm really just asking because I'm curious about this scene, this is not intended to be some sort of Catelyn hating) @Scootaloo Stark Catelyn was meant to be taken hostage, not killed. I think she was actually meant to be a 'gift' for Baelish from Tywin (but that's neither here nor there). It wasn't until she completely lost her shit that Old Walder had her done for. I don't think that the Frey's thought she had it in her to actually kill anyone, but i also don't think that Walder Frey gave a shit whether his little fool Jinglebell lived or died. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frey family reunion Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Twyin's original plan to take Robb has a hostage too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Universal Sword Donor Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 1 hour ago, Frey family reunion said: Correct me if I'm wrong but wasn't Twyin's original plan to take Robb has a hostage too? Not if you mean his convo with Tyrion. He was trying to kill him with an arrow on the battlefield, on the march, or in the camp and then eventually at the RW. He might have wanted to get him at the Green Fork but I don't believe he states as much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lost Umber Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Did he have to die? Yes. Valar Morghulis.. especially when it comes to Freys. Seriously.. I felt bad for Catelyn when she desperately grabbed him as a hostage. Virtually any other Frey would have been a better choice. It was such a hopeless effort doomed to failure. In the end it meant nothing but I can't blame her for going through on her threat, especially right after watching her son murdered in front of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Xyn Posted February 1, 2017 Share Posted February 1, 2017 Where is everyone getting the idea that X was meant to be kept as a hostage? It makes sense to me, at least for Catelyn because Robb was the first one killed. I'm just wondering if it's a generally accepted theory or if there is textual evidence I missed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
black_hart Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 2 hours ago, PraetorXyn said: Where is everyone getting the idea that X was meant to be kept as a hostage? It makes sense to me, at least for Catelyn because Robb was the first one killed. I'm just wondering if it's a generally accepted theory or if there is textual evidence I missed. Because some people are desperate to rationalise and excuse. They could just as well keep her as a hostage after she killed Jinglebells, but apparently they didn't and they would not, because with her alive what would Roose Bolton get out of the deal? How to control the North when the widow of the Lord Paramount is still alive, and we know widows do indeed inherit. Unless the fake Arya scheme was started only as a second thought after Catelyn died, but I suppose we can rule that out since it did not happen and Jeyne Poole was broken and trained for some time. Tywin says she was meant to be a hostage, but a hostage against whom? She has limited value as a hostage. The Blackfish won't bend, and Lysa did not even support Robb when her lords wanted her to and no one else to use her against is known to be alive. While on the other hand it makes the Bolton position much less secure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Protagoras Posted February 2, 2017 Share Posted February 2, 2017 Obviously Catelyns value supercedes Jinglebells by several degrees and that if there was a possibilty to take her alive and save Jinglebell, they would do it. Catelyn is, after all, an excellent hostage to have Then, when the deed was done, they got angry and decided to kill her off. In the same way that everyone will shoot their gun in a mexican stand-off if one person does or the same way a cop will shoot a robber who executes a civilian. Was it stupid? Most likely, but then again it was an act of passion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted February 4, 2017 Share Posted February 4, 2017 I think it's rationalization from historical evidence that noble women were often valued as hostages due to a combination of them both being "safer" than a male hostage who could come back t o fight you and idealized chivalry that you shouldn't slay the weak (and women where seen as weak). This line of thinking is, imho, where Tyrion's shock comes from. The Lady was seen as an untouchable ideal, not to be harmed or defiled, but treated with as much courtesy, while you killed her husband and sons right in front of her. Like most courtly ideas and fancies it was a ridiculous construct that hardly ever withstood the cold, hard brutality of war, still we like to think of ourselves as civilized and thus Tyrion was shocked. IRL the whole chivalric code was a vain attempt to stop roving knights from killing each other in the streets and having their way with peasant girls when there weren't enough wars for them to fight in. Same with the Crusades to an extent (don't rape and pillage our villagers...rape and pillage the infidels! ....for Jesus!) Tywin is too much of a pragmatist to think along such lines, there was no value in having Catlyn as a hostage, since they destroyed the Starks and the whole enemy faction. There was no one left to ransom her to. They had Edmure, they had Sansa, had given the Riverlands to Baelish and the North to the Boltons. She was no longer worth the effort to keep alive and feed. After all he was the guy who sent people to kill Elia and her children, why would he treat Catelyn better? Because she's a POV character? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schwarze Sonne Posted February 5, 2017 Share Posted February 5, 2017 Well, poor Jinglebell didn't have to die or even deserve it. He was just unlucky to be held hostage by Catelyn. BTW, Catelyn looked at Jinglebell in mute appeal before cutting his throat. Guess whom was another person being looked at by mute appeal from a Stark? It's Daenerys! She saw the vision of the feast in HotU and in there a man with a wolf head looked at her with mute appeal. I believe that Jon and Daenerys will come to conflict! What happened to poor Jinglebell is a hint for the upcoming Stark vs Targaryen, presumably after Dance 2.0 had ended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victarian Revolution Posted February 14, 2017 Share Posted February 14, 2017 Can people please stop calling him 'Jinglebells' - he's not a bloody Christmas song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tianzi Posted February 15, 2017 Share Posted February 15, 2017 On 5.02.2017 at 0:36 AM, Orphalesion said: I think it's rationalization from historical evidence that noble women were often valued as hostages due to a combination of them both being "safer" than a male hostage who could come back t o fight you and idealized chivalry that you shouldn't slay the weak (and women where seen as weak). This line of thinking is, imho, where Tyrion's shock comes from. The Lady was seen as an untouchable ideal, not to be harmed or defiled, but treated with as much courtesy, while you killed her husband and sons right in front of her. Like most courtly ideas and fancies it was a ridiculous construct that hardly ever withstood the cold, hard brutality of war, still we like to think of ourselves as civilized and thus Tyrion was shocked. IRL the whole chivalric code was a vain attempt to stop roving knights from killing each other in the streets and having their way with peasant girls when there weren't enough wars for them to fight in. Same with the Crusades to an extent (don't rape and pillage our villagers...rape and pillage the infidels! ....for Jesus!) Tywin is too much of a pragmatist to think along such lines, there was no value in having Catlyn as a hostage, since they destroyed the Starks and the whole enemy faction. There was no one left to ransom her to. They had Edmure, they had Sansa, had given the Riverlands to Baelish and the North to the Boltons. She was no longer worth the effort to keep alive and feed. After all he was the guy who sent people to kill Elia and her children, why would he treat Catelyn better? Because she's a POV character? They made some use of Edmure. Cat was the Tully-born widowed Lady Stark, she could be married, even by Roose or Ramsay Bolton (Lady Hornwood, anyone?). Of course, she was a difficult one, as proven when she kidnapped Tyrion. Maybe witnessing what she's capable of when pressed was what made the Freys decide she is not worth the risk. As for Jingle....whatever was his nickname, I do feel bad for him and it's really ironic that she grabbed like the only innocent Frey in the castle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.