Bonkers

Possible ways forward from Alayne sample chapter...

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So I just read the sample chapter for Sansa "Alayne", and I had some thoughts I wanted to share.  Obviously at this stage we are only speculating on which way Sansa's  journey may go, so here are my thoughts.  It is interesting at this point to think about which direction GRRM may take her arc, I would like to see some of these things happen for her.

Given that Harry the Heir is going to be jousting, and Alayne has refused him her favour to wear, I wondered whether there will be a throwback to a past tourney.  At Ned's tourney at KL, Jon Arryn's squire is killed by a lance throught the throat, he was an important person to Ned's investigation and he was killed.  In Sansa II GoT, she thinks

"The young knight in the blue cloak was nothing to her, some stranger from the Vale of Arryn who's name she had forgotten as soon as she heard it.  And now the world would forget his name too, Sansa realized;  There would be no songs sung for him.  That was sad." 

In contrast to this knight, at the tourney there was Ser Loars Tyrell, whom she was besotted with and cheered him on, even receiving a red rose from him after he won.  She later dreams of marrying him, and how happy she would be - before she learned that life was not a song.

Fast forward to the sample chapter, and we have her at another grand tourney, this time she appears to be in the opposite situation.  She is not highborn but a bastard.  Rather than being quiet, shy and giddy, she is very social.  She dances a great deal, is very mindful and even has the confidence to openly flirt with Harry the Heir, charming him with her wit and teasing him with sexual innuendos.   Rather than hoping for attention from her potential 'knight in shining armor', she has his undivided attention.  He even wants to wear her favour.  But unlike her desire for Loras to do so, she refuses him - obviously as recommended by LF. 

It would be an interesting throwback, if it came to pass that HtH were to be killed in the tourney the same way the squire had at Ned's tourney, perhaps by the knight wearing her favour (as opposition to the Mountain killing the squire).  HtH is very important to her plans with LF, and we would have total chaos after.  The opposite to the squire in relation to herself though, he is not a "nothing to her" stranger, he is everything she has ever hoped for, and her ticket home.  But "there would be no songs sung for him.  That was sad." may again have relevance. 

Now if that were to happen, it would be bedlam.  Robert would be the only Vale heir, and everyone would be beside themselves.  A perfect opportunity for Ser Shaddrick to kidnap Sansa, if you recall his comment to her when asked if he will join the melee event

“A good melee is all a hedge knight can hope for, unless he stumbles on a bag of dragons. And that’s not likely, is it?”

I would expect him to become aware of her identity and the killing of HtH is the perfect opportunity to take advantage of that. 

Let's say he then escapes - with Sansa - to the Mountain Pass, where we have the Mountain Clans.  As there is snow in the mountain pass, the journey is not likely to move quickly, and the possibility of getting lost is there.  But the clansmen know the mountains, so it would be likely they cross them and threaten to kill them.  Now we have a cool possibility that I reeeally would like to see.  Sansa tells them who she is, the Halfman's wife.  They then recognize her, kill her captures and take her to safety.  Given that they appreciate Tyrion, and hate his family for turning them all away after the Blackwater, and refusing to thank them and pay them for their service, they would most definitely be on her side opposing the Lannisters.  It can be assumed they would trust her word as the Halfman's wife.  It mirrors what Jon is attempting with integrating the Wildlings into the North by having her make pacts between the KotV and the clansmen.

Sansa knows, through Lysa's rantings that LF had a part to play in Jon Arryn's death, and likely the downfall of her family.  If she were to take this opportunity to dispose him of his position she could.  Given there would be no HtH, only sweetrobin, who loves her and does anything she days, Sansa is in a strong position to take charge of the Vale, as Lysa's niece and maybe at Sweetrobin's command.  If she were to be escorted to the Bloody Gate by the Clansmen, let her true self be known and have LF called out, her position would be strong to allow her to tell of his crimes - Lysa's murder - and take him into custody, thus having the support of all the Mountain Clans, and the knights of the Vale.  This means her identity is okay to be exposed as she has a large army at her command.

Whether she would marry Sweetrobin for the power depends on whether she has learned enough from LF to play the Game or not, and whether she chooses to play the Game or not. 

It would be awesome to have her army take back the Riverlands and Riverrun.  Then, once Stannis clears Moat Cailin, she makes her way back home to Winterfell, thus uniting Stannis' army, the mountain clans, the knights of the Vale, the conspirators against the Boltons and the Riverland Lords.

Sweetrobin may even make him fly.... although the Eyrie is shut now do... :(

Just some fun ideas on where her plotline might go.  She needs to start doing something soon before the books end LOL.  I hope to see her storyline tie back in with other main characters.   

Does anyone have any other ideas?  Thoughts?

Edited by Bonkers

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Interesting idea and scenario. The Vale at the start of WoW is a big mystery for me. There are so many variables, which I have no idea about their true motive. LF for once has his hands full with running the show in Vale and he's the one on the spot, no longer the man behind the curtain. I am very curious what is up his sleeve.

As far as the variables. What's Ser Lyn's deal? What will the Waynwoods + Harry do? What will Myranda do? She seems like the loose canon type :-D. And most of all: What is the Mad Mouse up to? I'm sure he figured out that Alayne=Sansa long ago. He's searching Sansa for a while, and LF pulled this girl, that fits the description (except the hair, but c'mon, Ser Shadrich is no Brienne :-), out of his asshole. I'm looking forward to his next move.

Like I wrote, the Vale is a big question mark at the moment. The chapter is my favourite from all samples we have available. It moved the story in a direction, where I do not know what's gonna happen next. I love it. I sincerely hope Mad Mouse enters SANSA's service. It would be and interesting parallel with Tyrion's Vale storyline. Sellsword of questionable loyalty and a main character.

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Sansa and the reader both should quickly realize that Harry inheriting the Vale is not in LF's interest. Plus, he likely has intentions of marrying her himself. Ever since the sample chapter, I'm looking forward to reading that part of the story. 

Edited by PCK

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On 2/1/2017 at 2:15 AM, Bonkers said:

Let's say he then escapes - with Sansa - to the Mountain Pass, where we have the Mountain Clans.  As there is snow in the mountain pass, the journey is not likely to move quickly, and the possibility of getting lost is there.  But the clansmen know the mountains, so it would be likely they cross them and threaten to kill them.  Now we have a cool possibility that I reeeally would like to see.  Sansa tells them who she is, the Halfman's wife.  They then recognize her, kill her captures and take her to safety.  Given that they appreciate Tyrion, and hate his family for turning them all away after the Blackwater, and refusing to thank them and pay them for their service, they would most definitely be on her side opposing the Lannisters.  It can be assumed they would trust her word as the Halfman's wife.  It mirrors what Jon is attempting with integrating the Wildlings into the North by having her make pacts between the KotV and the clansmen.

People have long speculate about something along these lines, but I don't think it makes any sense.

We're repeatedly told that the High Road is basically impassable now, so to begin with it's dubious that Shadrich would choose to go that way

But on the larger issue of Sansa and the clans, if Sansa was supposed to interact with the clans extensively going forward, GRRM would surely have had her have some sort of meaningful interaction with them in King's Landing when they were both in the city.  Moreover, the clans left before Sansa married Tyrion; they would have no reason to believe she's Tyrion's wife, and it's even more of leap that, having been told that, they'd default to doing whatever she said.  Their relationship with the Lannisters ended on bad terms, and Tyrion found the hard to manage even when they were on his side.

11 hours ago, PCK said:

Sansa and the reader both should quickly realize that Harry inheriting the Vale is not in LF's interest.

If he wants to actually make use of the Vale's military forces going forward, yes, it is; Littlefinger quite plausibly outlined the limits of his current position in AFFC.  None of that is inconsistent with the idea that Littlefinger might get rid of Harry eventually in order to openly marry Sansa, perhaps, but nevertheless, it makes sense as a plan for now.

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Lynn kills Harry on the tourney grounds because he's a violent man and pissed off at LF. Yohn would have warned Harry against Sansa as she's LF's pawn.The betrothal between Harry and Sansa depends on Harry oking it. Harry insulted Sansa at the gates and she turned cold to him, everyone saw Sansa and Harry's dance, from afar that scene doesn't look like the playful hard to get flirting that it was, it looks like they're not getting along. Lynn is LF's man. Yohn is going to believe LF had Lynn kill Harry because the betrothal fell through. Or that's going to be his excuse anyway to call the banners and march on the Gates to remove LF and take custody of Sweetrobin, as he wanted, as was the point of the Lord's Declarant. Nestor will stand with LF because if LF is removed he will lose the his claim on the Gates.

Yohn marches on the gates, eventually they fall, Sansa/SR and probably LF (if Sansa hasn't done him in herself yet) end back up the Eyrie as a matter of desperation, a place of infinite defensibility provided they can survive the cold. A stalemate. Come the deus ex machina, dragons arrive on westeros.

Edited by chrisdaw

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On 1/31/2017 at 11:15 PM, Bonkers said:

Just some fun ideas on where her plotline might go.  She needs to start doing something soon before the books end LOL.  I hope to see her storyline tie back in with other main characters.   

Does anyone have any other ideas?  Thoughts?

Trying to make guesses as to exactly what will happen is likely a fool's errand, since any detailed account almost certainly won't happen that way.  Also, Sansa's story is one that can go in many different directions.  Her story, as well as Arya's is among the most difficult to predict.  I do have a few thoughts however.

Something major will happen at the tourney.  I am not sure what.  Someone may die.  Someone (Shadrich?) may try to kidnap Sansa.  But something will happen to upset the applecart and set things in motion..

Sansa is not going to marry Harry the Heir.  Won't happen.  She is still married, and shows no interest in marrying again.  Plus nobody's plans ever pan out.

Littlefinger is Sansa's antagonist at this point.  I am fairly convinced that she will destroy him when she realizes what he has done (or will do).

Sweetrobin is not going to be in a position to order anyone to do anything.  He is 9 years old.  He can ask nicely, and the Lords of the Vale might do as he asks, especially if Sansa joins him.  But he has no real power, and won't for some time.  The only reason he could "make people fly" is because Lysa let him.

My own guess is that Sansa winds up at Winterfell, and is becomes involved in the political aspects of the fight against the Others.  In other words, she rallies support, and maybe helps with organizing evacuations and the like.  Her realm is the political, and she will become far better at it than she is now, and that will play out in the rest of the story.  

Edited by Nevets

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On 11/02/2017 at 10:33 AM, Nevets said:

Trying to make guesses as t exactly what will happen is likely a fool's errand, since any detailed account almost certainly won't happen that way.

Yes I agree ...but it is interesting to see how others interpret the story and what their opinions are on possible ways forward. 

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On 2017-02-09 at 11:12 AM, Colonel Green said:

But on the larger issue of Sansa and the clans, if Sansa was supposed to interact with the clans extensively going forward, GRRM would surely have had her have some sort of meaningful interaction with them in King's Landing when they were both in the city.  Moreover, the clans left before Sansa married Tyrion; they would have no reason to believe she's Tyrion's wife, and it's even more of leap that, having been told that, they'd default to doing whatever she said.  Their relationship with the Lannisters ended on bad terms, and Tyrion found the hard to manage even when they were on his side.

I've been a little scarce around here lately, but my mind's been going like crazy! 

In regards to Sansa/Alayne's new Vale chapter, I've been looking for and at some of the parallels between her current story and Ned's pre-Rebellion story.  Now, I agree that if *Tyrion* was the focus, then yes, Sansa would have had more and better interactions with the tribesmen while they were in KL and Tyrion was around, and that GRRM would have made sure we (the readers) knew that the tribesmen knew her and Tyrion were married.  I speculate that it's not going to be her *husband* the tribesmen take note of - it's her *father*.  Some of these tribes would have been the tribes that helped Ned get from the Vale to the Bite, (and then the fisherman and his daughter took him to, I assume, White Harbour and from there up to Winterfell) and most of the tribesmen we've met would be about the age to remember Ned coming through when they were kids.  So I speculate that Sansa only has to convince the tribesmen she's Ned Stark's daughter, not Tyrion Lannister's wife.  And with Timmett, Chella, and Shagga having met her in KL, they'll be the one's who confirm her identity. As Sansa Stark, daughter of Ned - not wife of Tyrion.  (Maybe not Shagga - he's in the Kingswood, yes?)

 

In short - I'm of the opinion that if her story is heading towards the tribesmen then who here father was will matter more than who her husband is (though I do think they still look rather favourably on Tyrion, even if they're not big fans of Tywin and Cersei!  I don't think who her husband is or isn't is going to make or break her escape - I think it's all about her dad.)

Edited by Jak Scaletongue

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14 minutes ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

Some of these tribes would have been the tribes that helped Ned get from the Vale to the Bite, (and then the fisherman and his daughter took him to, I assume, White Harbour and from there up to Winterfell) and most of the tribesmen we've met would be about the age to remember Ned coming through when they were kids.  So I speculate that Sansa only has to convince the tribesmen she's Ned Stark's daughter, not Tyrion Lannister's wife. 

Ned didn't have any interaction with the Vale mountain clans.

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I'm at work, so I'm at the whims of the Wiki and the Searchoiaf.

From the "Eddard Stark" page under "Robert's Rebellion" header (http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Eddard_Stark

Quote

With his father and brother dead, Eddard was now the Lord of Winterfell. He wanted to raise his banners to join the rebellion, but getting from the Vale of Arryn to the north was complicated by the fact that Gulltown, the Vale's chief port, had stayed loyal to the Iron Throne.[20][21] Eddard had to cross the Mountains of the Moon to the Fingers and hire a fisherman to bring him to White Harbor with a boat. They were caught by a storm on the Bite and the fisherman drowned. However, his daughter managed to bring Eddard to the Three Sisters. When he arrived at Sisterton, House Borrell's maester urged Lord Borrell to deliver Eddard's head to King Aerys II Targaryen, but Lord Borrell, knowing that Jon Arryn and Robert Baratheon had taken Gulltown in the meantime, was unsure who would prevail in the conflict. Thus he let Ned leave for White Harbor, telling him to remain silent about his stay in Sisterton in case the rebellion failed.[21]

[footnote 20 is AFFC Alayne I, footnote 21 is ADWD Davos I]

From ADWD Davos I

Quote
"Ned Stark was here?"
"At the dawn of Robert's Rebellion. The Mad King had sent to the Eyrie for Stark's head, but Jon Arryn sent him back defiance. Gulltown stayed loyal to the throne, though. To get home and call his banners, Stark had to cross the mountains to the Fingers and find a fisherman to carry him across the Bite. A storm caught them on the way. The fisherman drowned, but his daughter got Stark to the Sisters before the boat went down. They say he left her with a bag of silver and a bastard in her belly. Jon Snow, she named him, after Arryn.
"Be that as it may. My father sat where I sit now when Lord Eddard came to Sisterton. Our maester urged us to send Stark's head to Aerys, to prove our loyalty. It would have meant a rich reward. The Mad King was open-handed with them as pleased him. By then we knew that Jon Arryn had taken Gulltown, though. Robert was the first man to gain the wall, and slew Marq Grafton with his own hand. 'This Baratheon is fearless,' I said. 'He fights the way a king should fight.' Our maester chuckled at me and told us that Prince Rhaegar was certain to defeat this rebel. That was when Stark said, 'In this world only winter is certain. We may lose our heads, it's true … but what if we prevail?' My father sent him on his way with his head still on his shoulders. 'If you lose,' he told Lord Eddard, 'you were never here.' "

I've run out of time to find the relevant AFFC quote - or it's just to verify that Gull Town stayed loyal until Jon Arryn and Robert took it.

 

At any rate, he's not going to get from the Eyrie to the Fingers through the Mountains of the Moon (without using the road cause if you're trying to be sneaky, using the ONLY road in and out is pure stupidity - not too mention drastically longer than cutting across the mountains straight to the Bite/Fingers, especially when time is of the essence) without coming across at least one clan - a clan who clearly helped him, since they didn't kill him...

So, I'll concede we don't know *how much* contact Ned had with the tribesmen in the Mountains of the Moon but he had to have one favourable outcome with at least one friendly clan in order to successfully cross the Mountains of the Moon to get to the Fingers and the Bite without anyone of importance being any the wiser and without being killed by tribesmen who appear to hate everything the aristocrats and nobility have and stand for (particularly the Andal nobility - which I think is where Ned's advantage comes in; he's a First Man, not an Andal). 

But since we're already speculating wildly about where Sansa's story is going to go, I'm simply throwing in my two cents: that her story will parallel her father's pre-Rebellion story* and Ned will have more to do with her Vale arc than Tyrion (Ned is the one who spent his childhood in the Vale after all; and for all that Sansa is said to resemble her mother I'm betting that a 14 y.o Sansa with brown hair doesn't look so drastically different from the last 14 y.o Stark they had in the Vale - but LF's not wrong when he says people see what they want to see, so we'll see how that goes).   

*I also think Sansa's Vale arc will give us more information about Ned's pre-Rebellion time in the Vale, as well as paralleling it to some degree.

Edited by Jak Scaletongue
added link for Ned's wiki page

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6 hours ago, Jak Scaletongue said:

At any rate, he's not going to get from the Eyrie to the Fingers through the Mountains of the Moon (without using the road cause if you're trying to be sneaky, using the ONLY road in and out is pure stupidity - not too mention drastically longer than cutting across the mountains straight to the Bite/Fingers, especially when time is of the essence) without coming across at least one clan - a clan who clearly helped him, since they didn't kill him...

What's your basis for saying there's only one road?  He was traveling through the interior mountains of the Vale, e.g., where places like Strongsong and the Snakewood are, not the region outside the Bloody Gate where the clansmen dwell.

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You're right, I had my geography mixed up.  Going through the interior mountains means he likely didn't have any roads to follow, not any road worth the name anyway. 

At any rate, I'm of the opinion that 1) we haven't seen the last of the mountain tribes 2) Sansa's Vale arc will give us information about Ned's time in the Vale, one way or another 3) Timett and Chella having met Sansa Stark in KL is also important  and 4) who *she* is will have more bearing than who she's married to (cause who knows how this Alayne/Harry thing's gonna go...).  Maybe I haven't made the right connections to the clans, but right now it's the only way I can reconcile those four things.  Who knows, maybe the clans show up into the story in the Riverlands instead of the Vale (seems unlikely though - they seemed pretty obsessed about getting the Vale back).

There was too much emphasis on the mountain clans early on for their tale to be done with already - and with Tyrion's debt to them still outstanding...he *did* promise them the Vale.  We can't have seen the last of them.  They seem important to Tyrion's personal arc, they seem important to the Vale arc (as a whole, not Sansa's Vale arc specifically. They're important to the story of the Vale), and the Vale is so far pretty important in Ned's past, Sansa's personal arc, and Tyrion's personal arc; I feel like all those things should intersect at some point.

Sansa's Vale arc seems like to perfect opportunity to parallel, or shadow, or whatever, some of Ned's story.  I don't think we're going to get a complete narrative from someone like Royce about Ned's time there but I think we'll get some anecdotes and likely be able to infer more from the text.

I don't know why I feel like it's important, but I do feel like GRRM tried to sweep it under the rug, tried not to make it too obvious - which makes me think we should pay attention to that tidbit.....it's too easy to forget that Timett and Chella don't know that her and their Halfman were married, or even that Sansa actually did meet them. And some of the things that are easy forgettable are starting to seem like important plot points....but only time will tell if that's true, I suppose!

This last one I feel is a bit more...obvious in that, as far as we know, Timett and Chella don't even know.  And if "Alayne" is married to Harry, I'm not sure how that will go down with the clans....I can certainly speculate but I can see all sorts of scenarios; but if Timett can recognize her (and didn't LF mention something about letting the dye out of her hair...) then who knows.  Though I think if they recognize her, she gets more sympathy from them, mostly because they've seen her put on a "show" for Cersei and Joffrey in KL so it'll be easier for Sansa to convince them "Alayne" is a "show" as well.  But that's just me speculating.

Anyway, I've probably hit my word vomit limit for the day and should stop procrastinating!  It's been fun!

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I think Sansa's story will be linked to Jamie's and Brienne's at some point in the book. Harry will die at the tourney while Littlefinger will probably also die later on in the winds.

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Just a scenario to discuss: Let's say Harry survives and someone spills the beans about Alayne=Sansa to him. I think Sansa will be capable of wrapping him around his finger Cersei styl and play him like a fiddle to do her bidding. We see that thoughout 1 chapter, he goes from being total ass to kind of infatuated. Thoughts?

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9 hours ago, majgat said:

I think Sansa will be capable of wrapping him around his finger Cersei styl and play him like a fiddle to do her bidding.

When has Cersei ever been able to do that?

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10 hours ago, majgat said:

Just a scenario to discuss: Let's say Harry survives and someone spills the beans about Alayne=Sansa to him. I think Sansa will be capable of wrapping him around his finger Cersei styl and play him like a fiddle to do her bidding. We see that thoughout 1 chapter, he goes from being total ass to kind of infatuated. Thoughts?

I wouldn't be surprised if Lady Waynwood knows and that's why she allowed the betrothal in the first place.  If you think about it, "Alayne Stone" is a pretty thin disguise.  In any case, I seriously doubt she will marry Harry.  She is a) already married; b  not interested in marrying again; and c) I don't she particularly likes or trusts Harry.  She is only flirting with him at Littlefinger's orders.  And I expect that relationship to run into trouble at some point.

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15 hours ago, Colonel Green said:

When has Cersei ever been able to do that?

Lancel? Osney? Jaime? No one questions the outcome of her "machinations", but you have to admit, she has some power over certain men, at certain times.

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4 hours ago, majgat said:

Lancel? Osney? Jaime? No one questions the outcome of her "machinations", but you have to admit, she has some power over certain men, at certain times.

Kettleblack is an agent of Littlefinger working against her, but Lancel, fair enough.

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I love the idea that Harry The Heir - while talking to "Alayne" - talks openly about Ned's past at some point, and doesn't hold back...not knowing she is "My Lady" Heir to Winterfell LOL!!! 

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On 2/14/2017 at 2:12 PM, Colonel Green said:

Ned didn't have any interaction with the Vale mountain clans.

Agreed. In fact IIRC when the Clans attacked Catelyn's group they went something like: Stark who?

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