US Politics: Papers, Please

[butterbumps!]

26 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Are the differences between a Nazi and a white supremacist, on the one hand, and someone who favours strong and ethnically/religious selective immigration, on the other, really only technical?

I don't really get what you mean about "only technical" here.  White supremacy is a form of white nationalism.  All white supremacists are white nationalists; not all white nationalists are supremacists.   Spencer is a white supremacist.  Bannon is a nationalist.

Quote

 

We know that Bannon subscribes to something like Huntingdon's clash of civilizations when it comes to the west and Islam. This is not necessarily anything to do with white nationalism. He is also against mass immigration of non-white people on grounds of national/social cohesion (based on comments to Trump about the Asian execs) so I won't quibble with the white nationalism charge but I'm not sure it is the most accurate way to categorize him. I don't think he is a guy who prizes 'racial purity' or anything like that. What do you think he means by culturally 'pure' nation, is this actually a phrase he used?

Anyway, it seems there is a lot of jumping to conclusions around here.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/nancy-pelosi-steve-bannon-white-supremacist-muslim-travel-ban-donald-trump-islam-breitbart-a7560031.html

This article labels Bannon a white supremacist purely on the basis of the Muslim ban. The Muslim ban is in intent defensive, it is based on the idea that allowing Islamic enclaves to grow in your nation has all sorts of ill effects including the erosion of important freedoms, adoption of undesirable Islamic practices, home grown terrorism and a loss of identity. Or, at least I assume that is Bannon's reasoning, because it is not the official explanation. It is based on observation of what happens in Muslim majority countries and in European countries where the Muslim populations are larger (as a % of the pop) than is the case in the US.

 

It's not just an anti-Muslim, Clash of Civilizations thing with Bannon.   He believes that there is an essential culture to America, and wishes to "return" to it.  His view of essential American culture is very Christian, very white, and specifically an Anglo whiteness.   People in his camp also go by the term "cultural preservationists."  

From what I've read, I think Bannon's exploiting people's irrational fears of Islam to shut down immigration, not necessarily because he thinks it's a threat to American safety, but because he sees foreign influx and influence as corrupting the supposedly American essential culture.  Muslims are an easy scapegoat for the time being, as Islam is largely unknown, and for many people, they are a big bad "other."   

I don't care what that particular article says.   I don't agree with the view that his being behind the Muslim ban alone makes him a white supremacist, and I don't think he's a supremacist exactly because he doesn't seek domination that I can tell.  But he's more than just a fellow traveler of the white supremacists; he actively fosters them and allies with them in pursuit of his noxious political aims.  I wouldn't waste too much energy arguing against his white supremacy.

I'm not an expert on the situation in Europe, but it's my understanding that Muslim immigrants are treated much differently here than in many places in Europe (they aren't pushed into "enclaves," but become part of our society, like any group of immigrants to the country).  Further, our country is immigrants.  This idea of essential Americanness Bannon appeals to is largely a Norman Rockwellian, mid century Madison Ave fiction.  What happens in Europe regarding increased Muslim immigration doesn't necessarily translate well to the US.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 hour ago, Chaircat Meow said:

Do you genuinely see no other explanation for Bannon's actions than a belief that white people are superior to other races and should rule them?

No, I agree that the Muslim Ban doesn't necessarily equate to White Supremacy. You make a fair point.

[Martell Spy]

Virginia Congressman Says Women Are All Up ‘In My Grill’ About Health Care

http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/01/virginia-rep-dave-brat-say-women-are-all-up-in-my-grill.html

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Martell Spy said:

Virginia Congressman Says Women Are All Up ‘In My Grill’ About Health Care

http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/01/virginia-rep-dave-brat-say-women-are-all-up-in-my-grill.html

Now, wasn't there some conversation about what political fights Democrats should think about starting?

Is it possible the Republican Party just charged a bit too hardly here, without doing any proper recon, and now find themselves in one big fuckin fire sac? And perhaps their escape route can be utterly cut off?

Could this just be the Charge of the Conservative (Light) Brigade?

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Now, wasn't there some conversation about what political fights Democrats should think about starting?

Is it possible the Republican Party just charged a bit to hardly here, without doing any proper recon, and now find themselves in one big fuckin fire sac? And perhaps their escape route can be utterly cut off?

Could this just be the Charge of the Conservative (Light) Brigade?

Ha ha!  Poor little tea bagger is being scared by a bunch of wimmens!  Gubermentin' is hard!

[Dr. Pepper]

22 minutes ago, Martell Spy said:

Virginia Congressman Says Women Are All Up ‘In My Grill’ About Health Care

http://nymag.com/thecut/2017/01/virginia-rep-dave-brat-say-women-are-all-up-in-my-grill.html

From the article:

Quote

He added that the grill invasion continues online: “I had one woman on my Facebook say she was going to get up in my grill,” he said in a separate interview. “There’s paid protesters … paid activists on the far left, not my Democratic friends I go to church with. They’re being paid to go around and raise havoc.”

So apparently because his church buddies don't discuss healthcare or politics with him, his constituents must be paid activists?  What is with conservative obsession that any opposition must be illegitimate because they are paid?

[karaddin]

 

9 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I think Orlando probably qualifies.

This fucking offensive appropriation of a tragedy to suit your argument can fuck off along with the rest of the concern trolling that the right engages with about Muslims oppressing LGBTQI people.

10 hours ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

The protesters need a new playbook here. This was beyond unnecessary, it was just plain stupid. How many people do you think are going to show up for a Milo speech at Berkeley? 200? Put him in a large auditorium and tape how anemic the crowd looks, that would be more damaging to his brand. The one legit card this one note joke has to play is the one the protesters hand him.

7 hours ago, Kalbear said:

This was a similar playbook to Seattle - where a number of anarchists armed with crowbars and wearing masks came and disrupted everything. It sucks. I'm not sure what the right strategy to deal with it is, but perhaps simply ignoring Milo is the right call and let the anarchists duel it out on their own. 

In addition to what CCLiT said-

7 hours ago, Crazy Cat Lady in Training said:

Well, what they did was wrong, but I don't want them to die. They've been causing problems for years. 

But to say it again: Milo's extreme right wing, white supremacist views should not be tolerated. He's deliberately trying to inflame and incite with his hateful rhetoric. And you can't expect college kids to have the maturity of older adults. You'd better believe that Milo is well aware of that. 

What do you think about Dear Leader threatening to cut off federal funds for universities whose students riot? He's accusing Berkeley of not allowing free speech. 

Milo now has track record of inciting harassment of individual trans people at the University he is speaking at. As someone who could have their photo put up at such an event if he visited my uni, with my name given and a bunch of young men encouraged to seek me out and ruin my life, the idea that students at a University he is scheduled to speak at should just shut up and accept the oncoming hate train is really fucking horrid. He's not just preaching generally hateful politics, he makes it personal. Fuck your greater politics, these kids are at least standing up and resisting.

[LongRider]

3 minutes ago, Dr. Pepper said:

From the article:

So apparently because his church buddies don't discuss healthcare or politics with him, his constituents must be paid activists?  What is with conservative obsession that any opposition must be illegitimate because they are paid?

Next article; "they're getting up in my grill about healthcare and telling me that they are protesting for free!  But I don't believe them.  George Soros told them to say that."   

[Martell Spy]

How Trump’s immigration ban threatens health care, in 3 charts

http://www.vox.com/2017/2/1/14470746/trumps-immigration-ban-healthcare-doctors

 

Uber CEO Quits Trump Panel Over Ban

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheats/2017/02/02/uber-ceo-quits-trump-panel-over-ban.html?via=desktop&source=copyurl

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

19 minutes ago, karaddin said:

This fucking offensive appropriation of a tragedy to suit your argument can fuck off along with the rest of the concern trolling that the right engages with about Muslims oppressing LGBTQI people.

 

Milo now has track record of inciting harassment of individual trans people at the University he is speaking at. As someone who could have their photo put up at such an event if he visited my uni, with my name given and a bunch of young men encouraged to seek me out and ruin my life, the idea that students at a University he is scheduled to speak at should just shut up and accept the oncoming hate train is really fucking horrid. He's not just preaching generally hateful politics, he makes it personal. Fuck your greater politics, these kids are at least standing up and resisting.

 I wasn't making the argument. Mexal asked for an example of Islamic violence against gays in the United States. If Orlando isn't an example of that, I'm not sure what is. I'm not appropriating anything. I'm neither concern trolling or right. I do believe however that refusing to label that act as being one of Islamic terror is taking political correctness to an extreme that borders on ignorance. 

 I agree that Milo is a despicable little shit. That said, this protest did far more to further his cause than his actual speech could've hoped to do. On top of that, freedom of speech is the cornerstone of this countrys' democracy. I'd pretty much put it above any other ideal that our republic rests on. These kids did not think it through. Their resistance in this case lead to a bit of a media and public opinion coup in this particular instance. 

[Kalbear]

NEVER FORGET

The Bowling Green Massacre will forever be marked as a dark time in this nation. We endured, we healed, we persevered, and we rebuilt Bowling Green, wherever it may be. Today, take the time to talk with your loved ones about this dark day, learn the lessons that we should have never forgotten, and remind each other of what it is to be a true patriot and American. 
NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN. Or, uh, ever.

Link to video.

 

 

[karaddin]

6 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I wasn't making the argument. Mexal asked for an example of Islamic violence against gays in the United States. If Orlando isn't an example of that, I'm not sure what is. I'm not appropriating anything. I'm neither concern trolling or right. I do believe however that refusing to label that act as being one of Islamic terror is taking political correctness to an extreme that borders on ignorance. 

 I agree that Milo is a despicable little shit. That said, this protest did far more to further his cause than his actual speech could've hoped to do. On top of that, freedom of speech is the cornerstone of this countrys' democracy. I'd pretty much put it above any other ideal that our republic rests on. These kids did not think it through. Their resistance in this case lead to a bit of a media and public opinion coup in this particular instance. 

I wasn't saying you are concern trolling, but you're volunteering this as an example of Islamic terror in defense of concern trolling by the right wing. In context Pulse isn't remotely what is being talked about and it belongs in the list of dysfunctional male violence in the US as much (I'd argue much much more) as Islamic terror, the latter is just the figleaf that he decided to sprinkle on top.

On the second bit, feel free to continue claiming "it helps their cause" but you're really offering no proof and when every single avenue of fucking resistance continues to be told "don't do this, you're helping them! Don't do that, you're helping them!" it kinda leads to feeling like this.

[IamMe90]

8 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I wasn't saying you are concern trolling, but you're volunteering this as an example of Islamic terror in defense of concern trolling by the right wing. In context Pulse isn't remotely what is being talked about and it belongs in the list of dysfunctional male violence in the US as much (I'd argue much much more) as Islamic terror, the latter is just the figleaf that he decided to sprinkle on top.

On the second bit, feel free to continue claiming "it helps their cause" but you're really offering no proof and when every single avenue of fucking resistance continues to be told "don't do this, you're helping them! Don't do that, you're helping them!" it kinda leads to feeling like this.

Answering a question = defending concern trolling, alright. 

And yeah, disrupting peaceful protest by lighting shit on fire and putting people's lives in danger is totally a valid avenue of resistance. No one should ever say that this is a bad thing to do, or that it's counterproductive. 

[karaddin]

2 minutes ago, IamMe90 said:

Answering a question = defending concern trolling, alright. 

And yeah, disrupting peaceful protest by lighting shit on fire and putting people's lives in danger is totally a valid avenue of resistance. No one should ever say that this is a bad thing to do, or that it's counterproductive. 

Maybe read the posts I was replying to which suggested ignoring Milo and letting him talk without protest was the appropriate strategy for dealing with him? That wasn't simply "maybe don't riot", it was "don't protest or try to stop him at all".

And yeah, an exchange that goes

• conservative concern trolling says stopping muslims is about defending gays
• This gets called by saying muslims aren't throwing gays off rooftops in the US
• Third party claims Orlando qualifies to defend the concern troll as having a legitimate point

Is quite literally defending concern trolling.

[LongRider]

40 minutes ago, Kalbear said:

NEVER FORGET

The Bowling Green Massacre will forever be marked as a dark time in this nation. We endured, we healed, we persevered, and we rebuilt Bowling Green, wherever it may be. Today, take the time to talk with your loved ones about this dark day, learn the lessons that we should have never forgotten, and remind each other of what it is to be a true patriot and American. 
NEVER LET IT HAPPEN AGAIN. Or, uh, ever.

Link to video.

 

Jesus H Kreist,  she will tell any damn lie.   Dispicable.

[all swedes are racist]

yeah... like, y'all do know what milo events purpose actually was, right? he was going to use the platform to call out (by name) immigrant students.... ya know, not insignificant considering the current climate

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

12 minutes ago, karaddin said:

I wasn't saying you are concern trolling, but you're volunteering this as an example of Islamic terror in defense of concern trolling by the right wing. In context Pulse isn't remotely what is being talked about and it belongs in the list of dysfunctional male violence in the US as much (I'd argue much much more) as Islamic terror, the latter is just the figleaf that he decided to sprinkle on top.

On the second bit, feel free to continue claiming "it helps their cause" but you're really offering no proof and when every single avenue of fucking resistance continues to be told "don't do this, you're helping them! Don't do that, you're helping them!" it kinda leads to feeling like this.

I don't think the act fits neatly into one box. It has a spurned lover aspect to it for sure. It has a self-hate aspect. It also has a Islamic component. I agree that it can be seen from many angles, but to downplay one aspect in the interests of political correctness is not intelligent. It's there. We should recognize it. 

 I'm not saying protest is bad in a general sense. I'm saying in this instance it was detrimental to the cause of the protesters. The fucking resistance is going to have to get better at picking its' battles. That's all I'm saying.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

11 minutes ago, chairman lmao said:

yeah... like, y'all do know what milo events purpose actually was, right? he was going to use the platform to call out (by name) immigrant students.... ya know, not insignificant considering the current climate

That is an extremely shitty thing to do, and given what is going on not insignificant. I hadn't heard that this was on his agenda. That said, this is fucking Berkeley were talking about. I'm not sure what sort of response outside of boos and rotten eggs he thinks that sort of presentation would receive here. 

[karaddin]

19 minutes ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I don't think the act fits neatly into one box. It has a spurned lover aspect to it for sure. It has a self-hate aspect. It also has a Islamic component. I agree that it can be seen from many angles, but to downplay one aspect in the interests of political correctness is not intelligent. It's there. We should recognize it. 

 I'm not saying protest is bad in a general sense. I'm saying in this instance it was detrimental to the cause of the protesters. The fucking resistance is going to have to get better at picking its' battles. That's all I'm saying.

Regardless of what weight you want to put on the religious component, it is completely and utterly different to ISIS as an organisation executing gay people in the middle east, and to put it forward in the context you did to defend the shit that other poster was spouting is just wrong. You know the restriction of muslim immigration has absofuckinglutely nothing to do with protecting gay people, you know the GOP themselves want to oppress gay people, so why feel the need to make that point when that's what the poster is saying? It's bullshit, it doesn't need pedantic defending.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

 It was a factual response to the question Mexal asked. Not a defense of what anyone else was posting. Agree with everything else you posted.