Happy Ent Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Dr. Pepper said: It's obvious that he is. Walks like a nazi, talks like a nazi, accessorizes like a nazi. Are we still talking about Milo? Somebody call the Star Wars franchise and immediately redesign the look-and-feel of the Empire to be more fabulous! I’d binge-watch Queer Eye for the Sith Guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 The leaks coming out of the Trump White House right now are totally bananas https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/02/02/the-leaks-coming-out-of-the-trump-white-house-right-now-are-totally-bananas/?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_fix-leaks-1055pm%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.f258baae9439 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
butterbumps! Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 2 hours ago, Altherion said: Have you ever studied what Nazism actually was or are you just using it as a general insult? Here's the Wikipedia page on Nazism and here is the one on Yiannopoulos. They have almost nothing in common and had he lived among Nazis, they would undoubtedly have had him shot for more than one reason. He is provocative, offensive and often simply mean, but that does not make him a Nazi and calling him that devalues the word (he is already exploiting the latter). I don't want to speak for Dr P, but my impression is that she's not using the term as an "insult," but rather remarking on his racial/ religious scapegoating and defamation, especially his white supremacist messaging, however "insincere" and simply performative it may be. I don't disagree that the term "Nazi" isn't a perfect fit for him, though I do want to emphasize that he's fully allied with Nazis and white supremacists. They work in concert, and mutually reinforce each other. How would you describe him? "Provocative, offensive and mean" don't really capture his full toxicity, his co-opting fashy, supremacist language and messaging, and his alignment with white supremacists and Nazis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The guy from the Vale Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Just now, butterbumps! said: I don't want to speak for Dr P, but my impression is that she's not using the term as an "insult," but rather remarking on his racial/ religious scapegoating and defamation, especially his white supremacist messaging, however "insincere" and simply performative it may be. I don't disagree that the term "Nazi" isn't a perfect fit for him, though I do want to emphasize that he's fully allied with Nazis and white supremacists. They work in concert, and mutually reinforce each other. How would you describe him? "Provocative, offensive and mean" don't really capture his full toxicity, his co-opting fashy, supremacist language and messaging, and his alignment with white supremacists and Nazis. "Fascist" seems to work fine for me. When in doubt, go through Umberto Eco's checklist and see for yourself where Milo, Bannon or Trump fall on the spectrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Sources: The Trump Administration Is Readying New Sanctions After Iran Test-Fired a Missile http://time.com/4659162/trump-us-iran-sanctions-missile/?xid=homepage A Billionaire Resistance Targets President Trump from the Right http://time.com/4657648/charles-koch-donald-trump/?xid=homepage&pcd=hp-magmod Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Altherion said: It's nice to have friends in high places: This guy is a pretty good propagandist Again, no, he's not. He just has 'friends' in high places. That's a whole different thing. As for Nazis, listen, if you're arguing about what flavour of Nazi someone is (white supremacist or white nationalist?) or suggesting that unless someone subscribes to the whole set of prejudices and ideologies it's offensive to use the term to describe them, you're engaging in a dangerous game. Intentionally or not, you're trying to define the problem out of existence, implicitly writing it off. If you have the idea that every single Nazi in WWII was fully signed up to the entire creed, you are wrong. That's not how it worked then and it's not how it works now. If you don't view fellow-travelers as being as dangerous as actual, 100%-signed-up self-identifying neo-Nazis, you're wrong too. Most of all: you do not have the luxury of debating the technical definition of Nazism right now. Focus on opposing the other side, not arguing about what they should or shouldn't be called. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 My problem with throwing "Nazi" and "fascist" around is that there is hardly any stronger vocab possible. If the current administration or a smug provocateur like Yiannopoulos are Nazis, which language would one use if a real dictator arose or if people started to round up "n***ers" and lynch them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einheri Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 8 minutes ago, Jo498 said: My problem with throwing "Nazi" and "fascist" around is that there is hardly any stronger vocab possible. If the current administration or a smug provocateur like Yiannopoulos are Nazis, which language would one use if a real dictator arose or if people started to round up "n***ers" and lynch them? Übernazis, Ultranazis, Commie-Nazis...? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I'd use the term "Far-Right" in reference to Yiannopoulos. It's sufficiently loose, while getting the meaning across. Honestly, quibbling about precise terminology is pretty low on the list of things to worry about right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaircat Meow Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 4 hours ago, Jo498 said: My problem with throwing "Nazi" and "fascist" around is that there is hardly any stronger vocab possible. If the current administration or a smug provocateur like Yiannopoulos are Nazis, which language would one use if a real dictator arose or if people started to round up "n***ers" and lynch them? Oh, I think that's exactly the point, not a problem, from their point of view. The actual problem is that the claims are just false. On no normal definition of Nazi or white supremacist do we have reason to think someone like Steve Bannon or Milo is a Nazi or a white supremacist. Obviously, if you're an inveterate opponent of the current administration the wilder and more extreme claims about your foes you can make the better. I brought the issue up because I was genuinely unsure whether posters actually believed these wild claims, or they were using them as insults/mutual encouragement. Looks like a combination of both. edit: Umberto Eco's checklist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Will This Man Take Down Donald Trump? They’ve been squaring off for years. Now New York’s attorney general is emerging as the leader of the Trump resistance. http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2017/02/eric-schneiderman-donald-trump-new-york-214734 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Einheri Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 25 minutes ago, Chaircat Meow said: Oh, I think that's exactly the point, not a problem, from their point of view. The actual problem is that the claims are just false. On no normal definition of Nazi or white supremacist do we have reason to think someone like Steve Bannon or Milo is a Nazi or a white supremacist. Obviously, if you're inveterately opposed to the current administration the wilder and more extreme claims about your foes you can make the better. I don't know about these people, but in my mind, there are definitely certain criteria that has to be met before I start throwing around these terms (or any term for that matter). A fascist is not necessarily a racist, and a racist is not necessarily a Nazi. Not every American left winger is (or should be called) a liberal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Inigima Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, Jo498 said: My problem with throwing "Nazi" and "fascist" around is that there is hardly any stronger vocab possible. If the current administration or a smug provocateur like Yiannopoulos are Nazis, which language would one use if a real dictator arose or if people started to round up "n***ers" and lynch them? You don't understand. Those of us using those terms think that's exactly what they are. Under Donald Trump, we have taken real, serious steps towards a fully fascist government. Richard Spencer is literally a Nazi -- maybe he doesn't self-describe that way, but he doesn't like black people, Jews, and so on, and wants to "dispose of" them (his words). It's descriptive fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 2 minutes ago, Inigima said: You don't understand. Those of us using those terms think that's exactly what they are. Under Donald Trump, we have taken real, serious steps towards a fully fascist government. Richard Spencer is literally a Nazi -- maybe he doesn't self-describe that way, but he doesn't like black people, Jews, and so on, and wants to "dispose of" them (his words). It's descriptive fact. Spencer is a Neo-Nazi then. "Literal" Nazis are at least 85 years old. I apparently missed that Spencer has been appointed to an important position in the Trump administration, so what is the point of mentioning him? In France there has been a state of emergency since November 2015 and it was decided that it should last until July 2017. A prolonged state of emergency has often been the first step towards totalitarianism/fascism. I have no problem with pointing out that such a prolonged SoE can be a problem. But is it sensible to call the current French goverment "fascist"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Silicon Valley leaders organizing against Trump http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/silicon-valley-against-trump-234579 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mormont Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, mormont said: Most of all: you do not have the luxury of debating the technical definition of Nazism right now. Focus on opposing the other side, not arguing about what they should or shouldn't be called. Predictably, followed by a number of posts arguing about exactly that. Tell you what: how about we let the historians argue about it later? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rippounet Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Talking about nazi stuff... So the trend of making videos "America first - <my country> second" is spreading. After the Netherlands, we now have Germany, Belgium, Switzerland, Denmark and Portugal. http://dutchreview.com/news/international-news/america-first-now-every-country-wants-second/ The German one is quite good: /watch?v=WcH9eWBs9fw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martell Spy Posted February 3, 2017 Author Share Posted February 3, 2017 Trump Adviser Stephen Miller: ‘Hard to Envision Smoother Rollout’ of Immigration Order http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/02/trump-adviser-no-regrets-on-immigration-order-roll-out.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Werthead Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 9 hours ago, OldGimletEye said: Is it possible the Republican Party just charged a bit too hardly here, without doing any proper recon, and now find themselves in one big fuckin fire sac? And perhaps their escape route can be utterly cut off? Yes. The Republicans have really self-immolated themselves here. Nixon put forwards a health care reform plan in 1970 (and again in 1974) that served as the basis for Republican health policy for several decades. Mitt Romney based his 2006 plan on that, which Obama basically borrowed for the ACA. Except when Obama stole the plan it mysteriously and quite inexplicably transformed into overnight from a sound conservative plan into a liberal plot to murder everyone and it had to be destroyed like it was the union of an unholy alliance between Stalin and Megatron. So the Republicans have this issue where their default healthcare position (or at least one of the more credible ones) for the previous 40 years was hijacked by the Democrats and they refuse to take ownership of it again. I don't know why, under current trends they could just withdraw the ACA, re-impose it six weeks later labelled "Trumpcare" or "Republican Jesus Aid" with no changes whatsoever and their base will lap it up. Quote Trump’s Enemies Within The president has awakened the slumbering beast that felled presidents before him: the federal bureaucracy. Trump is clearly planning to build his own bureaucracy. Previous presidents were limited by their own respect for that bureaucracy, or their limitations in not being able to work without them due to extenuating circumstances (Nixon couldn't start fucking around with the military, intelligence and security services at the height of the Cold War and the Vietnam War, for example). From Day 1 Trump and his coterie are clearly set on rebuilding that bureaucracy from scratch if necessary. I would not put much stock in the civil service being able to restrain Trump in any way, shape or form when they themselves are being marginalised. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Pepper Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 6 hours ago, Altherion said: Have you ever studied what Nazism actually was or are you just using it as a general insult? Here's the Wikipedia page on Nazism and here is the one on Yiannopoulos. They have almost nothing in common and had he lived among Nazis, they would undoubtedly have had him shot for more than one reason. He is provocative, offensive and often simply mean, but that does not make him a Nazi and calling him that devalues the word (he is already exploiting the latter). I feel like we've had this conversation before, about how the meanings of things evolve over time, how ideologies evolve over time. Is it that you're one of those unable to grasp the concept of 'evolve'? Maybe you'd prefer the word 'change'. Fine, today's nazism isn't exactly the same as yesterday's nazism. It's evolved changed. Whether or not Hilter's nazis would have killed Milo doesn't really matter. People work against their own interests all the time (see most Trump and GOP voters). Sometimes women are the worst misogynists, sometimes blacks are the most anti-black, and sometimes gay men who date black men are part of the nazi crowd. By the way, by his own admission he hates being gay, he's anti-gay, he would have welcomed what the nazi's did to gay men. But here's my major objection. Even if you prefer not to use the word nazi, you're still guilty of minimizing what he does. He isn't simply offensive, provocative and mean. He whips his target audience into a frenzy, then he directs them towards targets, those targets being often members of vulnerable populations. He's not just telling people that Bey is fat. He's telling people that Bey is scum and not really human and that Bey is dangerous and is coming to take all they hold dear and wants to even murder their little children so Bey needs to be stopped. This isn't just offensive, it's not just mean. It's extremely dangerous. Minimizing what he and his ilk do and trying to paint him as a sympathetic figure is extremely dangerous. For one, people end up literally hurt and dead. For another, they end up in the fucking white house and everyone acts like it's totally normal. I'm calling a duck what a fucking duck is, don't care about hurting his little feelings (or yours, for that matter). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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