US Politics: Papers, Please

[OldGimletEye]

 

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

And you can still combat this guy without giving him the sort of press he wants. You send a reporter from the campus newspaper to tape all those empty seats. You tape his most outrageous statements and the ridiculous antics of his crowd. That's how you fight this guy. Allow him to speak. He buries himself in his own shit.

You know, when it comes to this thing with Milo, Mello, or Meathead, or whatever in the hell his name is, my sense of these things is pretty much informed by what my mother told me when I was very young: Don't be the one to throw the first punch.

Now, if Meathhead, Meeelow, or  Mello, and  alt right goons want to start up a brawl, I would be game for that, cause Nazi butt whoopin would be a nice way to spend a Friday night.

But, I'm generally not a fan of destroying property and initiating and threatening violence. But. also, my sense is that you're right. This clown wants attention and these kinds things play right into his hands. This guy wants to play victim. Starting riots that break the law is playing right into his hands and it allows the alt right to feel like they are the "victims". I am don't want to give the nitwits the satisfaction.

It seems to me this guy is intentionally trying to bait lefties into doing something ill advised. I don't think we should fall for it. 

I mean if you can't even outsmart a conservative, you're fucked. LOL.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

I mean if you can't even outsmart a conservative, you're fucked. LOL.

I'm afraid that's exactly what's happening here. This guy is a hack, and he won last night. We have to be smarter than this.

[Swordfish]

45 minutes ago, Tywin et al. said:

I should have been more clear, this was a reference to what you were disputing with Mex. You were disputing that the number of bomb threats might not be an increase without actually having any information to back it up.

 

 

Which is completely reasonable and correct.  Do you disagree that assuming a rise in something with a single data point is problematic?

 

Quote

I can't find any numbers for 2016, but I was able to find some for 2015:

http://www.adl.org/press-center/press-releases/anti-semitism-usa/2015-audit-anti-semitic-incidents.html?referrer=https://www.google.com/#.WJOzxFMrJpgI would categorize a bomb threat as being included in the "Harassment, Threats and Events" section. The average incidents per month in 2015 were 42, and that includes a lot more then just bomb threats. It's far from definitive, but it does paint a picture that it's quite likely that there has been an increase in antisemitism, and that that rise occurred during a period in which a major political figure was espousing white nationalism. 

 

I doubt there has been a rise in antisemitism.  It's possible there has been a rise in incidents of antisemitic acts (ETA: Since the election of Trump, which was Mexals point), but I'm not prepared to make that jump without data.  What would be the point?

 

Quote

I didn't say that we did, but it's not an unfair assumption. Anti-Muslim sentiment is on the rise, a mosque burns down, the police say they know the cause, but decide they're not ready to release it.

 

Assumptions are assumptions.  Never the less, until we know the cause, it's inaccurate to say those mosques 'were burned down'.

 

Quote

Common sense would indicate that if wasn't believed to be arson, they would release the cause to relax people's fears. 

Uh.  No.  confirmation bias would indicate that.  Common sense has no way of determining what the likely reason is behind why they have not yet released the cause.  it is, after all, still an open investigation.

Common sense is also what leads people to believe that since it's snowing at their house, global warming doesn't exist. So... there's that.

 

[Commodore]

1 hour ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

No embedded videos was the policy I thought.

didn't know, removed

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

4 minutes ago, Commodore said:

didn't know, removed

Not meaning to single you out. I've had numerous posts deleted for that over the past couple of days. It was news to me as well.

[mormont]

3 hours ago, Swordfish said:

I'm also sort of fascinated by the lefts obsession with the alt right in general, given their mostly minuscule numbers, and overall political insignificance, Bannon or no Bannon.

People tend to be, for obscure historical reasons, quite wary of Nazis taking political power. In any numbers. So they do tend to pay attention.

If a senior White House adviser is politically insignificant in your book, I do have to wonder who would be a significant figure.

1 hour ago, Commodore said:

I have never heard a Milo speech, but whenever I hear him described, he's rarely quoted.

He's not very quotable.

[Swordfish]

Just now, mormont said:

People tend to be, for obscure historical reasons, quite wary of Nazis taking political power. In any numbers. So they do tend to pay attention.

If a senior White House adviser is politically insignificant in your book, I do have to wonder who would be a significant figure.

 

Has Bannon self identified as a member of the alt right?

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, mormont said:

He's not very quotable.

He's not. 95% of his shtick is "I'm gay and alt-right! Wrap your heads around that, libtards!" He knows one song and it's not very good. 

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

He's not. 95% of his shtick is "I'm gay and alt-right! Wrap your heads around that, libtards!" He knows one song and it's not very good. 

Not at all palatable, for sure.

'Good' is a relative term.  He seems to be accomplishing what he's trying to do, and doing it fairly well.

 

I thought this was a fairly interesting read about him:

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2016-america-divided/milo-yiannopoulos/

 

 

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

Not at all palatable, for sure.

'Good' is a relative term.  He seems to be accomplishing what he's trying to do, and doing it fairly well.

 I have to credit that to his targets mostly. I realize this is subjective, but he doesn't strike me as a compelling speaker or writer. Put simply, he strikes me as a hack who has hit on one successful tactic that he repeats over and over again. Outside of the reaction he inspires from thin-skinned folks, he is entirely unremarkable.  

[Swordfish]

Just now, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

 I have to credit that to his targets mostly. I realize this is subjective, but he doesn't strike me as a compelling speaker or writer. Put simply, he strikes me as a hack who has hit on one successful tactic that he repeats over and over again. Outside of the reaction he inspires from thin-skinned folks, he is entirely unremarkable.  

Sure.  But that's pretty much his stated goal. 

[Rippounet]

4 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Has Bannon self identified as a member of the alt right?

He hasn't needed to in order to make neo-fascism significant. Which is, in itself, even more worrying than if he had.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

2 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Sure.  But that's pretty much his stated goal. 

I'm not inclined to give him much in the way of credit for that. Trolling is easy. If he did it with some measure of creativity or panache that would be different.

[Swordfish]

1 minute ago, Manhole Eunuchsbane said:

I'm not inclined to give him much in the way of credit for that. Trolling is easy. If he did it with some measure of creativity or panache that would be different.

It's like the old saying...  If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.  he's the spiteful head on the troll dragon of the alt right for a reason.  

I don't claim to necessarily understand it, but it's hard to deny he's good at it.

Cliche trigger warning #2:  You cannot argue with success.

[mormont]

15 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

Has Bannon self identified as a member of the alt right?

Why would that matter?

1 minute ago, Swordfish said:

It's like the old saying...  If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it. 

Have you been on social media lately? Everyone is doing it. Milo just has better media connections.

[Rippounet]

A funny anecdote in a sick sad world: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/feb/02/lying-sign-nigel-farage-european-parliament-mep?CMP=fb_gu
 

Quote

 

When people speak the truth – that immigration has been massively important in contributing not just to our societies but to the health of our economy and public services – they are immediately dismissed as “metropolitan elites”, people who do not understand the way of the world. This idea is a dangerous misrepresentation.

When you start using lies to construct so-called solutions to the actual problems people face day in and out, you end up building an entire machinery of deceit. And so Trump’s travel ban becomes “defeating terrorism” and Theresa May gets away with pretending we can have a successful Brexit by ending free movement without suffering any loss to our economy.

[...]

No jobs will be created, no industries saved, no community enhanced by scapegoating immigrants for our problems. It’s time to call out those whose diet of hate, division and suspicion will create nothing but misery and poverty. It’s time to stop the nuanced language and call out lies where we see them.

 

I can't say whether the author is correct, but debating the economic consequences (whatever they are) of immigration before closing borders would certainly be reasonable.

[Chaircat Meow]

48 minutes ago, Tijgy said:

Who cares what Verhofstadt says?  http://www.socialistsanddemocrats.eu/newsroom/sd-group-verhofstadt-s-new-political-somersault-grillo-berlusconi-one-week Wondering he actually asked his group if they do agree with that standpoint? Likely not.

Haha, I just saw he was named the head-negotiator in the name of the European Parliament during the Brexit Negotiations. O my god. We are doomed... Why do the EU always have the tendency to give all those Belgian premiers who used to mean something but not any longer in Belgian politics some high post? 

Not sure why I felt the need to include Verhofstadt in my post tbh, given the letter was from the EPP. He can get his point of view across, I guess. He will be one of the cheerleaders for a unified European response to Trump as well, given that there is nothing that could happen that he would not take as a sign of the need for further integration.

[Manhole Eunuchsbane]

9 minutes ago, Swordfish said:

It's like the old saying...  If it were that easy, everyone would be doing it.  he's the spiteful head on the troll dragon of the alt right for a reason.  

I don't claim to necessarily understand it, but it's hard to deny he's good at it.

Cliche trigger warning #2:  You cannot argue with success.

Eh, he's insulated somewhat by his sexuality. As far as I can tell, it's a character he plays. You can argue with success. See Nickelback or The Chainsmokers or Larry the Cable Guy. It's more like there's a sucker born every minute.

[Werthead]

Meanwhile, in more newsworthy news, the civilian death count from the US raid in Yemen is provisionally listed as 23, with 10 children killed. No-one's weeping for the senior Al-Qaeda commanders killed in this operation, but that seems like quite a high level of civilian casualties incurred.

Interesting to see if this was a balls-up or if the way forward for Trump is that he'll authorise operations with a high likelihood of collateral damage and casualties.

Meanwhile, a critic of Putin's has been allegedly poisoned for a second time.

The boss of Uber has quit Trump's advisory board after his company was boycotted. There's pressure on Musk to do the same, but I actually think it might be useful to have someone so keen on renewable energy and pushing the business possibilities of that on Trump on a regular basis. Trump may not buy the ecological argument but if Musk can show how much money can be made out of the sector, that may get Trump's interest.

[Altherion]

47 minutes ago, Mlle. Zabzie said:

Out of curiosity, who do you think should pay for the additional security?  That is, I think that Universities should provide space for all view points, but at some point, if the University is aware that it cannot provide adequate security without significant cost or expense, does it then become incumbent upon the club issuing the invitation to pay out of pocket for the security or tell the person that they cannot attend?  That is, I cherish our ability to express our view points, however, I don't think that a University needs to pay millions of dollars for security and think that they should be well within their rights to ask the club to find an alternative (e.g., video conference) that doesn't require a small armed force to make it happen.

Whoever claims to be in control of the region -- either the university or the municipality or, if they know they can't handle it, then the state. This is a crucial part of the social contract: the monopoly on violence must protect all lawful activity from violence. If it fails to do that, then sooner or later people will start protecting themselves. In this example, one of these conservative speakers will bring along some well-armed friends who, unlike the police, really want to escalate the situation. This has happened before in other countries and nobody wants to see it here.