Is the Tarly-Mooton marriage a foolish one?

[TheYellowAppleFossoway]

I have begun to wonder what the practical purpose was for Randyll Tarly marrying Dickon to Eleanor Mooton. I get that Tarly has taken over Maidenpool during the war, but keeping a lasting connection between the houses seems pointless. Dickon is the heir to Horn Hill, and as such will be setting up shop there when he comes into power. House Mooton is not only weak in Tarly's eyes, but they are too far away to give much aide in times of distress. There is also very little political capital in being connected to Mooton. Perhaps Randyll is just the ideal soldier and not a very good game player, and he just used the marriage to cement his conquering of that area to make himself feel cool. I am just surprised that Tarly wouldn't hold out for Dickon to marry a more local and prosperous family, especially give Dickon's younger age.

 

Thoughts? 

[sweetsunray]

What if Tarly is a "friend in the Reach"? If so it might be interesting to have a marriage link to one of the port towns bordering the Crownlands. And well, House Mooton is not shabby in the sense that it's a large port town. MIght not be a city, but ports would tend to have a good revenue.

[Adam Yozza]

As sweetsunray pointed out, Tarly might be one the "friends in the Reach". If that's the case then he might well be setting up connections with other house's that might put their lot in with the Targ's. Mooton was a supporter of the Dragons in RR just like Tarly. He might be reestablishing those allegiance's in Aegon's name.

[The Fresh PtwP]

Maidenpool is a port, so straight up mula is probably a factor. Anyways two castles is always better than one.

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

 Anyways two castles is always better than one.

Lord Mooton has a son

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Adam Yozza said:

Mooton was a supporter of the Dragons in RR just like Tarly. He might be reestablishing those allegiance's in Aegon's name.

Exactly. Lord Mooton's brother was one of Rhaegar's best friends, died at the Battle fo the Bells. House Mooton were Targ loyalists. It would make sense for someone in the Reach who anticipates the return of a Targaryen to ensure alliances through marriage with Houses nearer to King's Landing, especially a port, where say a landing can be organized. Aegon didn't land in Maidenpool, but I do think this betrothal hints at Tarly being one of the friends in the Reach that Jon Con is counting on.

[Universal Sword Donor]

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly. Lord Mooton's brother was one of Rhaegar's best friends, died at the Battle fo the Bells. House Mooton were Targ loyalists. It would make sense for someone in the Reach who anticipates the return of a Targaryen to ensure alliances through marriage with Houses nearer to King's Landing, especially a port, where say a landing can be organized. Aegon didn't land in Maidenpool, but I do think this betrothal hints at Tarly being one of the friends in the Reach that Jon Con is counting on.

That's the best explanation I've seen. Always thought it was a bit weird. Rewarding a fellow loyalist, especially one close to KL in charge of a (normally) prosperous port isn't anything to sneeze at. Could possibly have been used as a safe landing spot for allied forces (eg sellswords, Dany's forces).

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

As the others have said, it could be down to "friends in the Reach" (whether Tarly actually had forewarning or not, I don't think he did, but he will be one) &/or the economic potential of Maidenpool. TWoIaF mentions that the River-kings of old denied the likes of Maidenpool, Stoney Sept, & Fairmarket city charters so that the Houses ruling them couldn't become over-powerful.

This also continued under the Targaryens with Lord Darklyn, influenced by his wife Serala who could see how economically backwards Westeros was with feudalism (like Volantis has a few, it's not a giant leap that some of the other Daughters may have their own "vassal" cities - & even if not, Myr & others gained certain freedoms, economics included, from Valyria) sought out more rights - perhaps a city charter - from Aerys. We know that Duskendale once had quite the monopoly on trade in Blackwater Bay & had the now Crownlands been more developed & stable, it certainly could've rivaled White Harbor & Gulltown in terms of wealth, power, & population; but just maybe even Lannisport as well. Of course the fortunes of Duskendale waned somewhat under the Targaryens & the rise of King's Landing, though there of course would've been some benefit from that as well. Hell, Hull & Spicetown combined did even more trade than KL (~100 years established & already the largest city in the realm) for a time, but not even the Velaryons had the leave to move from a town to a city.

Indeed, with Maidenpool itself, it wasn't connected to the Kingsroad with an arterial road (certainly not a major one anyway), but instead to KL via Duskendale - ensuring to a degree that its trade would be tied with KL & not more independent of it. Just look at the other kingdoms too & it's obvious imo that the development of cities (even large towns) was restricted there too:

• Barrowton never became the economic heart of the North it had the chance to be - existing population base, perhaps the best grazing & crop-growing lands (surely the largest anyway), proximate to the Ryswell horse-breeders, river access to the Sunset Sea. Even the relatively powerful & I'd imagine wealthy House Dustin of Barrow Hall, still only has wooden walls & square towers, instead of stone & round respectively. White Harbor grew into a city because of the Manderlys wealth, power, & experience they brought from the Reach, & the necessity to properly & permanently defend the White Knife, thus allowing the Starks to finally end the Worthless War by seeking peace with Sisterton & the Eyrie. Before Braavos' founding some centuries later, White Harbor wasn't a great deal situated better than what Barrowton was - the Iron Islands were generally far more progressive & trade-friendly under the Hoares of the time, & so that could open up opportunities also to Seagard & Lannisport, & even beyond.
• IIRC, we don't even know of any towns in the Vale! (Well, besides Sisterton). Gulltown was pre-existing to the Andal invasion & although Gerold Grafton would've been a "sage & clever ruler" (to see his House continuing ruling the port through such a transition), I think the rise of the town into the city would've had more to do with the tide of Andal migrations coming to the Vale, & then the Riverlands, via Gulltown. By the time the Arryns had consolidated their power in & over the Vale, they couldn't restrict Gulltown. And for the same reason anyway it was also beneficial for them to welcome their Andal cousins, but make sure they moved on to the Riverlands.
• A similar deal with the Westerlands - the urban & economic centres of Casterly Rock being Lannister controlled &/or founded. Kayce & Faircastle were already established by the time the Lannisters extended their kingdom there, but those two had been restricted from the chance of expanding with the Ironborn, but Casterly Rock made sure they didn't benefit too much from Lannister rule (House Prester's Feastfires being so close, & the Farmans having their naval power limited). As they expanded their territory eastwards with the Andal migrations, they could control the development of towns there too.
• Although more internally stable than most of the other Seven Kingdoms, the Stormlands had the perhaps the most unstable borders, & neither do they seem to have ever been as focused on trade as frankly parts of any of the other kingdoms.
• The Planky Town isn't as developed as it could be & indeed House Dalt, most likely to have control over the port (or at the very least potential to benefit greatly due to proximity & situation at the mouth of the Greenblood), are only landed knights. I don't think the Shadow "City" has the same potential, but nevertheless, it literally clings to Sunspear anyway.
• And finally the Reach ... Ashford, Bitterbridge, Brandybottom, Cobble Cover, Cuy, Dosk, Grassy Vale, Little Dosk, Lord Hewett's Town (interestingly, it's twice as "large" as Lordsport, which itself is "larger" than the hovels of Pebbleton - home of ~7000 people - so I'd have to imagine that LHT has a population of 10k at the absolute minimum), Nunny, Ryamsport, Starfish Harbor, Tumbleton, & Vinetown are all known towns in the Reach, some very prominent port or market towns. I'd have to imagine that the likes of the Oakhearts, Fossoways, Peakes (at least once, anyway), other Hightower vassals, Merryweathers, Rowans, Florents, other Shield Islands, Tyrells, & Tarlys have their own as well. And yet pre-established Oldtown is the only city in the Reach o.O ... I personally think that one of the reasons that the Manderlys were hunted out of the Reach is they began over-stepping their bounds with Dunstonbury (almost certainly towards the mouth of the Mander, west of Starpike, north-west of Horn Hill, south-west of Highgarden, & north-west of Brightwater Keep/Honeyholt), starting to develop it into a city during the reign of the weak Perceon III, giving Lorimar Peake the casus belli to manipulate the king into driving out his House's eternal foes & claim their castle/s & lands.

Although House Tarly received some minor land increases after the Blackwater, Brightwater Keep was arguably "stolen" from both in terms of inheritance & reward; all whilst Tarly was in the field at Duskendale & then Maidenpool (that could only be draining his House's finances, because it's not like he & his men are plundering the town & area) where he couldn't argue to Tywin (in private) for Horn Hill's case over Garlan's. Meanwhile, the Fat Flower claims Tarly's triumphs, Ashford in particular, & is driving House Tyrell & the Reach to ruinous war with his over-ambitions. So Tarly has to make his own rewards elsewhere. If he were to become prominent in say a Targaryen regime independent of the Tyrells, he could perhaps push for more autonomy & economic freedoms for Maidenpool, among other things.

TL;DR: Possibly with a change from a Tyrell backed "Baratheon" regime to a "Targaryen" one, House Tarly could potentially benefit through House Mooton of Maidenpool.

1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

Lord Mooton has a son

He actually has at least two, & mayhaps they all would've gone "hunting" with Randyll eventually (if it weren't for the shitstorms in ADoS to come) ...

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Lord Corlys Velaryon said:

He actually has at least two, & mayhaps they all would've gone "hunting" with Randyll eventually (if it weren't for the shitstorms in ADoS to come) ...

Tarly has only one heir. And with the distance between Horn Hill and Maidenpool it would be impossible to control both effectively. So, I don't think Tarly is actually after his son being Lord of Maidenpool and Horn Hill both. But the way the betrothal is presented it does not seem that Tarly intends for Mooton's daughter and his son's bride-to-be to remain at Maidenpool for years and years until she has flowered. I would say he means to take her to Horn Hill soon. This gives him a hostage essentially to ensure her father, who's a coward, will do exactly what Tarly wants him to do.

[Lion of the West]

As mentioned Tarly could have a political idea for it, or he just thinks that his heir will need to marry someone and House Mooton is a perfectly respectable House and if anything would happen to Lord Motoon's son during the war, ans things for example happened to Darry, Whent etc. then Dickon will have a claim to press on Maidenpool.

[Lord Corlys Velaryon]

5 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tarly has only one heir. And with the distance between Horn Hill and Maidenpool it would be impossible to control both effectively. So, I don't think Tarly is actually after his son being Lord of Maidenpool and Horn Hill both. But the way the betrothal is presented it does not seem that Tarly intends for Mooton's daughter and his son's bride-to-be to remain at Maidenpool for years and years until she has flowered. I would say he means to take her to Horn Hill soon. This gives him a hostage essentially to ensure her father, who's a coward, will do exactly what Tarly wants him to do.

Good points, particularly with Eleanor as a potential hostage. Maidenpool could still pass to a younger son or daughter of her & Dickon eventually, though. And Randyll & Melissa, still have three daughters besides, with Talla at least of a marriageable age. A younger child of Dickon & Eleanor could be married to a female Tarly-line cousin to consolidate a claim even more. And even with patriarchal & misogynistic as fuck Randyll, isn't by no means impossible for Talla or one of her sisters to not only inherit Horn Hill, but still keep it under the Tarly name (Lady Oakheart, Lady Waynwood, Lady Mormont, Lady Stokeworth, Lady Whent - there's the possibility that there are Tarly cousins we don't know about yet, etc). Indeed, unless they get back to the Reach (& even then, Euron's fuckery to come), Randyll & Dickon don't have the highest chances of living past the end of the series.

[Lost Melnibonean]

20 hours ago, TheYellowAppleFossoway said:

I have begun to wonder what the practical purpose was for Randyll Tarly marrying Dickon to Eleanor Mooton. I get that Tarly has taken over Maidenpool during the war, but keeping a lasting connection between the houses seems pointless. Dickon is the heir to Horn Hill, and as such will be setting up shop there when he comes into power. House Mooton is not only weak in Tarly's eyes, but they are too far away to give much aide in times of distress. There is also very little political capital in being connected to Mooton. Perhaps Randyll is just the ideal soldier and not a very good game player, and he just used the marriage to cement his conquering of that area to make himself feel cool. I am just surprised that Tarly wouldn't hold out for Dickon to marry a more local and prosperous family, especially give Dickon's younger age.

 

Thoughts? 

And the money kept rolling in from every side
[Tarly's greedy] hands reached out and they reached wide

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Lord Mooton has a son

I had assumed he only had the daughter. Where is the son noted? (Not doubting just curious.)

[Lost Melnibonean]

16 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Exactly. Lord Mooton's brother was one of Rhaegar's best friends, died at the Battle fo the Bells. House Mooton were Targ loyalists. It would make sense for someone in the Reach who anticipates the return of a Targaryen to ensure alliances through marriage with Houses nearer to King's Landing, especially a port, where say a landing can be organized. Aegon didn't land in Maidenpool, but I do think this betrothal hints at Tarly being one of the friends in the Reach that Jon Con is counting on.

Works for me. 

[Lost Melnibonean]

14 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

Tarly has only one heir. And with the distance between Horn Hill and Maidenpool it would be impossible to control both effectively. So, I don't think Tarly is actually after his son being Lord of Maidenpool and Horn Hill both. But the way the betrothal is presented it does not seem that Tarly intends for Mooton's daughter and his son's bride-to-be to remain at Maidenpool for years and years until she has flowered. I would say he means to take her to Horn Hill soon. This gives him a hostage essentially to ensure her father, who's a coward, will do exactly what Tarly wants him to do.

I agree with most of what you say, but on the issue of two or more castles, you appoint a cousin or an in law as castellan and collect the income. But if Mooton has sons...

[sweetsunray]

5 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I had assumed he only had the daughter. Where is the son noted? (Not doubting just curious.)

aCoK, Arya III

Quote

The man in the green cloak said, "I heard how this hellbitch walked into a village one day . . . a market day, people everywhere, and she walks in bold as you please and tears a baby from his mother's arms. When the tale reached Lord Mooton, him and his sons swore they'd put an end to her. They tracked her to her lair with a pack of wolfhounds, and barely escaped with their skins. Not one of those dogs came back, not one."

Since the say Lord Mooton and "sons" (plural) he has "at least 2 sons".

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 minute ago, sweetsunray said:

aCoK, Arya III

Since the say Lord Mooton and "sons" (plural) he has "at least 2 sons".

As of Clash... Do we know how old they are? Are they listed in the Appendices to the subsequent books? 

[sweetsunray]

17 minutes ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

As of Clash... Do we know how old they are? Are they listed in the Appendices to the subsequent books? 

Nope, we know nothing about them. But if they went hunting a pack of wolves that are bold enough to walk onto a market and snatch a baby all the way to their lair, I'd say they were at least 8-9 years old in Clash. Lord Mooton is also seen as a coward (kind of weird if he went hunting that pack of wolves to the lair), so I'm thinking +10 years old. His brother was Rhaegar's friend so likely around Ned and Robert's age at the time of RR. So, Lord Mooton's boys are likely about the age of Jon or slightly younger.

Nope, the appendixes only list William Mooton as a bannerman to House Tully of the RL. That includes aFfC. The same appendix doesn't mention his daughter either, nor does it mention Dickon with Randyl Tarly, bannerman of the Tyrells.

ETA: Appendix of aDwD lists Eleanor with William Mooton as bannerman of House Tully, and says "his daughter and heir, 13, m. Dickon Tarly". It appears the "at least 2 sons" have died. Knowing what happend to the last heir of Darry, it's perhaps less surprising that William Mooton remained behind his walls.

[Lost Melnibonean]

13 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Nope, we know nothing about them. But if they went hunting a pack of wolves that are bold enough to walk onto a market and snatch a baby all the way to their lair, I'd say they were at least 8-9 years old in Clash. Lord Mooton is also seen as a coward (kind of weird if he went hunting that pack of wolves to the lair), so I'm thinking +10 years old. His brother was Rhaegar's friend so likely around Ned and Robert's age at the time of RR. So, Lord Mooton's boys are likely about the age of Jon or slightly younger.

Nope, the appendixes only list William Mooton as a bannerman to House Tully of the RL. That includes aFfC. The same appendix doesn't mention his daughter either, nor does it mention Dickon with Randyl Tarly, bannerman of the Tyrells.

ETA: Appendix of aDwD lists Eleanor with William Mooton as bannerman of House Tully, and says "his daughter and heir, 13, m. Dickon Tarly". It appears the "at least 2 sons" have died. Knowing what happend to the last heir of Darry, it's perhaps less surprising that William Mooton remained behind his walls.

Sounds like the George has been tending his garden round Maidenpool. 

So, back to... And the money kept rolling in from every side
[Tarly's greedy] hands reached out and they reached wide

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, the Wiki should be updated to note the discrepancy. 

[Rhaenys_Targaryen]

1 hour ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

@Rhaenys_Targaryen, the Wiki should be updated to note the discrepancy. 

Done