A Mistake for Ser Ben Brown Plumm

[Black Dragons]

There is a prophecy that Dany will known three treasons  Once for Blood (Mirri), Once for Gold, (I think it Jorah) the third one for Love is going to be Daario.

Now Dany thinks that the blood is Mirri and one for Love is Jorah and the one for Gold is Ben Brown Plumm because he went on Yunkai's side. anyone else agreed?

[The Hoare]

Could be, but now he is on Dany's side again.

 

Perharps the treason for gold didn't happened yet.

[Lost Melnibonean]

Illyrio will betray her for blood. Tyrion will betray her for gold. Aegon will betray her for love. 

The George loves betrayal. From Petyr betraying The Ned to the Ides of Marsh. In The House of the Undying Ones, we were told that Daenerys would know three treasons, so these three treasons better be pretty big. My guess is they will happen at once or in rapid succession, Illyrio for blood, Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love, but whatever they are, they need to be real game changers.

And I think this foreshadows that they will lead to her death...

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It was queer how sometimes a child's innocent eyes can see things that grown men are blind to. Someday, when Sansa was grown, he would have to tell her how she had made it all come clear for him. He's not the least bit like that old drunken king, she had declared, angry and unknowing, and the simple truth of it had twisted inside him, cold as death. This was the sword that killed Jon Arryn, Ned thought then, and it will kill Robert as well, a slower death but full as certain. Shattered legs may heal in time, but some betrayals fester and poison the soul.

Eddadrd XII, Game 45

[Davjos]

Illyrio betraying her for blood fits a certain Blackfyre-theory very well, as you are obviously aware @Lost Melnibonean. 

I always expected Tyrion to betray her for blood, eventually chosing Jaime over Dany. But this might not be a big enough betrayel for the HotU to mention. 

How do you expect Aegon to betray her for love btw? 

[dariopatke]

I don't think Ben betrayed her for gold. He betrayed her because he thiught she will lose. 

[rotting sea cow]

12 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

There is a prophecy that Dany will know three treasons  Once for Blood (Mirri), Once for Gold, (I think it Jorah) the third one for Love is going to be Daario.

Now Dany thinks that the blood is Mirri and one for Love is Jorah and the one for Gold is Ben Brown Plumm because he went on Yunkai's side. anyone else agreed?

I seriously doubt that Ben is important enough to be prophesied

The things about the treasons makes Dany really paranoid, but the wording of the prophesy is ambiguous.

Will Dany experience three treasons?

Or

Will Dany learn about three treasons?

As I see it, these three mounts, three treasons and three fires are somehow connected to the bride of fire, daughter of death and slayer of lies. So the treasons might be related to events that shaped her life.

[Danelle]

The problem with  the HOTU prophecy is that it so generic and by the events of the 5th book Daenerys has so many enemies, that the prophecy could refer to anyone.

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"three fires must you light... one for life and one for death and one to love... three mounts must you ride... one to bed and one to dread and one to love... three treasons will you know... once for blood and once for gold and once for love..."

 

Dany has been betrayed several times by several people, but I think that the prophecy refers specifically to people who matter a lot to Dany. 

Since Mirri was very important to Dany, her rescue took place at a pivotal moment when Daenerys was beginning to use her influence over Drogo and she wanted to use her power for something good, it is logical to assume that she is the treason for blood.

Even Daenerys feels that way. After her visit to the HOTU, she thinks that Mirri betrayed her for bllod.

 

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The first traitor was surely Mirri Maz Duur, who had murdered Khal Drogo and their unborn son to avenge her people.  Could Pyat Pree and Xaro Xhoan Daxos be the second and the third? She did not think so. What Pyat did was not for gold, and Xaro had never truly loved her.

At the same time she rejects the possibility of Pyat Pree and Xaro as her potential traitors, exactly because they were never that close to her and their motives were different. Then again she was at the beginning of her journey.

At SOS, in the first chapter, Jorah reminds her of the prophecy and warns her against Illyrio.

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"His plans need not change. Magister Illyrio is a friend to House Targaryen, and wealthy . . ."

"He was not born wealthy. In the world as I have seen it, no man grows rich by kindness. The warlocks said the second treason would be for gold. What does Illyrio Mopatis love more than gold?"

"His skin." Across the cabin Drogon stirred restlessly, steam rising from his snout. "Mirri Maz Duur betrayed me. I burned her for it."

Then again Daenerys was never entirely confident of Illyrio's attitude, as evidenced from her thoughts of Illyrio's devotion to Viserys in GOT:

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"Illyrio is no fool," Viserys said. He was a gaunt young man with nervous hands and a feverish look in his pale lilac eyes. "The magister knows that I will not forget my friends when I come into my throne."

Dany said nothing. Magister Illyrio was a dealer in spices, gemstones, dragonbone, and other, less savory things. He had friends in all of the Nine Free Cities, it was said, and even beyond, in Vaes Dothrak and the fabled lands beside the Jade Sea. It was also said that he'd never had a friend he wouldn't cheerfully sell for the right price. Dany listened to the talk in the streets, and she heard these things, but she knew better than to question her brother when he wove his webs of dream. 

Daenerys herself feels that the treason will come from someone who hurt her directly, someone that she could trust with her life. And that person is none other than Jorah, who declares his love for her the moment she dismisses him.

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"He lied to me about his name. You sold my secrets to the men who killed my father and stole my brother's throne."

"I protected you. I fought for you. Killed for you."

Kissed me, she thought, betrayed me.

Jorah's betrayal is more bitter than Mirri's, perhaps because Mirri was unapologetic whereas Jorah tried to convince Daenerys of his loyalty to her.

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"Daenerys," he said, "I have loved you."

And there it was. Three treasons will you know. Once for blood and once for gold and once for love. "The gods do nothing without a purpose, they say. You did not die in battle, so it must be they still have some use for you. But I don't. I will not have you near me. You are banished, ser. Go back to your masters in King's Landing and collect your pardon, if you can. Or to Astapor. No doubt the butcher king needs knights."

But was Jorah's betrayal for love?

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His voice was thick with grief, and Dany was reluctant to press him any further, yet she had to know how it ended. "Did she die there?" she asked him gently.

"Only to me," he said. "In half a year my gold was gone, and I was obliged to take service as a sellsword. While I was fighting Braavosi on the Rhoyne, Lynesse moved into the manse of a merchant prince named Tregar Ormollen. They say she is his chief concubine now, and even his wife goes in fear of her."

Dany was horrified. "Do you hate her?"

"Almost as much as I love her," Ser Jorah answered. "Pray excuse me, my queen. I find I am very tired."

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"Ser Jorah is now in Pentos, anxious to earn a royal pardon that would allow him to return from exile," Robert explained. "Lord Varys makes good use of him."

"So the slaver has become a spy," Ned said with distaste. He handed the letter back. "I would rather he become a corpse."

 

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Ned looked at the eunuch coldly. "You would bring us the whisperings of a traitor half a world away, my lord. Perhaps Mormont is wrong. Perhaps he is lying."

"Ser Jorah would not dare deceive me," Varys said with a sly smile. "Rely on it, my lord. The princess is with child."

 

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That did not please the knight. "I took the Spider's coin, I'll not deny it, but I was never his creature. And my loyalties lie elsewhere now."

So it seems that Jorah only agreed to spy for Varys for the money he offerred him and for a chance to return home, perhaps with Lynesse, although this is unlikely since she appears to prefer life in Lys . He also confesses that he is currently devoted to Daenerys. It appears that gold was the motive behind his betrayal, not love and certainly not love for Daenerys. 

Daenerys also fears that Daario will betray her for another woman.

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"What if Daario has betrayed me and gone over to my enemies?" Three treasons will you know. "What if he met another woman, some princess of the Lhazarene?"

Later, when in DWD Quaithe appears to Daenerys, she reassures her that she remembers the prophecy.

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"I remember the Undying. Child of three, they called me. Three mounts they promised me, three fires, and three treasons. One for blood and one for gold and one for …

She never gets to utter the word love, because Missandei arrives and interrupts her. Is this a hint that she has already been betrayed for blood and gold but the third betrayal will take place in the future?

 

The prophecy gradually makes Daenerys slightly paranoid and begins suspecting her councilors.

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When Reznak and Skahaz appeared, she found herself looking at them askance, mindful of the three treasons. Beware the perfumed seneschal. She sniffed suspiciously at Reznak mo Reznak. I could command the Shavepate to arrest him and put him to the question. Would that forestall the prophecy? Or would some other betrayer take his place? Prophecies are treacherous, she reminded herself, and Reznak may be no more than he appears.

When finally Brown Ben betrays her, she is shocked.

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She remembered Ben's face the last time she had seen it. It was a warm face, a face I trusted. Dark skin and white hair, the broken nose, the wrinkles at the corners of his eyes. Even the dragons had been fond of old Brown Ben, who liked to boast that he had a drop of dragon blood himself. Three treasons will you know. Once for gold and once for blood and once for love. Was Plumm the third treason, or the second? And what did that make Ser Jorah, her gruff old bear? Would she never have a friend that she could trust? What good are prophecies if you cannot make sense of them? If I marry Hizdahr before the sun comes up, will all these armies melt away like morning dew and let me rule in peace?

The more power she gains the less able she gets to trust people and the interpretation of the prophecy becomes complicated.

1 hour ago, dariopatke said:

I don't think Ben betrayed her for gold. He betrayed her because he thiught she will lose. 

Precisely.

Ben had already told Dany about old sellswords and bold sellswords and how there aren't any bold, old sellswords. It was not about the money. It was about survival. For them.

Oddly by the end of DWD Daenerys still believes that Mirri betrayed her for blood, Jorah for love and Ben for gold. She thinks that she has deciphere the prophecy.

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Dany had once eaten a stallion's heart to give strength to her unborn son … but that had not saved Rhaego when the maegi murdered him in her womb. Three treasons shall you know. She was the first, Jorah was the second, Brown Ben Plumm the third. Was she done with betrayals?

 

 

46 minutes ago, rotting sea cow said:

 

As I see it, these three mounts, three treasons and three fires are somehow connected to the bride of fire, daughter of death and slayer of lies. So the treasons might be related to events that shaped her life.

I agree. In that case both Jorah and Mirri conspired against members of her family, not just herself.

Jorah informs her sworn enemy, Robert Baratheon of her nuptials and pregnancy.  

Mirri causes the deaths of her husband and child.

I believe that the third will also have an impact in her personal life.

 I cannot see Daario betraying Daenerys, he appears to be honest when it comes to his feelings for her. He loves her and he wants to protect her.

The person who might betray Daenerys for love  is Tyrion, but not for love of Daenerys.

Tyrion seems eager to meet Daenerys and her dragons and there is a possibility that the Aerys-Tywin dynamic will be repeated.

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"And how do you propose to serve her?"

"With my tongue." He licked his fingers, one by one. "I can tell Her Grace how my sweet sister thinks, if you call it thinking. I can tell her captains the best way to defeat my brother, Jaime, in battle. I know which lords are brave and which are craven, which are loyal and which are venal. I can deliver allies to her. And I know much and more of dragons, as your halfmaester will tell you. I'm amusing too, and I don't eat much. Consider me your own true imp."

He can indeed prove useful to Daenerys, due to his extremely vast knowledge but his feelings towards his brother are ambivalent. He wants revenge but he feels guilty. On the other hand Jaime Lannister is the last surviving of the Usurper's dogs. 

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"I shall kill the Usurper myself," he promised, who had never killed anyone, "as he killed my brother Rhaegar. And Lannister too, the Kingslayer, for what he did to my father."

Raised by Viserys, Daenerys feels no mercy for the enemies of her House and avenging her father just as Viserys intended to do, seems to be part of her plan.

But will Tyrion assist her or will he try to protect his brother?

[Lost Melnibonean]

8 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

Illyrio betraying her for blood fits a certain Blackfyre-theory very well, as you are obviously aware @Lost Melnibonean. 

I always expected Tyrion to betray her for blood, eventually chosing Jaime over Dany. But this might not be a big enough betrayel for the HotU to mention. 

How do you expect Aegon to betray her for love btw? 

I am assuming that Aegon will find himself hard pressed by Euron, but Daenerys save the day, like Tyrion foretold. They will wed and conceive a son. Arianne will still be around though. 

[Suzanna Stormborn]

19 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

Illyrio will betray her for blood. Tyrion will betray her for gold. Aegon will betray her for love. 

The George loves betrayal. From Petyr betraying The Ned to the Ides of Marsh. In The House of the Undying Ones, we were told that Daenerys would know three treasons, so these three treasons better be pretty big. My guess is they will happen at once or in rapid succession, Illyrio for blood, Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love, but whatever they are, they need to be real game changers.

And I think this foreshadows that they will lead to her death...

Eddadrd XII, Game 45

 

15 hours ago, Ethelarion said:

Illyrio betraying her for blood fits a certain Blackfyre-theory very well, as you are obviously aware @Lost Melnibonean. 

I always expected Tyrion to betray her for blood, eventually chosing Jaime over Dany. But this might not be a big enough betrayel for the HotU to mention. 

How do you expect Aegon to betray her for love btw? 

NO WAY!

Tyrion is not going to betray our girl!!  He is finally on the right path, and like we said before, Dany is hot so he wont betray her.

 

And yeah I would be interested to hear about Aegon betraying her for love........there has to be more than 2 books left.  IMO, agree with @Lost Melnibonean that none of the betrayals have happened yet, so The George has some serious story-telling to start in WoW.

[Lost Melnibonean]

35 minutes ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

 

NO WAY!

Tyrion is not going to betray our girl!!  He is finally on the right path, and like we said before, Dany is hot so he wont betray her.

 

And yeah I would be interested to hear about Aegon betraying her for love........there has to be more than 2 books left.  IMO, agree with @Lost Melnibonean that none of the betrayals have happened yet, so The George has some serious story-telling to start in WoW.

I think he can finish in two. I think there will only be a few more chapters after the Dance finally ends. 

[John Suburbs]

11 hours ago, rotting sea cow said:

I seriously doubt that Ben is important enough to be prophesied

The things about the treasons makes Dany really paranoid, but the wording of the prophesy is ambiguous.

Will Dany experience three treasons?

Or

Will Dany learn about three treasons?

As I see it, these three mounts, three treasons and three fires are somehow connected to the bride of fire, daughter of death and slayer of lies. So the treasons might be related to events that shaped her life.

The natural assumption is that Dany will be betrayed by three times, but the wording makes it equally possible that Dany herself with be the betrayer of others. Consider:

She betrayed Kraznys and the other Wise Masters of Astapor when they entered into an honest bargain with her and she set them and their city on fire;

She then betrayed the slaves and citizens of Astapor by leaving them to their fate;

She promised the Yunkai army they had three days to yield before she would attack, then slaughtered them in a surprise attack the next day;

She sent both Jorah and Selmy into the Meereenese sewers expecting them to die;

She flew off on Drogon and abandoned Meereen to its fate.

[Suzanna Stormborn]

3 hours ago, Lost Melnibonean said:

I think he can finish in two. I think there will only be a few more chapters after the Dance finally ends. 

But what do you think will happen with her and fAegon?  That he'll leave her for Arianne? 

3 hours ago, John Suburbs said:

The natural assumption is that Dany will be betrayed by three times, but the wording makes it equally possible that Dany herself with be the betrayer of others. Consider:

She betrayed Kraznys and the other Wise Masters of Astapor when they entered into an honest bargain with her and she set them and their city on fire;

She then betrayed the slaves and citizens of Astapor by leaving them to their fate;

She promised the Yunkai army they had three days to yield before she would attack, then slaughtered them in a surprise attack the next day;

She sent both Jorah and Selmy into the Meereenese sewers expecting them to die;

She flew off on Drogon and abandoned Meereen to its fate.

Ive seen this theory many times around here, I dont think it holds up or makes sense.  If the 'slaves of Astapor' or 'Kraznyz' were the ones to be betrayed, then they would have received the prophecy instead of her, also they would have POV's.  The wording and intensity of the prophecy makes it clear that it is her who will be betrayed.

[Lost Melnibonean]

1 hour ago, Suzanna Stormborn said:

But what do you think will happen with her and fAegon?  That he'll leave her for Arianne? 

Arianne is hot. I mean like smokin' hot. Aegon is gonna be enthralled by her wicked wiles. But he's gonna be compelled to wed Daenerys. Arianne will not be pleased. 

[Black Dragons]

On 2/3/2017 at 4:17 AM, dariopatke said:

I don't think Ben betrayed her for gold. He betrayed her because he thiught she will lose. 

So what do you that Yunkai's people or masters paid Brown Ben Plumm with?

[Black Dragons]

On 2/2/2017 at 7:57 PM, The Hoare said:

Could be, but now he is on Dany's side again.

 

Perharps the treason for gold didn't happened yet.

Tyrion is going try talk the Second Sons in trade side, but the treason already happen.

[Black Dragons]

On 2/2/2017 at 8:27 PM, Lost Melnibonean said:

Illyrio will betray her for blood. Tyrion will betray her for gold. Aegon will betray her for love. 

The George loves betrayal. From Petyr betraying The Ned to the Ides of Marsh. In The House of the Undying Ones, we were told that Daenerys would know three treasons, so these three treasons better be pretty big. My guess is they will happen at once or in rapid succession, Illyrio for blood, Tyrion for gold, and Aegon for love, but whatever they are, they need to be real game changers.

And I think this foreshadows that they will lead to her death...

Eddadrd XII, Game 45

Aegon don't know her how can he betray for love?

[Lost Melnibonean]

6 hours ago, Sophia [email protected] said:

Aegon don't know her how can he betray for love?

I am thinking Aegon and Daenerys will meet. 

[dariopatke]

On 2/4/2017 at 11:07 PM, Sophia [email protected] said:

So what do you that Yunkai's people or masters paid Brown Ben Plumm with?

Well, ofc they did pay him gold, but that was not primary reason why he left them. They did not come to him and offer him double salary, he chose to defect because he didn't see her cause as winning. It is likely that he made a few extra coins, but that was not primary reason of his defection.