Orphalesion Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 It's pretty clear that the worst combination of people possible had congregated at that point in time in Kings' Landing. We had a passive, chronically depressed soldier forced into a role that went way past his capacities and who had problems with self-destructive behavior. We had a potential psychopath who hated everything and everyone, most of all herself and who was in a toxic, incestuous relationship. All the while she has delusions of her own grandeur and cleverness. We had a shell-shocked teenager in a grown man's body who enabled the psychopath in their toxic incestuous relationship. We had an obvious sociopath obsessed with making everyone "pay" because the love of his youth spurned his advances. We had two guys (though not at the same time) who did their best to play "dad" to the depressed soldier and who enabled his self-destructive behavior while at least one of them secretly resented him. We had three brothers who couldn't stand the sight of one another, but were forced to work together on a daily basis. One of those was the chronically depressed soldier, while the other two had mental problems of their own (yes, I'd argue even the youngest one) We had a guy who secretly worked behind the scenes to make the whole situation worse so that his delusion of a "rightful king" can take over a destabilized throne. And a woman who's mind is so deteriorated that she is a mere shadow of her (already not very stable) former self and who is so obsessed with the sociopath that she would (quite literally) commit murder for him. All of them would have been problematic on their own, but fate and chance and ill-luck put them all in one place and turned the whole city into a powder keg. It's like the conglomeration of entitled, inept idiots that ruled Europe before World War One. Sooner or later something was going to start a chain reaction that would lead to destruction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 8 hours ago, devilish said: She isn't nothing. She's the daughter of a powerful Lord who was determined to do anything within his power to have her marry a King. Old Arryn portrayed Robert's marriage to her as necessary in a bid to consolidate power. Really? If Robert had set her aside and charged her with treason and incest, what exactly would that make her? I'm struggling to even imagine Tywin taking part with her after that, let alone going to war for her and Jaime. 5 hours ago, devilish said: If Robert was the cause then surely after his death everything went as smooth as ever. The new king (who was raised by the queen) would be a great king, the Tyrell and Lannister alliance would be as strong as ever, the bond within the Lannister family will grow stronger by the day, the extremists within the faith of the seven will never raise their ugly head etc. Because she is still misruling in "his" children's name, something he neglected to deal with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 36 minutes ago, Sigella said: Really? If Robert had set her aside and charged her with treason and incest, what exactly would that make her? I'm struggling to even imagine Tywin taking part with her after that, let alone going to war for her and Jaime. Because she is still misruling in "his" children's name, something he neglected to deal with. I am not saying that she's the center of the universe. All I am saying (and I insist on it) is that she isn't nothing. Cersei is the queen and the warden of the Westerlands daughter. Her father is the richest and possibly the most ruthless man in Westeros, with friends inside and outside KL. Robert's day to day activity included sleeping with a Lannister, drinking wine which was poured by a Lannister and walking around with an armed Lannister who could rip him in pieces in matter of seconds. If he's sick then he'll have to go to somebody whose on Lannister payroll to get cured. If the Lannisters wanted him dead then most probably he would end up dead If Robert accuses Cersei of such hideous crime then he'll better have ample proof. Such proof is easy in today's world thanks to DNA testing. Robert could make a show out of it by inviting Jerry Springer which would boost ratings. However it becomes very very difficult to prove in a medieval context. Ned's stupid 'proof' might have convinced the Northerner but it will be ridiculed in court for so many reasons a- hair colour has no scientific proof whatsoever. Tywin would demand maester Pycelle to give his professional opinion about Ned's so called scientific discovery. After all he's the expert. We all know how that would end. b- Ned hates the Lannisters. Surely the king cannot forget the fact that the Tully bitch had kidnapped the poor imp, dragging him to the Vale to die a horrible death.This so called discovery is yet another attempt to undermine them Best case scenario Robert would just bin it. Worse case scenario he decides to proceed with it, which would, most probably, be settled by a trial of combat. Can you imagine the oaf or old Selmy fighting against Jamie or Gregor? It would be a pathetic site. Robert could of course go full tyranic mode. The twins would end up arrested and executed without any sort of trial and would be followed by a number of arrests which include Lancel Lannister. But then, rumours would spread out. What if this is just a charade set by the king to bail out from his debt? The Tyrells and the iron bank won't like it. The Westerlands will seek blood and the Targ royalist might see this crisis as an opportunity to return, possibly with 40k Dothraki + the GC. Dorne would side with the Targs, the Vale will close doors and with Hoster dying in the Riverlands and Ned busy assembling an army which takes ages to assemble things can get messy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 2 hours ago, devilish said: I am not saying that she's the center of the universe. All I am saying (and I insist on it) is that she isn't nothing. Cersei is the queen and the warden of the Westerlands daughter. Her father is the richest and possibly the most ruthless man in Westeros, with friends inside and outside KL. Robert's day to day activity included sleeping with a Lannister, drinking wine which was poured by a Lannister and walking around with an armed Lannister who could rip him in pieces in matter of seconds. If he's sick then he'll have to go to somebody whose on Lannister payroll to get cured. If the Lannisters wanted him dead then most probably he would end up dead If Robert accuses Cersei of such hideous crime then he'll better have ample proof. Such proof is easy in today's world thanks to DNA testing. Robert could make a show out of it by inviting Jerry Springer which would boost ratings. However it becomes very very difficult to prove in a medieval context. Ned's stupid 'proof' might have convinced the Northerner but it will be ridiculed in court for so many reasons a- hair colour has no scientific proof whatsoever. Tywin would demand maester Pycelle to give his professional opinion about Ned's so called scientific discovery. After all he's the expert. We all know how that would end. b- Ned hates the Lannisters. Surely the king cannot forget the fact that the Tully bitch had kidnapped the poor imp, dragging him to the Vale to die a horrible death.This so called discovery is yet another attempt to undermine them Best case scenario Robert would just bin it. Worse case scenario he decides to proceed with it, which would, most probably, be settled by a trial of combat. Can you imagine the oaf or old Selmy fighting against Jamie or Gregor? It would be a pathetic site. Robert could of course go full tyranic mode. The twins would end up arrested and executed without any sort of trial and would be followed by a number of arrests which include Lancel Lannister. But then, rumours would spread out. What if this is just a charade set by the king to bail out from his debt? The Tyrells and the iron bank won't like it. The Westerlands will seek blood and the Targ royalist might see this crisis as an opportunity to return, possibly with 40k Dothraki + the GC. Dorne would side with the Targs, the Vale will close doors and with Hoster dying in the Riverlands and Ned busy assembling an army which takes ages to assemble things can get messy. You forget it doesn't have to hold up... It only has to convince Robert. To you think Robert will be concerned with rumors when he finds out he's been played like this? I don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 And the westerlands would not hold a candle against the royal forces as Ned concludes iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 14 hours ago, Orphalesion said: It's pretty clear that the worst combination of people possible had congregated at that point in time in Kings' Landing. We had a passive, chronically depressed soldier forced into a role that went way past his capacities and who had problems with self-destructive behavior. We had a potential psychopath who hated everything and everyone, most of all herself and who was in a toxic, incestuous relationship. All the while she has delusions of her own grandeur and cleverness. We had a shell-shocked teenager in a grown man's body who enabled the psychopath in their toxic incestuous relationship. We had an obvious sociopath obsessed with making everyone "pay" because the love of his youth spurned his advances. We had two guys (though not at the same time) who did their best to play "dad" to the depressed soldier and who enabled his self-destructive behavior while at least one of them secretly resented him. We had three brothers who couldn't stand the sight of one another, but were forced to work together on a daily basis. One of those was the chronically depressed soldier, while the other two had mental problems of their own (yes, I'd argue even the youngest one) We had a guy who secretly worked behind the scenes to make the whole situation worse so that his delusion of a "rightful king" can take over a destabilized throne. And a woman who's mind is so deteriorated that she is a mere shadow of her (already not very stable) former self and who is so obsessed with the sociopath that she would (quite literally) commit murder for him. All of them would have been problematic on their own, but fate and chance and ill-luck put them all in one place and turned the whole city into a powder keg. It's like the conglomeration of entitled, inept idiots that ruled Europe before World War One. Sooner or later something was going to start a chain reaction that would lead to destruction. Welcome to King's Landing we are all f**ked up here. 12 hours ago, devilish said: I am not saying that she's the center of the universe. All I am saying (and I insist on it) is that she isn't nothing. Cersei is the queen and the warden of the Westerlands daughter. Her father is the richest and possibly the most ruthless man in Westeros, with friends inside and outside KL. Robert's day to day activity included sleeping with a Lannister, drinking wine which was poured by a Lannister and walking around with an armed Lannister who could rip him in pieces in matter of seconds. If he's sick then he'll have to go to somebody whose on Lannister payroll to get cured. If the Lannisters wanted him dead then most probably he would end up dead If Robert accuses Cersei of such hideous crime then he'll better have ample proof. Such proof is easy in today's world thanks to DNA testing. Robert could make a show out of it by inviting Jerry Springer which would boost ratings. However it becomes very very difficult to prove in a medieval context. Ned's stupid 'proof' might have convinced the Northerner but it will be ridiculed in court for so many reasons a- hair colour has no scientific proof whatsoever. Tywin would demand maester Pycelle to give his professional opinion about Ned's so called scientific discovery. After all he's the expert. We all know how that would end. b- Ned hates the Lannisters. Surely the king cannot forget the fact that the Tully bitch had kidnapped the poor imp, dragging him to the Vale to die a horrible death.This so called discovery is yet another attempt to undermine them Best case scenario Robert would just bin it. Worse case scenario he decides to proceed with it, which would, most probably, be settled by a trial of combat. Can you imagine the oaf or old Selmy fighting against Jamie or Gregor? It would be a pathetic site. Robert could of course go full tyranic mode. The twins would end up arrested and executed without any sort of trial and would be followed by a number of arrests which include Lancel Lannister. But then, rumours would spread out. What if this is just a charade set by the king to bail out from his debt? The Tyrells and the iron bank won't like it. The Westerlands will seek blood and the Targ royalist might see this crisis as an opportunity to return, possibly with 40k Dothraki + the GC. Dorne would side with the Targs, the Vale will close doors and with Hoster dying in the Riverlands and Ned busy assembling an army which takes ages to assemble things can get messy. If it had been brought to Robert's attention I am sure Cersei or one of the other Lannisters would have killed him and attempted to Crown Joff regardless. Frankly this is why Baelish/Varys sat on the incest as long as they did. The Lannister incest gets out and they kill Robert it makes Stannis king. Baelish and Varys plans would hindered by Stannis being king. Its why Jon Arryn took so long trying to find proof, since he didn't want to start a civil war without due cause. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 11 hours ago, Sigella said: You forget it doesn't have to hold up... It only has to convince Robert. To you think Robert will be concerned with rumors when he finds out he's been played like this? I don't. When Joffrey got assaulted by the Stark's direwolf, Cersei was expecting Robert's fury to unleash against those who hurt the crown prince on his first diplomatic visit. Guess what? It never happened. Cersei's expected the same when Robert's brother in law was kidnapped by the Tully girl. Guess what? It never happened either. Same thing with Ned. He expected the stag to go ballistic when Jamie attacked him. The KG whose also the kingslayer dared to lift his sword against Robert's hand, ally and dearest friend. Guess what? It never happened either Robert had a kingdom to rule and while he had absolutely no idea about financial affairs and he no interest to detail, he was certainly determined to keep the crown on his head. His focus was on the Targs not on his children's hair colour. Even if he allowed himself to be entertained with Ned's idea he would take it to court. Robert was no tyrant and he won't just execute his wife for 10 years, whose father basically finances the realm and throw his children on the streets, And for what? Because his other wife whose family cant stop accusing the Lannisters or hurting them decided they had the wrong hair colour? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 8 hours ago, devilish said: When Joffrey got assaulted by the Stark's direwolf, Cersei was expecting Robert's fury to unleash against those who hurt the crown prince on his first diplomatic visit. Guess what? It never happened. Cersei's expected the same when Robert's brother in law was kidnapped by the Tully girl. Guess what? It never happened either. Same thing with Ned. He expected the stag to go ballistic when Jamie attacked him. The KG whose also the kingslayer dared to lift his sword against Robert's hand, ally and dearest friend. Guess what? It never happened either Robert had a kingdom to rule and while he had absolutely no idea about financial affairs and he no interest to detail, he was certainly determined to keep the crown on his head. His focus was on the Targs not on his children's hair colour. Even if he allowed himself to be entertained with Ned's idea he would take it to court. Robert was no tyrant and he won't just execute his wife for 10 years, whose father basically finances the realm and throw his children on the streets, And for what? Because his other wife whose family cant stop accusing the Lannisters or hurting them decided they had the wrong hair colour? You are totally overestimating Roberts respect for house Lannister. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 4 hours ago, Sigella said: You are totally overestimating Roberts respect for house Lannister. I am afraid you're underestimating it. If Robert wasn't aware of the Lannister's power then he would have had Jamie hanged. The kingslayer dared attacking his hand of the king who was also his best friend and his most trusted ally. Ned ended up injured because of it. Same thing happened few months before when Gregor Clegane lashed against Loras. Loras wasn't only his brother's best friend but also the son of one of the most powerful Lord in Westeros. Once again, Robert hesitated and the person associated to Tywin simply got away unpunished. Robert was well aware of the lion's power. I wont say that he was afraid of it but he was wise enough not to poke it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 56 minutes ago, devilish said: I am afraid you're underestimating it. If Robert wasn't aware of the Lannister's power then he would have had Jamie hanged. The kingslayer dared attacking his hand of the king who was also his best friend and his most trusted ally. Ned ended up injured because of it. Same thing happened few months before when Gregor Clegane lashed against Loras. Loras wasn't only his brother's best friend but also the son of one of the most powerful Lord in Westeros. Once again, Robert hesitated and the person associated to Tywin simply got away unpunished. Robert was well aware of the lion's power. I wont say that he was afraid of it but he was wise enough not to poke it That was not Robert being wise it was him being a coward. Robert had literally nothing to fear from the Lannisters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 4 hours ago, devilish said: I am afraid you're underestimating it. If Robert wasn't aware of the Lannister's power then he would have had Jamie hanged. The kingslayer dared attacking his hand of the king who was also his best friend and his most trusted ally. Ned ended up injured because of it. Same thing happened few months before when Gregor Clegane lashed against Loras. Loras wasn't only his brother's best friend but also the son of one of the most powerful Lord in Westeros. Once again, Robert hesitated and the person associated to Tywin simply got away unpunished. Robert was well aware of the lion's power. I wont say that he was afraid of it but he was wise enough not to poke it You read Robert respecting the Lannisters, while I read him being annoyed at Cersei chewing his ear off about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 13 hours ago, Sigella said: You are totally overestimating Roberts respect for house Lannister. Well he is... was 3 million dragons in debt to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 9 hours ago, Lord Wraith said: Well he is... was 3 million dragons in debt to them. More the reason to castamere their asses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 4 hours ago, Sigella said: More the reason to castamere their asses. Why that is a lot of money to throw away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 On 10/02/2017 at 8:44 PM, The Wolves said: That was not Robert being wise it was him being a coward. Robert had literally nothing to fear from the Lannisters. Its not about fear (and everyone should fear the most powerful family in Westeros especially if they serve you wine, they share your bed and they walk around you armed). Its about priorities. Robert hated the crown and the Targs. By keeping the Lannisters at his side he made it more difficult for the dragons to return. He couldn't give a rat care who wears the crown after him as long as its not a Targ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 23 hours ago, Sigella said: You read Robert respecting the Lannisters, while I read him being annoyed at Cersei chewing his ear off about it. If a king wanted his queen to stay out of the way then rest assured that she would stay out of the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted February 11, 2017 Share Posted February 11, 2017 5 minutes ago, devilish said: If a king wanted his queen to stay out of the way then rest assured that she would stay out of the way. That is true. Just ship her off to some summer seat or something, or Dragonstone, or Storm's End. There would be nothing at all she'd be able to do about it. Then foster all the children to other houses (Joff to Ned, Myrcella to Stannis to keep Shireen company and Tommen to Renly) And in two actions any influence Cersei could have on Robert's "legacy" would be gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laughing Storm Reborn Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 Simple alusion: Robert could snap the neck of any Lannister in 2 seconds, and be murdered either way Too much lions around him, bit then it would be stannis, and war... Again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boarsbane Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 30 minutes ago, Orphalesion said: That is true. Just ship her off to some summer seat or something, or Dragonstone, or Storm's End. There would be nothing at all she'd be able to do about it. Then foster all the children to other houses (Joff to Ned, Myrcella to Stannis to keep Shireen company and Tommen to Renly) And in two actions any influence Cersei could have on Robert's "legacy" would be gone. She would whine to Tywin and Robert borrows lots of money from Tywin so he is obliged to listen to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted February 12, 2017 Share Posted February 12, 2017 1 minute ago, Boarsbane said: She would whine to Tywin and Robert borrows lots of money from Tywin so he is obliged to listen to him. Well that's his fault for borrowing all that money in the first place, is it not? Still puts the ultimate blame with Robert for allowing the whole thing to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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