Who is more to blame for Robert's legacy? Robert or Cersei?

[Bernie Mac]

On 11/02/2017 at 0:03 AM, Sigella said:

You read Robert respecting the Lannisters, while I read him being annoyed at Cersei chewing his ear off about it.

Husband is annoyed with a nagging wife who dislikes sex with hime while simultaneously making a Lannister the Warden of the East and telling Ned that he can't foster his own nephew Robin as Tywin doing so is a great honour. 

Robert certainly respected the Lannisters, he might not have liked them, but he certainly respected them.  

[PCK]

Cersei's main job as queen is to provide a true heir, especially for a new dynasty/regime. Nobody would have even looked at her and Jaime's kids afterward and many lives would have been spared.

 

Robert should have married Catelyn and pledged their child to Tywin's granddaughter later on. Of all the major women in the series, she has the most political sense by far. 

[Orphalesion]

25 minutes ago, Bernie Mac said:

Husband is annoyed with a nagging wife who dislikes sex with hime while simultaneously making a Lannister the Warden of the East and telling Ned that he can't foster his own nephew Robin as Tywin doing so is a great honour. 

Robert certainly respected the Lannisters, he might not have liked them, but he certainly respected them.  

I think he was more afraid of them, or too lazy/incompetent to deal with them. Robert doesn't seem to do well with conflict where he can't simply cleave the other person in half.

He had not the strength to deny the Lannisters any title or foster child they desired, but I doubt he would have ever said, or even thought, that Tywin Lannister was a man he respected or even worthy of respect.

Let's be honest, the Lannisters ran King's Landing at the start of GoT because his passiveness had allowed them to get into that position.

[The Wolves]

3 hours ago, devilish said:

Its not about fear (and everyone should fear the most powerful family in Westeros especially if they serve you wine, they share your bed and they walk around you armed). Its about priorities. Robert hated the crown and the Targs. By keeping the Lannisters at his side he made it more difficult for the dragons to return. He couldn't give a rat care who wears the crown after him as long as its not a Targ

By having and keeping the Lannisters at his side he made it really easy for the Targs to return. 

Robert was the one who kept Westeros together, once he died it all went to hell. The Lannisters are not liked at all that's why when war broke out no Houses were loyal to the Lions except their own bannermen. And Robert did care about who wore the crown after him. 

[Laughing Storm Reborn]

This is all part of why Robert is such an amazing character creation...

From child to adult his story is worthy of a separated book, grrm tells us that all were being polite and respectful in harrenhall, the prince was playing harp, lyanna was crying, benjen was playfull, ned and brandon and ashara were talking love... and Robert was drinking himself as a hobby... but then you look past that and think...

Ned, Brandon, Benjen, Lyanna and Howland were in the Stark tent, with rickard (and his wife probably alive in wf) having good fun... Rhaegar with the royal family probably (not rhaella maybe), wife, a half loony father, his friend dayne and his sister, etc...

But where was Bobby?  a young lord paramount with no REAL friends who know him (ned was in the stark fold), stannis was in se with kid renly, his parents were already dead... when the night came to go rest with friends and family at harrenhall what was left? jon arryn most likely, or the forest... behind the drinking games, choice fights, hunts, easy smiles, contagious laughter, and womanizing is a kid who most likely does this so that at night he is too tired to think about family, and just falls asleep hoping he wakes up with the sun shinning already for more of the same... "i laugh, so i don´t cry" what a character man

e.g: sandor is imo a dark shadow of robert, a robertish character if he gave up on people, and joff even as a kid saw that i believe, and couple with cersei's genes, he had his "father" as his "dog"

[Sigella]

18 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Why that is a lot of money to throw away.

If he killed them all he wouldn't have to pay. Did not mean literally fill the Rock with water and rubble.

14 hours ago, devilish said:

If a king wanted his queen to stay out of the way then rest assured that she would stay out of the way. 

Agreed.

[Bernie Mac]

28 minutes ago, Sigella said:

If he killed them all he wouldn't have to pay. Did not mean literally fill the Rock with water and rubble.

Agreed.

Where would Robert find the money for this war on the Westerlands? War is expensive and wiping out every single Lannister is going to take time and eat up a huge amount of resources while weakening his own kingdom. Especially as this is a war that might not be winnable. 

It would also make some of his other creditors suspicious. Would the Tyrells and the Iron Bank stand around as Robert decided that he was not only not going to re neg on loans he owed but try to wipe them out at the same time. 

This is the type of plan that Cersei would think is possible, Robert seems to have more sense.

[devilish]

On 11/02/2017 at 11:59 PM, Orphalesion said:

That is true. Just ship her off to some summer seat or something, or Dragonstone, or Storm's End. There would be nothing at all she'd be able to do about it. Then foster all the children to other houses (Joff to Ned, Myrcella to Stannis to keep Shireen company and Tommen to Renly) And in two actions any influence Cersei could have on Robert's "legacy" would be gone.

which makes you wonder. Why he wanted her close?

There's alot of things going on during Ned's arrival which simply do not make sense. You've got Robert being cool despite his mentor died in the most suspicious way, his friend, his hand of the king and most trusted ally got hurt by Jamie and Gregor nearly mauled Loras to death. Even the weakest of kings would go bonkers about it. But not Robert. 

Meanwhile Renly is pushing team Margaery, Robert is constantly japping on Jamie hoping he poke the lion to do something stupid and Tywin is in CR, paying the bills and staying quiet. Its almost unreal.

Which makes you wonder. Was Robert really that cool about it? Was Ned this genius who could figure out something that absolutely no one (Baratheons, Tyrells, SC etc) had figured out before? Lets face it, if there's somebody who knew how sex and bastards work, then that man would be Robert not Ned. Which would explain why Robert gave the Stormlands and dragonstone to his brothers (whom he didn't really like) rather then to his children and it would also explain why he couldn't care less how his boys were raised up. It would also explain why Renly fired  this 'Margaery look like Lyanna' thing in front of Ned.

Could it be the case that Robert figured it out long before Ned did and was simply planning how to get rid of such mess. I mean lets say Robert did a Ned and faced Cersei. What would happen? If he decides to execute her without having any proof would cause outrage in Westeros. The Westerlands would rebel, the Tyrells would probably side with team Viserys (no one wants to have his daughter married off to somebody who first force you to pay his bills and then kills off your daughter because her children happen to have the wrong hair colour) and the debtors would run scared. If he takes her to court then Tywin has the means to win in court. Pycelle would rubbish this 'golden hair' theory while both Jamie and Gregor could turn Robert, Selmy or anyone crazy enough to go toe to toe against them in a trial by combat.

So why not wait and slowly build a case instead? In 5 years time, Sweet Robin would be a man. Edmure would have taken full control over the Riverlands and Tywin & Pycelle would probably be in their sick bed. What would happen if, at that point, Robert or his cronies are able to catch the twins redhanded? Would Kevan march to the rescue knowing that his boy is in KL? I much doubt it

 

 

[Sigella]

23 hours ago, Bernie Mac said:

Where would Robert find the money for this war on the Westerlands? War is expensive and wiping out every single Lannister is going to take time and eat up a huge amount of resources while weakening his own kingdom. Especially as this is a war that might not be winnable. 

It would also make some of his other creditors suspicious. Would the Tyrells and the Iron Bank stand around as Robert decided that he was not only not going to re neg on loans he owed but try to wipe them out at the same time. 

This is the type of plan that Cersei would think is possible, Robert seems to have more sense.

Plundering the Rock and taking the goldmines seems profitable enough to me

[devilish]

39 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Plundering the Rock and taking the goldmines seems profitable enough to me

The Westerlands is a heavy fortified region with CR being fort Knox. Visenya herself said that it would be impossible to capture it and she had dragon fire. Capturing the Westerlands would have required a herculean effort and the man doing so, would need to be careful, as the Warden the West had all the means to hire a faceless man if pushed to the ropes. If Robert died, then Robert’s rebellion would have died with him, with the main players having to choose between Viserys, Renly or Stannis. I dare to say that Robert’s life was in higher risk than that of Tywin’s

Pushing a case against Cersei was also problematic. With no DNA testing at hand, it was pretty much Ned’s word vs that of Cersei’s. The Lannisters had a strong case against both. The Starks hatred towards the Lannisters was known. Ned loathed Jamie for killing Aerys which degenerated into a brawl in KL. Meanwhile Cat Stark kidnapped Tyrion and took him to die at the Vale. Robert’s case is equally weak. The Baratheon king was heavily indebted to the Lannisters. Many will see this as an attempt from Robert to provoke the lion to react to then wipe him and his debt out. Either way, Tywin had enough mates in KL to put the case in doubt. Pycelle would rubbish the blondie theory. A trial by combat would then follow which the lions would probably win with ease.

Some might think I am a Lannister’s fanboy. I assure them that I am not.  The Lannisters were far from invincible. Their decades of unnecessary violence had contributed in them making plenty of enemies from the Starks who loathed their ways to the Martells who lost Elia right to the Targs. Tywin was their source of power, a man whose able to seal a heavily one sided deal even with the devil himself and whose ruthless with his enemies. Yet Tywin was old, his successors were mostly idiots and the only one of them with brains was shunned because he was a dwarf. Their weakness was carefully exploited by the Queen of Thorns who killed Joffrey only to watch the lions skin one another alive.

All Robert had to do was to wait. The old man will eventually die and his successor will either be too weak (ie Tommen) or too grateful for the role given to him (ex Kevan) to start a painful rebellion against the crown on the twins behalf. With Ned close, Robert had the opportunity to rebuild his relationship with the Northerner which would be crucial in times to come. Meanwhile Renly was working his magic with the Tyrells while Robert was working his magic with Ned. By doing so, Robert made sure that most houses would be at the right side of the barricade by the time shit hit fan.
 

 

[Tianzi]

Robert was a colossal douchebag and he got the wife he deserved.

But it doesn't even matter.

The thing is, Robert was the king and Cersei was not. He could have not wasted the Crown's money, he could have noticed that his heir was growing to be a little psychopath. He had the power to make the decisions, and yet he didn't because oh no, his wife would be bitching about it (and when it was something he actually cared about, like taking a part in a tournament, he was able to stand up to her). Cersei didn't hold the Lannister power. Tywin did, and he wouldn't interfere unless there really was some serious political controversy, and not marital quarreling.

[John Doe]

Of course it is Cersei. Cersei caused the civil war, she decided than twincest was the way to go. Sure, people give Robert flak for not noticing it, but when you think about it only half a dozen people over the course of more than fifteen years noticed it and some of them probably with the help of those who already did. Cersei also handled the aftermath of Robert's death which led to the whole civl war. Remember, Robert wanted to make Ned his regent, Cersei decided to kill him. So the war with the North was her fault, 100% of it. 

Renly was ambitious and would have rebelled even without the incest, which is something Robert could not have possibly forseen when he made Renly the heir to Storm's End. The Ironborn are unreliable subjects at best, so even though Robert let Balon live, chances are they would have rebelled anyway. And at least Robert decided to take Theon as a hostage, and it was not his fault that Robb undid that. Cersei wanted to genocide the Islands, so you can judge for yourself who had a better judgement of the situation. 

 

Robert also had a relatively prosperous reign and was pretty popular even as a fat drunkard with pretty much everyone except for Targaryen supporters. His biggest fault was not caring enough about the government, though you could also say that he did the best thing he could do by realising his own  incompetence and handing the government to skilled people (according to Stannis, Arryn and Stannis did most of the governing).

Meanwhile, we see how incompetent Cersei really is when she is in charge in AFFC. She manages to loose her power within about a year, alienates most of her allies (Robert had his for live and was good at making new ones), appoints a council even more corrupt than Robert's (and a lot less competent) and constantly meddled with things she had no clue about. No comparison to Robert's more than a decade of peace.

So I think we can say that Cersei was worse when she was in power. Cersei was also the cause for Stannis and the North rebelling against the throne, while Renly would have rebelled regardless of Robert's actions. Only the Ironborn rebellion may or may not have been Robert's fault. 

In short: Yes, it was pretty much Cersei's fault and no matter how bad you think Robert was as a ruler, Cersei was objectively worse. I think we can savely blame Cersei for most of the problems. 

 

 

[Tianzi]

9 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Of course it is Cersei. Cersei caused the civil war, she decided than twincest was the way to go. Sure, people give Robert flak for not noticing it, but when you think about it only half a dozen people over the course of more than fifteen years noticed it and some of them probably with the help of those who already did. Cersei also handled the aftermath of Robert's death which led to the whole civl war. Remember, Robert wanted to make Ned his regent, Cersei decided to kill him. So the war with the North was her fault, 100% of it. 

Um... Joffrey?

Actually not noticing the twincest would be the one thing I wouldn't blame Robert for (for the reasons you listed), but Joffrey was not only nature, but nurture as well.

[Faereth]

This is such an interesting topic and I've enjoyed reading through it. 

For me it is both their faults but to what degree? that is more problematic. 

Robert

A powerful warrior with an insatiable appetite and who had spend his life up to his crowning as one big adventure and battlefield. He was perfectly suited to winning a war, and horribly suited to governing a realm. He did well to appoint those he thought best for the jobs but he dropped the ball big time in the fact that he never attended the counsel meetings and only did the bare minimum in the way of ruling. He was more interested in hunting, feasting and whoring around. Whilst that was in keeping with his character he had a duty as a King to do his best and to me it doesn't appear that he really tried. 

I don't think it is too much of a jump to conclude he was an alcoholic. He was also abusive and violent to his wife, which despite her obvious faults, is something Robert should not be absolved of. He initially tried interacting with Joffrey but when he wasn't sunny and happy like his bastard children he lost interest which is a shame as it appears Robert was actually very good with children. He then abandoned all three of his children to Cersei's upbringing, which is in stark contrast (pardon the pun...) to Ned who oversaw the boys' education, and Catelyn oversaw the girls. 

Robert to me was willfully ignoring a lot of the problems around him until it was too late and he realised that he had surrounded himself by lions. It is a huge shame he didn't have a closer relationship with his brothers as I think the three of them could have been a fearsome unit. The death of Jon Arryn got the warning bells going but relying on Ned was the wrong thing to do, especially as by this stage he had 15 years worth of doing what the hell he liked and did not seem inclined to listen to reason. A flawed man undoubtedly and a poor King, but the realm was at peace while he was alive. 

 

Cersei

A young woman raised to believe that she is the best woman in the world whose destiny it is to be a Queen. Just imagine it is finally your wedding day, you have finally become queen and seek to captivate the king and he calls another woman's name in your marriage bed. For a woman of Cersei's pride that must have been absolutely crushing, and I don't think she ever recovered from it. The sting over time might have faded but it was the perfect excuse/reason for her to take up her daliance with Jamie again and she never stopped after that. 

We have a spoilt and cunning individual who had learnt manipulation at a young age (this is not something innate to Cersei I do not think but what all highbourn ladies appear to have been taught) thrust into a loveless marriage to a drunk that beats her. No small wonder she does not want to have his children.

However, as Robert failed in his duties as King, she fails in her duties as Queen and instead of disinterest she actively seeks to cuckold the King and to place her incest borne bastards in line for the throne. She spoils Joffrey, who was already naturally unbalanced given the tale Robert tells of him cutting open a live cat to see the kittens, and creates the monster that he became. Remember she did not allow Jamie to have close contact with his children lest people began to suspect. 

Paranoid to the extreme since the prophecy she heard in her childhood she never trusted anyone and that has been a huge part of her downfall. She has been overly reliant on her family name, falsely believing herself to be brilliant and she plotted to have the king murdered. That may have been to save the life of her children but it can be argued they are only in danger because of her. 

Ultimately both are at fault, and I'm going to say in equal measure I think now that I've typed my thoughts out. 

[Sigella]

On 2017-02-13 at 4:23 PM, devilish said:

The Westerlands is a heavy fortified region with CR being fort Knox. Visenya herself said that it would be impossible to capture it and she had dragon fire. Capturing the Westerlands would have required a herculean effort and the man doing so, would need to be careful, as the Warden the West had all the means to hire a faceless man if pushed to the ropes. If Robert died, then Robert’s rebellion would have died with him, with the main players having to choose between Viserys, Renly or Stannis. I dare to say that Robert’s life was in higher risk than that of Tywin’s

Pushing a case against Cersei was also problematic. With no DNA testing at hand, it was pretty much Ned’s word vs that of Cersei’s. The Lannisters had a strong case against both. The Starks hatred towards the Lannisters was known. Ned loathed Jamie for killing Aerys which degenerated into a brawl in KL. Meanwhile Cat Stark kidnapped Tyrion and took him to die at the Vale. Robert’s case is equally weak. The Baratheon king was heavily indebted to the Lannisters. Many will see this as an attempt from Robert to provoke the lion to react to then wipe him and his debt out. Either way, Tywin had enough mates in KL to put the case in doubt. Pycelle would rubbish the blondie theory. A trial by combat would then follow which the lions would probably win with ease.

Some might think I am a Lannister’s fanboy. I assure them that I am not.  The Lannisters were far from invincible. Their decades of unnecessary violence had contributed in them making plenty of enemies from the Starks who loathed their ways to the Martells who lost Elia right to the Targs. Tywin was their source of power, a man whose able to seal a heavily one sided deal even with the devil himself and whose ruthless with his enemies. Yet Tywin was old, his successors were mostly idiots and the only one of them with brains was shunned because he was a dwarf. Their weakness was carefully exploited by the Queen of Thorns who killed Joffrey only to watch the lions skin one another alive.

All Robert had to do was to wait. The old man will eventually die and his successor will either be too weak (ie Tommen) or too grateful for the role given to him (ex Kevan) to start a painful rebellion against the crown on the twins behalf. With Ned close, Robert had the opportunity to rebuild his relationship with the Northerner which would be crucial in times to come. Meanwhile Renly was working his magic with the Tyrells while Robert was working his magic with Ned. By doing so, Robert made sure that most houses would be at the right side of the barricade by the time shit hit fan.
 

 

If you think CR is so mighty not even a united Westeros can touch them thats on you.

 

A You keep bringing up DNA tests although we've already concluded that it doesn't have to "hold up in a fair trial", it only needs to convince Robert.

B You keep asserting that Robert'd never dare anger Tywin, but I think finding out you've been publicly cuckolded pretty much pisses someone off above and beyond any "respect" of the culprits father...

[The Commentator]

Robert is to blame.  The Starks, Jon Arryn, and Robert had been scheming to take over the seven kingdoms since Brandon Starks was a baby.  Robert's reign proved those fools are not up to the task.  Robert took over a prosperous kingdom and drove it into bankruptcy.  Rickard Stark planned for Robert to sit the throne and his fool of a son, Brandon, to be Hand of the King.  We saw from the parallel with the mother direwolf killed by the stag that this plan, to unite Stark and Baratheon, is a disaster from the start. They should have been content to serve the Targaryens.  

[devilish]

59 minutes ago, Sigella said:

If you think CR is so mighty not even a united Westeros can touch them thats on you.

 

A You keep bringing up DNA tests although we've already concluded that it doesn't have to "hold up in a fair trial", it only needs to convince Robert.

B You keep asserting that Robert'd never dare anger Tywin, but I think finding out you've been publicly cuckolded pretty much pisses someone off above and beyond any "respect" of the culprits father...

I don't think that CR is as mighty as a united Westeros. However a united Westeros is just an utopia. If Robert decide to chop his wife's head because his children happen to have the wrong hair colour, then rest assured that there would be repercussions. Most houses will be outraged by such action. Olenna would also make sure that this drunken oaf won't marry his grand niece.

I never said that Robert would never dare anger Tywin. However a good general will pick the right terrain and conditions to fight if possible. In a decade's time Tywin would be dead or he'll be too old to lead armies and seal pacts. His successor will not be in the mood to go full Castamere (or hire a faceless man) to defend Cersei's honour either. Not to forget that the likes of Edmure and Robin would be old enough to lead armies and defend their king. Time was at Robert's side not Tywin's

[John Doe]

23 hours ago, Tianzi said:

Um... Joffrey?

Actually not noticing the twincest would be the one thing I wouldn't blame Robert for (for the reasons you listed), but Joffrey was not only nature, but nurture as well.

You're right about that, but Cersei was the one who imprisoned Ned in the first place and was responsible for framing him as a traitor. 

 

Joffrey wasn't really nutured by Robert, so if anything that's on Cersei too. Although you could blame Robert for his inaction, (noble) fathers in medieval times were typically not that deeply involved in the raising of their children until they reached a certain age, so it's not just Robert.  

[Sigella]

33 minutes ago, devilish said:

I don't think that CR is as mighty as a united Westeros. However a united Westeros is just an utopia. If Robert decide to chop his wife's head because his children happen to have the wrong hair colour, then rest assured that there would be repercussions. Most houses will be outraged by such action. Olenna would also make sure that this drunken oaf won't marry his grand niece.

I never said that Robert would never dare anger Tywin. However a good general will pick the right terrain and conditions to fight if possible. In a decade's time Tywin would be dead or he'll be too old to lead armies and seal pacts. His successor will not be in the mood to go full Castamere (or hire a faceless man) to defend Cersei's honour either. Not to forget that the likes of Edmure and Robin would be old enough to lead armies and defend their king. Time was at Robert's side not Tywin's

Outraged over Lannister heads? I'm in doubt.

[devilish]

16 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Outraged over Lannister heads? I'm in doubt.

Of course they would. The Lannisters had been paying Robert bills for years. The least he can offer to the Lannisters is a fair trial and some proof. If Robert decides to just chop the Lannisters heads without providing them the chance to defend themselves then many will be wondering whether their turn will be. Some (especially the Tyrells) might even ask why on earth they are supporting this stable boy whose only good in drinking and whoring when a true Targeryan king is waiting in Essos.

Viserys alone is a joke. Viserys with Lannister support is a can of worms ready to open especially if Tywin is able to convince the Tyrells to join them in supporting his claim. Mace would love to have his daughter queen. He might as well achieve that with somebody who won't be sending him bills or his daughter's head. 

As Robert's rebellion showed things can degenerate really quickly. As said, Viserys alone is a joke. Viserys with Lannister support might convince the GC, the Tyrells and all ex loyalists ( EX Martells) to join under one banner.