Who is more to blame for Robert's legacy? Robert or Cersei?

[The Wolves]

8 minutes ago, devilish said:

Of course they would. The Lannisters had been paying Robert bills for years. The least he can offer to the Lannisters is a fair trial and some proof. If Robert decides to just chop the Lannisters heads without providing them the chance to defend themselves then many will be wondering whether their turn will be. Some (especially the Tyrells) might even ask why on earth they are supporting this stable boy whose only good in drinking and whoring when a true Targeryan king is waiting in Essos.

Viserys alone is a joke. Viserys with Lannister support is a can of worms ready to open especially if Tywin is able to convince the Tyrells to join them in supporting his claim. Mace would love to have his daughter queen. He might as well achieve that with somebody who won't be sending him bills or his daughter's head. 

As Robert's rebellion showed things can degenerate really quickly. As said, Viserys alone is a joke. Viserys with Lannister support might convince the GC, the Tyrells and all ex loyalists ( EX Martells) to join under one banner.

Why would any Targaryen align with a Lannister? 

Viserys knows how Tywin lied his way into KL's gates than proceeded to murder his niece and nephew and sister-in-law. He also knows how Jaime murdered his father. All the Lannisters did was show betrayal and brutality to the Targaryens. There is no reason that the Targs would do anything but bring fire and blood towards that house. 

[Tianzi]

1 minute ago, John Doe said:

You're right about that, but Cersei was the one who imprisoned Ned in the first place and was responsible for framing him as a traitor. 

Well, yeah, but Ned backing off of his accusation and going obediently to the Wall, would still do some damage control.

6 minutes ago, John Doe said:

Joffrey wasn't really nutured by Robert, so if anything that's on Cersei too. Although you could blame Robert for his inaction, (noble) fathers in medieval times were typically not that deeply involved in the raising of their children until they reached a certain age, so it's not just Robert.  

Joffrey was way past that certain age. And I don't mean being involved by singing him lullabies. Ned took 7 yo Bran to executions to teach him how to be a man and lordlike responsibilities.

I blame Robert for his inaction in general. He was aware that Joffrey - the heir to his damn kingdom - was growing to be a psychopath and did nothing about it. The very example he was setting about what a king should be was not too positive either. He tolerated things like Jaime wounding Ned. Allowing Lady to be killed - a minor example, but again. The thing is, incidents like that are more on Robert than on Cersei even when she was the one who wanted or even did harm - simply because she was his subject and not he hers. It was up to him as her king and her husband to control her actions (when he could), and yet he would rather be left alone and whine that she doesn't want to sleep with him.

Of course, when he wanted to play, he suddenly could stand up to his wife.

The question who responds for Joffrey is however interesting. He is a huge and key part of Robert's legacy, and had some hand in the events even earlier, like sending an assasin after Bran (based possibly on Robert's life philosophy). Cersei obviously is guilty of Joff's paternage, but it's unclear how much it's the reason of his craziness (Tommen and Myrcella turned out fine, and look at Cersei herself). She spoiled him and had definite toxic influence on him. However Robert could have put a stop to it and take control over raising Joffrey, sending him somewehere to be fostered, or even take him with himself to some of the journeys while leaving Cersei in KL. Any 'Lannister power' wouldn't be in the way, since Tywin was sensible and he would approve of Joffrey being groomed to be a suitable heir.

I agree that Cersei was worse as a ruler, but it's a question about Robert's legacy, not Cersei's legacy (while during her ruling he was dead and all).

23 minutes ago, Sigella said:

Outraged over Lannister heads? I'm in doubt.

If Robert executed the children, like Ned feared he could?

[John Doe]

I agree that Robert's inaction deserves some blame. But- and I think that's the key difference- Cersei did worse things when she acted than Robert when he didn't, and at times Robert did act he did a lot better than she did. For that and the reasons I listed before, I still believe that while Robert deserves some amount of blame, the vast majority is on Cersei. I'm pretty sure Robert would have been more involved if Cersei hadn't been so overly... well, you know Cersei, every time we hear him actually wanting to take care of his children she intervened. Robert is still not absolved of course because he should have been more persistent and not like "ugh, whatever", but I do believe that Cersei was even to a degree at fault here. 

Or, to put it differently, imagine someone else in Robert's shoes and leave Cersei the same, and imagine someone else in Cersei's shoes and leave Robert the same. I'm pretty sure that a flawless Robert would still have a lot more problems to deal with than a flawless Cersei. 

[Nevets]

Cersei.  She refused to make their marriage work out of a sense of petty jealousy that Robert still was in love with Lyanna.  Considering that she had just died, his still carrying a torch is understandable.  But the malignant narcissist that is Cersei didn't care, and she did all she could to wreck things, such as refusing to have a child with Robert.  Her affair with Jaime only made things worse, by producing three children and making clear her treasonous behavior.

She also enabled Joffrey's misbehavior.  She constantly made excuses for him, and refused to tell him "no".  This gave Joffrey the idea that he could any damn thing he wanted to without consequence, which led to Bran, and Mycah, and Ned, and so on.

Robert's main failing was that he was bored by the details of actually having to rule.  But he at least appointed competent people to run things, such as Jon Arryn and Littlefinger.  Even Renly, Stannis, and Pycelle knew what they were doing and were generally loyal.  Even Ned was basically competent, and would have been ok if Littlefinger and Cersei hadn't been plotting against him for their own personal motives.  It was Cersei's and Littlefinger's plotting that ultimately resulted in what we see now.

[Sigella]

15 hours ago, devilish said:

Of course they would. The Lannisters had been paying Robert bills for years. The least he can offer to the Lannisters is a fair trial and some proof. If Robert decides to just chop the Lannisters heads without providing them the chance to defend themselves then many will be wondering whether their turn will be. Some (especially the Tyrells) might even ask why on earth they are supporting this stable boy whose only good in drinking and whoring when a true Targeryan king is waiting in Essos.

Viserys alone is a joke. Viserys with Lannister support is a can of worms ready to open especially if Tywin is able to convince the Tyrells to join them in supporting his claim. Mace would love to have his daughter queen. He might as well achieve that with somebody who won't be sending him bills or his daughter's head. 

As Robert's rebellion showed things can degenerate really quickly. As said, Viserys alone is a joke. Viserys with Lannister support might convince the GC, the Tyrells and all ex loyalists ( EX Martells) to join under one banner.

I arge with all this. Just not that Robert would care about it, had he found out.

[devilish]

16 hours ago, The Wolves said:

Why would any Targaryen align with a Lannister? 

Viserys knows how Tywin lied his way into KL's gates than proceeded to murder his niece and nephew and sister-in-law. He also knows how Jaime murdered his father. All the Lannisters did was show betrayal and brutality to the Targaryens. There is no reason that the Targs would do anything but bring fire and blood towards that house. 

Enemy of my enemy is my friend sort of thing. The Targs were desperate. Viserys had to sell his mother's crown to survive while he had to sell off his sister to a savage. A pardon is a small price to pay in exchange of a 40k army and unlimited funds especially if that is added to another 70k army (GC + Tyrell forces). 

 

[devilish]

1 hour ago, Sigella said:

I arge with all this. Just not that Robert would care about it, had he found out.

Well I disagree. I think Robert is far smarter then Ned portrays him to be. Robert loved Lyanna but unlike Brandon he wasn't pissed off because Rhaegar crowned her his Lady of beauty and he was wise enough not to march to KL alongside Brandon to smash the crown prince to bits. Time and time again we see Robert showing restraint, turning challenges into opportunities. He made allies out of former enemies and some of his ideas were absolute diplomatic masterstrokes. Take the Greyjoy rebellion as an example. By taking Theon as ward, he made sure that the boy would be raised in a Westerosi way. That provided him with the perfect LP of the iron islands in the near future. Same thing about Renly as LP of the Stormlands. Unlike Stannis, the young Baratheon was well versed in diplomacy. His effort brought the Tyrells closer to the Baratheons

 

 

[Tianzi]

14 hours ago, John Doe said:

I agree that Robert's inaction deserves some blame. But- and I think that's the key difference- Cersei did worse things when she acted than Robert when he didn't, and at times Robert did act he did a lot better than she did. For that and the reasons I listed before, I still believe that while Robert deserves some amount of blame, the vast majority is on Cersei. I'm pretty sure Robert would have been more involved if Cersei hadn't been so overly... well, you know Cersei, every time we hear him actually wanting to take care of his children she intervened. Robert is still not absolved of course because he should have been more persistent and not like "ugh, whatever", but I do believe that Cersei was even to a degree at fault here. 

Or, to put it differently, imagine someone else in Robert's shoes and leave Cersei the same, and imagine someone else in Cersei's shoes and leave Robert the same. I'm pretty sure that a flawless Robert would still have a lot more problems to deal with than a flawless Cersei. 

I'd agree with the first paragraph (ie. put more blame on Cersei) if they were equal partners in this business, but they weren't. Robert was the king, and, well, as it's 'Robert's legacy' he's the one primarily responsible for it.

As for the second, the main thing was that they hated each other and brought the worst of each other. But with the flawless Cersei we get the good queen (main merits - no bastards and no regicide) and with the flawless Robert the good king, which has more value (and Cersei, while she was sleeping with Jaime before her marriage, was initially willing to ditch him for the better option, so she wouldn't pull her succession stunt).

[Sigella]

On 2017-02-15 at 11:06 AM, devilish said:

Well I disagree. I think Robert is far smarter then Ned portrays him to be. Robert loved Lyanna but unlike Brandon he wasn't pissed off because Rhaegar crowned her his Lady of beauty and he was wise enough not to march to KL alongside Brandon to smash the crown prince to bits. Time and time again we see Robert showing restraint, turning challenges into opportunities. He made allies out of former enemies and some of his ideas were absolute diplomatic masterstrokes. Take the Greyjoy rebellion as an example. By taking Theon as ward, he made sure that the boy would be raised in a Westerosi way. That provided him with the perfect LP of the iron islands in the near future. Same thing about Renly as LP of the Stormlands. Unlike Stannis, the young Baratheon was well versed in diplomacy. His effort brought the Tyrells closer to the Baratheons

 

 

This brings us to a stand-still.

Nice discussing with you!