A Ghost of Someone Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Considering the State of Westeros through ADWD, it is a disaster that has befallen the continent. Robert Baratheon and his allies won the rebellion in his name and he reigned for approx 15 years. The crown has huge debts but more importantly, his Queen who despised him before they even married was cuckholding him with her own twin brother and brought into the world, 3 children that are incest bastards. The discovery of their true lineage ignited the wars that now engulf Westeros. Who should be more at blame for this, Robert or Cersei? It is understandable that both share some blame but who should get the most? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetor Xyn Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Most I'd say Cersei for obvious reasons. Robert was a terrible king, not that much better a man after Lyanna died. If he wouldn't have been such a bitch where Cersei was concerned Lady would still be alive and Joffrey wouldn't be such a retchid little shit but I can't think of anything else he's responsible for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 sometimes shit just happens...cersei and robert were forced into marriage, when both desired another...who can blame them for pursuing their passions...even though one could say both were at fault i say neither had any control over what occurred and thus can't be blamed... many have built a case to blame tywin lannister...if he had let his daughter and son marry as the targaryens had, his house would have been guaranteed a golden future but his antagonism toward the Mad King cost him his heir...and then using his daughter as a political tool further made him in part responsible for current circumstances...this is a valid argument, but i do not support it because he was a single-minded man who could only see a narrow path to ensure his legacy...an honorable goal, even if achieved by less than honorable means... i blame jon arryn and ned stark...both men forced the issue of the legitimacy of the heirs to the throne while it was really not important...robert was not interested in who fathered joff just that ned help him be a good king...if ned had seized the opportunity to be regent to joff, he might have been able to turn the tide of psychotic behavior nurtured by the more than psychotic queen...by trying to disenfranchise cersei and the heirs, they demonstrated a lack of foresight...they should have each ignored the parentage of the children and worked instead to win her loyalty...they would still be drawing breath today and wielding power...the entire game would have been changed... yeah i stand by this...jon and ned the do-gooders who fucked the realm by pressing a chain of events that plunged westeros into a devastating and tragic war... varys was right he was the only one serving the realm... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 21 minutes ago, rocksniffer said: sometimes shit just happens...cersei and robert were forced into marriage, when both desired another...who can blame them for pursuing their passions...even though one could say both were at fault i say neither had any control over what occurred and thus can't be blamed... many have built a case to blame tywin lannister...if he had let his daughter and son marry as the targaryens had, his house would have been guaranteed a golden future but his antagonism toward the Mad King cost him his heir...and then using his daughter as a political tool further made him in part responsible for current circumstances...this is a valid argument, but i do not support it because he was a single-minded man who could only see a narrow path to ensure his legacy...an honorable goal, even if achieved by less than honorable means... i blame jon arryn and ned stark...both men forced the issue of the legitimacy of the heirs to the throne while it was really not important...robert was not interested in who fathered joff just that ned help him be a good king...if ned had seized the opportunity to be regent to joff, he might have been able to turn the tide of psychotic behavior nurtured by the more than psychotic queen...by trying to disenfranchise cersei and the heirs, they demonstrated a lack of foresight...they should have each ignored the parentage of the children and worked instead to win her loyalty...they would still be drawing breath today and wielding power...the entire game would have been changed... yeah i stand by this...jon and ned the do-gooders who fucked the realm by pressing a chain of events that plunged westeros into a devastating and tragic war... varys was right he was the only one serving the realm... This whole post is like another reality. You are absolving Robert and Cersei of their responsibilities and choices that caused a horrible civil war. Robert was not forced into a marriage, he had a choice as king to not marry and name Stannis as his heir instead he married because he wanted to. And Cersei gladly married Robert because he was king and she wanted to be queen. Arryn and Ned is not to blame for the mess that Cersei and Robert made. There is no doubt that Robert would have cared about the legitimacy of his children if presented with evidence. And stop trying to make Cersei and Joffrey into these sane people who with a little help and guidance from Arryn and Ned would have been good people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Cersei just Cersei. She wanted to be Queen., she got to be Queen. As Queen you have literally one job produce true born heirs, one job and she failed. I don't care if Robert whispered Lyanna, it was a political marriage not a love match. Then Cersei has 3 incest babies with her brother and King guard Knight Jaime breaking the social taboos of Westeros to a almost comical degree. The fact that Robert had no true born heirs is the direct cause of the War of Five Kings. I am sure that Baelish and Varys would have found wars to create a war but it was handed to them on a literal golden platter. It amuses me to no end that most people blame Baelish for the WoFK when Cersei set it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 21 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said: Cersei just Cersei. She wanted to be Queen., she got to be Queen. As Queen you have literally one job produce true born heirs, one job and she failed. I don't care if Robert whispered Lyanna, it was a political marriage not a love match. Then Cersei has 3 incest babies with her brother and King guard Knight Jaime breaking the social taboos of Westeros to a almost comical degree. The fact that Robert had no true born heirs is the direct cause of the War of Five Kings. I am sure that Baelish and Varys would have found wars to create a war but it was handed to them on a literal golden platter. It amuses me to no end that most people blame Baelish for the WoFK when Cersei set it up. If you blame Cersei for Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen than Jaime gets 50% blame too. Cerse did not make those incest kids and commit treason for over 15yrs by herself or start TWot5Ks all on her lonesome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Samantha Stark Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 2 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Considering the State of Westeros through ADWD, it is a disaster that has befallen the continent. Robert Baratheon and his allies won the rebellion in his name and he reigned for approx 15 years. The crown has huge debts but more importantly, his Queen who despised him before they even married was cuckholding him with her own twin brother and brought into the world, 3 children that are incest bastards. The discovery of their true lineage ignited the wars that now engulf Westeros. Who should be more at blame for this, Robert or Cersei? It is understandable that both share some blame but who should get the most? Cersei. She is a myopic and disgusting woman who deserves everything that has befallen her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Micaelys Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 i would say they are both to blame equally. robert's disinterest caused a lot of problems, he relied too heavily on people not up to the task and was too busy whoring to make sure he got some true born children by his wife. perhaps if he hadn't been so drunk he would realise those golden children were not his. and honestly i think cersei should have been smart enough to ensure one true born baratheon heir before popping out jaime's bastards. ned siding with cersei and joff would have not helped, renly and stannis would have both still rebelled and joff would be a shit king, best case scenario he was regent (which cersei would have probably found a way to f with anyway) joff marries sansa and gets her pregnant and then dies before getting a real chance to go too madman king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 22 minutes ago, The Wolves said: If you blame Cersei for Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen than Jaime gets 50% blame too. Cerse did not make those incest kids and commit treason for over 15yrs by herself or start TWot5Ks all on her lonesome. True I do blame Jaime for it as well. Still Cersei was wearing the pants in that relationship, or the armor as it were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 37 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said: True I do blame Jaime for it as well. Still Cersei was wearing the pants in that relationship, or the armor as it were. Jaime let her control that relationship. Cersei is a lot of things and I blame her for many many things but Jaime is just as much to blame for that messed up relationship as Cersei is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingMance Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Funny thing is, Robert is an excellent war time king, and not a very good one in times of peace. He won the throne with leadership, bravery, and skill at arms, and would have been great to have around for the ensuing wars upon his death. And while he wasn't great once he ascended the throne, he did choose jon arryn as hand, which was a great choice (you could argue tywin here too, very different men but both capable in their own right). Letting Selmy remain in his KG was wise, as was lifting up foes who bent the knee. Cersei on the other hand only had 2 things going for her. Her father's status who, at the time, was the 2nd most powerful man in the realm, and her beauty. I could go on and on about her faults but they're pretty well known at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lion of the West Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 I'd actually say Robert because at the end of it, he was the person with the most power and the one who could always say "No, we'll do this instead." But Cersei certainly bears her own share of the blame along with many others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Cersei deliberately decided to bring 3 bastards and deny Robert from his heir. That doesn't come close to Robert's faults that made Wot5K happen. If we compare strictly Cersei and Robert, Cersei is absolutely more to blame and I don't think this is even close (though there are people I blame more for the war). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 1 hour ago, The Wolves said: If you blame Cersei for Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen than Jaime gets 50% blame too. Cerse did not make those incest kids and commit treason for over 15yrs by herself or start TWot5Ks all on her lonesome. Cersei was the mastermind of the 3 bastards, Jaime a 'yes-man' who just went along because he did not think about anything else besides pleasing his sister. If we have a mastermind and "yes-man", I would blame the mastermind more. If Jaime wasn't there, Cersei would have made the bastards with someone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord of Raventree Hall Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 5 hours ago, The Wolves said: This whole post is like another reality. You are absolving Robert and Cersei of their responsibilities and choices that caused a horrible civil war. Robert was not forced into a marriage, he had a choice as king to not marry and name Stannis as his heir instead he married because he wanted to. And Cersei gladly married Robert because he was king and she wanted to be queen. Arryn and Ned is not to blame for the mess that Cersei and Robert made. There is no doubt that Robert would have cared about the legitimacy of his children if presented with evidence. And stop trying to make Cersei and Joffrey into these sane people who with a little help and guidance from Arryn and Ned would have been good people. I love your rant and agree with it. 5 hours ago, The Wolves said: If you blame Cersei for Joffery, Myrcella, and Tommen than Jaime gets 50% blame too. Cerse did not make those incest kids and commit treason for over 15yrs by herself or start TWot5Ks all on her lonesome. Good point and it is very much correct. As to my answer, I think if we narrow it to these two individuals, I would give Cersei about 60% of the blame and Robert about 40%. There is no doubt that Robert was a negligent and lazy King who put the realm in great debt, but the War of 5 Kings really began because everyone knew Joffrey and company were not Robert's. Stannis knew. Renly knew. Eddard knew which led to his death and Robb's defiance. Finally, Cersei basically killed Robert, which set the whole war off. If Ned had told him, then things could have gone very differently. However, Robert's negligence is probably a huge part of the reason he didnt sire a child, as well as his whoring, his attitude toward Cersei, and his drunkenness. As well, if Robert had payed more attention and been an attentive King, I think Jon Arryn, Stannis, or Eddard might have trusted him more and so therefor given him the information before Cersei could dispatch them. So I give them a 60/40 split as Robert's acts were more out of apathy and unintential, while Cersei's were thought out and vindictive. But...also, I think Littlefinger, Varys, Tywin, and Stannis/Renly deserve some blame. What if Renly had convinced Eddard to back Stannis instead of himself. Things could have gone very differently. What if Stannis had made even the most basic of effort to talk to Eddard? What if Eddard had told Robert? What if Littledouche finger had just not lied to Catelyn or Eddard? What if Varys had been executed by Robert? (Really couod have solved everything, but then the book would suck, lol) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Wolves Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 3 hours ago, Dofs said: Cersei was the mastermind of the 3 bastards, Jaime a 'yes-man' who just went along because he did not think about anything else besides pleasing his sister. If we have a mastermind and "yes-man", I would blame the mastermind more. If Jaime wasn't there, Cersei would have made the bastards with someone else. But Jaime was there and therefore he should get his share of the blame. And your argument that Jaime is a "yes man" does not help him. Jaime had the power to tell Cersei no, but he didn't. And a "yes man" has the ability to say "no" and do the right thing. Also Cersei a mastermind? Seriously? Lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vaedys Targaryen Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, The Wolves said: But Jaime was there and therefore he should get his share of the blame. And your argument that Jaime is a "yes man" does not help him. Jaime had the power to tell Cersei no, but he didn't. And a "yes man" has the ability to say "no" and do the right thing. Also Cersei a mastermind? Seriously? Lol You have to remember that Jaime was crazy in love and a total simp when it came to Cersei and was being manipulated by her. He wasn't really in a position where his love for her would allow him to say no. You can see it in aFfC, when Jaime is in his Kingsguard cell and Cersei comes to visit him and use sex to manipulate him to do her bidding. When he finally rejects her and her advances, she speaks to him cruelly and in a mocking tone. She tells him to put his penis back in his pants because it "looks sad" and when he tells her that he has never lied to her about anything, she tells him that she has "lied to him a thousand times". Cersei is manipulative and controlling, and she has had Jaime in what some would call a "love-spell" since they were at least teenagers. Jaime can be a bit of an ass, but, as I said, when it comes to Cersei, he is a bit of a simp (at least until recently). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 7 minutes ago, The Wolves said: But Jaime was there and therefore he should get his share of the blame. And your argument that Jaime is a "yes man" does not help him. Jaime had the power to tell Cersei no, but he didn't. And a "yes man" has the ability to say "no" and do the right thing. Also Cersei a mastermind? Seriously? Lol It doesn't matter whether it helps him or no. The point is, Cersei deliberately decided to have bastards to spite Robert. It was her initiative, her plan and Jaime was just a tool in that plan. Does Jaime share a part of the blame because he was a stupid "yes-man" to Cersei? Yes, of course. But considering that the decision to have bastards was entirely on Cersei (pretty sure she did not even ask Jaime whether he wanted bastards), she shares a much bigger blame in this than Jaime. Remove Jaime and Cersei would still have bastards from someone. Remove Cersei and Jaime is not going to sleep with whoever would have been in Cersei's place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Hoare Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 Cersei of course. Robert was a druken degenerate king, but if Cersei had a black haired son like she should've, no war would ever happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rocksniffer Posted February 3, 2017 Share Posted February 3, 2017 8 hours ago, The Wolves said: This whole post is like another reality. You are absolving Robert and Cersei of their responsibilities and choices that caused a horrible civil war. Robert was not forced into a marriage, he had a choice as king to not marry and name Stannis as his heir instead he married because he wanted to. And Cersei gladly married Robert because he was king and she wanted to be queen. Arryn and Ned is not to blame for the mess that Cersei and Robert made. There is no doubt that Robert would have cared about the legitimacy of his children if presented with evidence. And stop trying to make Cersei and Joffrey into these sane people who with a little help and guidance from Arryn and Ned would have been good people. your superficial reading of the facts limits your ability to understand that the events set in motion, which you blame robert and cersei for began years before their actual marriage. you say she wanted to marry robert however this is a quote from the wiki.. Quote After the conclusion of Robert's Rebellion, a marriage was arranged between Cersei and the new king, Robert I Baratheon, in order to seal the new royal house's alliance with House Lannister. without this marriage the alliance would have broken down and robert would have had to immediately go to war with the richest, strongest house in westeros... cersei wanted power to be sure but the marriage was doomed from the beginning, i submit that neither had the will to make it work. However it was Tywin who was responsible for "winning" the rebellion because without his duplicity the gates wold have remained closed and the sack of KL would have failed. you say robert had a choice i again point to the quote because he also knew he had to solidify his alliance with the Lannisters...what choice did he have exactly? you claim robert would have cared...i say why? his position was secure as was hers until the interference by jon arryn. because he was king the children's parentage was a non-issue...after arryn's death cersei became convinced she had no alternative but use cunning to save herself and kids...she had always been convinced that she was considered weak because she was a woman...i refer you again to the wiki to confirm this. once robert had appointed ned as new hand, cersei's way forward began to come into focus, she realizes that to have real power she needs for Joff to be king, she had no way of knowing that his true nature when robbed of a father's influence would result in his own death ned proceeded to do the same investigation to prove kids were illegitimate, and to me this is his greatest folly. even if his goal was to "save" roberts dignity, and or find jon's killer (and he was never even close to doing that, since he was so distracted by his personal quest he failed to see the truth of lysa's betrayal)... he had the opportunity to work with the queen to help her secure the future for her children. he didn't, ned's self-righteous attitude caused the series of events that resulted in his friend's death, the death of his household in KL and ultimately his own death...which led to all the deadly events that followed the people responsible were Tywin for setting events in motion, but ultimately it was jon arryn and ned stark who laid the final stones on the grave of the realm...none can dispute that there were many opportunities for each man to control the situation...but honor, and self-righteousness prevented them from seeing the big picture...as varys pointed out to ned in the cell and finally i never said either cersei or joffrey could have been made "good people" but they could have been controlled and robert, jon, ned, would be alive...and all the death that followed could have been averted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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