Hodor the Articulate Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 On 4/02/2017 at 0:09 AM, Dofs said: Remove Jaime and Cersei would still have bastards from someone. Remove Cersei and Jaime is not going to sleep with whoever would have been in Cersei's place. Why, because Jamie is such an exceptionally moral man? Cersei got bastards from Jaime because of the bond they shared. I doubt she would have trusted or not been disdainful of any other man enough to let them impregnate her. Also, having children may have been Cercei's idea, but Jaime kept having sex with her, fully aware that she was keeping the children they conceived. At most, you can excuse him for Jofferey, though even there, it's not like he doesn't know how babies are made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 7, 2017 Share Posted February 7, 2017 15 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Robert sat by while the realm got more in debt and in particular, a large part of it to Tywin Lannister. Jon Arryn was not as good a hand as one would think. However, if Cersei had not killed her and Robert's child before it was born and she did not incest mate with Jaime to produce the 3 Golden Bastards, the realm would most likely be together now and there would not have been a War of the 5 Kings. That was Cersei's more than Robert's fault right there. But Cersei wasn't in charge, she was an faulty element that needed replacing by the person who was. Robert neglecting to do so is pretty much to blame for everything but the others, the slavers and the IB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 7, 2017 Author Share Posted February 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, Sigella said: But Cersei wasn't in charge, she was an faulty element that needed replacing by the person who was. Robert neglecting to do so is pretty much to blame for everything but the others, the slavers and the IB. My point was that Cersei made the deliberate decision to, in her words"cleans herself" of Robert's true born child and heir that she was pregnant with so that it would clear the way for her to have incest Lannister babies with Jaime masquerade as Baratheons in order to steal the iron Throne for her and her self believed to be "superior house". That was Cersei and if she had only born King's Robert's children, like a Queen is supposed to, there would have been no War of The 5 Kings. That was Cersei's choice and doing (Jaime helped), not Robert's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 21 hours ago, A Ghost of Someone said: My point was that Cersei made the deliberate decision to, in her words"cleans herself" of Robert's true born child and heir that she was pregnant with so that it would clear the way for her to have incest Lannister babies with Jaime masquerade as Baratheons in order to steal the iron Throne for her and her self believed to be "superior house". That was Cersei and if she had only born King's Robert's children, like a Queen is supposed to, there would have been no War of The 5 Kings. That was Cersei's choice and doing (Jaime helped), not Robert's. Cersei is responible for her actions, yes, not disputing that at all. She is not responsible for the realm though - Robert is. Every bit of power she has stems from him, being married to him, giving him bastards, misruling in their name, its all stuff Robert made possible, without him she'd just be some lady from a great house. Ned has more blame than her, in regards of the bigger picture. He could have ended her in book one by telling Robert the truth but he didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 40 minutes ago, Sigella said: Cersei is responible for her actions, yes, not disputing that at all. She is not responsible for the realm though - Robert is. Every bit of power she has stems from him, being married to him, giving him bastards, misruling in their name, its all stuff Robert made possible, without him she'd just be some lady from a great house. Ned has more blame than her, in regards of the bigger picture. He could have ended her in book one by telling Robert the truth but he didn't. How exactly did Robert hurt the realm? Under his command, the crown was as strong as ever. The king was friend to 3 Wardens/LPs and he was related to 2 others. The IS were kept under their toe with Theon acting as ward. He wisely gave Renly the Stormlands which paved to a friendship with a big house in Westeros (the Tyrells). By the time of GOT, Robert successfully sealed a marriage alliance between his son and possibly one of the most powerful Ladies in Westeros. Sansa was Ned's daughter, Edmure's niece and Lord Robin's cousin. That was achieved when Robert was still young and had two other children to give away. Robert's excess created great debt. However most of the debt was internally, a big chunk of it owned to a house his son would soon inherit. Tywin's first born was KG which means CR would be inherited by the imp, a man no one liked in the Westerlands (including his own dad). There's no way Tywin would have allowed Tyrion to be his heir. Now if Tywin can defy the inheritance rule by lets say appointing Kevan as heir then its within the King's rights to fight for his wife's inheritance. We all know no-one would like to end up at the wrong end of the warhammer expecially since both twins and more then half the realm would side with Robert. Robert's biggest mistake was to not keep the twins under check, something not even the great Tywin Lannister was able to do. The twins outsmarted the old lion in every occasion, by having sex in his liar right to becoming KG under his nose. Robert thought that he'll marry the typical noble lady who will spent her life speaking about laces and children while her noble husband was going to war or having sex with somebody else. How wrong he was. Everything Cersei touches dies. Her escapades with her twin brother caused the king's life and Tywin's natural heir. Her inability to raise children costed her son's life. Her inability to go through her hatred costed her father's life, the Lannister's finest warrior and turned the only Lannister with brains against the crown. Even now she's relentlessly planning her ruin, from pissing off the Tyrells right to arming the faith militant. How stupid can a person be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 2 hours ago, devilish said: How exactly did Robert hurt the realm? Under his command, the crown was as strong as ever. The king was friend to 3 Wardens/LPs and he was related to 2 others. The IS were kept under their toe with Theon acting as ward. He wisely gave Renly the Stormlands which paved to a friendship with a big house in Westeros (the Tyrells). By the time of GOT, Robert successfully sealed a marriage alliance between his son and possibly one of the most powerful Ladies in Westeros. Sansa was Ned's daughter, Edmure's niece and Lord Robin's cousin. That was achieved when Robert was still young and had two other children to give away. Robert's excess created great debt. However most of the debt was internally, a big chunk of it owned to a house his son would soon inherit. Tywin's first born was KG which means CR would be inherited by the imp, a man no one liked in the Westerlands (including his own dad). There's no way Tywin would have allowed Tyrion to be his heir. Now if Tywin can defy the inheritance rule by lets say appointing Kevan as heir then its within the King's rights to fight for his wife's inheritance. We all know no-one would like to end up at the wrong end of the warhammer expecially since both twins and more then half the realm would side with Robert. Robert's biggest mistake was to not keep the twins under check, something not even the great Tywin Lannister was able to do. The twins outsmarted the old lion in every occasion, by having sex in his liar right to becoming KG under his nose. Robert thought that he'll marry the typical noble lady who will spent her life speaking about laces and children while her noble husband was going to war or having sex with somebody else. How wrong he was. Everything Cersei touches dies. Her escapades with her twin brother caused the king's life and Tywin's natural heir. Her inability to raise children costed her son's life. Her inability to go through her hatred costed her father's life, the Lannister's finest warrior and turned the only Lannister with brains against the crown. Even now she's relentlessly planning her ruin, from pissing off the Tyrells right to arming the faith militant. How stupid can a person be? You are all missing my point. That being the fact that Cersei is nothing without Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 3 hours ago, Sigella said: Cersei is responible for her actions, yes, not disputing that at all. She is not responsible for the realm though - Robert is. Every bit of power she has stems from him, being married to him, giving him bastards, misruling in their name, its all stuff Robert made possible, without him she'd just be some lady from a great house. Ned has more blame than her, in regards of the bigger picture. He could have ended her in book one by telling Robert the truth but he didn't. wow, so, Cersei is even less to blame than Ned? I respectfully disagree. She was not and is not a victim. Her actions were purely out of her own greedy narcissism and general sense of Lannister entitlement. She never intended to be faithful to Robert, she hated him because he killed Rheagar. Robert let the kingdom run up a massive debt, yes, very, very bad but he kept the peace and she shattered all of it for the reasons stated above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Just now, A Ghost of Someone said: wow, so, Cersei is even less to blame than Ned? I respectfully disagree. She was not and is not a victim. Her actions were purely out of her own greedy narcissism and general sense of Lannister entitlement. She never intended to be faithful to Robert, she hated him because he killed Rheagar. Robert let the kingdom run up a massive debt, yes, very, very bad but he kept the peace and she shattered all of it for the reasons stated above. Never said she was a victim. I said she's nothing without Robert (and Neds mercy) and I'm right. He could have set her aside, proclaim JMT bastards and remarried Margaery in like five minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, Sigella said: Never said she was a victim. I said she's nothing without Robert (and Neds mercy) and I'm right. He could have set her aside, proclaim JMT bastards and remarried Margaery in like five minutes. She had him murdered before he could find out. Speaking of that, how convenient was that Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon Arryn right before he could tell Robert after he realized the kids were twincest bastards? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 Just now, A Ghost of Someone said: She had him murdered before he could find out. Speaking of that, how convenient was that Littlefinger had Lysa kill Jon Arryn right before he could tell Robert after he realized the kids were twincest bastards? No, the blessed Ned choose not to tell him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 He did not want to "soil the kings last minutes" iirc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orphalesion Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 58 minutes ago, Sigella said: He did not want to "soil the kings last minutes" iirc. And he gave Cersie ample warning of him being about to tell Robert. He pretty much went to her "Hey! I'm going to tell your husband that your children are incest bastards! But not right away! Like, when he comes back! So if you have any schemes in place that could prevent my righteous plan and cause me and my familya nd people death, pain and suffering, you still have time to enact them! *hint hint*" Both Robert and Cersei are at faul for not doing their duty as King and Queen and many other people are to blame as well, because that's how those things tend to work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 4 hours ago, Sigella said: No, the blessed Ned choose not to tell him. Robert was wounded and dying before Ned could tell him and Ned wrote Robert's will that circumvented Cersei anyway, or should have but Ned was double crossed by LF of all people and Ned's soldiers were murdered and him imprisoned and eventually executed. Also, Ser Barristan let the Starks down again, just like when Ned's father, brother and their companions were murdered by Aerys. Jon Arryn died before he could tell Robert. "the seed is strong". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sigella Posted February 8, 2017 Share Posted February 8, 2017 41 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said: Robert was wounded and dying before Ned could tell him and Ned wrote Robert's will that circumvented Cersei anyway, or should have but Ned was double crossed by LF of all people and Ned's soldiers were murdered and him imprisoned and eventually executed. Also, Ser Barristan let the Starks down again, just like when Ned's father, brother and their companions were murdered by Aerys. Jon Arryn died before he could tell Robert. "the seed is strong". Yes and that will worked out just splendid. Anyways Ned had his power from him too so what Ned does is on Robert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Ghost of Someone Posted February 8, 2017 Author Share Posted February 8, 2017 1 hour ago, Sigella said: Yes and that will worked out just splendid. Anyways Ned had his power from him too so what Ned does is on Robert. Well, Ned had it worked out as best he could under the circumstances. the bloodshed that ensued was Cersei's doing, LF enabled her for a reward as usual but that is on her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 15 hours ago, Sigella said: You are all missing my point. That being the fact that Cersei is nothing without Robert. She isn't nothing. She's the daughter of a powerful Lord who was determined to do anything within his power to have her marry a King. Old Arryn portrayed Robert's marriage to her as necessary in a bid to consolidate power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 15 hours ago, Orphalesion said: And he gave Cersie ample warning of him being about to tell Robert. He pretty much went to her "Hey! I'm going to tell your husband that your children are incest bastards! But not right away! Like, when he comes back! So if you have any schemes in place that could prevent my righteous plan and cause me and my familya nd people death, pain and suffering, you still have time to enact them! *hint hint*" Both Robert and Cersei are at faul for not doing their duty as King and Queen and many other people are to blame as well, because that's how those things tend to work. Ned screwed Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
desire Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 I always thought both As he raised it to his mouth, she smashed her own horn in his face, so hard she chipped a tooth. Years later at a feast, she heard him telling a serving wench how he’d cracked the tooth in a mêlée. Well, our marriage was a mêlée, she reflected, so he did not lie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dofs Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 On 2/7/2017 at 4:43 AM, Hodor the Articulate said: Why, because Jamie is such an exceptionally moral man? Because it wouldn't fit his characterization. On 2/7/2017 at 4:43 AM, Hodor the Articulate said: Cersei got bastards from Jaime because of the bond they shared. I doubt she would have trusted or not been disdainful of any other man enough to let them impregnate her. She knew her job was already to let a man she absolutely hates and is disdainful of to impregnate her so I do not doubt she would have gotten a child from another disdainful man simply out of spite. Hell, maybe even from a pig boy to humiliate Robert even more. Considering that Cersei had slept with a pathetic teen and sell swords, she doesn't seem to have much qualms about who to sleep with. On 2/7/2017 at 4:43 AM, Hodor the Articulate said: Also, having children may have been Cercei's idea, but Jaime kept having sex with her, fully aware that she was keeping the children they conceived. At most, you can excuse him for Jofferey, though even there, it's not like he doesn't know how babies are made. I am not taking away the whole blame from Jaime, just that Cersei had it more. And more than Robert. Still Littlefinger is the one who is the most responsible though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
devilish Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 If Robert was the cause then surely after his death everything went as smooth as ever. The new king (who was raised by the queen) would be a great king, the Tyrell and Lannister alliance would be as strong as ever, the bond within the Lannister family will grow stronger by the day, the extremists within the faith of the seven will never raise their ugly head etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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