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What would you change about the show?

117 posts in this topic

17 minutes ago, CaptainTheo said:

Agree with all that. I would add they ruined her even more in episode 9 of season 6 having turned her into the exact opposite of her book counterpart into a completely new character (Asnas?) who fed a restrained prisoner to his dogs and smiled about it. Gag. Sounds exactly like her sister Arya (who's supposed to be her opposite) and also exactly like Ramsay himself. I'm really disappointed because Sansa used to be one of my favourite characters. It's as if the show insists that all the female characters have to be badass (Arya, Brienne), sex sirens (Mel, Margaery) or a bit of both (Daenerys). Those who aren't tend to get killed off (Cat, Myrcella, Shireen).

Also agree that Dorne is worst of all and the worst scenes from the entire series so far IMO are Faullaria and the Sand Fakes avenging the barbaric murder of members of the Dornish royal family by barbarically murdering the remainder of the Dornish royal family (also committing multiple kinslaying in the process) and the guards just standing there and letting them become the new rulers.

From season #5 the #1 thing I would have changed about Dorne is to not have Myrcella die on the boat with Jaime. Let the viewers enjoy one nice scene in that finale, let one totally good female character live, and let Cersei see her daughter again. Myrcella didn't have to be killed off so soon. (This would have been far more logical - Faullaria only just swore allegiance to Doran, admitted to Jaime that Myrcella had nothing to with Oberyn's death, and gains absolutely nothing from murdering an innocent little girl.) This along with Doran's and Trystane's murder reflects a broader problem with the last two seasons that the writers are continually insistent on constant shock value regardless of how little sense the shocks actually make.

Sansa, Arya and Bran are my 3 fav book characters and Sansa on this show has become to painful to watch.

Dorne would have been more entertaining if it was just considered some desert wasteland after some off screen natural disaster after the Red Viper died and Myrcella died there as a result of it and we/the show never, ever went there again in AGOT (like the doom of Valaria or something like it). It was that bad.

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5 hours ago, T and A said:

Thank you so much for this comment. I was already typing when I read that you had written perfectly what I had in thoughts. It is allways the same discussion about every book that was ever filmed. It happend to The Lord of the Rings and also Harry Potter just to name a few, that became popular. And this "book-purists" just don't seem to understand that Cinema is a complete different art than books. Only cause it sounds cool in the books, does not mean it will work on big screen.

And it is alwaaaaays the same: "this is not the books", "this is not what happend in the books", "the character in the books is so much different", "oh they ruined it", "they cut that...they cut this...". And then of course "this is not an adaption of the books". I am very sorry, If I may sound rude, it is not my intention, but you are not the only people who do this. It is been done, since "Gone with the winds" was made a movie. And the problem are not (allways, there are of course exceptions) the filmmakers. The problem is that those people don't understand that the plot and the script for cinema is based on visualisation not imagination. 

If you bring cinematographic arguments, that is fine. But you can not compare book to tv by same standards. They are two very different arts. And only cause you don't like the show, does not mean that it is not an adaption. 

Now back to the topic :rolleyes:

I did not enjoy Dorne at all. If you would cut Dorne completely, the Show would not be much different. I would just went straight to the point where they make an alliance with Danny and introduce Dorne at that moment. We know from Oberyn, that they hate the Lanisters because of Ellia Martel. Plus you have the killed Oberyn as another (and for the viewers rememberable) reason for Dorne to start a war with Kings Landing. It would also be a more shoking momemt to see Varys talking in the last episode with Doran, and introduce the new player, who was long forgotten. 

I will admit I am a book purist with the Lord of the Rings, but that's because it was the first book I ever read and I wouldn't have lik d the movies even if they had not been an adaption of the book (really you expect me to sit through 3+ hours of washed out colours and dirty people walking through the moors/talking to each other? Pass!) Plus the LotR doesn't really lend itself to adaption, its story structure is difficult to deal with, First we painfully track through every, single. freaking. elf. village. on. the . continent. Then we spend a whole book with boring horse people nobody cares about (or a Beowulf fanfiction without Grendel, whichever way you choose to look at it) and in the last volume so much happens that a good chunk of it has to happen offscreen. Characters show up out of nowhere and then disappear again after some sort of supernatural episode and not many of the characters that stay with us are really that interesting or receive much character development. Now try to turn that into a narrative acceptable for movies...

However Tolkien's writing style has so many layers upon layers and whimsy and wonder and mystery that you don't notice that the plot and characters aren't that amazing. However you can't translate writing style to film. Sooo.... 

On topic:

Well the problem with leaving out Dorne would be Myrcella, She still has to die somehow. What would you suggest here? Have her simply show up back at King's landing with the explanation that she was traded for Gregor's head? Then off her some other way? Have Varys shoot her to destabilize Cersei? Have the FM involved?

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It will be interesting to see what and how it happens, whatever that is, to Tommen and Myrcella.

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12 minutes ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

It will be interesting to see what and how it happens, whatever that is, to Tommen and Myrcella.

I have read theories that Myrcella might already be dead; Darkstar's blade was poisoned and the girl Nymeria takes back to King's Landing is the Lannister cousin that had accompanied her to Dorne as a body double. Which would mean the show plot was a stupider version of the book plot.

I can imagine that Tommen's demise might also be a more logical version of what we saw on the show. Book Tommen, of course, hasn't been artificially aged so that we can have bedroom scenes with Natalie Dormer (nothing against her, she was one of the best things about GoT, but I strongly believe that the only reason they aged Tommen was so they could continue playing her as sexy and alluring)  so we can rule out suicide.

I do believe that most of the elements of the blowing up of the Sept will happen in the book, not the same way, and possible not connected to each other, but I think it's farily predictable that Cersei will blow up something with those widlfire deposits.

The Tyrell's manipulating Tommen into stamping a document that outlaws trial by combat is definitely something I can see happening in the book, depriving Cersei of her option for Trial by Combat and making her look for even more drastic options.

The best guess I can do from the point of view that the book will give us a more logical version of the show plot is that she will blow up the Sept, and that somebody has taken Tommen there without her knowing (after all, unlike on the show nobody in the books is in complete control of their situation and all possible factors) So she'd essentially kill her own son unawares.

I can't see "Cersei Lannister, the First of her Name" happening in the books however, so maybe Tommen survives the Sept (if it happens) and she continues to reign through him.

There are theories, however, that she'll join up with Euron (that vision in the sample chapters) maybe he'll kill Tommen?

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1 hour ago, Orphalesion said:

I have read theories that Myrcella might already be dead; Darkstar's blade was poisoned and the girl Nymeria takes back to King's Landing is the Lannister cousin that had accompanied her to Dorne as a body double. Which would mean the show plot was a stupider version of the book plot.

I can imagine that Tommen's demise might also be a more logical version of what we saw on the show. Book Tommen, of course, hasn't been artificially aged so that we can have bedroom scenes with Natalie Dormer (nothing against her, she was one of the best things about GoT, but I strongly believe that the only reason they aged Tommen was so they could continue playing her as sexy and alluring)  so we can rule out suicide.

I do believe that most of the elements of the blowing up of the Sept will happen in the book, not the same way, and possible not connected to each other, but I think it's farily predictable that Cersei will blow up something with those widlfire deposits.

The Tyrell's manipulating Tommen into stamping a document that outlaws trial by combat is definitely something I can see happening in the book, depriving Cersei of her option for Trial by Combat and making her look for even more drastic options.

The best guess I can do from the point of view that the book will give us a more logical version of the show plot is that she will blow up the Sept, and that somebody has taken Tommen there without her knowing (after all, unlike on the show nobody in the books is in complete control of their situation and all possible factors) So she'd essentially kill her own son unawares.

I can't see "Cersei Lannister, the First of her Name" happening in the books however, so maybe Tommen survives the Sept (if it happens) and she continues to reign through him.

There are theories, however, that she'll join up with Euron (that vision in the sample chapters) maybe he'll kill Tommen?

i have read the Myrcella is already dead theory and it is possible.

Agreed on why they aged up Tommen, kinda disturbing but well, that is them.

Agreed on the Cersei, the show is going full on ridiculous with her taking the throne in her own name and seemingly getting away with it and even supported by the people if rumors are true.

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1 hour ago, A Ghost of Someone said:

i have read the Myrcella is already dead theory and it is possible.

This actually made me realize that there was no reason at all for the way the Dorne "storyline" turned out of the show.

All they have to do is Darkstar.

Have Eleria and the Derp Snakes take Arianne's role in trying to make Myrcella queen and they can be all "women power!" "queen making!" etc. etc. etc. They take Darkstar along as Myrcella's bodyguard or something (or simply to have another sword) on their flight from the Water Gardens and run into Jaime and Bronn there is a fight, everything is cleared up, but Darkstar stabs Myrcella during the fighting.  She dies while telling Jaime she knows he's her father and that she's happy. 

200% less stupid.

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10 hours ago, T and A said:

Thank you so much for this comment.

No problem :D

 

10 hours ago, T and A said:

I did not enjoy Dorne at all. If you would cut Dorne completely, the Show would not be much different. I would just went straight to the point where they make an alliance with Danny and introduce Dorne at that moment. We know from Oberyn, that they hate the Lanisters because of Ellia Martel. Plus you have the killed Oberyn as another (and for the viewers rememberable) reason for Dorne to start a war with Kings Landing. It would also be a more shoking momemt to see Varys talking in the last episode with Doran, and introduce the new player, who was long forgotten. 

I agree that including Dorne was a mistake. Instead of sending Cersei Myrcella's necklace in season 5, they could have sent her Myrcella's head in season 6, and let the story progress from there.

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4 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

I can imagine that Tommen's demise might also be a more logical version of what we saw on the show. Book Tommen, of course, hasn't been artificially aged so that we can have bedroom scenes with Natalie Dormer (nothing against her, she was one of the best things about GoT, but I strongly believe that the only reason they aged Tommen was so they could continue playing her as sexy and alluring)  so we can rule out suicide.

There was only one bedroom scene with Natalie Dormer, and it wasn't exactly what I would consider gratuitous, so I highly doubt that was the reason they aged up Tommen. The aging up Tommen was a result of them expanding Tommen's role, and they needed an actor who could carry scenes.

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6 hours ago, Orphalesion said:

This actually made me realize that there was no reason at all for the way the Dorne "storyline" turned out of the show.

All they have to do is Darkstar.

Have Eleria and the Derp Snakes take Arianne's role in trying to make Myrcella queen and they can be all "women power!" "queen making!" etc. etc. etc. They take Darkstar along as Myrcella's bodyguard or something (or simply to have another sword) on their flight from the Water Gardens and run into Jaime and Bronn there is a fight, everything is cleared up, but Darkstar stabs Myrcella during the fighting.  She dies while telling Jaime she knows he's her father and that she's happy. 

200% less stupid.

They wasted Sedig as Prince Doran but after two seasons of cringing, better they did not do it at all, sad. Arianne is popular from the books as their is a story there that would have played well.

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On 06/02/2017 at 10:40 PM, T and A said:

Thank you so much for this comment. I was already typing when I read that you had written perfectly what I had in thoughts. It is allways the same discussion about every book that was ever filmed. It happend to The Lord of the Rings and also Harry Potter just to name a few, that became popular. And this "book-purists" just don't seem to understand that Cinema is a complete different art than books. Only cause it sounds cool in the books, does not mean it will work on big screen.

Well, obviously this is true - and I think there are not many people who would disagree, so it's kind of a strawman argument. Anyway, notwithstanding this observation being true it can be said that there are good and bad adaptations, some are very true to the "spirit" of the book even if they change the story to suit the medium - and some adaptations are not true to the spirit, the atmosphere of the book at all. Jackson's last two LOTR films were rather brutal with Tolkien's text and ethos, and GOT has really been quite outrageous these couple of last seasons (no doubt largely due to the insane mass of material that they somehow have to fit to rather limited screen time). A film or tv series cannot be carbon copy of the original book - they shouldn't even try to be, but any adaptation should be about translating a writer's vision into another medium as faithfully as is possible. Martin is describing a complicated, labyrinthine struggle for power but lately GOT has made large parts of the game seem idiotic and pointless thus radically diminishing the credibility and impact of the story.

Edited by hwyl
grammar

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I would of changed the Northern plot by kinda smashing the two plots together. Bare with me cause it gets long, first in S4 we cut the IB plot an instead Davos gets the idea from Shireen to go to White Harbor an we get the scene with Davos dragged away to get executed, then in the first episode of S5 we get the "North Remembers" scene were Robett Glover is introduced as well but instead of Wex an Rickon, Wyman has the captain who set Ayra to Bravoos an that is where Davos is sent and he gets Ayra to the twins in S6 instead of her Deus ex machina journey. Now back North, S5. Mance dies like ion the show but instead of "the free folk will never follow you", they bend the knee like the book but unlike the book Stannis takes them with him as mountain clan substitutes in exchange for the Hardhome rescue. So with Stannis marching down with wildlings (an later Glovers (after he liberates DWM offscreen) an smaller houses Ramsay pissed off) results in Smalljon hands over Rickon to the Boltons like in the show (Karstark is there too). Ramsay mutilates Rickon in front of Reek resulting in Reek/Theon tree scene an later him rescuing Rickon. Wyman insults the Karstarks resulting in a riot that Theon kills Ramsy's girlfriend and jumps off the wall with Rickon. They are saved by Glover an Stannis decides to attack WF after the snowstorm stops thinking with Rickon, Bolton will have to face him out in the open or risk more rebellion. Ramsay kills his dad after finding out his step-mom was secretly pregnant and had a boy and blames Wyman and straps him and his high command on the burning cross and feeds his stepmom/baby to his dogs (E9 shocker). Meanwhile, Sansa is in the Vale with LF and after finding out through LF spies the Boltons have Rickon manipulates SR to send the Vale North. So E10 S5, we get the Battle of Ice: Stannis/Wildlings/Glovers vs Ramsay/Umbers/Karstarks, Ramsay uses Osha (in place Rickon) and RIckon (in place of Jon) breaks rank (on Shaggy in place of a horse) to chase after her resulting in everyone in Stannis' side breaking rank but Osha an Shaggy are killed by a rain of arrows (in place of Ramsay shooting by himself) while Rickon is hurt. Glover duels SJ, Karstark launches a cavalry attack which splits  the Stannis amry in half and the Boltons form the spartan shield thing like the show and like the show Sansa an the Vale make the save. Ramsay is fed to his dogs but Theon not Sansa watches it. Also Shireen/Queen/Mel are at CB the whole time an Jon is stabbed after he returns from HH an gets a PL from Ramsay demanding Rickon back so he does like book "Im gonna march on WF" resulting in FTW. An done

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Really, I just want them to focus on logically going about doing what they want to do.  If they want to rape Sansa in Winterfell for the emotional power, invent a way for her to end up under Bolton control that doesn't involve her choosing to marry her family's murderers for revenge, or Littlefinger giving up a potential key to 3 Lord Paramouncies. Have her going among different houses in the North to rally support and be betrayed/kidnapped.  

Don't have Dany win over a witchcraft hating culture with witchcraft.  Have her win over the Dothraki with the strength that Drogon represents, since the Dothraki value strength above all. 

Don't have Arya suddenly inherit Wolverine's regeneration ability, or become no one because she showed she doesn't follow the ideals of the Faceless Men ("I am Arya Stark of Winterfell" is about as anti-Faceless Men as you can get).

For the love of God, don't have one of your top heroes lose the battle for his side, be saved by an opposing army who is there because of the rights of his trueborn sister, and suddenly have the incompetent commander, Night's Watch deserter, zombie, bastard declared King in the North (and possibly the Vale? Not sure what to make of their cheering) AND HAVE HIS TRUEBORN SISTER SMILE AT BEING USURPED.

Maybe think of a better frame for the exposition machine formerly known as Bran.  Why the f*** is Willas ----> Hodor so important? Why is the wildfire under King's Landing?  Why is Jaime executing Aerys?  Why is (only the first half) of the ToJ? The only thing of any possible value was the creation of the Others. How does this help Bran "become" the 3 eyed crow.

And maybe if Kinslaying is such a big deal, Ramsey, Ellaria, Euron, and Cersei should experience some consequences from doing so? I mean, it's only one of the biggest taboos possible in this world.  

(I can go on).

Just give me a semblance of logic in your story, please. And maybe some lighting. Everything else about the show is so good, but the foundation sucks.

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On 2/7/2017 at 0:34 AM, A Ghost of Someone said:

Sansa, Arya and Bran are my 3 fav book characters and Sansa on this show has become to painful to watch.

Dorne would have been more entertaining if it was just considered some desert wasteland after some off screen natural disaster after the Red Viper died and Myrcella died there as a result of it and we/the show never, ever went there again in AGOT (like the doom of Valaria or something like it). It was that bad.

Honestly i would have skipped Dorne, its a boring plot in the books, and in the tv show they managed to make it worse by hiring one of the worst actresses on the planet for the Sand Snakes. Doran is such a boring character, i know people like to think of him as some mastermind that is just taking his time to do things right, but he is simply just spineless.

I would have loved if they would have kept Grenn and co a bit longer, their comradery was one of the best things on the show.

 

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3 hours ago, Nocturne said:

 

Honestly i would have skipped Dorne, its a boring plot in the books, and in the tv show they managed to make it worse by hiring one of the worst actresses on the planet for the Sand Snakes. Doran is such a boring character, i know people like to think of him as some mastermind that is just taking his time to do things right, but he is simply just spineless.

I would have loved if they would have kept Grenn and co a bit longer, their comradery was one of the best things on the show.

 

Dorne could have been written out after Oberyn's death with natural disaster and never bring Myrcella back either.

Would have been better.

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Dorne has been totally destroyed by GOT, as has Sansa (and via Sansa LF whose crucial actions make now no sense whatsoever), Tyrion has been virtually sanctified. Even with just these three things reversed (especially the first two), the story would make much more sense. Maybe the problem is not that they have cut book material too much but that they have cut it too little: there is still a massive amount of storylines that they have kept (at least in some basic form) that they don't have proper time to spend with almost any of them and so they are forced to do rather senseless shortcuts that make the "game" seem at times rather braindead and pointless...

Edited by hwyl

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11 hours ago, Nocturne said:

 

Honestly i would have skipped Dorne, its a boring plot in the books, and in the tv show they managed to make it worse by hiring one of the worst actresses on the planet for the Sand Snakes. Doran is such a boring character, i know people like to think of him as some mastermind that is just taking his time to do things right, but he is simply just spineless.

I would have loved if they would have kept Grenn and co a bit longer, their comradery was one of the best things on the show.

 

I think the problem is the script, not the actresses. If you have a line like "Bad Pussy" you can make Meryl Streep or Clint Eastwood say it and it will still be bad.

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Have some respect for the source material.  

Keep the characters essentially the same people they are in the books

Make sure their actions are logical and oriented in their character

Don't make the Starks idiots unworthy of being rooted for.  

Don't make the Lannisters the good guys

Don't have themes such as "Honor is stupid and gets you killed", that are complete perversions of what the book is about.  (Yes, it has themes, just the wrong ones!)

Actually, do as Balerion the Cat suggested and get a different producer, since D&D seem to have a poor understanding of what the books are really about.

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On 06/02/2017 at 8:40 PM, T and A said:

Thank you so much for this comment. I was already typing when I read that you had written perfectly what I had in thoughts. It is allways the same discussion about every book that was ever filmed. It happend to The Lord of the Rings and also Harry Potter just to name a few, that became popular. And this "book-purists" just don't seem to understand that Cinema is a complete different art than books. Only cause it sounds cool in the books, does not mean it will work on big screen.

And it is alwaaaaays the same: "this is not the books", "this is not what happend in the books", "the character in the books is so much different", "oh they ruined it", "they cut that...they cut this...". And then of course "this is not an adaption of the books". I am very sorry, If I may sound rude, it is not my intention, but you are not the only people who do this. It is been done, since "Gone with the winds" was made a movie. And the problem are not (allways, there are of course exceptions) the filmmakers. The problem is that those people don't understand that the plot and the script for cinema is based on visualisation not imagination. 

If you bring cinematographic arguments, that is fine. But you can not compare book to tv by same standards. They are two very different arts. And only cause you don't like the show, does not mean that it is not an adaption.  

I hate this lazy defence of bad decisions by the show as just being book purists nitpicking.

 

Most of us that take issue with parts of the adaptation are well aware that changes are needed to make the show work. Plots had to be removed and characters removed, but the biggest issues we have are when plots and characters are included but butchered for no good reason..

The problem is that the adaptation worked well to start, they had complex plots and characters, and slimmed it down while keeping the general feel. Later they dropped the complexity for simplicity and fantasy tropes. This was not the grey world we fell in love with in the show or the books.

 

For example, they have reduces pretty much everything to goodies and baddies at this point. The north has descended into a bunch of evil psychopaths who have unflinching loyality to a maniac. Meanwhile the iron islands plot has just become a joke, with a series of great scenes just literally being two lines of "I will build a big fleet" and "yeah, but I will build a bigger one!", its just a joke.

Previously grey characters have just become black and white, and there is no legitimate reason they could not have spent the same amount of time keeping the murky waters they did so well in the first few seasons.

 

If I would change one thing i would have been have all the  chekov guns in the northern plot to have led somewhere. Be it Johns comment about Bolton's troops loyalty, or the tactical planning before the battle of bastards. Instead it was good v evil as deus ex machina. God forbid a main character win for their own wit rather than divine intervention.

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Posted (edited)

32 minutes ago, farm_ecology said:

I hate this lazy defence of bad decisions by the show as just being book purists nitpicking.

 

Most of us that take issue with parts of the adaptation are well aware that changes are needed to make the show work. Plots had to be removed and characters removed, but the biggest issues we have are when plots and characters are included but butchered for no good reason..

The problem is that the adaptation worked well to start, they had complex plots and characters, and slimmed it down while keeping the general feel. Later they dropped the complexity for simplicity and fantasy tropes. This was not the grey world we fell in love with in the show or the books.

 

For example, they have reduces pretty much everything to goodies and baddies at this point. The north has descended into a bunch of evil psychopaths who have unflinching loyality to a maniac. Meanwhile the iron islands plot has just become a joke, with a series of great scenes just literally being two lines of "I will build a big fleet" and "yeah, but I will build a bigger one!", its just a joke.

Previously grey characters have just become black and white, and there is no legitimate reason they could not have spent the same amount of time keeping the murky waters they did so well in the first few seasons.

 

If I would change one thing i would have been have all the  chekov guns in the northern plot to have led somewhere. Be it Johns comment about Bolton's troops loyalty, or the tactical planning before the battle of bastards. Instead it was good v evil as deus ex machina. God forbid a main character win for their own wit rather than divine intervention.

yes, so true, I agree with your view on how th show has changed to be a caricature of what it was, and it used to be awesome at the beginning.

Edited by Meera of Tarth

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Posted (edited)

1 hour ago, farm_ecology said:

I hate this lazy defence of bad decisions by the show as just being book purists nitpicking.

 

Most of us that take issue with parts of the adaptation are well aware that changes are needed to make the show work. Plots had to be removed and characters removed, but the biggest issues we have are when plots and characters are included but butchered for no good reason..

The problem is that the adaptation worked well to start, they had complex plots and characters, and slimmed it down while keeping the general feel. Later they dropped the complexity for simplicity and fantasy tropes. This was not the grey world we fell in love with in the show or the books.

 

For example, they have reduces pretty much everything to goodies and baddies at this point. The north has descended into a bunch of evil psychopaths who have unflinching loyality to a maniac. Meanwhile the iron islands plot has just become a joke, with a series of great scenes just literally being two lines of "I will build a big fleet" and "yeah, but I will build a bigger one!", its just a joke.

Previously grey characters have just become black and white, and there is no legitimate reason they could not have spent the same amount of time keeping the murky waters they did so well in the first few seasons.

 

If I would change one thing i would have been have all the  chekov guns in the northern plot to have led somewhere. Be it Johns comment about Bolton's troops loyalty, or the tactical planning before the battle of bastards. Instead it was good v evil as deus ex machina. God forbid a main character win for their own wit rather than divine 

 

Edited by T and A

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