Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/5/2017 at 10:00 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I have a few thoughts on some swords, Mostly Nightfall and Dawn.  

I think nightfall is Brienne's family sword. And that the Corsair which dalton Greyjoy took it from got it by stealing it from a previous Evenstar of Tarth. Tarth is an island in the narrow sea an area beset through history by corsairs. So the idea that a corsair could take the Evenstars sword is not so far fetched.  Asha describes the sword as as storied as Red Rain.  So perhaps the sword had a history prior to falling into Greyjoys hands?  I think as well we can answer the question of how Harras Harlaw ended up with the sword. Victarion tells us that Harras was firm friends with Roderik Greyjoy Ashas brother who died so perhaps Harras simply took up his friends sword after he fell and Balon allowed him to keep it. Maybe as a mark of honour for how Harras had fought?  

I'll admit it's a loose theory, and one which can be picked apart by the wording in the world book that Dalton named the sword Nightfall himself. But we can equally say that the words of the Maester are to be taken with a pinch of salt. As he can only write what he himself personally knows about. 

 

Dalton Greyjoy took the sword from a corsair, can't really imagine the Tarth's as corsairs. Still it is an interesting idea. Also I doubt that Dalton asked him the name before killing him. So did he name it?

Also Harras "The Knight" Harlaw is one of the series underappreciated badasses in the series IMO. I wouldn't mind him holding onto it.

Also anyone else think that Red Rain, currently in the possession of House Drumm could have been the sword of House Reyne?

On 2/5/2017 at 11:35 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I have another theory about Darkstar. I think he was a squire at the TOJ. There is a thread archived from a few years ago where I set this theory out. If you ever fancy reading it. But due to the fact I think this, he has to know who Jon really is. And I think he not only knows Jon Snow is Lyanna & Rhaegars' but that he also witnessed their wedding. So I think eventually he will make his way to the Boy LC of the NW and pledge his sword.  Yes, I know DS is a bit of a dick and doesn't come over as a great guy. But I also have to bear in mind that GRRM intended him to be a badass who people would like.  So I like the idea of him ending up by Jons side works, and where most think he'll go to fAegon; because I think he knows Jon is who he is. I think not or that if he does once fAegon is revealed as fake and or dies he'll seek out Jon instead.  As to how he'd end up with the rather fitting Nightfall? I haven't got there yet.  Nor have any idea as to Edric and if he'll become anyone of importance. He's too young to be a warrior in the upcoming battle really.

Always enjoyed the idea that Darkstar was the squire at TOJ. Most dangerous man in Dorne could be what he knows not what he did. Still I expect him to steal Dawn slay Balon Swann and become the next Vulture King. He will later be captured and sent to the Wall parallelling Nymeria sending the former Kings of Dorne to the Wall. That is how Dawn will come to Jon.

On 2/5/2017 at 11:14 AM, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think that Vigilance is an interesting one, when we pair it with the House Words of The Hightowers "We Light The Way" they both sound like statements about their role 

Vigilance: the action or state of keeping careful watch for possible danger or difficulties. Which is interesting. There are a lot of us who feel the House words are revealing as to the roles and purposes of certain Houses. And I think the names of some of the swords are too. We light the way evokes looking out for something too, and a Hightower in itself is a look out. I do wonder if the height of the High Tower is such that a signal might be seen from there? We haven't met any current Hightowers in the story yet. But they certainly seem interesting. Funnily enough. The Hightowers though they claim to be of the First men are suspected by Maester Yandal to actually be descended from seafarers who arrived in Westeros before the first men. And they too live on an Island. 

I always suspect that House Dayne and Hightower were descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn much like the Valyrians.

[Lord Wraith]

On 2/6/2017 at 3:45 PM, Curled Finger said:

Oh no, please no show stuff.  The 12 + 1 only refers to 12 VS swords + Lightbringer.  Differentiates between swords.  

Lady, we would feel cheated if you didn't bring up your Lightbringer stuff--please have at it!

13 now where have I heard that number before... oh yes that Last Hero and his dozen companions. 

Also where do people stand on Dawn being the original Lightbringer?

[Curled Finger]

7 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

13 now where have I heard that number before... oh yes that Last Hero and his dozen companions. 

Also where do people stand on Dawn being the original Lightbringer?

The wonder of a good swords thread is all the amazing roads it takes to many many ideas.   Sword Geeks are clever thinkers.   Anywhere else I would say Dawn is Lightbringer or will be.   It makes sense all the way around.   Here though, are some interesting even compelling reasons for Nightfall, Longclaw and Blackfyre to fit the bill.   You will also find plenty of folks who see no connection between TLH and his dozen companions.  This is fun good stuff.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

8 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Dalton Greyjoy took the sword from a corsair, can't really imagine the Tarth's as corsairs. Still it is an interesting idea. Also I doubt that Dalton asked him the name before killing him. So did he name it?

Also Harras "The Knight" Harlaw is one of the series underappreciated badasses in the series IMO. I wouldn't mind him holding onto it.

Also anyone else think that Red Rain, currently in the possession of House Drumm could have been the sword of House Reyne?

Always enjoyed the idea that Darkstar was the squire at TOJ. Most dangerous man in Dorne could be what he knows not what he did. Still I expect him to steal Dawn slay Balon Swann and become the next Vulture King. He will later be captured and sent to the Wall parallelling Nymeria sending the former Kings of Dorne to the Wall. That is how Dawn will come to Jon.

I always suspect that House Dayne and Hightower were descendants of the Great Empire of the Dawn much like the Valyrians.

 

Yes, I did put in a caveat that the Corsair must have taken it from a Tarth. Though because Tarth is an Island in the narrow sea the idea of a Corsair defeating a Tarth to gain the sword at some point in history is very plausible.

the world book implies he named it himself yes. Though as with many things Maester Yendal says, this could be bollocks. The only hitch I see is that it is not a secret that the Iron Born has Nightfall, and if Tarth had owned it I doubt they'd be happy to allow it to remain in their hands. But who knows? maybe the prospect of bringing the wrath of the Iron Fleet down on their island is enough to make them just let it be?

Agreed, he is hard as fuck.  

 

yes, most people think red Rain was the Reyne's sword.  

 

Thank you.  I love it when people like my pet theory. 

Yes, he is definitely going to beat Balon Swan into a cocked hat. And perhaps take Dawn? I'm not unconvinced of that, nor utterly convinced either, though. I do know dawn has to come into the main story somehow.  I too like the idea of him eventually being sent to the wall, and joining Jon. It is foreshadowed in the world book. But I doubt he'd get to keep dawn if that happens? Unless perhaps Edric is dead and he's the last male Dayne? But surely even then Allyria would be expected to keep it safe at Starfall uuntil she marries and raises a son worthy? Unless of course it is revealed somehow that Allyria is not a Dayne but a Snow? Which I fully buy into btw. 

Did you read all of my posts? I've got a theory about that.  

[Cridefea]

9 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

https://plus.google.com/103688429369383885716/posts/Mtv15uEY6mU

For those of your who either don't believe there really is a timeline of swords appearances and disappearances (except Red Rain--best I could figure is it was picked up sometime before the Reynes were eliminated) or care to have a little study reference...

@Cridefea has been working for days trying to get this silly thing out of my lame excel and into your hands.   She's even edited it to include an appearance of Red Rain--gods love her.  I hope you will find the information useful in your own adventures in finding the swords.   

You're welcome, It's not so easy to post things here!

 

Now, what we know

Brightroar, Vigilance, Lamentation, Orphan-maker and Blackfyre are lost/missing,------> we know the origins but not the fates

Red Rain and Nightfall,-----> we know where are now, but we don't know their origins

Ice, Heartsbane, Longclaw, Lady Forlon ----> we know something more about their story.

Truth----> we don't know so much, no origin no where is it now. But it appears after Nightfall.

Nightfall appears before Vigilance, Lamentation, Orphan-maker and Blackfyre were lost, but after Brightroar has disappeared.

Red rain, we don't know when house Drumm has taken it.

 

About the Red rain color, where did GRRM mention it is colored? Everyone talks about it, but I didn't find it

[Lady Blizzardborn]

13 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

<snip

He have Dayne blood if he is the son of Ashara Dayne and Ned.

I agree that Dragonsteel is not Valyrian steel. One method I enjoyed is that someone found a way to mix obsidian with steel to make it, I do like the idea of adding dragonbone.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna I think there is a high possibility of him wielding Dark Sister. I know that everyone things Arya will because Visenya had it. Visenya is the only woman who did. All other wields were men Daemon the Rogue Prince, Aemon the Dragonknight, and Bloodraven. Also I think Bloodraven has it in his cave.

Having Dayne blood might not be enough though. I think he'd need to have it on his father's side to be considered a Dayne. 

Agreed on both regarding Dark Sister.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

4 hours ago, Cridefea said:

<snip

About the Red rain color, where did GRRM mention it is colored? Everyone talks about it, but I didn't find it

That's a very cool timeline!

I haven't seen anything that confirms Red Rain having a color different from other VS swords. Fantasy Flight Games has it being red in color, but I don't think that counts as canon. My theory is that it's called that because it makes blood rain, and blood is red. Or a play on words for House Reyne, but if it had been theirs, that means that Hilmar the Cunning took it directly from a Reyne before the destruction of their house. 

Fun fact I just found in the wiki: King Loreon I Lannister took a Reyne to wife, so if his line continued then Tywin killed off distant relatives.

But back to the question...we haven't seen any VS weapons with coloring other than the usual rippling smoky color. Tobho Mott is the only person in the story to try adding color and it doesn't work out as well as he'd like. If the Valyrians themselves were more successful in dying the steel, you'd think there'd be more blades of other colors or that Red Rain would be mentioned as extremely special in the text because of the fact that they could afford a more unique, custom sword (cause you know the Valyrians would have charged extra for anything out of the ordinary). Of course none of this means that RR can't be red. It's just that it would be odd in my opinion.

[Lord Wraith]

15 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Yes, I did put in a caveat that the Corsair must have taken it from a Tarth. Though because Tarth is an Island in the narrow sea the idea of a Corsair defeating a Tarth to gain the sword at some point in history is very plausible.

the world book implies he named it himself yes. Though as with many things Maester Yendal says, this could be bollocks. The only hitch I see is that it is not a secret that the Iron Born has Nightfall, and if Tarth had owned it I doubt they'd be happy to allow it to remain in their hands. But who knows? maybe the prospect of bringing the wrath of the Iron Fleet down on their island is enough to make them just let it be?

Agreed, he is hard as fuck.  

 

yes, most people think red Rain was the Reyne's sword.  

 

Thank you.  I love it when people like my pet theory. 

Yes, he is definitely going to beat Balon Swan into a cocked hat. And perhaps take Dawn? I'm not unconvinced of that, nor utterly convinced either, though. I do know dawn has to come into the main story somehow.  I too like the idea of him eventually being sent to the wall, and joining Jon. It is foreshadowed in the world book. But I doubt he'd get to keep dawn if that happens? Unless perhaps Edric is dead and he's the last male Dayne? But surely even then Allyria would be expected to keep it safe at Starfall uuntil she marries and raises a son worthy? Unless of course it is revealed somehow that Allyria is not a Dayne but a Snow? Which I fully buy into btw. 

Did you read all of my posts? I've got a theory about that.  

Well we already had one Sword of the Evening mayhaps its time for another. Also there was another Dayne known as the Starfire. I personally thought it was interesting that we only see a SotM after Nymeria arrives and marries into House Dayne. Alas that is a discussion for another thread. I have many thoughts on the Sword of the Evening.

Tell me more about Allyria Snow...

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Having Dayne blood might not be enough though. I think he'd need to have it on his father's side to be considered a Dayne. 

Agreed on both regarding Dark Sister.

Time will tell. I just see Jon as the Last Hero and I think he will wield Dawn.

[Curled Finger]

9 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a very cool timeline!

I haven't seen anything that confirms Red Rain having a color different from other VS swords. Fantasy Flight Games has it being red in color, but I don't think that counts as canon. My theory is that it's called that because it makes blood rain, and blood is red. Or a play on words for House Reyne, but if it had been theirs, that means that Hilmar the Cunning took it directly from a Reyne before the destruction of their house. 

Fun fact I just found in the wiki: King Loreon I Lannister took a Reyne to wife, so if his line continued then Tywin killed off distant relatives.

But back to the question...we haven't seen any VS weapons with coloring other than the usual rippling smoky color. Tobho Mott is the only person in the story to try adding color and it doesn't work out as well as he'd like. If the Valyrians themselves were more successful in dying the steel, you'd think there'd be more blades of other colors or that Red Rain would be mentioned as extremely special in the text because of the fact that they could afford a more unique, custom sword (cause you know the Valyrians would have charged extra for anything out of the ordinary). Of course none of this means that RR can't be red. It's just that it would be odd in my opinion.

I finally found it.   It's in the Wiki and who knows where that stems from.   Here is the quote from the results for Valyrian Steel:

• Red Rain, the sword of House Drumm, which was stolen by them in a raid.^[19] Given the name and coloring, possibly the ancestral sword of House Reyne.

There may be a case for varying colors.   Orphan-Maker is black.  I've only found Ice and Lady Forlorn said to be "smoky dark gray", so there may yet be some wiggle room in this.   It is a perplexing mystery with such limited information.   And it would be odd to find the swords are really colors instead of varying degrees of gray, but not as odd perhaps as that lousy moonstone in Nightfall's pommel.  All the rest that are mentioned have garnets or rubies.   Curiouser and curiouser.

We have the story of the end of the Reyne's and Tarbecks, but I think there may be more yet.   What of that 3 year-old boy--I can't recall which family he was from, though I'm inclined to say Reyne.   The cleansing occurred in 258, that would make the little boy 45 in the year 300.   I like this for Mance's secret identity for no particular reason other than the mystique.   Who else could he be?   Daario is too young, Euron is too young.  Fortunately there are TONS of mysterious men in this story!  

Thanks for looking at the timeline.   I worked for about a week on it and Cridefea spent about the same amount of time editing and making it visible.  It sure has become a pain trying to share information in this type of format.   Red Rain gave me fits and Cridefea is the one who added the sighting, which I thought made good sense covering bases.   Now if we could just figure out when the Reynes and Drumms were in a conflict at the same time.   Though it does say "raid" in the wiki, so maybe we can a find raid on the Westerlands where the Drumms figure prominently.  Which I promised I did look for.   At this point there is just no telling when the Drumms came into its possession

[Curled Finger]

6 minutes ago, Lord Wraith said:

Well we already had one Sword of the Evening mayhaps its time for another. Also there was another Dayne known as the Starfire. I personally thought it was interesting that we only see a SotM after Nymeria arrives and marries into House Dayne. Alas that is a discussion for another thread. I have many thoughts on the Sword of the Evening.

Tell me more about Allyria Snow...

Time will tell. I just see Jon as the Last Hero and I think he will wield Dawn.

That's another cool thing--everyone has someone.   Bran is my guy in this one.   So I guess that means Hodor gets Dawn.  If Hodor has to go out, I want him going out a super hero.   

[Lord Wraith]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's another cool thing--everyone has someone.   Bran is my guy in this one.   So I guess that means Hodor gets Dawn.  If Hodor has to go out, I want him going out a super hero.   

I am worried about Bran mainly because I don't trust the Children of the Forest. Also what he does to Hodor is troublesome. Still trying to figure out Bloodraven's angle in all of this.

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

6 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

 

Tell me more about Allyria Snow...

 

1

what? you have not ever heard the theory?  (not being facetious there btw) 

OK, so the theory goes thus. 

Allyria Dayne has been betrothed to Beric Dondarrion for some time. Since 294 in fact. It is 298 when our story begins and so she must be quite young. If not she would have wed already by the time Beric is sent to the RL's. So as she is quite young people began supposing that she may in fact not be Ashara's sister at all. But actually her daughter. the one Barristan thinks was stillborn.  And as such would be the daughter of the Stark who dishonoured her. AKA: Brandon. 

 

[Curled Finger]

10 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

I am worried about Bran mainly because I don't trust the Children of the Forest. Also what he does to Hodor is troublesome. Still trying to figure out Bloodraven's angle in all of this.

Bran's whole story is fascinating.  I came to this conclusion by process of elimination.  Dany is a conqueror, Jon is a leader, Arya is a vigilante and Sansa is a survivor.  Since Rickon doesn't seem to play very largely in the story he doesn't count yet.  Until I know more Bran is in the right place at the right time with the right people to get the job done.  @Lost Melnibonean has the idea that Bran has already run across his dozen companions, so it probably started there for me even though I do believe there will be a dozen more with swords.   TLH is going to need the COTF to aid him in some way, regardless of their motives.   Bloodraven has no doubt made mistakes but I think they are just mistakes as like Rhaegar, Bloodraven likely misunderstood his role in the game.  

We talk a lot about how the contents of Robb's will and/or Jon's true parentage may become common knowledge.  Naturally I think about how the swords and heroes could be drawn north.   Bran can reach out in dreams and talking trees to get his point across.  He's already got Theon moving and probably Arya.  When the time comes the companions will need all 12 swords and be compelled to get North for the quest.  I can see Brienne and maybe Jamie on board with some higher calling and little coaxing.  What will it take for the other 10 who may include Sandor Clegane, Sarella Sand, any Tyrell brother, maybe a Dayne, the GreatJon, some BWB, a Wildling or 2 and maybe Lothor Brune or Areo Hotah or Barristan Selmy or Jorah Mormont to understand they've got to go?  And this is just a sampling of my list of potential companions!   Considering the logistics, I think dreams and raven promptings may be the only way to assemble them.   

Of course none of my logic means I'm right. Still I have a good time matching swords to heroes with a little confidence in the reasons.   Any chance you would care to say how you see Jon fitting the bill?   

[Lady Blizzardborn]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I finally found it.   It's in the Wiki and who knows where that stems from.   Here is the quote from the results for Valyrian Steel:

• Red Rain, the sword of House Drumm, which was stolen by them in a raid.^[19] Given the name and coloring, possibly the ancestral sword of House Reyne.

There may be a case for varying colors.   Orphan-Maker is black.  I've only found Ice and Lady Forlorn said to be "smoky dark gray", so there may yet be some wiggle room in this.   It is a perplexing mystery with such limited information.   And it would be odd to find the swords are really colors instead of varying degrees of gray, but not as odd perhaps as that lousy moonstone in Nightfall's pommel.  All the rest that are mentioned have garnets or rubies.   Curiouser and curiouser.

<snip

The only thing that bothers me about the wiki quote (which I had seen before) is that there's no attribution of source on the part about the coloring. We've got a footnote for it being the sword of House Drumm because they stole it during a raid, but no footnote indicating the coloring.

However, your next paragraph makes sense. I'm guessing to get a sword that's really well-colored in something other than gray/black, you'd have to pay more. House Reyne with their mines presumably had the kind of money to do that. Which makes me wonder if Brightroar would have had fun coloring too.

[hiemal]

14 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

, but not as odd perhaps as that lousy moonstone in Nightfall's pommel.  All the rest that are mentioned have garnets or rubies.   Curiouser and curiouser.

More reason to tie Nightfall and Dawn, imho. Moonstones could mimic the pale blade of the Sword of the Morning, perhaps as opposed to the typical blood-ties of the more traditional VS swords even if the blade itself is the usual stock.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

15 hours ago, Lord Wraith said:

Well we already had one Sword of the Evening mayhaps its time for another. Also there was another Dayne known as the Starfire. I personally thought it was interesting that we only see a SotM after Nymeria arrives and marries into House Dayne. Alas that is a discussion for another thread. I have many thoughts on the Sword of the Evening.

Tell me more about Allyria Snow...

Time will tell. I just see Jon as the Last Hero and I think he will wield Dawn.

That might be possible without him being part-Dayne though. If Dawn was originally Ice of House Stark, given to the Daynes for safekeeping, then during a new Long Night it should go back to House Stark so that a member of that house can wield it to defeat the Others. If Robb's will truly did legitimize Jon, then it's arguable that he is now a Stark.

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, hiemal said:

More reason to tie Nightfall and Dawn, imho. Moonstones could mimic the pale blade of the Sword of the Morning, perhaps as opposed to the typical blood-ties of the more traditional VS swords even if the blade itself is the usual stock.

You could not be more right, Brother.  The moonstone made me think of Maynard Plumm and we have our suspicions about his secret identity.  The possible ties to Dawn are so clear yet so hard to be absolutely positive about.   Riddles within riddles.   However, I do think we have this small piece of information for a reason.  

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

The only thing that bothers me about the wiki quote (which I had seen before) is that there's no attribution of source on the part about the coloring. We've got a footnote for it being the sword of House Drumm because they stole it during a raid, but no footnote indicating the coloring.

However, your next paragraph makes sense. I'm guessing to get a sword that's really well-colored in something other than gray/black, you'd have to pay more. House Reyne with their mines presumably had the kind of money to do that. Which makes me wonder if Brightroar would have had fun coloring too.

I was surprised how much information is credited to board games and video games.  I bought the telltale set because I read there were hints to the overall story in it.   Of course, I didn't get very far and sort of lost interest.  In the old thread someone brought up some sword from the last game.   I can't tell you how absurdly angry that made me.   Not at the poster, but at the audacity of the introduction of extraneous intel dedicated book readers wouldn't be privy to.   There is something in that premise that feels very much like cheating to me.   I try to keep the anger in check and enjoy the other franchise tellings for what they are.   And now I suspect it's invaded the Wiki I use for fact checking.  I'm so sorry I brought Red Rain's coloring up because there was no attribution.  

I think if there were distinct blade or varied stone colors we could connect swords to a lot more than we can now.  However I am curious as to how Tywin got this crazy idea he could make a colored blade.  I mean, he wasn't a particularly colorful guy.  I always assumed it was because Red Rain was in fact red.   This also leads me to believe Red Rain came well after Brightroar, as a custom job maybe, to tweak the Lannisters just a bit more.  It's also curious that there is no mention of Red Rain in the World Book account of Tywin's small scale genocide in the Westerlands.   

[hiemal]

12 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

You could not be more right, Brother.  The moonstone made me think of Maynard Plumm and we have our suspicions about his secret identity.  The possible ties to Dawn are so clear yet so hard to be absolutely positive about.   Riddles within riddles.   However, I do think we have this small piece of information for a reason.  

It is held by a knight in land that doesn't honor the Seven (aside from a few like Volmark I think?). I wish we knew more House Harlaw. Rodrick certainly seems to buck the Ironborn mold. What is the truth here?

[aryagonnakill#2]

46 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

I was surprised how much information is credited to board games and video games.  I bought the telltale set because I read there were hints to the overall story in it.   Of course, I didn't get very far and sort of lost interest.  In the old thread someone brought up some sword from the last game.   I can't tell you how absurdly angry that made me.   Not at the poster, but at the audacity of the introduction of extraneous intel dedicated book readers wouldn't be privy to.   There is something in that premise that feels very much like cheating to me.   I try to keep the anger in check and enjoy the other franchise tellings for what they are.   And now I suspect it's invaded the Wiki I use for fact checking.  I'm so sorry I brought Red Rain's coloring up because there was no attribution.  

I think if there were distinct blade or varied stone colors we could connect swords to a lot more than we can now.  However I am curious as to how Tywin got this crazy idea he could make a colored blade.  I mean, he wasn't a particularly colorful guy.  I always assumed it was because Red Rain was in fact red.   This also leads me to believe Red Rain came well after Brightroar, as a custom job maybe, to tweak the Lannisters just a bit more.  It's also curious that there is no mention of Red Rain in the World Book account of Tywin's small scale genocide in the Westerlands.   

This seems to just imply that the blade was stolen before that time.  Perhaps during/after the DOD when the Ironborn were raiding the Westerlands with impunity.