Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[Curled Finger]

Swords.  Magic Swords.  Frickin Valyrian Steel  Swords.  Lost, found and missing.  Swords passed from mother or father to son.  Swords inherited, married, stolen and reclaimed.  2 Handed great swords, 1.5 hands bastard swords and 1 hand long swords.  Swords of black and smoky grey and black with red ripples.  Lion’s head pommels, wolf’s head pommels, pommels with rubies, garnets and moonstone.  Swords wielded by legendary fighters like Aegon & Visenya  Targaryen, Bold Jon Roxton, Ser Willum Royce,  Moredo Rogare  and Ser Gwane Corbray of the Kingsguard.  

There are 15 named VS swords in ASOIAF.  Three of these swords are lost forever, Ice, Brightroar and Lamentation.  I believe 12 VS swords are required to accomplish the purpose for the swords.  Sadly it means that Ice will not be reforged but will fulfill its destiny as both Oathkeeper and Widow’s Wail which is convenient for those of us who do see something special in that 12 + 1 logic behind the swords.  Oathkeeper was given to Brienne of Tarth leaving the Lannisters without a VS sword twice.   Was Jamie thumbing his nose at Tywin or bowing low to his promise to Cat?   Widow’s Wail is at the Red Keep, presumably set aside for Tommen.  In that WW was originally bestowed upon Joffrey, I consider her to be a Baratheon sword. 

Both the Targaryen swords are hidden as well as black bladed Orphan-Maker, Lyseni  Truth and Vigilance, the Hightower sword.   The only swords we currently have in play are Longclaw, Lady Forlorn, OK & WW, Heartsbane, Nightfall and Red Rain.   More than what we started with but not all that is required.   We think we know where the Targ swords may be and some of us still think the Hightowers may have held on to Vigilance.  We can’t count them until they show up. 

It’s been my pleasure to host and read some wonderful ideas regarding the swords—their origins, purposes and histories.  I don’t have to agree with a premise to be awed by it.   It’s no secret that I am a supporter of a revisit of The Last Hero and his dozen companions quest.   A dozen companions being heroes within our tale who will carry all our swords to battle.   But when has being sure of anything made anyone right about anything in our story?     

What I am sure of is that The Starks, Mormonts, Royces, Targaryens and Lannisters do not have swords now.  Not magic VS swords, at any rate. (Jon Snow may or may not possess Longclaw at this point)  Will Iron Born in the Shields be able to hang on to their appropriated Valyrian Steel?  Lyn Corbray is an unlikely contender to help save the world, so I think he’s out. Unless Randyll Tarly can get with the program I don’t think he will hang on to Heartsbane, but it’s not like Sam can actually wield it.  That huge sword would require a big, strong man to heave it about effectively.  Just as a woman or child even could wield Dark Sister and Widow’s Wail, though I don’t see Tommen waddling off to fight monsters anytime soon.   A bastard sword is still a long long sword and I would imagine a tall and strong person is required to swing it about too.  I haven’t completely thrown in with the Blackfyre is a bastard sword camp, but there is no denying it is a 1.5 hands sword so let’s assume it is configured exactly like Longclaw for the purposes of this discussion. Longswords aren’t exactly standard and though Brienne is a big and very strong woman I don’t know that her dimensions would be necessary for an average woman to swing a long sword effectively, but I do think it requires some height.   I bring this up because so many seem to think little Dany will have a sword.  Fine, let’s make sure she gets a sword she can actually wield.   She just can’t have Heartsbane, Longclaw or Blackfyre.  

As promised, here is a place for your thoughts on Valyrian Steel Swords.  Let everyone know why they’re in the story, what sword a hero belongs with, if they’re dragon steel, if they are secret Targs or some other identity.  Who has the swords we haven’t yet seen?  Where are they? Who will get the swords we do know about (I’m not 100% sure Brienne has OK anymore…)?  What color is Red Rain?   Do the stones in the pommel mean anything?  Do the original owners of all the swords mean anything?  What constitutes Valyrian Steel, spells or dragon flame?   Are Lamentation and Brightroar really gone?  What’s the point of 16 named VS swords if they aren’t?   How does Dawn fit into any of this since it’s not VS?

Let it all hang out. I won’t be arguing any points, but promise to make correction if I know it’s needed.  Mostly I want to have the open discussion.   I’ve quoted more than 1 of you in previous sword topics.  I hope you will take this opportunity to lay your ideas out yourself.    Since we’ve got a cool new way to look up SSMs let’s use this chance to play with it.  The only restriction here is this is a book-based topic.   Please don’t use events in the GOT show as proof of your position.   Let's have some fun!

[Yaya]

thanks for the topic CF !

Valyrian Steel is seperate from 'Dragon Forged' per the following quote. 
(at least this is how I read it. )

" A Game of Thrones - Daenerys X
"Ser Jorah Mormont,..., one day you shall have from my hands a longsword like none the world has ever seen, dragon-forged and made of Valyrian steel. And I would ask for your oath as well." "

I need to know if we should believe that these are two separate technologies?
 

[Curled Finger]

Hi Yaya!  Thanks for the quote.  I think they are separate, as your quote illustrates.   The IT is dragon flamed, but that doesn't make it VS.  Oh, here's one my buddy Shellie and I were discussing just yesterday.   I tend to distinguish our black rocks as "oily" from "fused".  It is stated in the World Book, I believe, that the "fused" rock was stone actually melted by the heat of dragon fire.   I've understood Valyrian Steel to actually be a full on recipe of multiple ingredients requiring dragon flame to forge within the mold.   My epiphany yesterday is that the molds for the swords were made of obsidian since I've always thought obsidian was part of the recipe but can't seem to cite it.    It will be interesting to see what anyone else has to say about this.   Thanks for a really good opening topic within our topic.    

[The Hoare]

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

  That huge sword would require a big, strong man to heave it about effectively.  Just as a woman or child even could wield Dark Sister and Widow’s Wail, though I don’t see Tommen waddling off to fight monsters anytime soon.   A bastard sword is still a long long sword and I would imagine a tall and strong person is required to swing it about too. 

 Actualy, swords are quite light and a average man could easily wield it. The zweihänder(a very long german sword) rarely weighted more than 4kg.

VS is also described as being lighter than normal steel.

 

About the fabrication of VS, I'm inclined to say that it was forged with magic and dragon flame. Dragons seens to be quite magical by themselves.

[Praetor Xyn]

15 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

 Actualy, swords are quite light and a average man could easily wield it. The zweihänder(a very long german sword) rarely weighted more than 4kg.

VS is also described as being lighter than normal steel.

 

About the fabrication of VS, I'm inclined to say that it was forged with magic and dragon flame. Dragons seens to be quite magical by themselves.

I don't think it's an issue of weight but size. The way Ice is described it just doesn't seem practical for combat, which is why Ned only used it for executions.

[Praetor Xyn]

There's a theory that Daenerys will have Dragon use dragon fire to break apart the Iron Throne and that the swords comprising it are either Valerian steel or Dragon steel if those end up being two different things, and that these 1,000 swords will be instrumental in the battle against the Others.

Another theory and one I subscribe to is that Dawn is Lightbringer, the sword of Azor Ahai, and that Jon Snow will be the next Sword of the Morning.

[The Hoare]

14 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I don't think it's an issue of weight but size. The way Ice is described it just doesn't seem practical for combat, which is why Ned only used it for executions.

The real zweihänder is around 180cm, bigger than most people during the Middle and Early Modern age.

Also, Ice is described by Bran in AGOT as being taller than Robb who was 14 at time, which shouldn't mean much.

[Praetor Xyn]

20 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

The real zweihänder is around 180cm, bigger than most people during the Middle and Early Modern age.

Also, Ice is described by Bran in AGOT as being taller than Robb who was 14 at time, which shouldn't mean much.

I wasn't saying it was impossible, just impractical. If your sword has a nearly 6 foot blade, it gives you a tremendous range advantage but if someone gets inside your guard you likely won't be able to move a sword that size fast enough to block reliably.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

50 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

There's a theory that Daenerys will have Dragon use dragon fire to break apart the Iron Throne and that the swords comprising it are either Valerian steel or Dragon steel if those end up being two different things, and that these 1,000 swords will be instrumental in the battle against the Others.

Another theory and one I subscribe to is that Dawn is Lightbringer, the sword of Azor Ahai, and that Jon Snow will be the next Sword of the Morning.

Can Jon be the new SotM when he's not a member of House Dayne?  I may actually be able to answer that with one my theories. Dawn is not Dawn. Dawn is the original Ice that House Stark "lost."  Cause really, how do you lose your ancestral sword? If somebody beat you and took it, they'd be bragging. If it was dropped overboard, there'd be a story about how the idiot who lost it was punished or otherwise mocked as say The King who Dropped. And nobody misplaces an ancestral sword either.

OR it was the sword of The Great Other and he was required to give it up to men when his side lost the war, or reached a peace treaty. In either case, at some point the sword was given to House Dayne for safekeeping because they had the southernmost keep (at the time) in Westeros, and if the Others ever get that far south, they're all done for anyway.  

If Dawn is actually Ice, then Jon being half-Stark could conceivably wield the sword. It's not like Bran or Rickon can do so, and Jon is the only other Stark of any sort left who could wield a sword of that size. Please understand I'm not talking about weight but length. Different length swords require different skills.

 

On to more fun...

I submit the possibility that Dragonsteel is NOT the same as VS. I suggest instead that dragonsteel is weapons made out of dragonbone, which is described in book or scroll Tyrion reads at Winterfell as lighter than steel, more flexible than steel, black due to high iron content, and perhaps most importantly, impervious to flame. Imagine a weapon that is light and flexible, magical in origin, and can be set on fire without burning. That's one that could potentially kill both Others and wights. There's really no point to including this information in the series unless it's going to be important, and Tyrion of all characters is the one who knows it. Whatever book he was reading when he found that information is probably gone, burned in Ramsay's Winterfell bonfire. We know from GRRM that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel, so why put that in there? The one dragonbone bow in the series could be important, but more so than magic swords? 

Oh, and guess who among the merchants of Planetos deals in dragonbone? Illyrio Mopatis.

We haven't yet seen how VS takes to being set on fire, but it of course could also be extremely effective against both Others and wights. I just don't think there's enough VS in the world to equip enough people to stop the Others unless it's a situation where you kill the top dog and the rest of them surrender, even then if we've got 13 people setting out to take out the head honcho, the rest of the people still need to be armed to keep the Others from overrunning the world while our brave 13 Last Last Heroes go about their mission.

 

What will Dany find in Asshai that she won't find in Qarth? Truth. Not just true information, but the sword of House Rogare. And as House Rogare no longer seems to exist, any living Targaryen or Blackfyre at this point has a decent claim to that sword. Larra Rogare was mother to Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragonknight. So Dany, Jon, Aegon, missing random theorized twins, and other possible Blackfyre claimants, could all use that particular VS weapon. Nobody has the best claim, so any of them could have it.

 

If it turns out Euron has been to Valyria, he may have found Brightroar.

 

ETA: I wouldn't count Corbray and Lady Forlorn out. Ser Lyn might not last the series, and if he does well The George likes using unlikely heroes. Look at how Jaime turned around.

[The Hoare]

12 minutes ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I wasn't saying it was impossible, just impractical. If your sword has a nearly 6 foot blade, it gives you a tremendous range advantage but if someone gets inside your guard you likely won't be able to move a sword that size fast enough to block reliably.

That's why it has a long blade... To keep your enemies far from you.

That was the advantage that Oberyn had agains't the Mountain.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, The Hoare said:

 Actualy, swords are quite light and a average man could easily wield it. The zweihänder(a very long german sword) rarely weighted more than 4kg.

VS is also described as being lighter than normal steel.

 

About the fabrication of VS, I'm inclined to say that it was forged with magic and dragon flame. Dragons seens to be quite magical by themselves.

Ah, Hoare,  kg...hmm.   I read that a great sword weighs about 4 pounds for those of us who haven't used the metric system since 4th grade.  My disclaimer was more for folks who think Sansa could manage Heartsbane and the like.   I'm pretty sure Heartsbane is comparable to Ice, which was as tall as Robb, a teen aged boy, so maybe 5'6" long or thereabouts.   If you have a minute to translate that into metric measurements I'm sure it would help lots of folks.   

I think you're right about the making of VS.   I would add blood magic (a sacrifice???) and obsidian in there somewhere.   I'm not sure there is a real difference between dragon forged and dragon flamed other than the end product.    

Bad pun coming up...thanks for weighing in!  

[Praetor Xyn]

20 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Can Jon be the new SotM when he's not a member of House Dayne?  I may actually be able to answer that with one my theories. Dawn is not Dawn. Dawn is the original Ice that House Stark "lost."  Cause really, how do you lose your ancestral sword? If somebody beat you and took it, they'd be bragging. If it was dropped overboard, there'd be a story about how the idiot who lost it was punished or otherwise mocked as say The King who Dropped. And nobody misplaces an ancestral sword either.

OR it was the sword of The Great Other and he was required to give it up to men when his side lost the war, or reached a peace treaty. In either case, at some point the sword was given to House Dayne for safekeeping because they had the southernmost keep (at the time) in Westeros, and if the Others ever get that far south, they're all done for anyway.  

If Dawn is actually Ice, then Jon being half-Stark could conceivably wield the sword. It's not like Bran or Rickon can do so, and Jon is the only other Stark of any sort left who could wield a sword of that size. Please understand I'm not talking about weight but length. Different length swords require different skills.

 

On to more fun...

I submit the possibility that Dragonsteel is NOT the same as VS. I suggest instead that dragonsteel is weapons made out of dragonbone, which is described in book or scroll Tyrion reads at Winterfell as lighter than steel, more flexible than steel, black due to high iron content, and perhaps most importantly, impervious to flame. Imagine a weapon that is light and flexible, magical in origin, and can be set on fire without burning. That's one that could potentially kill both Others and wights. There's really no point to including this information in the series unless it's going to be important, and Tyrion of all characters is the one who knows it. Whatever book he was reading when he found that information is probably gone, burned in Ramsay's Winterfell bonfire. We know from GRRM that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel, so why put that in there? The one dragonbone bow in the series could be important, but more so than magic swords? 

Oh, and guess who among the merchants of Planetos deals in dragonbone? Illyrio Mopatis.

We haven't yet seen how VS takes to being set on fire, but it of course could also be extremely effective against both Others and wights. I just don't think there's enough VS in the world to equip enough people to stop the Others unless it's a situation where you kill the top dog and the rest of them surrender, even then if we've got 13 people setting out to take out the head honcho, the rest of the people still need to be armed to keep the Others from overrunning the world while our brave 13 Last Last Heroes go about their mission.

 

What will Dany find in Asshai that she won't find in Qarth? Truth. Not just true information, but the sword of House Rogare. And as House Rogare no longer seems to exist, any living Targaryen or Blackfyre at this point has a decent claim to that sword. Larra Rogare was mother to Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragonknight. So Dany, Jon, Aegon, missing random theorized twins, and other possible Blackfyre claimants, could all use that particular VS weapon. Nobody has the best claim, so any of them could have it.

 

If it turns out Euron has been to Valyria, he may have found Brightroar.

 

ETA: I wouldn't count Corbray and Lady Forlorn out. Ser Lyn might not last the series, and if he does well The George likes using unlikely heroes. Look at how Jaime turned around.

I have seen the theory that Dawn is Ice, and after the 13th Lord commander was defeated the Starks gave the Daynes custody of it from their shame until it was needed again to stop the next Long Night. I like that one too.

As for Jon being the next SotM there was a series of compelling threads about it, but to answer your question I think it highly likely Jon has Dayne blood, R+L=I or not. Personally I hope that parentage theory is wrong because it seems too boring.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Praetor Xyn said:

I don't think it's an issue of weight but size. The way Ice is described it just doesn't seem practical for combat, which is why Ned only used it for executions.

Definitely.

[Curled Finger]

28 minutes ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Can Jon be the new SotM when he's not a member of House Dayne?  I may actually be able to answer that with one my theories. Dawn is not Dawn. Dawn is the original Ice that House Stark "lost."  Cause really, how do you lose your ancestral sword? If somebody beat you and took it, they'd be bragging. If it was dropped overboard, there'd be a story about how the idiot who lost it was punished or otherwise mocked as say The King who Dropped. And nobody misplaces an ancestral sword either.

OR it was the sword of The Great Other and he was required to give it up to men when his side lost the war, or reached a peace treaty. In either case, at some point the sword was given to House Dayne for safekeeping because they had the southernmost keep (at the time) in Westeros, and if the Others ever get that far south, they're all done for anyway.  

If Dawn is actually Ice, then Jon being half-Stark could conceivably wield the sword. It's not like Bran or Rickon can do so, and Jon is the only other Stark of any sort left who could wield a sword of that size. Please understand I'm not talking about weight but length. Different length swords require different skills.

 

On to more fun...

I submit the possibility that Dragonsteel is NOT the same as VS. I suggest instead that dragonsteel is weapons made out of dragonbone, which is described in book or scroll Tyrion reads at Winterfell as lighter than steel, more flexible than steel, black due to high iron content, and perhaps most importantly, impervious to flame. Imagine a weapon that is light and flexible, magical in origin, and can be set on fire without burning. That's one that could potentially kill both Others and wights. There's really no point to including this information in the series unless it's going to be important, and Tyrion of all characters is the one who knows it. Whatever book he was reading when he found that information is probably gone, burned in Ramsay's Winterfell bonfire. We know from GRRM that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel, so why put that in there? The one dragonbone bow in the series could be important, but more so than magic swords? 

Oh, and guess who among the merchants of Planetos deals in dragonbone? Illyrio Mopatis.

We haven't yet seen how VS takes to being set on fire, but it of course could also be extremely effective against both Others and wights. I just don't think there's enough VS in the world to equip enough people to stop the Others unless it's a situation where you kill the top dog and the rest of them surrender, even then if we've got 13 people setting out to take out the head honcho, the rest of the people still need to be armed to keep the Others from overrunning the world while our brave 13 Last Last Heroes go about their mission.

 

What will Dany find in Asshai that she won't find in Qarth? Truth. Not just true information, but the sword of House Rogare. And as House Rogare no longer seems to exist, any living Targaryen or Blackfyre at this point has a decent claim to that sword. Larra Rogare was mother to Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragonknight. So Dany, Jon, Aegon, missing random theorized twins, and other possible Blackfyre claimants, could all use that particular VS weapon. Nobody has the best claim, so any of them could have it.

 

If it turns out Euron has been to Valyria, he may have found Brightroar.

 

ETA: I wouldn't count Corbray and Lady Forlorn out. Ser Lyn might not last the series, and if he does well The George likes using unlikely heroes. Look at how Jaime turned around.

It's Lady B!   Hello and thanks so much for depositing your Truth idea here.   You are the originator of that 1 and it's great to see it in your own words...again!  Rereading your fun facts I am reminded of many many ideas I read at your knee when I was a wee lurker.   Shellie and I were just discussing dragon bone as a constituent to VS yesterday--you will have to join us someday!  

I am of a mind that Lamentation was melted in the dragon pits.   What else could cause a VS sword to melt?  If Lamentation has survived and/or Euron has found Brightroar (because if anyone would find it would be Euron without doubt) what is the point of having 15 swords?  Are you thinking others either won't be found or possibly destroyed?   How about if Euron has Truth?  Ick.  

Jamie certainly has turned around and he was sure unlikeable for at least 1 book.   But Lyn Corbray?   Ah geez, I guess we will have to wait and see, Lady.   I don't use emojis but if I did you would have the little blue guy bowing down to you.   You always did and still ROCK!  

[The Hoare]

9 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah, Hoare,  kg...hmm.   I read that a great sword weighs about 4 pounds for those of us who haven't used the metric system since 4th grade.  My disclaimer was more for folks who think Sansa could manage Heartsbane and the like.   I'm pretty sure Heartsbane is comparable to Ice, which was as tall as Robb, a teen aged boy, so maybe 5'6" long or thereabouts.   If you have a minute to translate that into metric measurements I'm sure it would help lots of folks.   

I think you're right about the making of VS.   I would add blood magic (a sacrifice???) and obsidian in there somewhere.   I'm not sure there is a real difference between dragon forged and dragon flamed other than the end product.    

Bad pun coming up...thanks for weighing in!  

Well, 4 kg is almost 9 pounds. But I agree that most greatswords are lighter, the zweihänder was a exception. That sword would be a bit less than 6 foot, 5'11" or something too.

 

About the VS forging. The qohoriks are rumored to sacrifice people to reforge VS, so it's possible that to forge VS from nothing some sacrifices are necessary.

[Curled Finger]

33 minutes ago, The Hoare said:

Well, 4 kg is almost 9 pounds. But I agree that most greatswords are lighter, the zweihänder was a exception. That sword would be a bit less than 6 foot, 5'11" or something too.

 

About the VS forging. The qohoriks are rumored to sacrifice people to reforge VS, so it's possible that to forge VS from nothing some sacrifices are necessary.

That's right, they are!   And thanks for the conversion.   Back in the day we Americans learned metric system in preparation for the day we would commonly employ the system.   Outside of a 2 liter bottle of soda, I haven't seen it catch on for the most part over here.   

[Curled Finger]

Come on, @Leo of House Cartel.   I see you there.   Copy and paste your excellent intel on the Ironborn swords in here.   This was created for you as much as anyone else, Brother! 

[Leo of House Cartel]

Que pasa CF? Great topic as always my friend. Sorry I took so long.

It's great that you view Widows Wail as a Baratheon sword. I hadn't considered it, but as WW was forged from Ice, and Robert and Ned were as brothers, the idea of Widows Wail being a "Storm Blade" is tragically beautiful.

I've got a few points to make about The Valyrian Steel Dagger With The Dragonbone Hilt.

Of all the Valyrian weaponry we see, Littlefingers dagger is an island unto itself. To the best of my knowledge, no other VS sword we see has a Dragonbone Hilt, which is strange to me. We never hear of Blackfyre having such a hilt (although it is certainly possible) and even fabled Dawn never has such a description attatched.

The Valyrian people are well know for their artistic flair when it comes to crafting. From melting and moulding stone buildings into the shapes of all manner of ghouls and goblins to using a special type of snail to dye their garments, the people of the Freehold seemed to put alot of stock in the visual power of their artifacts. Now I'm not saying VS swords such as Lady Forlorn are humdrum, far from it, but I have to wonder why we don't see more use of a specialised hilt. 

We know Dany was gifted a Dragonbone bow, so it would seem the Valyrians had no problem using the remains of their "blood" as a resource for building weaponry. Dragonbone is said to turn as hard as iron over time, so I'd imagine such a material wouldn't hinder a sword any more than the standard materials used in hilt making. And if it did, why would someone make a close quarters tool like a dagger from it? 

One element to consider is the blood of Petyr Baelish.

Petyrs great grandfather was a Bravosi sellsword who came to Westeros and served Lord Corbray. Could the dagger perhaps be a family heirloom? As Bravos was formed by escaped slaves from Valyria, one would imagine the people of Bravos have been privvy to the use of VS over the years. If the sellsword in question was skilled enough to gain employment with the presumeably VS weilding Lord Corbray, I imagine he would have been quite the warrior. One has to wonder why the Corbrays sent to Bravos for a sellsword, and what battles the man took part in.

If Littlefingers great grandsire was talented enough to gain employment with a foreign lord, I wonder where he got his training? Could he be connected to another element of warfare in Bravos, The House of Black and White?

The Kindly Man hints that the first Faceless Man somehow helped bring down the Valyrians (perhaps even causing the doom). The Faceless men still exist today and are still spoken of in hushed tones by the people of Bravos. I wonder then, just how much Valyrian steel has passed through the titans lagoon over time? 

As the item in question is a dagger, better suited for a more personal touch, I wonder how well a Faceless Man would use such a weapon? I'd imagine they would fair better than "The Winterfell Catspaw", and it is worth considering that the first time we see the dagger, it is being weilded by another kind of "assassin". 

It's certainly a bit far fetchedI'd love to hear your thoughts!

[Scorpion92]

I think the trope that sword Dawn must be wielded by only House Dayne members or if it is really original Ice then by Jon only is kind of ignoring one fact: whoever wields the sword must be a worthy knight so he can earn the title Sword of the Morning. If a person was not that honorable, then sometimes the wielder will be known as Sword of the Evening, ehich ties to dual symbolism of Venus and the switch between night/day like on house sigil of House Tarth.

I absolutely agree with those that say Jon will be the final wielder of Dawn, there are many textual foreshadowings for it. But there is one problem: Jon has Longclaw in the story, so the only way Jon can obtain Dawn as his sword is if he loses or breaks Longclaw (just like Last Hero broke his sword in the tale).

With that said, I see the person wielding dawn prior Jon as having several requirements, so to speak:

1) needs to be story connected to House Dayne and Dawn and some argue to Kingsguard due to Ser Arthur's own affiliation

2) needs to be a knight with dual symbolism of morning and evening - having both honorable as well as despicable traits, since there were several members bearing the title of Sword of the Morning and the Evening

Two known Daynes that we have in the story, Edric and Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne, do not fit the criteria I provided. Granted, I see a scenario where Darkstar will wield it temporarily and earn a spot on Aegon's Kingsguard since we already have Arianne soon to be deeply involved there.

But these two are not long for this story in my view.

So the only legitimate candidate to wield Dawn is Jaime Lannister. Here is why I think so:

1) Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, was the one who knighted Jaime, and Dawn itself touched Kingslayer on his shoulders, in a way, symbolically, you could say Arthur Dayne and Dawn chose Jaime as wielder successor. And Jaime is a Kingsguard just like Arthur and soon to be Darkstar.

2) Jaime is a soiled knight who has dual morning/evening symbolism which makes his character that much interesting, we know of his great and dishonorable actions, so he fits this to a T.

3) his dream about Casterly Rock dungeons with Brienne fighting Rhaegar and Kingsguard. His sword lights up in blue flame, not red and orange, but blue. If I see any sword lighting up in such flame, it is a sword made of "pale milkglass", not "black dragonsteel".

4) I see him fighting Jon Snow in this story as inevitable. He has parallels to Aemon Dragonknight, who admitted that he never faced a better warrior than Lord Cregan Stark, and he also has parallels to Criston "Kingmaker" Cole. "Kingslayer" and "Kingmaker" are dual symbolisms as morning and evening are. Jaime can repair his name and honor forever once he becomes Kingmaker.

Besides, this story started from a conflict between a wolf and a lion, it is destined to end once these two beasts put aside the family dispute in order for the realm to recover post Long Night, a classic anti-war message from George.

And Jaime is a white cloak, while Jon is a black cloak, another dual symbolisms. If theories about Jon and Jaime/Cersei having Targaryen blood turn out to be true, then you have anotner buildup for Jaime/Jon conflict - one is a Targaryen bastard who was raised as Lannister trueborn, while another is a Targaryen trueborn raised as a Stark bastard.

All in all, I expect Jaime breaking Jon's Longclaw with Dawn in a battle, but once Jon proves his Targaryen heritage (skinchanging and mounting Drogon), Jaime will coronate Jon (Kingmaker action) with Robb's crown as King of Westeros and give him Dawn as the new ancestral sword of a new dynasty. House Dayne will be gone by that point by the events (Aegon and Darkstar losing against Dany; Edric establishing himself as new outlaw in Red Mountains as Vulture King and fighting for smallfolk nearby and eventually dying) so the sword can be passed to Jon without any other claimants to it.

 

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

t's great that you view Widows Wail as a Baratheon sword. I hadn't considered it, but as WW was forged from Ice, and Robert and Ned were as brothers, the idea of Widows Wail being a "Storm Blade" is tragically beautiful.

I've got a few points to make about The Valyrian Steel Dagger With The Dragonbone Hilt.

Of all the Valyrian weaponry we see, Littlefingers dagger is an island unto itself. To the best of my knowledge, no other VS sword we see has a Dragonbone Hilt, which is strange to me. We never hear of Blackfyre having such a hilt (although it is certainly possible) and even fabled Dawn never has such a description attatched.

The Valyrian people are well know for their artistic flair when it comes to crafting. From melting and moulding stone buildings into the shapes of all manner of ghouls and goblins to using a special type of snail to dye their garments, the people of the Freehold seemed to put alot of stock in the visual power of their artifacts. Now I'm not saying VS swords such as Lady Forlorn are humdrum, far from it, but I have to wonder why we don't see more use of a specialised hilt. 

We know Dany was gifted a Dragonbone bow, so it would seem the Valyrians had no problem using the remains of their "blood" as a resource for building weaponry. Dragonbone is said to turn as hard as iron over time, so I'd imagine such a material wouldn't hinder a sword any more than the standard materials used in hilt making. And if it did, why would someone make a close quarters tool like a dagger from it? 

One element to consider is the blood of Petyr Baelish.

Petyrs great grandfather was a Bravosi sellsword who came to Westeros and served Lord Corbray. Could the dagger perhaps be a family heirloom? As Bravos was formed by escaped slaves from Valyria, one would imagine the people of Bravos have been privvy to the use of VS over the years. If the sellsword in question was skilled enough to gain employment with the presumeably VS weilding Lord Corbray, I imagine he would have been quite the warrior. One has to wonder why the Corbrays sent to Bravos for a sellsword, and what battles the man took part in.

If Littlefingers great grandsire was talented enough to gain employment with a foreign lord, I wonder where he got his training? Could he be connected to another element of warfare in Bravos, The House of Black and White?

The Kindly Man hints that the first Faceless Man somehow helped bring down the Valyrians (perhaps even causing the doom). The Faceless men still exist today and are still spoken of in hushed tones by the people of Bravos. I wonder then, just how much Valyrian steel has passed through the titans lagoon over time? 

As the item in question is a dagger, better suited for a more personal touch, I wonder how well a Faceless Man would use such a weapon? I'd imagine they would fair better than "The Winterfell Catspaw", and it is worth considering that the first time we see the dagger, it is being weilded by another kind of "assassin". 

It's certainly a bit far fetchedI'd love to hear your thoughts!

Did you see that 

Did you see that @Seams  --we've found another jewel who appreciates symbolism.  Leo, did you have a chance to check out Lady Blizzardborn's reply about dragon bone possibly being a constituent of VS?  I had myself convinced Longclaw's pommel was made of dragon bone, and of course that's wrong, but you bring another important point up in the handle or pommel.  I have long wondered if the stones in or the material the pommels are made from or if even the shapes of the pommels matter in the overall scheme of things.  As you know, we do have that very curious moonstone and the other very curious heart shaped ruby in our known line up.   Little Finger's ownership of the dagger is suspicious all by itself.  There are only 227 blades in all of Westeros--how did this jerk get hold of 1 and what reason could he want one for?  He works very hard at maintaining a low key profile.   Ownership of VS is anything but low key.  I've honestly NEVER seen Frickin Little Finger suspected as a Faceless Man--that's great.   I realize you were implying perhaps Grand Pappy was the FM, but it's still great.   I will lose every argument I will have in defense of the Faceless Men from this point on. You really are a detective, Leo.   I enjoyed this as much as your history and information on RR & NF.   I do hope you'll bring that up as well.  For now you've certainly given us something to think about!