Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[Curled Finger]

45 minutes ago, Scorpion92 said:

I think the trope that sword Dawn must be wielded by only House Dayne members or if it is really original Ice then by Jon only is kind of ignoring one fact: whoever wields the sword must be a worthy knight so he can earn the title Sword of the Morning. If a person was not that honorable, then sometimes the wielder will be known as Sword of the Evening, ehich ties to dual symbolism of Venus and the switch between night/day like on house sigil of House Tarth.

I absolutely agree with those that say Jon will be the final wielder of Dawn, there are many textual foreshadowings for it. But there is one problem: Jon has Longclaw in the story, so the only way Jon can obtain Dawn as his sword is if he loses or breaks Longclaw (just like Last Hero broke his sword in the tale).

With that said, I see the person wielding dawn prior Jon as having several requirements, so to speak:

1) needs to be story connected to House Dayne and Dawn and some argue to Kingsguard due to Ser Arthur's own affiliation

2) needs to be a knight with dual symbolism of morning and evening - having both honorable as well as despicable traits, since there were several members bearing the title of Sword of the Morning and the Evening

Two known Daynes that we have in the story, Edric and Gerold "Darkstar" Dayne, do not fit the criteria I provided. Granted, I see a scenario where Darkstar will wield it temporarily and earn a spot on Aegon's Kingsguard since we already have Arianne soon to be deeply involved there.

But these two are not long for this story in my view.

So the only legitimate candidate to wield Dawn is Jaime Lannister. Here is why I think so:

1) Arthur Dayne, Sword of the Morning, was the one who knighted Jaime, and Dawn itself touched Kingslayer on his shoulders, in a way, symbolically, you could say Arthur Dayne and Dawn chose Jaime as wielder successor. And Jaime is a Kingsguard just like Arthur and soon to be Darkstar.

2) Jaime is a soiled knight who has dual morning/evening symbolism which makes his character that much interesting, we know of his great and dishonorable actions, so he fits this to a T.

3) his dream about Casterly Rock dungeons with Brienne fighting Rhaegar and Kingsguard. His sword lights up in blue flame, not red and orange, but blue. If I see any sword lighting up in such flame, it is a sword made of "pale milkglass", not "black dragonsteel".

4) I see him fighting Jon Snow in this story as inevitable. He has parallels to Aemon Dragonknight, who admitted that he never faced a better warrior than Lord Cregan Stark, and he also has parallels to Criston "Kingmaker" Cole. "Kingslayer" and "Kingmaker" are dual symbolisms as morning and evening are. Jaime can repair his name and honor forever once he becomes Kingmaker.

Besides, this story started from a conflict between a wolf and a lion, it is destined to end once these two beasts put aside the family dispute in order for the realm to recover post Long Night, a classic anti-war message from George.

And Jaime is a white cloak, while Jon is a black cloak, another dual symbolisms. If theories about Jon and Jaime/Cersei having Targaryen blood turn out to be true, then you have anotner buildup for Jaime/Jon conflict - one is a Targaryen bastard who was raised as Lannister trueborn, while another is a Targaryen trueborn raised as a Stark bastard.

All in all, I expect Jaime breaking Jon's Longclaw with Dawn in a battle, but once Jon proves his Targaryen heritage (skinchanging and mounting Drogon), Jaime will coronate Jon (Kingmaker action) with Robb's crown as King of Westeros and give him Dawn as the new ancestral sword of a new dynasty. House Dayne will be gone by that point by the events (Aegon and Darkstar losing against Dany; Edric establishing himself as new outlaw in Red Mountains as Vulture King and fighting for smallfolk nearby and eventually dying) so the sword can be passed to Jon without any other claimants to it.

 

Hiya Scorpion 92.  It was a Jamie thread that finally removed the cowl of disbelief from my eyes and made me see that Jamie has a lot of potential.  I only hope he gets to realize a portion of what we see he could do.  I don't know who will wield Dawn.  The World Book makes it pretty clear it's got to be a Dayne and it is the odds on favorite to become or be Lightbringer.  I don't think I've ever seen it suggested that the Daynes would become extinct in order for someone else to wield it.  But you've certainly given a plausible reason for a non-Dayne to take up the sword.  Maybe it is only a Dayne who may hold the title of SOM or SOE?  

Even if none of what you've shared here is realized I really enjoyed your parallels and reasons for it happening.   Nice research and reason.  Thanks for bringing your ideas here.   I hope folks take the time to read through what you've written and can put it together as nicely as you have.   

[Nezza86]

I read an article about Damascus steel and it said texts from the time when they were common referred to a "magical" quench in "dragons blood". The quench is when they rapidly cool the hot steel after it's been shaped. And some other texts mentioned that to make the strongest Damascus steel you had to use it to kill a strong slave with the blade after it was made. As I was reading it I could just imagine GRRM researching it and finding this part of the story had practically written itself. 

I have a theory that to make VS you have to heat the steel up with dragon fire and shape it, then use whatever spells are needed followed by a quench in dragons blood. Maybe the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" have some reference to the method of making VS.

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, Nezza86 said:

I read an article about Damascus steel and it said texts from the time when they were common referred to a "magical" quench in "dragons blood". The quench is when they rapidly cool the hot steel after it's been shaped. And some other texts mentioned that to make the strongest Damascus steel you had to use it to kill a strong slave with the blade after it was made. As I was reading it I could just imagine GRRM researching it and finding this part of the story had practically written itself. 

I have a theory that to make VS you have to heat the steel up with dragon fire and shape it, then use whatever spells are needed followed by a quench in dragons blood. Maybe the Targaryen words "Fire and Blood" have some reference to the method of making VS.

Egad that's great!  And really horrible.  But great! 

[Seams]

2 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

I've got a few points to make about The Valyrian Steel Dagger With The Dragonbone Hilt.

Of all the Valyrian weaponry we see, Littlefingers dagger is an island unto itself. To the best of my knowledge, no other VS sword we see has a Dragonbone Hilt, which is strange to me. ...

One element to consider is the blood of Petyr Baelish.

Petyrs great grandfather was a Bravosi sellsword who came to Westeros and served Lord Corbray. Could the dagger perhaps be a family heirloom? As Bravos was formed by escaped slaves from Valyria, one would imagine the people of Bravos have been privvy to the use of VS over the years. If the sellsword in question was skilled enough to gain employment with the presumeably VS weilding Lord Corbray, I imagine he would have been quite the warrior. One has to wonder why the Corbrays sent to Bravos for a sellsword, and what battles the man took part in.

If Littlefingers great grandsire was talented enough to gain employment with a foreign lord, I wonder where he got his training? Could he be connected to another element of warfare in Bravos, The House of Black and White?

 

1 hour ago, Curled Finger said:

Did you see that @Seams  --we've found another jewel who appreciates symbolism.  Leo, did you have a chance to check out Lady Blizzardborn's reply about dragon bone possibly being a constituent of VS?  I had myself convinced Longclaw's pommel was made of dragon bone, and of course that's wrong, but you bring another important point up in the handle or pommel.  I have long wondered if the stones in or the material the pommels are made from or if even the shapes of the pommels matter in the overall scheme of things.  As you know, we do have that very curious moonstone and the other very curious heart shaped ruby in our known line up.   Little Finger's ownership of the dagger is suspicious all by itself.  There are only 227 blades in all of Westeros--how did this jerk get hold of 1 and what reason could he want one for?  He works very hard at maintaining a low key profile.   Ownership of VS is anything but low key.  I've honestly NEVER seen Frickin Little Finger suspected as a Faceless Man--that's great.   I realize you were implying perhaps Grand Pappy was the FM, but it's still great.   ...

Oh this is so fun. So many of my favorite topics, all in one conversation.

This is a great point about the dragonbone hilt on the dagger - why isn't it more common as a weapon decoration. I just searched on the word dragonbone, and I find the word "plain" used over and over in connection with it. Even though it is valued as a great material for bows, maybe it is rejected for hilts because it doesn't look fancy enough for the wealthy weapon-buyers who can afford it? (The only pun I can think of that might explain "plain" might be "lapin," the French word for rabbit. Dany does talk about floppy ears - a metaphor initially suggested by Brown Ben Plumm - so there could be dragonbone / rabbit symbolism connected to the Targaryens. But I would have to put more thought into it to figure out any possible underlying meaning.)

Another recent thread raised the question of why Dorne remained peaceful after Robert's Rebellion, allowing Robert's envoy, Jon Arryn to establish diplomatic relations and to return to King's Landing with their (apparent) agreement to behave. A tangent in that discussion pointed out that Prince Doran's uncle, Prince Lewyn Martell, had been killed in a duel with Lyn Corbray - apparently the combat is specifically described as a duel.

That detail intrigued me, because I think Littlefinger and Brandon Stark are one of the very few (if not only) examples of a duel in ASOIAF. (Not to be confused with a trial by combat, even though both often involve one-to-one fights to the death.) We know that Littlefinger challenged Brandon over Catelyn's love or hand or something. We also know that Prince Lewyn had a secret paramour, in spite of his Kingsguard vow. So maybe the Corbray / Lewyn duel stems from some kind of love affair gone awry, and the rebellion / combat death was just an excuse or a cover-up for the dueling death of Prince Lewyn. If so, what can we learn about LIttlefinger from examining the parallel "duel arc" involving House Corbray, to which House Baelish is connected? Do their Valyrian weapons carry any meaning in the duel context?

I mentioned in yet another recent thread that I suspect that daggers represent tongues. So a Valyrian steel dagger should logically belong to a guy like Petyr, who is a smooth talker. But the dragonbone aspect really is intriguing. I have also posted a theory that Littlefinger obtained dragon's eggs from Groat and Penny. And separately speculated that he is a Velaryon descendant - I find the whole Braavosi sellsword pedigree to be somewhat suspicious. So maybe the dragonbone handle is foreshadowing for a past or future dragon connection for House Baelish.

CF, you raise a really important point, I think, with your contemplation of pommel and handles and hilts. I think we better also start looking at scabbards and sheaths. Jon Snow's sword and dagger are wrapped in moleskin when he rides from Castle Black with the intent of joining Robb's army. I thought that might be a "sword in the darkness" allusion, but it might also have a Mole's Town meaning tied in. Tywin makes a point of requesting a really fancy scabbard with rubies for the sword he will give to Joffrey. Very few scabbards are described, so those that are mentioned are probably important.

By the way, what are all the dragon products or compound words we have seen in the books now? Dragonstone (a location), dragonglass (a name for obsidian), dragonbone, dragon peppers. Anything else?

[Yaya]

not to slow down any thought processes going on ... and apoligies if i missed this being covered somewhere else:

could there be VS swords "melted" in the iron throne?
why would aegon the first not take them had there been some for the taking?

also, why aren't there more VS weapons in the world - why would Westeros be special?

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Euron doesn't have VS. He has.... Something else.

Jon will return Longclaw to Jorah. Who will end up giving it back to John

Jon will get Dark Sister though until he gets Longclaw back

Then arya gets Dark sister

Sam will bring Heartsbsne into the fold (for tormund)

Blackfyre and the conquerers crown will go to faegon then dany. Dany might give Blackfyre to Jon

Catelyn ends up with widow's wail. Until Arya kills her. After Catelyn gives it to Edmure

Darrio gets VS Arakh 

Greatjon gets Heartsbane or VS axe

Tyrion gets VS dagger.

Truth is with the tattered prince 

Brienne has hers word who Sansa bestows on her permanently 

Lady forlorn will be Sansa's (from Lother Brune killing Corbray but both dies from wounds) and she gives to the hound

Nightfall goes to Stannis and then Davos

Vigilance is up in the hightower

Orphan-Maker is with Marwyn this will be Dany's or gendrys (Gendry might get widow's wail) after all a wailing widow started house Baratheon in a way

Bright roar is with 2nd sons

 

 

 

 

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

Darkstar has Dawn will kill  Hotah or Obara escape and give Doran a middle finger by taking black.

Jon kills him and eventually starts using it (not a Dayne I know) and Longclaw goes to Greatjon 

Strongboar might get VS Axe

Loras might have widows wail or truth.

[The Fresh PtwP]

9 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Euron doesn't have VS. He has.... Something else.

Jon will return Longclaw to Jorah. Who will end up giving it back to John

Jon will get Dark Sister though until he gets Longclaw back

Then arya gets Dark sister

Sam will bring Heartsbsne into the fold (for tormund)

Blackfyre and the conquerers crown will go to faegon then dany. Dany might give Blackfyre to Jon

Catelyn ends up with widow's wail. Until Arya kills her. After Catelyn gives it to Edmure

Darrio gets VS Arakh 

Greatjon gets Heartsbane or VS axe

Tyrion gets VS dagger.

Truth is with the tattered prince 

Brienne has hers word who Sansa bestows on her permanently 

Lady forlorn will be Sansa's (from Lother Brune but he dies from wounds) and she gives to the hound

Nightfall goes to Stannis and then Davos

Vigilance is up in the tower

Orphan-Maker is with Marwyn this will be Dany's

 

 

 

 

 

Alright, looks like we're done here...........

[Nezza86]

That's a vast amount of story to fit into the last two books. I know they'll be huge but surely not that huge. I know a lot of people love the idea of there being 12 VS swords plus one to match the last hero. But the last hero set off to find the COTF so I thought that matched with Brans story already. And I couldn't name 12 characters that I think will be involved in the final fight with the white walkers.

I think there'll be 7 swords that come into effect. Long claw, heartsbane, blackfyre, dark sister, bright roar, a reforged ice which becomes lightbringer and lady forlorn.

dark sister is in Lyannas crypt to mark Jon as the targ heir, blackfyre with Aegon to show he's not a real dragon. Euron has bright roar, long claw will go back to jorah, Sam will end up bringing heartsbane north to give to someone else tormund is a good shout, and Sansa will end up with lady forlorn which she'll give to Brienne after gendry reforges ice out of OK and WW which will later become lightbringer. Who ends up with each sword I don't know. And how dawn plays into it too I don't know. But twelve swords is a lot and would need a lot of new story to be written to bring them into the fold.

the only one that seems weak to me is lady forlorn via Sansa, but then what the hell else is Sansa doing in the eyrie for so long if not to end up with an army and a VS sword.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Yaya said:

not to slow down any thought processes going on ... and apoligies if i missed this being covered somewhere else:

could there be VS swords "melted" in the iron throne?
why would aegon the first not take them had there been some for the taking?

also, why aren't there more VS weapons in the world - why would Westeros be special?

I don't think so, Yaya.   The 15 swords we have and their appearances are all accounted for in some way shape or form well after Aegon conquered.  Hang on a second, I have to adjust my tin foil here...it's a past time of mine to try to understand why there are any VS swords at all.   I have decided forces have been gathering for some time in preparation for the coming battle for Dawn.  There are only the 15 swords in Westeros among a decisive 227 VS blades.   We don't know how many there are in Essos or anywhere else in the world.  As you know, I believe only 12 swords are required and I see the swords in Westeros manage to continue to add up to 12.  Lamentation was lost in the dragon pits and Truth shows up shortly thereafter.   Brightroar goes and 2 new Targ swords are added.   That's a curious thing, too, why didn't Rhaenys have a sword?   It would have been an assault against the forces of fire magic, maybe even Valyrians as a whole, to retire any of these precious swords to an ugly chair.    I take that as proof that there are "forces of fire" lining up in Westeros.   It's possible Westeros is the place where everything comes down making it the place where magic swords are needed.   That's my take on it anyway.   

[BRANDON GREYSTARK]

11 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

Can Jon be the new SotM when he's not a member of House Dayne?  I may actually be able to answer that with one my theories. Dawn is not Dawn. Dawn is the original Ice that House Stark "lost."  Cause really, how do you lose your ancestral sword? If somebody beat you and took it, they'd be bragging. If it was dropped overboard, there'd be a story about how the idiot who lost it was punished or otherwise mocked as say The King who Dropped. And nobody misplaces an ancestral sword either.

OR it was the sword of The Great Other and he was required to give it up to men when his side lost the war, or reached a peace treaty. In either case, at some point the sword was given to House Dayne for safekeeping because they had the southernmost keep (at the time) in Westeros, and if the Others ever get that far south, they're all done for anyway.  

If Dawn is actually Ice, then Jon being half-Stark could conceivably wield the sword. It's not like Bran or Rickon can do so, and Jon is the only other Stark of any sort left who could wield a sword of that size. Please understand I'm not talking about weight but length. Different length swords require different skills.

 

On to more fun...

I submit the possibility that Dragonsteel is NOT the same as VS. I suggest instead that dragonsteel is weapons made out of dragonbone, which is described in book or scroll Tyrion reads at Winterfell as lighter than steel, more flexible than steel, black due to high iron content, and perhaps most importantly, impervious to flame. Imagine a weapon that is light and flexible, magical in origin, and can be set on fire without burning. That's one that could potentially kill both Others and wights. There's really no point to including this information in the series unless it's going to be important, and Tyrion of all characters is the one who knows it. Whatever book he was reading when he found that information is probably gone, burned in Ramsay's Winterfell bonfire. We know from GRRM that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel, so why put that in there? The one dragonbone bow in the series could be important, but more so than magic swords? 

Oh, and guess who among the merchants of Planetos deals in dragonbone? Illyrio Mopatis.

We haven't yet seen how VS takes to being set on fire, but it of course could also be extremely effective against both Others and wights. I just don't think there's enough VS in the world to equip enough people to stop the Others unless it's a situation where you kill the top dog and the rest of them surrender, even then if we've got 13 people setting out to take out the head honcho, the rest of the people still need to be armed to keep the Others from overrunning the world while our brave 13 Last Last Heroes go about their mission.

 

What will Dany find in Asshai that she won't find in Qarth? Truth. Not just true information, but the sword of House Rogare. And as House Rogare no longer seems to exist, any living Targaryen or Blackfyre at this point has a decent claim to that sword. Larra Rogare was mother to Aegon IV, Naerys, and Aemon the Dragonknight. So Dany, Jon, Aegon, missing random theorized twins, and other possible Blackfyre claimants, could all use that particular VS weapon. Nobody has the best claim, so any of them could have it.

 

If it turns out Euron has been to Valyria, he may have found Brightroar.

 

ETA: I wouldn't count Corbray and Lady Forlorn out. Ser Lyn might not last the series, and if he does well The George likes using unlikely heroes. Look at how Jaime turned around.

Jon may claim Dawn either through blood AD +LS=JS or through Milk Kinship.

[Curled Finger]

Yes!   Face off duel with @One-eyed Misbehavin!  Let's do this, Brother...

1. I like Heartsbane for Jorah The Lovesick.   No reason other than the name and he is one of the few I think could handle the big sword. 

2. I'm good with Arya with DS.   But I do think all these people with the swords are gonna die.   Except the one with Lightbringer.  Make your peace with it.  

3.  I've got Tormund earmarked for Longclaw due to his immediate proximity in Jon's absence. 

4.  I'm good with Dany with Blackfyre, but I think the crown is in the crypts, but you give them both to Jon so we appear to agree.

5.  I love this.   Oh LSH will get Widow's Wail, but I think she may already have OK.  1st choice was Arya with WW to give LSH the gift of mercy.  We have the same conclusion by different roads. 

6.   Oh hell yes on Greatjon with a big sword. 

7.  Gads.   The tattered prince?  Really?  I'm close to convinced it's in Dorne so I will take Gerold Dayne.

8.  Right on.   Brienne deserves OK, even if I have a feeling she won't be getting it back.   

9.  I had Lothor Brune earmarked for Lady Forlorn.   I really want him to be a good guy.   Maybe whack Frickin Little Finger with it.

10.  Oooh, nice one.  I hadn't considered Stannis would get a sword but that's not bad.  I've got Garlan Tyrell due to proximity.  We've got 3, maybe 4 swords in this little hotspot.  I'm still trying to place worthy wielders in the area but I like Theon for Red Rain somewhere down the road.  I'm not sure I'm ready to consign Davos to death yet.   Let me ponder this for a while.  

11. You got me again.   I didn't see that coming.   Marwyn has Orphan-Maker the only sword that happens to match his cool black candle.  Nice one.   Now Gendry with WW is nice too, as I see it as a Baratheon sword.  

12.  Don't kill Areo Hotah.   I love that guy.  

Your miscellaneous VS items:hero line up is fine and dandy.   That was so much fun--Thank you!   

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, The Fresh PtwP said:

Alright, looks like we're done here...........

Yep.  @One-eyed Misbehavin isn't famous for his long posts.   That was a rare and wonderful thing to behold.  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Nezza86 said:

That's a vast amount of story to fit into the last two books. I know they'll be huge but surely not that huge. I know a lot of people love the idea of there being 12 VS swords plus one to match the last hero. But the last hero set off to find the COTF so I thought that matched with Brans story already. And I couldn't name 12 characters that I think will be involved in the final fight with the white walkers.

I think there'll be 7 swords that come into effect. Long claw, heartsbane, blackfyre, dark sister, bright roar, a reforged ice which becomes lightbringer and lady forlorn.

dark sister is in Lyannas crypt to mark Jon as the targ heir, blackfyre with Aegon to show he's not a real dragon. Euron has bright roar, long claw will go back to jorah, Sam will end up bringing heartsbane north to give to someone else tormund is a good shout, and Sansa will end up with lady forlorn which she'll give to Brienne after gendry reforges ice out of OK and WW which will later become lightbringer. Who ends up with each sword I don't know. And how dawn plays into it too I don't know. But twelve swords is a lot and would need a lot of new story to be written to bring them into the fold.

the only one that seems weak to me is lady forlorn via Sansa, but then what the hell else is Sansa doing in the eyrie for so long if not to end up with an army and a VS sword.

Now that's interesting, Nezza86.  You didn't list Dawn and moreover you didn't list Dawn as Lightbringer.   That never happens.   Right on.   How come you bring Brightroar back, but not Lamentation?  Just for fun I have a list of 28 potential heroes.  I think this is the 1st time I've admitted to anyone other than Brienne in the match up.  I have settled on 4 heroes for 12 swords, but that's just how I see it. Thanks for bringing up Bran already potentially fulfilling part of The Last Hero's quest.   That doesn't come up often.  You made some good choices.  Thanks for offering your thoughts.   

[Curled Finger]

20 minutes ago, BRANDON GREYSTARK said:

Jon may claim Dawn either through blood AD +LS=JS or through Milk Kinship.

Oh man, that's great.   I have never seen the milk connection before.  

[The Hammer of Justice]

For the missing VS swords I think is almost pretty obvious that Blackfyre is with Illyrio or the Golden Company and it will be given to Aegon.

Dark Sister - I said in the other topic that I think it could be with Howland Reed or in Lyanna's crypt. The problem with this theory is that how could Ned/Howland have acquired it?? If it was with Rhaegar, someone would have noticed before that the prince of Dragonstone had a VS sword. It is just a random theory

And I think Brightroar will make an appearence, it could be with Euron, he claimed he has traveled to Valyria.

I don't particularly think all of the VS swords will be important to the story, and I also don't understand why so many people think Ice will be reforged (maybe that's just wishful thinking)

[Nezza86]

Thanks Curled Finger I like to go against the grain sometimes. 

I could see lamentation making an appearance, but Ive never remembered it from a read through of the books. I had to google it just there haha. So it's house Royces sword that was lost in the dragon pit during the dance of dragons. I guess since it's been locked since then it could just be still lying there. It's a bit easy though isn't it? The only reason I say lady forlorn will come into play is because Sansa has been hanging out in the eyrie for ages and it would feel natural if LFs manipulations end up in such a way that Sansa gets her hand on the sword.

i just can't see dawn as LB. the plot around Dawn is that it has to be a Dayne that wields it but it's not handed down to the eldest son. So I think an unknown Dayne will claim it i.e. Dayne-areys in the event that she is only half targaryen. 

Didnt the last heroes sword eventually freeze and shatter when he travelled north. Until he reached the children of the forest then they showed him how to fight the white walkers. Surely a VS sword couldn't freeze. The 12 companions thing just didn't fit well for me. But hey I'm really stubborn anyway haha. 

Hammer of justice I totally agree with your post, I think bloodraven who could see the future did everything he did to make sure dark sister ends up with Jon and blackfyre with aegon. Dunk went as an escort to the wall with bloodraven, maybe he hid dark sister at summer hall before he invited the blackfyre dude to parley, then confessed it to dunk at the wall. Then when egg tried to hatch the dragons eggs dunk was off trying to find the sword which stopped him saving him. Maybe rhaegar found it at summer hall and kept it at the tower of joy with Lyanna, Jon and Wylla. Then ned took Lyannas body and DS to winter fell. And he buried them together. 

Sorry totally rambling.

[Seams]

10 hours ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

Bright roar is with 2nd sons

 

 

 

 

If we're really free to toss off any and all theories, I'll bet $5 that Brightroar is Lightbringer.

I have this sense that uncle / nephew or uncle / niece relationships are central to the resolution. So Gerion / Tyrion is important and Tyrion / Joffrey was important. (Also Aeron / Theon and Euron / Asha; Benjen / Jon, etc.) Part of this uncle / nephew sense comes from the little novel called The Ice Dragon that GRRM published in 1980 in which an uncle is a dragonrider and his niece, who already has special personal qualities that set her apart from her family, ends up riding a more powerful dragon.

I have seen the theories that Gerion has a secret identity and is hiding out with a sellsword company. That might be the way that the sword gets to Tyrion. It might not be that dramatic - it might be that Tryion finds it in a pile of the rusty armor he and Penny have been digging through - sort of a King Arthur / sword-in-the-stone situation. Or maybe Penny finds it and gives it to Tyrion.

But the sword might not go to Tyrion, who has limited ability to make use of a full-sized sword. (If that's what Brightroar is.)

Because the worldwide discussion of the comet said that it represented dragons in the minds of some people, and a sword in the beliefs of others, it could be that Tyrion gets a dragon and that the sword will get to Jaime. At one point, someone says that lions are extinct in Westeros. I think the return of Brightroar as Lightbringer will mark a restoration of lions and the redemption of Jaime.

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I don't think so, Yaya.   The 15 swords we have and their appearances are all accounted for in some way shape or form well after Aegon conquered.  Hang on a second, I have to adjust my tin foil here...it's a past time of mine to try to understand why there are any VS swords at all.   I have decided forces have been gathering for some time in preparation for the coming battle for Dawn.  There are only the 15 swords in Westeros among a decisive 227 VS blades.   We don't know how many there are in Essos or anywhere else in the world.  As you know, I believe only 12 swords are required and I see the swords in Westeros manage to continue to add up to 12.  Lamentation was lost in the dragon pits and Truth shows up shortly thereafter.   Brightroar goes and 2 new Targ swords are added.   That's a curious thing, too, why didn't Rhaenys have a sword?   It would have been an assault against the forces of fire magic, maybe even Valyrians as a whole, to retire any of these precious swords to an ugly chair.    I take that as proof that there are "forces of fire" lining up in Westeros.   It's possible Westeros is the place where everything comes down making it the place where magic swords are needed.   That's my take on it anyway.   

Ive always been bothered by this a 3rd Targ sword seems like a necessity. Only thing o could think is maybe she didn't carry one at all. She doesn't seem like the type to want to stab anyone. But idk just a thought 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I have a few thoughts on some swords, Mostly Nightfall and Dawn.  

 

I think nightfall is Brienne's family sword. And that the Corsair which dalton Greyjoy took it from got it by stealing it from a previous Evenstar of Tarth. Tarth is an island in the narrow sea an area beset through history by corsairs. So the idea that a corsair could take the Evenstars sword is not so far fetched.  Asha describes the sword as as storied as Red Rain.  So perhaps the sword had a history prior to falling into Greyjoys hands?  I think as well we can answer the question of how Harras Harlaw ended up with the sword. Victarion tells us that Harras was firm friends with Roderik Greyjoy Ashas brother who died so perhaps Harras simply took up his friends sword after he fell and Balon allowed him to keep it. Maybe as a mark of honour for how Harras had fought?  

I'll admit it's a loose theory, and one which can be picked apart by the wording in the world book that Dalton named the sword Nightfall himself. But we can equally say that the words of the Maester are to be taken with a pinch of salt. As he can only write what he himself personally knows about. 

But when I came up with this idea it set about a great deal of thinking about Tarth and I came up with another idea, one about Dawn. You see the reason for my Nightfall belonged historically to the Evenstar theory was because of the language surrounding Tarth, Evenfall Hall,The Evenstar, Morne, being on the east side, Evenfall hall being on the west side. You can see why Nightfall falls into this quite well.  But along the way I thought about the duality there, with Morne and the idea that each castle might hold an office, so just as The Evenstar is a title and I theorised held a famous sword, Morne might have held a title and a sword.  We have the story of Galladon of Morne and Just Maid. And if the stories are correct then the name is off, because a sword can't be gifted by the Maid and named for her prior to the Andal conversion to the seven, yet the story is of a pre Knighthood Knight? this stinks of bastardisation. And many stories from the age of heroes do.  The remains of the castle are described in the world book as of Andal origin too, but we all know that castles undergo many stages of building and restructuring, meaning that some bits of any truly ancient castle will be First men and some Andal.  I decided that Morne must have had a VS sword and I pondered what it may have been called, and you know what I came up with? erm, Dawn. 

I tried really hard not to say I think Dawn in Just Maid, or rather that I think Just Maid is a fallacy and an andal appropriation of Dawn. But I'm afraid it just wouldn't go away once I had thought it, and though I fought it; the idea just kept on knawing away. I thought about it some more and decided that perhaps Nightfall is telling us a little bit of information about Dawn perhaps it's a clue a tool used to trigger the idea that the opposite sword to Nightfall is naturally Dawn and that where Nightfall has a Moonstone in its hilt Dawn has a Sunstone.  

I did a bit more digging and came across the description of the constellation of The Sword of the Morning, and it is a sword-shaped constellation and a star shines like a diamond in its hilt.  

 

 

I did some thinking about Diamonds and Sunstones and the fabled Sunstones used as a navigation tool by Vikings, the stone comes in red and in a clear form, this clear form being what is believed to have been used by the Vikings when they managed to sail to North America.