Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[Leo of House Cartel]

19 hours ago, Lady Blizzardborn said:

 

I submit the possibility that Dragonsteel is NOT the same as VS. I suggest instead that dragonsteel is weapons made out of dragonbone, which is described in book or scroll Tyrion reads at Winterfell as lighter than steel, more flexible than steel, black due to high iron content, and perhaps most importantly, impervious to flame. Imagine a weapon that is light and flexible, magical in origin, and can be set on fire without burning. That's one that could potentially kill both Others and wights. There's really no point to including this information in the series unless it's going to be important, and Tyrion of all characters is the one who knows it. Whatever book he was reading when he found that information is probably gone, burned in Ramsay's Winterfell bonfire. We know from GRRM that dragonbone is not used in Valyrian Steel, so why put that in there? The one dragonbone bow in the series could be important, but more so than magic swords? 

Oh, and guess who among the merchants of Planetos deals in dragonbone? Illyrio Mopatis.

 

You raise many interesting points m'lady, you're points on Dragonsteel really set my thoughts to racing.

Im fully behind the possibility of VS and Dragonsteel being different. I wonder, could Dragonsteel perhaps be the precursor to the Freeholds blades?

If we go by certain theories regarding the GEOTD, then the people of the ancient east may have invented several techniques associated with Valyria. While there are many parrallels between the two great empires, the one that strikes me as most intriguing is the speculated difference between the various black stones used to build historical stuctures. More ancient builds such as the foundation of the Hightower use a plain, unadorned fused stone to build, while newer Valyrian structures have a more artistic, dramatic style. 

Could this be a hint at relations between Dragonsteel and VS? In TWOIAF many links are drawn between the Bloodstone Emperor and the Long Night, while in ASOS, Sam reads intell regarding Dragonsteel being used against the Others. Now we know obsidian is effective against the White Walkers, and as dragonglass comes from volcanoes, so perhaps it's got alot in common with Dragonbone. Don't get me wrong, there are obvious structural differences, but from a magical/elemental standpoint, could one not see a sword made of Dragonbone having a similiar effect on an Other as a blade of Dragonglass would?  

I'm imagining then that swords crafted from actual Dragonbone may have been the weapon of choice for the GEOTD. The description from Tyrion you provided certainly seems to hint at DB as being a good choice to make a sword from. I imagine the sorcerors of the Freehold could have had access to ample literature regarding the Long Night, so perhaps eventually they sought to improve upon the legendary Dragonsteel Swords by using the iron working techniques learned from the Rhoynar and making a newer folded steel variation.

In regards to Illyrio, that Dragonbone dealer note is captivating as hell. I'm sure he and Varys have ammassed quite the menagerie of Dragon related prizes.

 

12 hours ago, Seams said:

 

Oh this is so fun. So many of my favorite topics, all in one conversation.

This is a great point about the dragonbone hilt on the dagger - why isn't it more common as a weapon decoration. I just searched on the word dragonbone, and I find the word "plain" used over and over in connection with it. Even though it is valued as a great material for bows, maybe it is rejected for hilts because it doesn't look fancy enough for the wealthy weapon-buyers who can afford it? (The only pun I can think of that might explain "plain" might be "lapin," the French word for rabbit. Dany does talk about floppy ears - a metaphor initially suggested by Brown Ben Plumm - so there could be dragonbone / rabbit symbolism connected to the Targaryens. But I would have to put more thought into it to figure out any possible underlying meaning.)

Another recent thread raised the question of why Dorne remained peaceful after Robert's Rebellion, allowing Robert's envoy, Jon Arryn to establish diplomatic relations and to return to King's Landing with their (apparent) agreement to behave. A tangent in that discussion pointed out that Prince Doran's uncle, Prince Lewyn Martell, had been killed in a duel with Lyn Corbray - apparently the combat is specifically described as a duel.

That detail intrigued me, because I think Littlefinger and Brandon Stark are one of the very few (if not only) examples of a duel in ASOIAF. (Not to be confused with a trial by combat, even though both often involve one-to-one fights to the death.) We know that Littlefinger challenged Brandon over Catelyn's love or hand or something. We also know that Prince Lewyn had a secret paramour, in spite of his Kingsguard vow. So maybe the Corbray / Lewyn duel stems from some kind of love affair gone awry, and the rebellion / combat death was just an excuse or a cover-up for the dueling death of Prince Lewyn. If so, what can we learn about LIttlefinger from examining the parallel "duel arc" involving House Corbray, to which House Baelish is connected? Do their Valyrian weapons carry any meaning in the duel context?

I mentioned in yet another recent thread that I suspect that daggers represent tongues. So a Valyrian steel dagger should logically belong to a guy like Petyr, who is a smooth talker. But the dragonbone aspect really is intriguing. I have also posted a theory that Littlefinger obtained dragon's eggs from Groat and Penny. And separately speculated that he is a Velaryon descendant - I find the whole Braavosi sellsword pedigree to be somewhat suspicious. So maybe the dragonbone handle is foreshadowing for a past or future dragon connection for House Baelish.

CF, you raise a really important point, I think, with your contemplation of pommel and handles and hilts. I think we better also start looking at scabbards and sheaths. Jon Snow's sword and dagger are wrapped in moleskin when he rides from Castle Black with the intent of joining Robb's army. I thought that might be a "sword in the darkness" allusion, but it might also have a Mole's Town meaning tied in. Tywin makes a point of requesting a really fancy scabbard with rubies for the sword he will give to Joffrey. Very few scabbards are described, so those that are mentioned are probably important.

By the way, what are all the dragon products or compound words we have seen in the books now? Dragonstone (a location), dragonglass (a name for obsidian), dragonbone, dragon peppers. Anything else?

You mind works in wonderful ways my friend, the parallel between the Corbray-Martell and LF-Stark duels is an interesting one. I shall try cultivate as much intell as I can regarding potential paramours connected with the two. Baelish possibly being connected to the Velaryons is another good one. I imagine Lord Oakenfist may have been a regular at the Ragmans Harbour of Braavos.

You and CF raise good points about the scabbards and pommells.Would a Valyrian scabbard perhaps be made from Dragonhide?

[Curled Finger]

4 hours ago, Seams said:

Oh this is so fun. So many of my favorite topics, all in one conversation.

This is a great point about the dragonbone hilt on the dagger - why isn't it more common as a weapon decoration. I just searched on the word dragonbone, and I find the word "plain" used over and over in connection with it. Even though it is valued as a great material for bows, maybe it is rejected for hilts because it doesn't look fancy enough for the wealthy weapon-buyers who can afford it? (The only pun I can think of that might explain "plain" might be "lapin," the French word for rabbit. Dany does talk about floppy ears - a metaphor initially suggested by Brown Ben Plumm - so there could be dragonbone / rabbit symbolism connected to the Targaryens. But I would have to put more thought into it to figure out any possible underlying meaning.)

Another recent thread raised the question of why Dorne remained peaceful after Robert's Rebellion, allowing Robert's envoy, Jon Arryn to establish diplomatic relations and to return to King's Landing with their (apparent) agreement to behave. A tangent in that discussion pointed out that Prince Doran's uncle, Prince Lewyn Martell, had been killed in a duel with Lyn Corbray - apparently the combat is specifically described as a duel.

That detail intrigued me, because I think Littlefinger and Brandon Stark are one of the very few (if not only) examples of a duel in ASOIAF. (Not to be confused with a trial by combat, even though both often involve one-to-one fights to the death.) We know that Littlefinger challenged Brandon over Catelyn's love or hand or something. We also know that Prince Lewyn had a secret paramour, in spite of his Kingsguard vow. So maybe the Corbray / Lewyn duel stems from some kind of love affair gone awry, and the rebellion / combat death was just an excuse or a cover-up for the dueling death of Prince Lewyn. If so, what can we learn about LIttlefinger from examining the parallel "duel arc" involving House Corbray, to which House Baelish is connected? Do their Valyrian weapons carry any meaning in the duel context?

I mentioned in yet another recent thread that I suspect that daggers represent tongues. So a Valyrian steel dagger should logically belong to a guy like Petyr, who is a smooth talker. But the dragonbone aspect really is intriguing. I have also posted a theory that Littlefinger obtained dragon's eggs from Groat and Penny. And separately speculated that he is a Velaryon descendant - I find the whole Braavosi sellsword pedigree to be somewhat suspicious. So maybe the dragonbone handle is foreshadowing for a past or future dragon connection for House Baelish.

CF, you raise a really important point, I think, with your contemplation of pommel and handles and hilts. I think we better also start looking at scabbards and sheaths. Jon Snow's sword and dagger are wrapped in moleskin when he rides from Castle Black with the intent of joining Robb's army. I thought that might be a "sword in the darkness" allusion, but it might also have a Mole's Town meaning tied in. Tywin makes a point of requesting a really fancy scabbard with rubies for the sword he will give to Joffrey. Very few scabbards are described, so those that are mentioned are probably important.

By the way, what are all the dragon products or compound words we have seen in the books now? Dragonstone (a location), dragonglass (a name for obsidian), dragonbone, dragon peppers. Anything else?

Welcome Seams!  I'm thinking there are no dragonbone hilts because they had none left after throwing them all in the VS mixture. Only half joking, sorry.  If I understand the properties correctly dragonbone wouldn't break and would almost become as hard as the steel itself.  As you say, it may just have been to hard to carve or decorate.  

A Duel?  I see these performed with fencing swords!  Ah I have such tunnel vision sometimes.   I'm not coming up with anything for connections between our 2 duels.  Other than loyalty, what could Martell and Corbray have fought over?

There is so much to these swords Seams.  I'm not really sure what matters.  However, scabbards are certainly worth a look.   I figure it is either indicative of as you say the sword in the darkness or Walder Frey's allusion.  It is certainly worth a look.

Dragon dreams is all I can add right now.   Will let you know if I come up with anything else.    

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Posted in two parts as my keyboard keeps fucking up and I didn't want to loose all that I had written. 

So this weirdly tied in with something else which I had been thinking about, which was how did it end up in Dorne then? 

I surmised that house Dayne might be house Morne. Morne(ing) Day(ne) you see. And that a translational error occurred somewhere in the past. When the Old Tongue was lost. I looked at the story of the Dayne's following a fallen star and then thought what if rather than literal it is symbolic, and that House Morne followed a fallen Evenstar when the Storm King defeated the Tarths and took the island into the fold of the Stormlands.  It is said in the world book that Durran took the daughter of The Evenstar to wife and that the Mornes were defeated by the Stormlanders. And I wondered if they are the same family at root? Looking at Tarths arms suns and moon quartered it seems possible, and Brienne's family do claim the blood of Galladon of Morne. Along with half of Tarth but if anyone has the likelihood of having his blood it would be the Tarths, The title of Evenstar is said to go back to the dawn of days in the world book and the Evenstar is a name for Venus which is also known as the Morning star. 

So if Morne took their sword of the Morning and followed a defeated Evenstar to find a new home they could have settled on a different Island in Dorne and there established Starfall. With the story being bastardised later as them following a literal star. And the story of the making of their sword getting twisted up in it.  The sword of the Morning as a title and The Evenstar are very similar and the only two enduring titular offices we have in the books, which are held by a specific family member of any house.  And when we investigate further there is the island connection too. I began to wonder if the Daynes/Mornes/Tarths are proto valyrians with the interesting connection of Dragonstone having Valyrians,  Driftmark having Valyrians, Claw Isle having Valyrians, and the next Island in that cluster is Tarth. I began wondering about that Sunstone and navigation and wondered if a group of Proto Valyrians might have used one to cross the narrow sea, and then set it in the hilt of a sword which was created from the remains of the meteor which drew them to set sail in the first place.  

So I guess what I am trying to say is I think Brienne might become the Sword of the Morning. And The Evenstar and wield Dawn.  She represents the Perfect Knight in the story as do Ser Arthur Dayne, & Galladon of Morne. She is a Galahad figure. 

[Curled Finger]

@The Weirwoods Eyes,  this history you've come up with has bugged me since I first read it last year.   You are able to draw these conclusions about Nightfall in relation to Tarth that quite frankly fit pretty well.  It's a really nice backstory and history and not a lot of people have made the connection.  Trust me on this I don't think there is a sword topic I haven't haunted!   Brienne and Tarth are both pretty special.   Your ideas last year really made me take a look at both with an eye to historical importance.  I scoured every mention of Nightfall and its appearance for a connection.  You've ruined me with this as I do think there may be something to it.  I hope our friend @Leo of House Cartel has a moment to go over your theory.   You and he are the rare few I've had the pleasure of discussing the Iron Born swords with.   I meant to recommend you to him in our old "Let's Find The Swords" topic, but got distracted with all the shiny new posters.   Nightfall as a sword of Tarth is among my very favorite ideas.   Thank you a million times for sharing this in our updated conversation!   

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

Thank you @Curled Finger

It really has been a pleasure weaving this theory and I found so much in the process which I had utterly missed on all my read-throughs.  I think there is much to be learnt from searching specific words and phrases. 

I'm working on where Edric & Gerold Dayne fall into this. And wonder just now if Darkstar might get Nightfall? Seems fitting. 

[Curled Finger]

3 hours ago, The Hammer of Justice said:

For the missing VS swords I think is almost pretty obvious that Blackfyre is with Illyrio or the Golden Company and it will be given to Aegon.

Dark Sister - I said in the other topic that I think it could be with Howland Reed or in Lyanna's crypt. The problem with this theory is that how could Ned/Howland have acquired it?? If it was with Rhaegar, someone would have noticed before that the prince of Dragonstone had a VS sword. It is just a random theory

And I think Brightroar will make an appearence, it could be with Euron, he claimed he has traveled to Valyria.

I don't particularly think all of the VS swords will be important to the story, and I also don't understand why so many people think Ice will be reforged (maybe that's just wishful thinking)

I hope one of our fabulous list makers is watching this.   I was struck by your comment in the old topic and thank you for joining in again here.   I appreciate your 1) interesting if random pairing of DS with Ned or HR and 2) your openness to so many different ideas about the swords including but not limited to their importance.   A lot goes in in your few sentences.  And you are the one who inspired this discussion right here.  Hammer tell me, have you read all these wild ideas and discussions?   I don't see a change from your original positions and understand that the swords are not particularly important in your estimation.  I'm personally blown away (mostly with gratitude 1st and awe 2nd) by so many ideas about these things.  

I think I allied myself with your statement about Ice.   If the list makers are watching I would love to know where this reforging of Ice idea actually falls in the popularity poll.  Thank you very much for joining us here. I know having to make your statements twice is such a pain so I really appreciate the effort and response.     

[Curled Finger]

36 minutes ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

 

You raise many interesting points m'lady, you're points on Dragonsteel really set my thoughts to racing.

Im fully behind the possibility of VS and Dragonsteel being different. I wonder, could Dragonsteel perhaps be the precursor to the Freeholds blades?

If we go by certain theories regarding the GEOTD, then the people of the ancient east may have invented several techniques associated with Valyria. While there are many parrallels between the two great empires, the one that strikes me as most intriguing is the speculated difference between the various black stones used to build historical stuctures. More ancient builds such as the foundation of the Hightower use a plain, unadorned fused stone to build, while newer Valyrian structures have a more artistic, dramatic style. 

Could this be a hint at relations between Dragonsteel and VS? In TWOIAF many links are drawn between the Bloodstone Emperor and the Long Night, while in ASOS, Sam reads intell regarding Dragonsteel being used against the Others. Now we know obsidian is effective against the White Walkers, and as dragonglass comes from volcanoes, so perhaps it's got alot in common with Dragonbone. Don't get me wrong, there are obvious structural differences, but from a magical/elemental standpoint, could one not see a sword made of Dragonbone having a similiar effect on an Other as a blade of Dragonglass would?  

I'm imagining then that swords crafted from actual Dragonbone may have been the weapon of choice for the GEOTD. The description from Tyrion you provided certainly seems to hint at DB as being a good choice to make a sword from. I imagine the sorcerors of the Freehold could have had access to ample literature regarding the Long Night, so perhaps eventually they sought to improve upon the legendary Dragonsteel Swords by using the iron working techniques learned from the Rhoynar and making a newer folded steel variation.

In regards to Illyrio, that Dragonbone dealer note is captivating as hell. I'm sure he and Varys have ammassed quite the menagerie of Dragon related prizes.

 

You mind works in wonderful ways my friend, the parallel between the Corbray-Martell and LF-Stark duels is an interesting one. I shall try cultivate as much intell as I can regarding potential paramours connected with the two. Baelish possibly being connected to the Velaryons is another good one. I imagine Lord Oakenfist may have been a regular at the Ragmans Harbour of Braavos.

You and CF raise good points about the scabbards and pommells.Would a Valyrian scabbard perhaps be made from Dragonhide?

I knew you and @Seams would hit it off.  

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I think that Vigilance is an interesting one, when we pair it with the House Words of The Hightowers "We Light The Way" they both sound like statements about their role 

 

 

Vigilance: the action or state of keeping careful watch for possible danger or difficulties. Which is interesting. There are a lot of us who feel the House words are revealing as to the roles and purposes of certain Houses. And I think the names of some of the swords are too. We light the way evokes looking out for something too, and a Hightower in itself is a look out. I do wonder if the height of the High Tower is such that a signal might be seen from there? We haven't met any current Hightowers in the story yet. But they certainly seem interesting. Funnily enough. The Hightowers though they claim to be of the First men are suspected by Maester Yandal to actually be descended from seafarers who arrived in Westeros before the first men. And they too live on an Island. 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

And then we have the rumours of Necromancy? WTF. yeah raising the dead via magic. And he (leyton) is up in his tower with the mad maid consulting spell books? This is said in a way which implies he is doing so as a response to the IB, but what if it's not, what if it's because he has heard the dead are walking up north? 

[Curled Finger]

24 minutes ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

Thank you @Curled Finger

It really has been a pleasure weaving this theory and I found so much in the process which I had utterly missed on all my read-throughs.  I think there is much to be learnt from searching specific words and phrases. 

I'm working on where Edric & Gerold Dayne fall into this. And wonder just now if Darkstar might get Nightfall? Seems fitting. 

I see you've posted a Part 2, so I will get to that right away.    It will be utterly fascinating to see how you are able to fit Edric & Darkstar into your narrative.   You can bet I'm totally standing by for that.    

I did see the very end of your next post and agree that Brienne fits the Galahad Perfect Knight persona.   On the subject off the subject because I can't help myself, what of our lady's new ability to lie?  Do you think guile will figure into her development?

[One-eyed Misbehavin]

8 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Yes!   Face off duel with @One-eyed Misbehavin!  Let's do this, Brother...

1. I like Heartsbane for Jorah The Lovesick.   No reason other than the name and he is one of the few I think could handle the big sword. 

2. I'm good with Arya with DS.   But I do think all these people with the swords are gonna die.   Except the one with Lightbringer.  Make your peace with it.  

3.  I've got Tormund earmarked for Longclaw due to his immediate proximity in Jon's absence. 

4.  I'm good with Dany with Blackfyre, but I think the crown is in the crypts, but you give them both to Jon so we appear to agree.

5.  I love this.   Oh LSH will get Widow's Wail, but I think she may already have OK.  1st choice was Arya with WW to give LSH the gift of mercy.  We have the same conclusion by different roads. 

6.   Oh hell yes on Greatjon with a big sword. 

7.  Gads.   The tattered prince?  Really?  I'm close to convinced it's in Dorne so I will take Gerold Dayne.

8.  Right on.   Brienne deserves OK, even if I have a feeling she won't be getting it back.   

9.  I had Lothor Brune earmarked for Lady Forlorn.   I really want him to be a good guy.   Maybe whack Frickin Little Finger with it.

10.  Oooh, nice one.  I hadn't considered Stannis would get a sword but that's not bad.  I've got Garlan Tyrell due to proximity.  We've got 3, maybe 4 swords in this little hotspot.  I'm still trying to place worthy wielders in the area but I like Theon for Red Rain somewhere down the road.  I'm not sure I'm ready to consign Davos to death yet.   Let me ponder this for a while.  

11. You got me again.   I didn't see that coming.   Marwyn has Orphan-Maker the only sword that happens to match his cool black candle.  Nice one.   Now Gendry with WW is nice too, as I see it as a Baratheon sword.  

12.  Don't kill Areo Hotah.   I love that guy.  

Your miscellaneous VS items:hero line up is fine and dandy.   That was so much fun--Thank you!   

 

1. I was absolutely blinded by Jorah having Longclaw. I said Tormund bc of his sons. But he's too jolly for that sword. I agree it'll take a certain (size) man to wield Heartsbane.

Slightly off topic I like how Jon recognizes that if you are going to carry one of these legendary swords then "the man has to be as great as the sword" or whatever that quote was. 

2. Please don't break my little old heart. I love Arya I mean she is one of my very favorite characters of all time. 

3. I couldn't agree more about Tormund. He could literally "pick up the sword" and defend Jon. Jon wouldn't just forget about that. This one is one I might bet on. Very nice

4. Interesting about WF crypts, there has to be something down there, the crown fits as well as anything. And better than most. I like it

5. I've always thought Arya would be the one to and you said it perfectly give the gift of mercy. (This actually would be a mercy kill) 

I think Arya could end up with Widow's Wail easily. Carry a piece of "home" or her mother with her.

6. That was my only reasoning lol but I do think Sam has to bring Heartsbane back for plot and bc it just makes sense

7. I'm a little unfamiliar with the full history but I do know a bit of house Rogare. I think Dragonstone is possible too and Loras missed it.

But yeah I could just see a badass ex prince of Pentos having it and we get some answers about him (the Truth) especially since The 3 sisters have been so unimportant in every way. And we know Moredo led an a host against Lys after they messed with his family. 

Id love to hear your Truth in Dorne theory. @Curled Finger

8. I feel like she'll try to give it back and be rejected gotta be her sword

9. Brune is my pick to kill LF and serve Sansa. Lyn will be caught up playing in to many people's games and Corbray vs Brune would be an amazing fight

10. I didn't think of Garlan (even Willas might end up getting his hands on it) this makes a lot of sense to me. You got me on this one.

Harras is not long for this world and Nightfall should be on the market very soon.

11. Yessss you got my reference. Marwyn loves that candle and he knows Bold JonRoxton. I thought of this one awhile back and like it more and more

I thought of Widow's Wail and Gendry bc I said Stoneheart might get ahold of it. And I had just read the part of the world book  about Orys and the Baratheon story and couldn't help myself. 

12. I'm hyped for this fight.

This thread is killing it.

 

[The Weirwoods Eyes]

I'm not sure on Brienne and the lying. She certainly has never done so in the past, but has had to employ that guile in order to lure Jaime away. I'm wondering about this myself.

I have another theory about Darkstar. I think he was a squire at the TOJ. There is a thread archived from a few years ago where I set this theory out. If you ever fancy reading it. But due to the fact I think this, he has to know who Jon really is. And I think he not only knows Jon Snow is Lyanna & Rhaegars' but that he also witnessed their wedding. So I think eventually he will make his way to the Boy LC of the NW and pledge his sword.  Yes, I know DS is a bit of a dick and doesn't come over as a great guy. But I also have to bear in mind that GRRM intended him to be a badass who people would like.  So I like the idea of him ending up by Jons side works, and where most think he'll go to fAegon; because I think he knows Jon is who he is. I think not or that if he does once fAegon is revealed as fake and or dies he'll seek out Jon instead.  As to how he'd end up with the rather fitting Nightfall? I haven't got there yet.  Nor have any idea as to Edric and if he'll become anyone of importance. He's too young to be a warrior in the upcoming battle really.

[Curled Finger]

53 minutes ago, One-eyed Misbehavin said:

1. I was absolutely blinded by Jorah having Longclaw. I said Tormund bc of his sons. But he's too jolly for that sword. I agree it'll take a certain (size) man to wield Heartsbane.

Slightly off topic I like how Jon recognizes that if you are going to carry one of these legendary swords then "the man has to be as great as the sword" or whatever that quote was. 

2. Please don't break my little old heart. I love Arya I mean she is one of my very favorite characters of all time. 

3. I couldn't agree more about Tormund. He could literally "pick up the sword" and defend Jon. Jon wouldn't just forget about that. This one is one I might bet on. Very nice

4. Interesting about WF crypts, there has to be something down there, the crown fits as well as anything. And better than most. I like it

5. I've always thought Arya would be the one to and you said it perfectly give the gift of mercy. (This actually would be a mercy kill) 

I think Arya could end up with Widow's Wail easily. Carry a piece of "home" or her mother with her.

6. That was my only reasoning lol but I do think Sam has to bring Heartsbane back for plot and bc it just makes sense

7. I'm a little unfamiliar with the full history but I do know a bit of house Rogare. I think Dragonstone is possible too and Loras missed it.

But yeah I could just see a badass ex prince of Pentos having it and we get some answers about him (the Truth) especially since The 3 sisters have been so unimportant in every way. And we know Moredo led an a host against Lys after they messed with his family. 

Id love to hear your Truth in Dorne theory. @Curled Finger

8. I feel like she'll try to give it back and be rejected gotta be her sword

9. Brune is my pick to kill LF and serve Sansa. Lyn will be caught up playing in to many people's games and Corbray vs Brune would be an amazing fight

10. I didn't think of Garlan (even Willas might end up getting his hands on it) this makes a lot of sense to me. You got me on this one.

Harras is not long for this world and Nightfall should be on the market very soon.

11. Yessss you got my reference. Marwyn loves that candle and he knows Bold JonRoxton. I thought of this one awhile back and like it more and more

I thought of Widow's Wail and Gendry bc I said Stoneheart might get ahold of it. And I had just read the part of the world book  about Orys and the Baratheon story and couldn't help myself. 

12. I'm hyped for this fight.

This thread is killing it.

 

Our duel was a blast.  Enjoyed every second of it.   I need to clarify a couple of things.   The idea that the swords will play an important role in endgame is something I (and many many others) came up with by myself.   It is the thing that caused my 1st reread because I hated the story at 1st.   Now then, I've dedicated a great deal of my reading and time to researching the swords.   But mostly I like to talk with other folks about it.   You've given me credit where it isn't due, Brother.   So let me take this opportunity to clarify a thing or 2.  @Seams is the brilliant mind who took the time to really explain how and why Truth could be in Dorne to me.   I hope she will reply to us with her research findings because this is a free for all where reiteration is encouraged.   I have OK earmarked for Jamie, but I haven't really put it all together.   It's really the thing bothering me these days.   You can read @The Weirwoods Eyes lovely and compelling theory about Brienne and Nightfall which plays no small part in my reassigning OK to Jamie.  I've tapped Garland Tyrell for Nightfall, true, but that is because I was persuaded by @chrisdaw a long time ago with some really nice word connections.  As I've bemoaned repeatedly, my list of potential heroes is 28 long at last count.   I think the swords will change hands a few times before the final 12 head north for the finale.   I can visualize Garland taking NF north and Brienne taking possession there, securing her place among the 12.  I hate this because I love Brienne and like Davos, I don't want to see her die.    Westeros will need the few good after the battle for dawn is won.   What would Westeros be without Brienne, Sam and Davos?   In kind, I don't see Arya making the final 12.  Her skill is in her little Needle, but I do see the need for her to understand what the ability to kill for the sake of mercy is.   Widow's Wail is simply a perfect fit here.   I haven't reconciled it, but there is no denying it's there in a 72 point bold font.   We haven't discussed The Hound, or Sandor at all yet.   He's a big dude, more than capable of handling Heartsbane.   We know swords have washed ashore at the Quiet Isle.   My money is on Orphan-Maker there.  Here's another one that isn't mine, but my friend Shellie's, who doesn't post here.   Quaithe give Dany specific instructions for finding Truth.  Whether the sword, as @Lady Blizzardborn first shared with me or a literal truth, there are clearly defined directions.  Brienne, Septon Meribald and company actually run this directional gamut to find the Quiet Isle.   Read it if you haven't.   It will blow you away.   Wherever Truth actually is it's listed as a Westerosi sword.  Logic demands that Truth is actually in Westeros by my reckoning.  The idea of Sandor Clegane with Truth gives me shivers.  We know almost nothing about Truth.   It could easily be a big sword worthy of our big Hound.   I gotta tell you that whole Orphan-Maker with Marwyn is a bitchen idea.  It has me rooting for Truth to be on the QI so that Alleras at the Citadel can go North with Orphan-Maker.   Maybe accompanying Sam.     

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I think that Vigilance is an interesting one, when we pair it with the House Words of The Hightowers "We Light The Way" they both sound like statements about their role 

 

 

Vigilance: the action or state of keeping careful watch for possible danger or difficulties. Which is interesting. There are a lot of us who feel the House words are revealing as to the roles and purposes of certain Houses. And I think the names of some of the swords are too. We light the way evokes looking out for something too, and a Hightower in itself is a look out. I do wonder if the height of the High Tower is such that a signal might be seen from there? We haven't met any current Hightowers in the story yet. But they certainly seem interesting. Funnily enough. The Hightowers though they claim to be of the First men are suspected by Maester Yandal to actually be descended from seafarers who arrived in Westeros before the first men. And they too live on an Island. 

We Light The Way.  We Remember.   Winter Is Coming.  Off the top of my head.   I think this is an excellent opportunity to bring up the original Last Hero's quest with an eye to determining who the heroes were and why.  You remember our friend @Modesty Lannister and her wonderful ideas about the original crew.  Since then I've looked into some of the house mottos--even listed them on my spread sheet.   Gads, it's fun being a frickin sword geek, isn't it?   I can't help but try to link the original heroes, who I assume are the ancestors of the original VS sword holders.   But the math doesn't add up and I only come up with 10 via that route.  Still, there is no denying that those mottos are important.  Modesty Lannister also had the notion that perhaps Roddy the Ruin may have taken Vigilance from the Hightowers.   I've looked and don't see Vigilance connected to the Dustins and of course, we have no house motto either.  However, nothing says Ned didn't bury the sword with the body at the TOJ.   It is a fun idea and once grasped it opens up an entirely new way of reading the histories.   Hightower as a look out is a clean clear connection.  Any thoughts on Leyton & The Mad Maid studying spells in relation to this connection?  

[hiemal]

Spitball: Valyrian Steel is an alloy that represents on a mythic level the magical hybridization that allowed some of the Valyrians to become dragonriders. They are forged with literal fire (from dragons) and literal blood (from human sacrifice). VS is the alloy associated with the "children" of the Great Empire of the Dawn and dragons (the element of fire) in the same way that obsidian is associated with the Children of the Forest and the weirwoods (earth), the oily black stone with the Deep Ones and krakens (water), and the ice blades eith the Others and ice dragons (ice- duh). Air seems to mostly unrepresented, although I guess the Winged Men of the Far East could fit the bill maybe?

[Curled Finger]

4 minutes ago, hiemal said:

Spitball: Valyrian Steel is an alloy that represents on a mythic level the magical hybridization that allowed some of the Valyrians to become dragonriders. They are forged with literal fire (from dragons) and literal blood (from human sacrifice). VS is the alloy associated with the "children" of the Great Empire of the Dawn and dragons (the element of fire) in the same way that obsidian is associated with the Children of the Forest and the weirwoods (earth), the oily black stone with the Deep Ones and krakens (water), and the ice blades eith the Others and ice dragons (ice- duh). Air seems to mostly unrepresented, although I guess the Winged Men of the Far East could fit the bill maybe?

That's simply bitchen.   My thoughts turned to this hybridization of the Valyrians earlier this week.  That went in a deeply weird direction and my temporary conclusion is best left unsaid.   Suffice it to say I got over it with help from my friend.   Now then, I really like your well worded "alloy that represents..." statement.  Your comparisons are fair and rational to the elemental representatives of magic.  I do want to know how the oily black stone got connected to water though.   I did some google research for "Oily Stone" earlier in the week and came up with shale, but never thought to look to water for an oily residue.   Valyrians themselves are critical here in a VS sword discussion.   A great deal known and unknown I suspect, goes into the creation of VS.  How and why would a Valyrian magic weapon end up in the hands of so many First Men (also pretty magical if you ask me) in Westeros?  

[Curled Finger]

1 hour ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

I'm not sure on Brienne and the lying. She certainly has never done so in the past, but has had to employ that guile in order to lure Jaime away. I'm wondering about this myself.

I have another theory about Darkstar. I think he was a squire at the TOJ. There is a thread archived from a few years ago where I set this theory out. If you ever fancy reading it. But due to the fact I think this, he has to know who Jon really is. And I think he not only knows Jon Snow is Lyanna & Rhaegars' but that he also witnessed their wedding. So I think eventually he will make his way to the Boy LC of the NW and pledge his sword.  Yes, I know DS is a bit of a dick and doesn't come over as a great guy. But I also have to bear in mind that GRRM intended him to be a badass who people would like.  So I like the idea of him ending up by Jons side works, and where most think he'll go to fAegon; because I think he knows Jon is who he is. I think not or that if he does once fAegon is revealed as fake and or dies he'll seek out Jon instead.  As to how he'd end up with the rather fitting Nightfall? I haven't got there yet.  Nor have any idea as to Edric and if he'll become anyone of importance. He's too young to be a warrior in the upcoming battle really.

Weirwood, I need to see this topic.  Can you link it for everyone?  I read something somewhere saying GRRM was surprised by fans' reactions to Darkstar.  That he was written to be comic book cool, not a jerk.   Your Darkstar idea never once occurred to me as I've been waiting for Lem Lemoncloak (Lonmouth???) to be this guy, but dang.   I do recall reading GRRM SSM when speaking of the abandoned 5 year gap plan that if it had to be a 12 year old child who saves the world then so be it.   So let's not count Edric Dayne out of the game just yet.   After all Bran can't even walk and managed to get a very long way as an 8 or 9 year old.

To Brienne's perfect knightness:  I'm arguing a case with myself about Brienne having to learn guile, or lose innocence rather, in order to achieve situational perfection.   Can you imagine a person of her high morality becoming clever on top of it?  I don't think Brienne's got it in her to be like Sandor, kill kill die die for the joy of it.  But I do see her personality compatible with Jamie's in taking the absolute hardest route to the most right thing.  And I can see Brienne killing Aerys without the crippling guilt Jamie suffers because she knows it was the right thing to do with no doubt.   I think I see that real black and white resolve in our Lady that may eventually allow her to make some hard decisions without 2nd guessing herself.   

[hiemal]

20 minutes ago, Curled Finger said:

That's simply bitchen.   My thoughts turned to this hybridization of the Valyrians earlier this week.  That went in a deeply weird direction and my temporary conclusion is best left unsaid.   Suffice it to say I got over it with help from my friend.   Now then, I really like your well worded "alloy that represents..." statement.  Your comparisons are fair and rational to the elemental representatives of magic.  I do want to know how the oily black stone got connected to water though.   I did some google research for "Oily Stone" earlier in the week and came up with shale, but never thought to look to water for an oily residue.   Valyrians themselves are critical here in a VS sword discussion.   A great deal known and unknown I suspect, goes into the creation of VS.  How and why would a Valyrian magic weapon end up in the hands of so many First Men (also pretty magical if you ask me) in Westeros?  

Me too- I suspect that it is also a hybrid material. My guess would be stone infused with the power of the void, since the Deep Ones seem to linked with the nothingness of space. I don't think there is any specific earth analog, unlike valyrian steel and Damascus steel (VS using dragon bone instead of high and low carbon steels) or our own version of obsidian, which iirc GRRM spake out about as being different from the obsidian in Westeros (fire and earth?) That would make the Others' blades an "alloy"of water and air perhaps?

TBH, I'm a lot more sure of the sexual imagery behind the alloys as being representative of genetic monkeying around (the Lightbringer myth being the key to everything) than their literal make-up. We have claims of the Gray King taking a merling bride and hints of human/CotF unions as well.

A cigar is sometimes just a cigar and sometimes a sword isn't just a sword.

Why were the Valyrians so eager for gold that they were willing to sell such strong arms to potential enemies? What was the Valyrians relationship with Westeros and why were they so hesitant to invade? What did they want and what did they fear?

 

[Curled Finger]

1 minute ago, hiemal said:

Me too- I suspect that it is also a hybrid material. My guess would be stone infused with the power of the void, since the Deep Ones seem to linked with the nothingness of space. I don't think there is any specific earth analog, unless valyrian steel and Damascus steel (VS using dragon bone instead of high and low carbon steels) or our own version of obsidian, which iirc GRRM spake out about as being different from the obsidian in Westeros (fire and earth?) That would make the Others' blades an "alloy"of water and air perhaps?

TBH, I'm a lot more sure of the sexual imagery behind the alloys as being representative of genetic monkeying around (the Lightbringer myth being the key to everything) than their literal make-up. We have claims of the Gray King taking a merling bride and hints of human/CotF unions as well.

A cigar is sometimes only a cigar and sometimes a sword isn't just a sword.

Why were the Valyrians so eager for gold that they were willing to sell such strong arms to potential enemies? What was the Valyrians relationship with Westeros and why were they so hesitant to invade? What did they want and what did they fear?

 

Nicely done, Ser, thank you!  Let me ask 1 more question, if I may.  The Others' blades a potential alloy or water and air, or as you say, duh--ice...We would need to establish our Air elementals wouldn't we?  I understand how dragons relate directly to fire, but why wouldn't dragons and comets for that matter, represent air?  

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, The Weirwoods Eyes said:

And then we have the rumours of Necromancy? WTF. yeah raising the dead via magic. And he (leyton) is up in his tower with the mad maid consulting spell books? This is said in a way which implies he is doing so as a response to the IB, but what if it's not, what if it's because he has heard the dead are walking up north? 

And what of Dagon Drumm, the Necromancer, whose descendant Dunstin The Bone Hand, currently wields Red Rain right there in the Hightowers' neighborhood?  I think that response to the IB may be a dual purpose sort of thing.