Valyrian Steel Swords Free For All

[Curled Finger]

7 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

This seems to just imply that the blade was stolen before that time.  Perhaps during/after the DOD when the Ironborn were raiding the Westerlands with impunity.

 

That's what I was thinking too, but the Iron Born and Reynes were on the same side.  Sort of.   It's a mystery for now.  I've been looking for both houses in the same place at the same time.   I can't find Drumm specifically.   I'm open to anything you've got.   And by the way, welcome.   I love it when you pop in.  

[aryagonnakill#2]

1 minute ago, Curled Finger said:

That's what I was thinking too, but the Iron Born and Reynes were on the same side.  Sort of.   It's a mystery for now.  I've been looking for both houses in the same place at the same time.   I can't find Drumm specifically.   I'm open to anything you've got.   And by the way, welcome.   I love it when you pop in.  

The Reynes were on the side of the blacks in the DOD?  Shit I don't remember that at all. 

We know from Tyrion the Ironborn have sacked Lannisport 2 or 3 times at least so any of those times could have resulted in the blade being captured as well.  I do think it's likely that the Reynes copied the Lannisters and got their blade after they did and tried to make it look like theirs.

 

Cheers!  Like reading your comments as well.

[Cridefea]

On 10/2/2017 at 7:58 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

I haven't seen anything that confirms Red Rain having a color different from other VS swords. Fantasy Flight Games has it being red in color, but I don't think that counts as canon. My theory is that it's called that because it makes blood rain, and blood is red. Or a play on words for House Reyne, but if it had been theirs, that means that Hilmar the Cunning took it directly from a Reyne before the destruction of their house. 

 

On 11/2/2017 at 5:33 AM, Curled Finger said:

I finally found it.   It's in the Wiki and who knows where that stems from.   Here is the quote from the results for Valyrian Steel:

• Red Rain, the sword of House Drumm, which was stolen by them in a raid.^[19] Given the name and coloring, possibly the ancestral sword of House Reyne.

Oh Ok, so it wasn't my lack of information!

I really can't understand where they took this info, sometimes it happens to be sure of things even if it's just our logic and not real facts. For ex, I was sure Brightroar was commissioned by Lannister and forged for them, while we don't know its origin and probably it was buyed from someone who owned it before Lannisters! So in the last post I was wrong, your discussion with @aryagonnakill#2 made me think about it.

Anyway, about Red Rain color, I think @Lady Blizzardborn is right. Here some quotes:

Quote

Suddenly Jory was back among them, a red rain flying from his sword.

Eddard IX - Got

in WoW:

Spoiler

She slipped it through his throat beneath the chin, twisted, and ripped it back out sideways with a single smooth slash. A fine red rain followed, and in his eyes the light went out.

Mercy - Wow

And interesting in the World of Ice and Fire - The Doom of Valyria:

Quote

Lakes boiled or turned to acid, mountains burst, fiery fountains spewed molten rock a thousand feet into the air, and red clouds rained down dragonglass and the black blood of demons.

 

 

On 10/2/2017 at 7:58 PM, Lady Blizzardborn said:

That's a very cool timeline!

Thank you!!  Hope it does help, Curled Finger did a great job!

[Curled Finger]

@Cridefea, it's as frustrating as fun to have a mystery to unravel.   The Wiki has become a dangerous place to cite for research.  On either the page I cited or the Red Rain page there is an artist's rendering of Red Rain with a red blade.   This drove me nuts for a full day as I scoured the web for images of the sword.   There were actually very few with Red Rain depicted as a red blade. At this point, all we can do is speculate.

You brought up a good point I haven't really given any thought to, the commission of swords.   It's pretty clear the Lannisters paid for their sword, but I am not finding any indication any other family actually paid.  The Targs, Rogares, Hightowers, Lannisters and Reynes were very wealthy and could afford to commission swords.   I think the Starks are well off and imagine the Tarlys, Corbrays and Royces were as well.   Though not verified I'm very fond of @The Weirwoods Eyes theory regarding Nightfall's origins in Tarth and tend to think the Even Star is well off, but not wealthy.

Quote

Why did you tell him Tarth was the Sapphire Isle?" Brienne whispered when Urswyck was out of earshot. "He's like to think my father's rich in gemstones . . ." Jamie 3 ASOS

In order to stir up an old conversation because I can't get enough of it...how the heck did the Mormonts get Longclaw?   I recently read a statement supposing Longclaw was originally a Stark sword gifted to the Mormonts.   I'm thinking this can't be right because why would any family give up such a rare and expensive item when they already gave this other family an island?   Longclaw predates Ice by a couple of hundred years.   That indicates to me that Longclaw was a Mormont sword.  I thought it was possible that the Mormonts may have been won or gifted or maybe even found Longclaw directly from a Valyrian.   Ah, I do love a juicy mystery!  

Here's another one to think about along the same lines.  Orphan-Maker's origins.  The Ring isn't a really big place and I haven't found anything to indicate it is or was a particularly wealthy place.   So how did the Roxtons end up with this exquisite sword?  Who were the 10 men who fell up Bold Jon at the 2nd Battle of Tumbledon?   Who was even 1 of the 10 men?   I have eliminated anyone from the Westerlands, North or Iron Islands by virtue of their fighting on the side of the Blacks during the DOD.   I'm very suspicious of anyone from the Stormlands and Reach (due to the Ring's proximity to both).  Is there some connection between Vigilance and Orphan-Maker (both Reach swords) since both haven't been seen since separate battles at this place?    What if anything does this say about Heartsbane, another Reach sword? 

Ah geez, sorry Cridefea, I could go on forever and often do when it comes to this.  Since you had such a critical part to play in our timeline publication and wanted to see a history, has the timeline helped you organize the swords in a linear way at all? 

 

[Cridefea]

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

The Wiki has become a dangerous place to cite for research.  On either the page I cited or the Red Rain page there is an artist's rendering of Red Rain with a red blade.

Yeah, I too looked for info in wiki, but I'm re-searching the colors and the sources now.  

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You brought up a good point I haven't really given any thought to, the commission of swords.

Most of the swords should be commisioned in origin, but then there are many ways to obtain them. Swords can pass from one person to another for many reasons: father to son, gained in battle, stolen, given/donated, purchased etc...

I thought brightroar was commissioned by Lannister, but "World of Ice and Fire" says that  it "came into the possession of the Lannister kings" and that they payed for it, they could have bought it from someone and it would be older than I thought. Don't know if this is important, however.

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Though not verified I'm very fond of @The Weirwoods Eyes theory regarding Nightfall's origins in Tarth and tend to think the Even Star is well off, but not wealthy.

it's a great theory!

6 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I thought it was possible that the Mormonts may have been won or gifted or maybe even found Longclaw directly from a Valyrian.

or found on Bear Island and it was a Greyjoy sword (??) LoL ok Now i'm making up fantasies. 

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Is there some connection between Vigilance and Orphan-Maker (both Reach swords) since both haven't been seen since separate battles at this place?

they shared their histories, I'm not sure but I think they were together in other battles... uhm not sure

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Ah geez, sorry Cridefea, I could go on forever and often do when it comes to this.  Since you had such a critical part to play in our timeline publication and wanted to see a history, has the timeline helped you organize the swords in a linear way at all? 

LoL np, I really enjoy riddles and mysteries, and Yes it helps me to keep a logical thread, to see relations and relationships between people and to read the stories as one story. Especially if your theory about the 12 is correct, I think it's important to look at them as linked.  Hope it can show us something new.

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I thought brightroar was commissioned by Lannister, but "World of Ice and Fire" says that  it "came into the possession of the Lannister kings" and that they payed for it, they could have bought it from someone and it would be older than I thought. Don't know if this is important, however.

or found on Bear Island and it was a Greyjoy sword (??) LoL ok Now i'm making up fantasies. 

I think that information in the World Book is critical.   The Lannisters paid.  Now I'm trying to figure out how that purchase plays into the unofficial house motto, "A Lannister always pays his debts".  

That was a curve ball for Longclaw being an IB sword originally.   Oh yeah, you've got it bad.  

I have always had this idea that the original owners of the swords and their original locations matters in the determining of both the reason for the quest as well as the identities of the original and secondary companions.    

[Leo of House Cartel]

@Curled Finger Hey man, I was wondering, what evidence do we have that Longclaw predates Ice? 

Regarding Longclaw, I would assume Bear Island has had some form of naval tradition over the years. Many raids from the Iron Born would have seen to that and it is said that the people of Bear Island may have more in common genetically with the IB than the people of The North by this point. By developing this seafaring nature, the Mormonts could have aqquired Longclaw through various means without having to pay for the blade - corsair thievery, piracy etc.

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

 I thought it was possible that the Mormonts may have been won or gifted or maybe even found Longclaw directly from a Valyrian.   Ah, I do love a juicy mystery!  

Well the name "Long Claw" would certainly fit for a Valyrians own sword!

The former Valyrian colony of Norvosh has many connection to bears, so this may be worth investigation. Perhaps some Norvoshi lord had an encounter with an old scion of House Mormont?  Bear Island and Norvos have several interesting things in common. Bears are known to parade down the Norvoshi Sinners Steps, which could signify some form of skinchanging. The Mormont womens boasts of "marrying bears" could also be taken as evidence of skinchanging. The Bearded Priests of Norvos have a bear like appearance in that they wear Hair shirts underneath untanned hides and grow massive beards. We know Jorah is described as having a thick abundance of body hair, and his father Jeor had a big shaggy beard. The Women of Norvosh shave their entire bodies bald, while the Mormont women are often described as physically imposing - both Norvoshi and Mormont women have traits which could be described as "breaking the stereotypical feminine mould".

How about the Norvoshi caravan captain Bryan Votyris? Bryan is the man who gives Jorah a letter from Illyrio in Vaes Dothrak, perhaps another hint from George? The Mormont banner of a black bear on green woods certainly draws comparisons to the Hills of Norvos. 

[Cridefea]

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I have always had this idea that the original owners of the swords and their original locations matters in the determining of both the reason for the quest as well as the identities of the original and secondary companions.  

I totally agree!

18 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Now I'm trying to figure out how that purchase plays into the unofficial house motto, "A Lannister always pays his debts".  

Uh I think you make a point! It could be one of the Lannister's most expensive purchasing.

9 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

Hey man, I was wondering, what evidence do we have that Longclaw predates Ice? 

Catelyn in Got says Ice is four hundred years old, while Jeor tells Jon in Got that the Mormonts have carried Lonclaw for five hundred years.

 

 

 

As for the color:

we have not descriptions for Heartsbane, Brightroar, Truth, Vigilance, Lamentation, Red Rain and Nightfall. 

Orphan-Maker and Blackfyre (its design suggests flames) are black  (source: SSM)

Longclaw dark steel (source: Got)

Ice dark as smoke (source: Got)

Dark Sister and Lady Forlorn are smokey grey , probably 2 different shades of grey (yeah I know, sorry I wouldn't  want to quote anything ) (source: SSM)

[aryagonnakill#2]

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 8:50 AM, Curled Finger said:

@Cridefea, it's as frustrating as fun to have a mystery to unravel.   The Wiki has become a dangerous place to cite for research.  On either the page I cited or the Red Rain page there is an artist's rendering of Red Rain with a red blade.   This drove me nuts for a full day as I scoured the web for images of the sword.   There were actually very few with Red Rain depicted as a red blade. At this point, all we can do is speculate.

You brought up a good point I haven't really given any thought to, the commission of swords.   It's pretty clear the Lannisters paid for their sword, but I am not finding any indication any other family actually paid.  The Targs, Rogares, Hightowers, Lannisters and Reynes were very wealthy and could afford to commission swords.   I think the Starks are well off and imagine the Tarlys, Corbrays and Royces were as well.   Though not verified I'm very fond of @The Weirwoods Eyes theory regarding Nightfall's origins in Tarth and tend to think the Even Star is well off, but not wealthy.

In order to stir up an old conversation because I can't get enough of it...how the heck did the Mormonts get Longclaw?   I recently read a statement supposing Longclaw was originally a Stark sword gifted to the Mormonts.   I'm thinking this can't be right because why would any family give up such a rare and expensive item when they already gave this other family an island?   Longclaw predates Ice by a couple of hundred years.   That indicates to me that Longclaw was a Mormont sword.  I thought it was possible that the Mormonts may have been won or gifted or maybe even found Longclaw directly from a Valyrian.   Ah, I do love a juicy mystery!  

Here's another one to think about along the same lines.  Orphan-Maker's origins.  The Ring isn't a really big place and I haven't found anything to indicate it is or was a particularly wealthy place.   So how did the Roxtons end up with this exquisite sword?  Who were the 10 men who fell up Bold Jon at the 2nd Battle of Tumbledon?   Who was even 1 of the 10 men?   I have eliminated anyone from the Westerlands, North or Iron Islands by virtue of their fighting on the side of the Blacks during the DOD.   I'm very suspicious of anyone from the Stormlands and Reach (due to the Ring's proximity to both).  Is there some connection between Vigilance and Orphan-Maker (both Reach swords) since both haven't been seen since separate battles at this place?    What if anything does this say about Heartsbane, another Reach sword? 

Ah geez, sorry Cridefea, I could go on forever and often do when it comes to this.  Since you had such a critical part to play in our timeline publication and wanted to see a history, has the timeline helped you organize the swords in a linear way at all? 

 

They were sellswords/hedge knights who were following Hugh the Hammer.  I personally assume they would have left Westeros to sell the blade in Volantis or another free city.

 

On ‎2‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 4:29 PM, Cridefea said:

Yeah, I too looked for info in wiki, but I'm re-searching the colors and the sources now.  

Most of the swords should be commisioned in origin, but then there are many ways to obtain them. Swords can pass from one person to another for many reasons: father to son, gained in battle, stolen, given/donated, purchased etc...

I thought brightroar was commissioned by Lannister, but "World of Ice and Fire" says that  it "came into the possession of the Lannister kings" and that they payed for it, they could have bought it from someone and it would be older than I thought. Don't know if this is important, however.

it's a great theory!

or found on Bear Island and it was a Greyjoy sword (??) LoL ok Now i'm making up fantasies. 

they shared their histories, I'm not sure but I think they were together in other battles... uhm not sure

LoL np, I really enjoy riddles and mysteries, and Yes it helps me to keep a logical thread, to see relations and relationships between people and to read the stories as one story. Especially if your theory about the 12 is correct, I think it's important to look at them as linked.  Hope it can show us something new.

You have to pay for a blade you commission, the red color would suggest that to me at least.

 

As far as simply finding it, or it being a Greyjoys in particular ya, but an Ironborn raiding the island who had stolen the blade elsewhere just like with Nightfall and Red Rain, and that blade in turn being taken by the Mormonts seems most likely to me as there is no way they could afford it. 

 

[Curled Finger]

45 minutes ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

They were sellswords/hedge knights who were following Hugh the Hammer.  I personally assume they would have left Westeros to sell the blade in Volantis or another free city.

 

You have to pay for a blade you commission, the red color would suggest that to me at least.

 

As far as simply finding it, or it being a Greyjoys in particular ya, but an Ironborn raiding the island who had stolen the blade elsewhere just like with Nightfall and Red Rain, and that blade in turn being taken by the Mormonts seems most likely to me as there is no way they could afford it. 

 

You know, arya, i remember the 1st time you shared that and there may well be something to it.   TBH, I'm hoping the sword that was taken across the pond was Truth.   Why not?  We have some heavy indication that Blackfyre was.   Won't we all feel like silly geese if it's Dark Sister!   Still, there are many really good possible locations for 5 of these swords and dammit, I want them found PRONTO!  

I've thought there was something really hinky in the Iron Born possessing not 1 but 2 swords in present time.  Longclaw is a big fat mystery.  As I've confessed I think the original sword locations and families play into where and who may wield them next.  Could these 2 swords be an indication that there was an Iron Born sword originally?  We have no factual text indicating where Orphan-Maker, Nightfall or Longclaw came from.  We know Nightfall wasn't originally an IB sword and all we have for Longclaw is that it is the ancestral sword of House Mormont.  I'm taking that to indicate the Mormonts have always had it.  Or maybe this is a case where the Mormonts have simply had it so long no one remembers how they came into it's possession.  Yep, a big fat mystery.   

[Curled Finger]

15 hours ago, Leo of House Cartel said:

@Curled Finger Hey man, I was wondering, what evidence do we have that Longclaw predates Ice? 

Regarding Longclaw, I would assume Bear Island has had some form of naval tradition over the years. Many raids from the Iron Born would have seen to that and it is said that the people of Bear Island may have more in common genetically with the IB than the people of The North by this point. By developing this seafaring nature, the Mormonts could have aqquired Longclaw through various means without having to pay for the blade - corsair thievery, piracy etc.

Well the name "Long Claw" would certainly fit for a Valyrians own sword!

The former Valyrian colony of Norvosh has many connection to bears, so this may be worth investigation. Perhaps some Norvoshi lord had an encounter with an old scion of House Mormont?  Bear Island and Norvos have several interesting things in common. Bears are known to parade down the Norvoshi Sinners Steps, which could signify some form of skinchanging. The Mormont womens boasts of "marrying bears" could also be taken as evidence of skinchanging. The Bearded Priests of Norvos have a bear like appearance in that they wear Hair shirts underneath untanned hides and grow massive beards. We know Jorah is described as having a thick abundance of body hair, and his father Jeor had a big shaggy beard. The Women of Norvosh shave their entire bodies bald, while the Mormont women are often described as physically imposing - both Norvoshi and Mormont women have traits which could be described as "breaking the stereotypical feminine mould".

How about the Norvoshi caravan captain Bryan Votyris? Bryan is the man who gives Jorah a letter from Illyrio in Vaes Dothrak, perhaps another hint from George? The Mormont banner of a black bear on green woods certainly draws comparisons to the Hills of Norvos. 

Oh that's a sweet little avenue of research.   I'm not sure I can cite the Mormonts naval traditions, but it sure makes sense that they would need to get to food and fight off the IB before they got ashore.   Nice. Nice. Nice. You know what this immediately brought to mind?  The wrestling match between old Rodrick Stark and the unknown Iron Born.  Why give Bear Island to the Mormonts?  They had to be strong fighters even in the way back.  Now we know the Wulls are a fierce bunch, fighting off Wildlings and Iron Born--where did the Mormonts come from anyway?   There is a chunk of World Book section on the Mountain Clans of the North dedicated to the Wulls.  Oh this just gets weirder and stranger.  Now I have to go look into Norvos if for nothing else but to distract myself from these damned mysterious Mormonts.  Doran's wife is there.   I'm gonna look her up.  

I see Miss @Cridefea is fast becoming a full fledged sword geek and already answered your question about Longclaw and Ice.  I trust you were satisfied and as tickled as I was.   The last person I watched become one of the rank is @Seams.   Now we can take lessons from her!  You're not too shabby yourself, Leo.  I can't see much getting by you, Ser.  It's an interesting connection and I will be looking into it.  As soon as I get my damned maps back which I hope is tomorrow!  

[Curled Finger]

6 hours ago, Cridefea said:

I totally agree!

Uh I think you make a point! It could be one of the Lannister's most expensive purchasing.

Catelyn in Got says Ice is four hundred years old, while Jeor tells Jon in Got that the Mormonts have carried Lonclaw for five hundred years.

 

 

 

As for the color:

we have not descriptions for Heartsbane, Brightroar, Truth, Vigilance, Lamentation, Red Rain and Nightfall. 

Orphan-Maker and Blackfyre (its design suggests flames) are black  (source: SSM)

Longclaw dark steel (source: Got)

Ice dark as smoke (source: Got)

Dark Sister and Lady Forlorn are smokey grey , probably 2 different shades of grey (yeah I know, sorry I wouldn't  want to quote anything ) (source: SSM)

Everyone loves a good list.  Thanks for the quick reference! 

[Leo of House Cartel]

10 hours ago, Cridefea said:

 

Catelyn in Got says Ice is four hundred years old, while Jeor tells Jon in Got that the Mormonts have carried Lonclaw for five hundred years.

 

Hey Cridefea, much appreciated :-) 

 

5 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

They were sellswords/hedge knights who were following Hugh the Hammer.  I personally assume they would have left Westeros to sell the blade in Volantis or another free city.

 

I had a similiar thought arya, a VS blade known as "Orphan Maker" would fit nicely in Volantis or another of the slave heavy free cities.  The name suggests either "parent killer" or "one who sends others off to war", both common themes in Volantene/Free Cities culture. I assume the Old Blood behind The Black Walls would have been keeping a close eye on the events of The Dance, so some Westerosi turning up in Volantis with a Valyrian Sword could certainly have been enough for them to send a few feelers out.

I wonder if any of those hedge knights/sellswords defected from the blacks with Hugh and Ulf? If they are of Dragonstone origin, could they mayhaps have returned to Dragonstone with the blade after the end of the Hour of The Wolf? Hugh Hammer was also named Lord of Bitterbridge as thanks for his service during first Tumbleton. Could his men have sought shelter there?

Another alternative could be Benjicott Blackwood and Bill Burley, or someone else sworn to Raventree Hall. We know of the Dance between Vermithor, Seasmoke and Tessarion at the end of Second Tumbleton, which would have been in close enough proximity to Bold Jons corpse for whoever took his blade to get involved.

4 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

You know what this immediately brought to mind?  The wrestling match between old Rodrick Stark and the unknown Iron Born.  Why give Bear Island to the Mormonts?  They had to be strong fighters even in the way back.  Now we know the Wulls are a fierce bunch, fighting off Wildlings and Iron Born--where did the Mormonts come from anyway?   There is a chunk of World Book section on the Mountain Clans of the North dedicated to the Wulls. 

The wrestling match makes me think of Abraham Lincoln, who was said to be a proud grappler. Honest Abe was also a patron of anti-slavery, which could parrallel King Rodrick Stark grappling with the Iron Born for the freedom of fellow Northmen. The IB conquering Bear Island would surley result in some form of enslavement for the locals. I know the Iron Men prefer to brand it "enthrallment" but it's not far off.

I like your thinking, the Wulls share many traditions with the Mormonts, such as Northern grit, physical toughness, anti wildling/IB mentalities and loyalty to The Starks. Both are in also in close proximitiy. The Bay of Ice houses several areas which may be of use to our search. To the south is Sea Dragon Point, once ruled by The Warg King.This may be clutching at straws, but a sword named Longclaw would certainly have fit for a Wolf Brother who led "an army of greenseers". Northeast of the Bay of Ice lies Westwatch by The Bridge and The Bridge of Skulls, certainly close enough to Bear Island for some Crow to have taken his blade to the Mormonts.

[Cridefea]

11 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

I see Miss @Cridefea is fast becoming a full fledged sword geek and already answered your question about Longclaw and Ice.  I trust you were satisfied and as tickled as I was.   The last person I watched become one of the rank is @Seams.   Now we can take lessons from her!  You're not too shabby yourself, Leo.  I can't see much getting by you, Ser.  It's an interesting connection and I will be looking into it.  As soon as I get my damned maps back which I hope is tomorrow!  

Lol, you two are the Maesters!!  I can't becoming geeker than you! 

12 hours ago, aryagonnakill#2 said:

 

 

You have to pay for a blade you commission, the red color would suggest that to me at least.

 

As far as simply finding it, or it being a Greyjoys in particular ya, but an Ironborn raiding the island who had stolen the blade elsewhere just like with Nightfall and Red Rain, and that blade in turn being taken by the Mormonts seems most likely to me as there is no way they could afford it. 

 

Yes, you have to pay. I think they are all buyed in origin, or most of all.

 

Sorry i'm by phone now and i'm not able to write this way 

[Belgarad]

I have a couple of ``Sword Thoughts``.  

Like many others I believe that Dark Sister is with Bloodraven in the cave.  He`s the last known owner of the sword and then it completely disappears from historical record when he is sent to the wall.  It`s very unlikely that King Egg would let him take it with him to the wall since it`s now the last Valyrian Steel Sword the Targaryens have left.  I feel like Bloodraven had a sense of what was going to happen in the future and that the sword would be more useful up North so he used magic to glamour the sword to look like an ordinary steel sword and took it with him.  Basically the opposite of what Mel does with ``Lightbringer``.

I think there are still a few unnamed Valyrian Steel Swords among the less powerful houses in Westeros.  If a house like Mormont has one then there are likely others still clinging to theirs.  If Tywin tried so hard to buy one from a poorer house then it stands to reason there were more potential sellers than just the Mormonts and the two Iron Islands ones.  What strikes me as odd is that Tywin did not just try to buy up many more small VS items like Littlefinger`s dagger and then have Tobho Mott rework the steel into a new sword.  I understand a house holding onto their sword because of the status of being one of the few to own a Valyrian Steel sword, but I doubt that same status is conferred on those who own miscellaneous Valyrian Steel items.  If I was Tywin I would have also sent an offer to the Citadel to buy some of their Valyrian Steel.  Sure it would have taken many chain links to get the several pounds needed to make a sword but if anyone has the resources needed to purchase all those items it`s Tywin.

[Curled Finger]

On 2/13/2017 at 2:18 PM, Cridefea said:

 

 

[Curled Finger]

2 hours ago, Belgarad said:

I have a couple of ``Sword Thoughts``.  

Like many others I believe that Dark Sister is with Bloodraven in the cave.  He`s the last known owner of the sword and then it completely disappears from historical record when he is sent to the wall.  It`s very unlikely that King Egg would let him take it with him to the wall since it`s now the last Valyrian Steel Sword the Targaryens have left.  I feel like Bloodraven had a sense of what was going to happen in the future and that the sword would be more useful up North so he used magic to glamour the sword to look like an ordinary steel sword and took it with him.  Basically the opposite of what Mel does with ``Lightbringer``.

I think there are still a few unnamed Valyrian Steel Swords among the less powerful houses in Westeros.  If a house like Mormont has one then there are likely others still clinging to theirs.  If Tywin tried so hard to buy one from a poorer house then it stands to reason there were more potential sellers than just the Mormonts and the two Iron Islands ones.  What strikes me as odd is that Tywin did not just try to buy up many more small VS items like Littlefinger`s dagger and then have Tobho Mott rework the steel into a new sword.  I understand a house holding onto their sword because of the status of being one of the few to own a Valyrian Steel sword, but I doubt that same status is conferred on those who own miscellaneous Valyrian Steel items.  If I was Tywin I would have also sent an offer to the Citadel to buy some of their Valyrian Steel.  Sure it would have taken many chain links to get the several pounds needed to make a sword but if anyone has the resources needed to purchase all those items it`s Tywin.

Hey Belgarad, thanks for your thoughts on swords.   I have a feeling you're right about the forces of fire if not actually King Egg manipulating certain people and things to certain places for future development.  I don't think DS needed a glamour, only to be hidden.   It has crossed my mind that the Targaryens moved these swords among their fighters for specific purposes, primarily the wielders' fighting prowess.  I'm not sure what happened with Bloodraven.   Not that he wasn't an excellent fighter, but he didn't yearn for or even seem to particularly want DS.   He was comfortable in his skin and identity.   He didn't need a sword to advertise who he was.  It's just a curious choice in my estimation.  Visenya was said to dabble in the dark arts as did Maegor and Daemon if I'm not mistaken.   DS seems to belong to the Targ sorcerers.  

The deal with Tywin creating his own VS sword as opposed to simply purchasing one of the lesser house swords may be nothing more than the thought never occurred to him or maybe he had some other VS pieces when added to a smaller sword could make a big ass greatsword?  Tywin had an ego as big as all outdoors.  OK and WW are fine specimens but he made absolutely sure the bigger sword stayed in the Lannister family.  I do think the size of this particular sword mattered to Tywin.  Then again perhaps he did make offers on smaller pieces and was refused by all.   It could have been an exceptional thing to own something Tywin Lannister did not.   I can just see the 3 houses, Maesters, the Celtigars and the owners of the swords we know about all getting together at Storm Con every year to laugh at him.  

[Seams]

Above the hearth hung a broken longsword and a battered oaken shield, its paint cracked and flaking. (ASoS, Sansa VI)

This is what Sansa sees when she enters Petyr Baelish's no-name ancestral keep. He suggests his titles should be "Lord of Sheepshit and Master of the Drearfort." Maybe it's just GRRM confirming that Littlefinger really is the grandson of a sellsword, but maybe it's Chekov's gun . . .

[Curled Finger]

On 2/24/2017 at 3:32 PM, Seams said:

Above the hearth hung a broken longsword and a battered oaken shield, its paint cracked and flaking. (ASoS, Sansa VI)

This is what Sansa sees when she enters Petyr Baelish's no-name ancestral keep. He suggests his titles should be "Lord of Sheepshit and Master of the Drearfort." Maybe it's just GRRM confirming that Littlefinger really is the grandson of a sellsword, but maybe it's Chekov's gun . . .

Seams, I couldn't stand anymore intrigue with regard to Frickin Little Finger.   However, you gotta pay attention to a broken sword hung above the hearth.   Now then, if this sword is among the missing have you any idea how we could get back to the hood to take a better look at it?  I take it you are enjoying the line of thinking that a sellsword may have absconded with Orphan-Maker?    

[Seams]

7 hours ago, Curled Finger said:

Seams, I couldn't stand anymore intrigue with regard to Frickin Little Finger.   However, you gotta pay attention to a broken sword hung above the hearth.   Now then, if this sword is among the missing have you any idea how we could get back to the hood to take a better look at it?  I take it you are enjoying the line of thinking that a sellsword may have absconded with Orphan-Maker?    

I hadn't matched this up with a specific missing VS sword. Orphan Maker would be a perfect match for Littlefinger, but wouldn't it be a delicious irony if the man who is helping Sansa to be a better liar had a "broken" Truth at the center of his dreary home? (I am always searching for Truth.)

Rehab would depend on the nature of the sword's breakage. If the blade is snapped in half, that's a difficult break to repair. If the hilt has come loose, that could be rigged with a make-shift repair by someone other than a smith, I would think.